[CITTERN] Re: plucked bass
Hi Brad, You are right - there are many, many references to a mandora as mandore and vice versa. It has been and continues to be an area of much confusion. I personally started differentiating them (small mandore, large mandora) after reading Donald Gill's plea to do so in the Lute Society Journal (or Lute News - can't recall the year or issue). To make matters worse, the large German mandora is also known as a gallichon, itself having various spellings. And to cap it all, on my Flowers of the Forest CD I refered to my small mandore as a mandour (for a dour man). I wouldn't take a museum attribution as gospel...they can often be wrong. I suggest following the gospel according to Gill. Rob On 27/03/2008, Brad McEwen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rob: Tht's news to me. I have always read that the instruments referred to as mandoras, (including the instrument that you call the mandore) are what you call the small treble'like lute . The Royal Ontario Museum has the small treble lute listed as a mandora. So does the Broadside Band, Ron McFarlane, and otherrecordings. I don't know how many books I have seen over the years that call mandores mandoras. Usually it is stated that mandora is the Italian name and mandore is the French. Every book I have every read on the subject has stated that the terms mandore, mandora and mandola were interchangeable for the same instrument that you have recorded with. What was the period for this German Mandora? The period of usage of the term mandora in the context that I know was the Renaissance. Has some newe reseaarch brought something to light that will cause all previous books on the subject to now be incorrect and outdated? All museums will have to recatalogue and rename the mandoras in their collections? Although I do not, as previously stated, have academic credentials, I feell that I'm reasonably well informed on this subject and I ahve never heard of this lower pitched German mandora. Brad *Rob MacKillop [EMAIL PROTECTED]* wrote: Sorry, Brad, but you are not quite correct. I recorded music for the mandore, not the mandora. The former is the small treble-like lute, four or five courses, while the latter is a large German lute of various pitches and numbers of strings. The mandora in E was the same tuning as the modern guitar, but more often appeared down a tone in D, and often again in eight courses. Rob -- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: plucked bass
And may also account for Wagner's 'lute' in Die Meistersinger. The opening notes are a rising arpeggio of EADGBE - a mandora in E? Rob On 27/03/2008, Frank Nordberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Martyn Hodgson wrote: The 18thC Mandora (aka Gallichon - various cognates) was also tuned in E as well as D. This of course means that the modern guitar tuning was already common - or at least fairly well known - as a lute tuning before it was used for the guitar. Among other things that gives a whole new perspective to the late 19th/early 20th C. German Wandervogel-laute. Usually it's been shrugged off as just a silly attempt to give the guitar some fake pedigree by making it look like a lute. Now it turns out a virtually identical instrument existed even as early as the 17th century. Is there any evidence of such an instrument from he early 19th century? The large continuo gallichon was tuned in A (ie with first course as the top line of the bass clef) so 886 cm is by no means too large. Sorry I misunderstood Barber there. I thought he meant an octave higher. Despite Barber's statement that the Schorn is the only extant large galichon in A, there are, in fact, a number of others Is there any evidence that Tielke made such instruments? The Mandora/Gallichon should, however, not be confused with the 18thC Italian lute Could you tell us a bit more about the difference? The description you give seems to fit the galichon fairly well. My view is that these are, indeed, simply continuations of the old lute (in nominal G or A depending on local pitch) and played accompanied from staff notation (like the late archlute of Dalla Casa) but without the complication (for amatuers) of the extra open basses. I would assume that professionals would also occasionally prefer this more portable alternative to the arhclute and theorbe. I'm currently developing a paper on this. Please let us know when and where you publish! Frank Nordberg http://www.musicaviva.com http://stores.ebay.com/Nordbergs-Music-Store?refid=store To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[CITTERN] Re: plucked bass
I still think that an 18th C Mandola would be the ticket. I don't know if anyone makes them, but there are a lot of roundback short scale Italian made Mandocellos that are pretty close. The french piper Jean Pierre Rasle living in the UK used to have one in his ceilidh group, the Cock Bull Band.He did a Cd of entirely very traditional French music for babpipes called Cornemeuses and the tracks using mandocello accompaniement were my faves. Very woody sounding. low pitch. Not an axpensive isntrument, but a good sound. Brad Frank Nordberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doc Rossi wrote: Yes, that would be perfect, but did it survive into the 18th century? Could you point me to some evidence? Doc, I think I already gave you this link but just in case: http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/zist_pandora.htm There are several references to the panodora (it was usually written with a p rather than b in German) during the 18th century there. Especially intersting in here is perhaps this paragraph: Am Ende des 17. Jahrhunderts befand sich die Pandora unter den Continuoinstrumenten des Hamburger Opernorchesters (Kleefeld 1899/1900, S. 233ff.), und noch in der ersten Hälfte des 18. Jahrhunderts gehörten zur fürstlichen Hofkapelle in Weißenfels zwei Kammer-Pandoristen: Pantaleon Hebestreit und Joseph Doberozinsky (Werner 1911, S. 68 und 71). Rough translation: At the end of the 17th Century there was a Pandora among the continuo instruments of the Hamburg Opera Orchestra (1899/1900 Kleefeld, p. 233ff.), and as late as the first half of the 18th Century the Court Orchestra at Weißenfels had two Chamber Pandorists: Pantaleon Hebestreit and Joseph Doberozinsky (Werner 1911, p. 68 and 71). One page I overlooked at Michel's site was this: http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/zist_pandor_quellen.htm It's a chronological list of bandora references in Germany. Lots of 18th C. references there - there's even a quote from Mattheson. And there's a 1737 continuo tutorial (David Kellner) that specifically lists bandora as one of the continuo instruments. One of the references is to an actual bandora from c. 1750: http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/ZISTER/freiberg_0171.htm (Digression: note that this has a floating bridge and a 460 mm scale. Does that remind anybody of any other 18th century instruments?) Frank Nordberg http://www.musicaviva.com http://stores.ebay.com/Nordbergs-Music-Store?refid=store To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. --
[CITTERN] Re: plucked bass
I'm not sure which instrument you're talking about Brad. Do you have pix or links? I know JPR but I don't know which disk you're referring to. The history of the bagpipe one? On Mar 25, 2008, at 12:41 PM, Brad McEwen wrote: I still think that an 18th C Mandola would be the ticket. I don't know if anyone makes them, but there are a lot of roundback short scale Italian made Mandocellos that are pretty close. The french piper Jean Pierre Rasle living in the UK used to have one in his ceilidh group, the Cock Bull Band.He did a Cd of entirely very traditional French music for babpipes called Cornemeuses and the tracks using mandocello accompaniement were my faves. Very woody sounding. low pitch. Not an axpensive isntrument, but a good sound. Brad Frank Nordberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doc Rossi wrote: Yes, that would be perfect, but did it survive into the 18th century? Could you point me to some evidence? Doc, I think I already gave you this link but just in case: http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/zist_pandora.htm There are several references to the panodora (it was usually written with a p rather than b in German) during the 18th century there. Especially intersting in here is perhaps this paragraph: Am Ende des 17. Jahrhunderts befand sich die Pandora unter den Continuoinstrumenten des Hamburger Opernorchesters (Kleefeld 1899/1900, S. 233ff.), und noch in der ersten Hälfte des 18. Jahrhunderts gehörten zur fürstlichen Hofkapelle in Weißenfels zwei Kammer-Pandoristen: Pantaleon Hebestreit und Joseph Doberozinsky (Werner 1911, S. 68 und 71). Rough translation: At the end of the 17th Century there was a Pandora among the continuo instruments of the Hamburg Opera Orchestra (1899/1900 Kleefeld, p. 233ff.), and as late as the first half of the 18th Century the Court Orchestra at Weißenfels had two Chamber Pandorists: Pantaleon Hebestreit and Joseph Doberozinsky (Werner 1911, p. 68 and 71). One page I overlooked at Michel's site was this: http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/zist_pandor_quellen.htm It's a chronological list of bandora references in Germany. Lots of 18th C. references there - there's even a quote from Mattheson. And there's a 1737 continuo tutorial (David Kellner) that specifically lists bandora as one of the continuo instruments. One of the references is to an actual bandora from c. 1750: http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/ZISTER/freiberg_0171.htm (Digression: note that this has a floating bridge and a 460 mm scale. Does that remind anybody of any other 18th century instruments?) Frank Nordberg http://www.musicaviva.com http://stores.ebay.com/Nordbergs-Music-Store?refid=store To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. --
[CITTERN] Re: plucked bass
Frank Nordberg wrote: .. I'm sure I've seen them with more regular lute propotions though - just can't remember where and when. .. I really have to learn to think before writing! This instrument is of course the gallichon (aka mandore), perhaps *the* most obvious portable continuo instrument for German and other Central-European 18th C. music. Frank To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: plucked bass
Brad McEwen wrote: I still think that an 18th C Mandola would be the ticket. I don't know if anyone makes them, but there are a lot of roundback short scale Italian made Mandocellos that are pretty close. There wasn't any mandocello as we know it back in the mid 18th century. The mandolin back then was basically just a scaled down lute. A scaled up version of a scaled down version of a lute would be ... a lute. ;-) However, the 17th/18th century six course lute *is* an interesting option no matter what name it goes by. It's a common belief that the large lutes with extra bass strings completely replaced the old renaissance lute but that may be a truth with modifications. Brescianello published a collection of music for a six course lute around the middle of the 18th century. He called the instrument a colascione (although it doesn't seem to have much in common with the regular three course colascione) and apparently it had six single strings tuned like a modern guitar EADGBE. Usually we think of this instrument as purely Italian but Brescianello was connected in some way to the court of the Duke of Württemberg at some time during the first few decades of the 18th C., so there may be a German/Central European connection. There is a surviving instrument of that kind that certainly has a German connection. It was built by Johannes Schorn in Salzburg in 1688. Barber and Harris are making a copy of it and you can view an example at: http://www.lutesandguitars.co.uk/htm/cat08.htm (at the bottom of the page) It's got a relatively long neck and small body, making it look as much like a colascione as a standard lute. I'm sure I've seen them with more regular lute propotions though - just can't remember where and when. I'm a bit curious about the tuning mentioned there. The renaissance A tuning seems awfully high for an 886 mm scale. Barber and Harris mentions that Godfrey Finger had a similar instrument, only slightly larger. Yet another German connection... --- Right now I'm wondering if we really know anything about 17th and 18th century stringed instruments at all. This little excercise of ours has already unveiled more than enough information to completely rewrite the official history. Worst of all, nothing of this is new information, it's information that's been ignored until now. Frank Nordberg http://www.musicaviva.com http://stores.ebay.com/Nordbergs-Music-Store?refid=store To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: plucked bass
I think the tuning for the Mandora was a tone lower than modern guitar, plus pitch may have been lower as well - from one to 3 semitones. You're absolutely right about information being ignored - that's always upset me. On Mar 25, 2008, at 9:10 PM, Frank Nordberg wrote: Brad McEwen wrote: I still think that an 18th C Mandola would be the ticket. I don't know if anyone makes them, but there are a lot of roundback short scale Italian made Mandocellos that are pretty close. There wasn't any mandocello as we know it back in the mid 18th century. The mandolin back then was basically just a scaled down lute. A scaled up version of a scaled down version of a lute would be ... a lute. ;-) However, the 17th/18th century six course lute *is* an interesting option no matter what name it goes by. It's a common belief that the large lutes with extra bass strings completely replaced the old renaissance lute but that may be a truth with modifications. Brescianello published a collection of music for a six course lute around the middle of the 18th century. He called the instrument a colascione (although it doesn't seem to have much in common with the regular three course colascione) and apparently it had six single strings tuned like a modern guitar EADGBE. Usually we think of this instrument as purely Italian but Brescianello was connected in some way to the court of the Duke of Württemberg at some time during the first few decades of the 18th C., so there may be a German/Central European connection. There is a surviving instrument of that kind that certainly has a German connection. It was built by Johannes Schorn in Salzburg in 1688. Barber and Harris are making a copy of it and you can view an example at: http://www.lutesandguitars.co.uk/htm/cat08.htm (at the bottom of the page) It's got a relatively long neck and small body, making it look as much like a colascione as a standard lute. I'm sure I've seen them with more regular lute propotions though - just can't remember where and when. I'm a bit curious about the tuning mentioned there. The renaissance A tuning seems awfully high for an 886 mm scale. Barber and Harris mentions that Godfrey Finger had a similar instrument, only slightly larger. Yet another German connection... --- Right now I'm wondering if we really know anything about 17th and 18th century stringed instruments at all. This little excercise of ours has already unveiled more than enough information to completely rewrite the official history. Worst of all, nothing of this is new information, it's information that's been ignored until now. Frank Nordberg http://www.musicaviva.com http://stores.ebay.com/Nordbergs-Music-Store?refid=store To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: plucked bass
Doc: Is it meant to be historically accurate? If not, what about a Mandobass or Mandocello? Brad Doc Rossi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm working on a project involving mid-18th-century dance music mostly from France, Belgium and Austria. I'd like to have a non-keyboard plucked instrument in the bass. What are my options besides theorbo, archlute, harp? Mandora and Colascione come to mind - is there anything else? Thank you, Doc To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. --
[CITTERN] Re: plucked bass
Hey Brad - Yes, it should be from the period. On Mar 24, 2008, at 1:19 PM, Brad McEwen wrote: Doc: Is it meant to be historically accurate? If not, what about a Mandobass or Mandocello? Brad Doc Rossi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm working on a project involving mid-18th-century dance music mostly from France, Belgium and Austria. I'd like to have a non-keyboard plucked instrument in the bass. What are my options besides theorbo, archlute, harp? Mandora and Colascione come to mind - is there anything else? Thank you, Doc To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. --
[CITTERN] Re: plucked bass
Frank: Intersting. thesmaller instrument next to it looks like a Guittarr Allemande, but it appears to have a fixed bridge and a more modern stylke headstock. Same basic body shape,though. Brad Frank Nordberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doc Rossi wrote: I'm working on a project involving mid-18th-century dance music mostly from France, Belgium and Austria. I'd like to have a non-keyboard plucked instrument in the bass. What are my options besides theorbo, archlute, harp? Mandora and Colascione come to mind - is there anything else? How about something like this one? http://www.musicaviva.com/instruments/gallery/display.html?serienr=2389 Larger picture: http://www.pictures-clipart-graphics.com/files/co/coste-bs-360-bg.jpg As far as I'm aware of it's the only known eaxample of an 18th century bass guitar. I'm not sure if it date back as far as *mid* 18th century though and it was heavily modified during the 19th century so it's hard to say how it originally looked. --- You also have the theorbo-cittern, such as: http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/ZISTER/0632.htm It was known in Sachsen at the time you mention. Similar instruments were also used in Flandern and in France and possibly elsewhere although I can't find any info as to when. --- According to prof. Andreas Michel, the pandora was alive an well in Germany at the middle of the 18th. c: http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/zist_pandora.htm --- Michel's amazing site also includes a seven course cistre from 1772: http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/ZISTER/0617.htm According to the tuning overview at the site: http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/zist_stimmung.htm the lowest course was tuned all the way down to E. Not sure if that is low enough for you and besides, with a scale length of only 47.5 cm it can't have had much power down there. --- The site also has a c. 1800 seven-string cittern with a G at the bottom: http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/ZISTER/0621.htm and the tuning overview mentions a few c. 1800 Thüringer citterns with a range down into the capital letter octave. Same reservations as the previous ones. --- I'm not sure how low a bass do you need. Both the six course guitar and the six course lute would go deeper or at least as deep as the harp you mentioned. Both could be regarded as authentic to the period even though it is a bit early for the former and a bit late for the latter. --- How about the theorbo-guitar? Can't remember if that was 17th or 18th C. --- I think they had some fairly big hammered dulcimers in central Europe at that time. Can't say for sure. --- Finally there are all those psalteries and scheitholz/hummel style isntruments that later became known as zithers. There probably weren't any with basses that early but it may be worth checking. Frank Nordberg http://www.musicaviva.com http://stores.ebay.com/Nordbergs-Music-Store?refid=store To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. --
[CITTERN] Re: plucked bass
Yes, that would be perfect, but did it survive into the 18th century? Could you point me to some evidence? On Mar 25, 2008, at 1:48 AM, James A Stimson wrote: Dear Doc: How about a bandora? Aren't there some accounts of the Germans playing it with a plectrum for baroque continuo? Cheers, Jim Doc Rossi [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: cittern list cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu shing.com cc: Subject: [CITTERN] plucked bass 03/24/2008 06:07 AM I'm working on a project involving mid-18th-century dance music mostly from France, Belgium and Austria. I'd like to have a non-keyboard plucked instrument in the bass. What are my options besides theorbo, archlute, harp? Mandora and Colascione come to mind - is there anything else? Thank you, Doc To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
