Re: First impressions of Neo1973
Hello, I've just done a fast sizeasy comparison: http://www.sizeasy.com/page/comp/1840 And, yes, the Neo1973 is big! 2007/5/16, Tim Newsom [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Tue, 15 May 2007 22:15, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 15 May 2007, Tigran Zakoyan wrote: Jason Elwell wrote: I dont know whats more sad... You creating a paperdoll of an OpenMoko, or the fact that I downloaded it and made one for myself! LOL! Me too :) BTW, can't agree 1973 is too big. It just fits the size of my QTEKs110, which size's been really handy for me two years I use it. Not to mention the difference in functionality :) Me three. Next to my Sidekick, the Neo is petite. It's all relative. M Could you, or someone who just happens to have both, post a picture containing them side by side and edge on for comparison? I figured it would be about the same dimensionally (HxWxD) as the sidekick. Is it smaller? Thinner? Wider? Shorter? --Tim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- J. Manrique López de la Fuente http://www.jsmanrique.net msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED] jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: First impressions of Neo1973
Nice Jose, I added the Sidekick3 dimensions... http://www.sizeasy.com/page/comp/1842 -Pete On 16/05/07, Jose Manrique Lopez de la Fuente [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, I've just done a fast sizeasy comparison: http://www.sizeasy.com/page/comp/1840 And, yes, the Neo1973 is big! 2007/5/16, Tim Newsom [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Tue, 15 May 2007 22:15, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 15 May 2007, Tigran Zakoyan wrote: Jason Elwell wrote: I dont know whats more sad... You creating a paperdoll of an OpenMoko, or the fact that I downloaded it and made one for myself! LOL! Me too :) BTW, can't agree 1973 is too big. It just fits the size of my QTEKs110, which size's been really handy for me two years I use it. Not to mention the difference in functionality :) Me three. Next to my Sidekick, the Neo is petite. It's all relative. M Could you, or someone who just happens to have both, post a picture containing them side by side and edge on for comparison? I figured it would be about the same dimensionally (HxWxD) as the sidekick. Is it smaller? Thinner? Wider? Shorter? --Tim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- J. Manrique López de la Fuente http://www.jsmanrique.net msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED] jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Few comments after reading Wiki
Hello, First of all, I will introduce myself. I was creating such projects like Gammu and Gammu+ mainly for synchronizing informations from Nokia phones (non Symbian) with PC using Nokia prioprietary protocols, but also for some AT and Alcatel devices (including manufacturer commands and protocols). Currently I'm searching for new interesting task for me (for fun, but also as full time job, because I'm ending studies). I don't have 350 USD and I won't probably have OpenMoko connected hardware phone (now). My comments after reading Wiki: 1. I hope, that there will be made SAR tests and results will be very low 2. it could be good to have such phone with GSM/UMTS switching (even without all data standards like EDGE, ) 3. you can use quite easy Gammu/Gammu+ sources (or at least source from similiar Gnokii) for making import tool from Nokia/other phones. Additionaly in Gammu/Gammu+ you have some interesting snippets for decoding MMS files and many other. Maybe it will be usefull. 4. I quess, many people are really waiting for phone with GSM/hardware monitoring functions (something like in Nokia netmonitor functionality). If you will make some tool for displaying this data in one place, you will receive millions of hungry people waiting for it... 5. hav developers though about creating it on kind of x86 compatible platform ? I know, it could be more difficult to create energy efficient device, but having PC in pocket (with ability to running dos, windows after changing SD card) would be more than excellent Pozdrowienia/Best Regards -- Marcin Wiacek (www.gammu.org, www.mwiacek.com, I'm looking for a job) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: USB host connector? (was Re: Battery powered charging/USB hub)
On Monday 14 May 2007 10:57, Hans van der Merwe wrote: Does anyone know how much work it will be to get the USB host working? I will need it to drive a webcam for one of my projects. Will this be possible? I had the idea of perhaps hooking up car mounted webcam(s) to the Neo to use for parking assisst, dead angles, etc, and, of course the obligatory USB reader for music (changing a memcard beneath a battery in city traffic conditions is like an F1 tire change :). USB powering is an issue there, but I think perhaps a v2 Car Kit could solve this (if you already have a car charger, it could provide power to the USB devices as well, if the voltage is different, it just needs an extra regulator). ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Disconnected LCD
Will the phone still work - bootup and function as normal - if I disconnect the LCD? It for an experimental, low power, vacuum environment. E-Mail disclaimer: http://www.sunspace.co.za/emaildisclaimer.htm ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Few comments after reading Wiki
Hello, One additional hadrware suggestion: 6.microswitch for real hardware blocking flashing (to prevent changing firmware) Pozdrowienia/Best Regards -- Marcin Wiacek (www.gammu.org, www.mwiacek.com, I'm looking for a job) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Few comments after reading Wiki
Marcin Wiacek wrote: 6.microswitch for real hardware blocking flashing (to prevent changing firmware) Flash protection is planned for the later this year aka getting everything right this time model. The idea is to have an emergency/recovery u-boot in a separate Flash chip, which can be activated if the regular boot process got broken. This recovery Flash should never need to be changed, so making it easy to do so isn't a particularly high priority. (As in soldering iron instead of switch.) Our current hardware doesn't allow Flash protection to be done sensibly :-( So software/user input can in fact brick a machine to the point where the only recovery possible is through JTAG, e.g., with the debug board. - Werner -- _ / Werner Almesberger, Buenos Aires, Argentina [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /_http://www.almesberger.net// ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Durability of the Neo1973?
Am Mittwoch, 16. Mai 2007 02:03 schrieb polz: Can anyone here suggest an HTC phone which can be bought in Europe for less than $400 and can run linux well enough to dial out and somehow connect to a PC ? apropos connect. The acx100_cs works since yesterday, so wifi can be used on Blueangel now (not only on the Universal). Oleg. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Few comments after reading Wiki
Werner Almesberger wrote: Our current hardware doesn't allow Flash protection to be done sensibly :-( So software/user input can in fact brick a machine to the point where the only recovery possible is through JTAG, e.g., with the debug board. I'm not saying this isn't a nice feature. Why should a phone be better in this respect than a PC? If you want to, you can brick a PC, if you've got root, to the state where it will need the flash removed and re-flashed. Surely this is a toolchain, and OS thing, rather than hardware? Permissions are set so that users can't touch the flash in question. Maybe even a patch to the driver for the flash to completely block write access to blocks specified on the bootloader command line. For September end users, you might want to go further - you can't change the bootloader params (to disable the flash blocking), or install non-signed bootloaders or kernels if you don't input a code (displayed on the bootloader) to some website, which then logs the fact that you've done it, and supplies you a key to use it at your own risk. If you've not downloaded this key, FIC fixes bricked phones free, if not, then they don't. Of course, those skilled in the art of patching the running kernel can get round this, but there should be no great reason not to use the stock bootloader and blessed kernels. (Several people unconnected to FIC are also given codes that they can assemble to a working private key for FIC to enable them to unlock phones in the event of the FIC website going away) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: First impressions of Neo1973
Thanks, that helps quite a bit. But if that's accurate, the neo is not that big. The sidekick 3 is slightly smaller and thinner than a sidekick 2 (my current phone) and the neo is considerably smaller than that... Maybe its large to someone who uses a flip phone or set616 type phone. To me, it seems perfect. In comparison, the Ipod phone is only about 2/3 or 3/4 the thickness (yeah, that a large gap.. But hey its eyeballed) and only a tiny fraction shorter. The widths are pretty much the same. --Tim On Wed, 16 May 2007 2:38, Peter A Trotter wrote: Nice Jose, I added the Sidekick3 dimensions... http://www.sizeasy.com/page/comp/1842 -Pete On 16/05/07, Jose Manrique Lopez de la Fuente [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, I've just done a fast sizeasy comparison: http://www.sizeasy.com/page/comp/1840 And, yes, the Neo1973 is big! 2007/5/16, Tim Newsom [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Tue, 15 May 2007 22:15, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 15 May 2007, Tigran Zakoyan wrote: Jason Elwell wrote: I dont know whats more sad... You creating a paperdoll of an OpenMoko, or the fact that I downloaded it and made one for myself! LOL! Me too :) BTW, can't agree 1973 is too big. It just fits the size of my QTEKs110, which size's been really handy for me two years I use it. Not to mention the difference in functionality :) Me three. Next to my Sidekick, the Neo is petite. It's all relative. M Could you, or someone who just happens to have both, post a picture containing them side by side and edge on for comparison? I figured it would be about the same dimensionally (HxWxD) as the sidekick. Is it smaller? Thinner? Wider? Shorter? --Tim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- J. Manrique López de la Fuente http://www.jsmanrique.net msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED] jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community --Tim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: accelerometer in neo?
Does this mean we can solder one of these in and turn our moko into an enhanced Wii remote? :P ~Bradley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It was ~$14. Dirt cheap for what it does. If what people say about wasted space inside the neo is true then I'm hoping to cram one in there when I get my phone. Maybe some mems rate sensors too. Now that's _my_ kind of augmented GPS! ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: firefox for mobiles
Myk Melez wrote: David Ford wrote: Even with tuning, FF is a dastard piggy. I've tested things with FF. Start it with no history, no recovered session. Load up digg.com and do nothing. Just let it sit there. It will sit there and slowly grow and grow and grow. The caching isn't the problem, that's tunable. The problem is the memory leaks -- all the valgrind reports turned into moz teams (and ignored). I tried this over the weekend, creating a fresh profile for Firefox, starting it up, loading digg.com into it, and then letting it sit for a day. Memory consumption stayed constant. I'm using the latest nightly version of Firefox 2.0 (Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.4pre) Gecko/20070513 BonEcho/2.0.0.4pre) on Ubuntu Linux 6.10. -myk ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community I also tried doing this, but I got mixed results. Firefox 2.0.0.2, minus all the extensions and themes, would have consistent memory use sometimes, but not always. I did notice, however, that I could only get the memory to start leaking when using certain sites, digg being the primary one. The rate of the leak was quite substantial, and I imagine that the site's scripting or embedded flash/media content may be at least partially responsible. I had honestly never used digg before this test, and all of the other sites I use (like google, slashdot, wikipedia, and many others) have never caused me problems when leaving them open for days. However, this discussion is entirely off-topic at this point. The mainstream x86 FF release is not in any way a suitable candidate for the openmoko. The neo uses a different architecture. If a derivation or port of FF/Mozilla code is used on the neo, then an existing memory leak is of little concern - it's open source, submit a patch. ~Bradley ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: First impressions of Neo1973
Christopher Tokarczyk wrote: not having a neo yet I can't comment on how it actually performs now, but I just think it's worth pointing out that this is still very very early. personally, i'm not too worried because i have faith that once the phones are out and the community at large has a crack at them, things will improve. that said, it is hard to be patient because this thing seems so cool ;-) Why do we keep saying it's still early? The phone was due in March, and it's now not going to ship (if we're lucky) until June. It's not early, it's late! Yes, the hardware has had issues, and yes we want it right, but the software should have been ready to go in March when it was scheduled to be released. Everyone keeps saying that it doesn't matter that this thing is going to be released around the iPhone's release - but just try and get some PR during the iPhone's rollout. Timing is everything, and in June all eyes will be on Apple. Say what you want, but this latest ship was just another shot in the foot towards the product's success. Dunc ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: First impressions of Neo1973
Why do we keep saying it's still early? The phone was due in March, and it's now not going to ship (if we're lucky) until June. It's not early, it's late! Yes, the hardware has had issues, and yes we want it right, but the software should have been ready to go in March when it was scheduled to be released. Everyone keeps saying that it doesn't matter that this thing is For a mass market phone I agree that it is late - and to be precise, it was announced for January: http://www.openmoko.com/files/ OpenMoko_20061107.pdf But for a really unique open developer platform it is never too late. going to be released around the iPhone's release - but just try and get some PR during the iPhone's rollout. Timing is everything, and in June all eyes will be on Apple. Say what you want, but this latest ship was just another shot in the foot towards the product's success. That depends on whether you believe this iPhone killer positioning does matter at all. I think what more matters is whether Apple opens the iPhone or not. Apple appears to be undecided themselves: http://www.macrumors.com/2007/05/11/apple-still-considering-3rd-party- iphone-app-development/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: accelerometer in neo?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ST makes a 3 axis mems accelerometers that speak SPI [and I2C]. VTI has I2C only and SPI ones. I have the SPI/I2C one [LIS3LV02DL] made by ST but I don't have it working yet. I'm still in awe of how small it is -- much smaller than a tic-tac candy. http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Criteria?Ref=197587Site=USCat=35783228 http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/ds/12094/lis3lv02dl.pdf It was ~$14. Dirt cheap for what it does. If what people say about wasted space inside the neo is true then I'm hoping to cram one in there when I get my phone. Maybe some mems rate sensors too. Now that's _my_ kind of augmented GPS! Don't forget the triaxial magnetometer! ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Few comments after reading Wiki
Ian Stirling wrote: Why should a phone be better in this respect than a PC? Well, on the PC, you don't change the BIOS very often, if ever. Furthermore, the BIOS is in storage that your system doesn't usually access either. On the Neo, your BIOS is the boot loader, so every time you upgrade the boot loader, you get a chance to brick your system. Furthermore, basically all non-removable storage is just one single Flash area, so the driver writing your data files is just a few bits away from bricking the device. There are some protections, but software is very limited in what it can do. Also, neither the MCU nor the Flash memory have any complementary protection mechanisms. (In the next device, also the MCU will have some reasonably good protection against the most common forms of accidental overwriting.) And no, I don't think we want to get into DRM ;-) - Werner -- _ / Werner Almesberger, Buenos Aires, Argentina [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /_http://www.almesberger.net// ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Few comments after reading Wiki
Hello, First of all, I will introduce myself. I was creating such projects like Gammu and Gammu+ mainly for synchronizing informations from Nokia phones (non Symbian) with PC using Nokia prioprietary protocols, but also for some AT and Alcatel devices (including manufacturer commands and protocols). Currently I'm searching for new interesting task for me (for fun, but also as full time job, because I'm ending studies). I don't have 350 USD and I won't probably have OpenMoko connected hardware phone (now). My comments after reading Wiki: 1. I hope, that there will be made SAR tests and results will be very low 2. it could be good to have such phone with GSM/UMTS switching (even without all data standards like EDGE, ) 3. you can use quite easy Gammu/Gammu+ sources (or at least source from similiar Gnokii) for making import tool from Nokia/other phones. Additionaly in Gammu/Gammu+ you have some interesting snippets for decoding MMS files and many other. Maybe it will be usefull. 4. I quess, many people are really waiting for phone with GSM/hardware monitoring functions (something like in Nokia netmonitor functionality). If you will make some tool for displaying this data in one place, you will receive millions of hungry people waiting for it... 5. hav developers though about creating it on kind of x86 compatible platform ? I know, it could be more difficult to create energy efficient device, but having PC in pocket (with ability to running dos, windows after changing SD card) would be more than excellent Pozdrowienia/Best Regards -- Marcin Wiacek (www.gammu.org, www.mwiacek.com, I'm looking for a job) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Few comments after reading Wiki
Werner Almesberger wrote: Ian Stirling wrote: Why should a phone be better in this respect than a PC? Well, on the PC, you don't change the BIOS very often, if ever. Furthermore, the BIOS is in storage that your system doesn't usually access either. True, of course, though root can still brick it. On the Neo, your BIOS is the boot loader, so every time you upgrade the boot loader, you get a chance to brick your system. Furthermore, basically all non-removable storage is just one single Flash area, so the driver writing your data files is just a few bits away from bricking the device. Sure, kernel bugs can kill your system. There are some protections, but software is very limited in what it can do. Also, neither the MCU nor the Flash memory have any complementary protection mechanisms. (In the next device, also the MCU will have some reasonably good protection against the most common forms of accidental overwriting.) And no, I don't think we want to get into DRM ;-) I really think you do. I want to be able to give this phone to my (hypothetical) employees. I do not want skilled lazy, employees able to - for example - edit their GPS logs which corroberate the inspections they are required to do. This is _not_ DRM that stops the owner of the phone doing stuff. It's DRM that stops users of the phone that may or may not be authorised users from doing stuff. Think of it as a BIOS password on steroids. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Few comments after reading Wiki
Why should a phone be better in this respect than a PC? [...] There are some protections, but software is very limited in what it can do. Also, neither the MCU nor the Flash memory have any complementary protection mechanisms. (In the next device, also the MCU will have some reasonably good protection against the most common forms of accidental overwriting.) And no, I don't think we want to get into DRM ;-) My 2 cents: I was thinking, that protection should make, that software run on device/connected to it PC can't make it brick. Nothing about DRM. In worst case device should start with default parameters and without additional apps. But definitely shouldn't be dead. Second chip isn't good idea. IMHO, the best is separating memory to two phisical chips and have main software in first (with protection) and additional software/HDD inside second (or protection should block writing to chip below specified address). Pozdrowienia/Best Regards -- Marcin Wiacek (www.gammu.org, www.mwiacek.com, I'm looking for a job) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: accelerometer in neo?
It would mean there would be much more interactive options for games running on the phone though. Like pinball, or driving games. A golf game where you swing the phone maybe? Matt -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bradley Hook Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 10:53 AM To: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: accelerometer in neo? Does this mean we can solder one of these in and turn our moko into an enhanced Wii remote? :P ~Bradley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It was ~$14. Dirt cheap for what it does. If what people say about wasted space inside the neo is true then I'm hoping to cram one in there when I get my phone. Maybe some mems rate sensors too. Now that's _my_ kind of augmented GPS! ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: accelerometer in neo?
In addition to an accelerometer, the wii remote has a 1 megapixel camera for sensing the position of two infrared leds at each end of the sensor bar which is placed above or below your TV. The accelerometer measures motion and orientation, whereas the camera is used for direct pointing / cursor movement. (Any game/app that tells you to point the wiimote at the screen) Without a camera on the neo, you will not be able to emulate that part of the wiimote functionality. It might be possible to emulate the nunchuck in some way(which doesn't use a camera, but has a thumbstick and two buttons in addition to it's accelerometer), but it definitely couldn't fully emulate the remote. Hans L On 5/16/07, Bradley Hook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does this mean we can solder one of these in and turn our moko into an enhanced Wii remote? :P ~Bradley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It was ~$14. Dirt cheap for what it does. If what people say about wasted space inside the neo is true then I'm hoping to cram one in there when I get my phone. Maybe some mems rate sensors too. Now that's _my_ kind of augmented GPS! ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Few comments after reading Wiki
Ian Stirling wrote: Werner Almesberger wrote: And no, I don't think we want to get into DRM ;-) I really think you do. No, you don't. OPEN-Moko. You start throwing any sort of DRM in these things and you will lose much of the community support that the moko needs. I want to be able to give this phone to my (hypothetical) employees. I do not want skilled lazy, employees able to - for example - edit their GPS logs which corroberate the inspections they are required to do. If they are skilled, then they are going to be able to circumvent any kind of protection measures you put in place. Tip: get better hypothetical employees. This is _not_ DRM that stops the owner of the phone doing stuff. Any DRM hampers the owner from doing want they want. No DRM can stop the owner, there is always a way around it. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Durability of the Neo1973?
On May 16, 2007, at 2:48 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sean wrote: Most all the parts are now at the factory. The May 10th run has been delayed about two weeks because of last minute supply coordination issues. But I'm still being told that we're on to have devices this month. That's cool. No problem with waiting a few more weeks. Thanks for the understanding. This stuff is really stressing me out. We're all so anxious to get Free these damn phones so the real fun can begin. We were all beginning to think the production run was finished and you guys were there at the factory just rolling around on big piles of them. Hehe...oh don't I wish :-) Well, maybe that was just me thinking that. Seriously Sean, we all appreciate the hard work of the Core Team. I appreciate your kind words. These past few months have been really hard on all of us. Comments like these just give us the needed energy to keep pushing. We'll get there guys. I promise! -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Durability of the Neo1973?
On May 16, 2007, at 8:03 AM, polz wrote: On Tuesday 15 May 2007 18:26:57 Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: Most all the parts are now at the factory. The May 10th run has been delayed about two weeks because of last minute supply coordination issues. But I'm still being told that we're on to have devices this month. At least to me, the neo1973 is looking more and more like vapourware, an experiment in marketing, whose purpose is to: 1.) estimate the size of the potential market for OpenMoko devices 2.) see how long the hype will last. So far we've shipped over 100 phones to developers around the world. We've had more than our fair share of delays, but I really don't see how you come to the conclusion that this is vaporware. if there's a specific reasonable question you want to ask us, I promise to answer. I don't (and won't) dodge questions. -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Durability of the Neo1973?
On May 16, 2007, at 4:11 AM, Frank Coenen wrote: Sean, does this have to do with the recent shortage on LCD-displays in Taiwan? - Source: http://www.digitimes.com/systems/a20070508PD204.html Quote: The supply of 2.2- to 2.5-inch panels for entry and medium-level DSCs began running short of demand by about 10% early last month and the shortage is getting worse, the sources indicated. A slight shortage of 2.8 - to 3-inch panels for high-end DSCs has also occurred, the sources noted. The LCMs have been a problem in the past but right now this seems to be just a more general delay. -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Few comments after reading Wiki
Ian Stirling wrote: This is _not_ DRM that stops the owner of the phone doing stuff. It's DRM that stops users of the phone that may or may not be authorised users from doing stuff. Think of it as a BIOS password on steroids. DRM never worked, and never will. it's a fact of life, get over it. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Disconnected LCD
Hans van der Merwe wrote: Will the phone still work - bootup and function as normal - if I disconnect the LCD? It for an experimental, low power, vacuum environment. yeah, it should work. [...] http://www.sunspace.co.za/emaildisclaimer.htm the only question it leaves me with is: what do you want to do with an gsm phone in high orbit? ;) kind regards -- roh ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Users and services is NOT drm, was Re: Few comments after reading Wiki
On Wednesday 16 May 2007 18:46:03 Ian Stirling wrote: I really think you do. I want to be able to give this phone to my (hypothetical) employees. I do not want skilled lazy, employees able to - for example - edit their GPS logs which corroberate the inspections they are required to do. This is _not_ DRM that stops the owner of the phone doing stuff. It's DRM that stops users of the phone that may or may not be authorised users from doing stuff. I think we have a terminology issue here. How is this thig you call DRM (which it isn't really, since it is not dealing with copyright or authoring issues) different from a properly prepared unix environment, chroot/chmod/chown and all ? To put it another way - you say you want to give this to people but want to make sure they are unable to tinker with the data - how is this different from a browser using a web server ? You can define users, pages, rights, and keep the GPS logging on the server side, which enters the points/locations automatically with the report. If your employee can't connect to the DB or write as www-data, you are reasonably safe. If you are really paranoid, I guess you could employ a crypted filesystem (which you mount using an agent so the password is not stored in the device) to make sure it doesn't get edited on another machine, but all of this is really outside the scope of DRM, which is lawyer stuff - DRM doesn't prevent anyone from doing anything - it just gives you a legal base to punish someone who does break it. DRM enforcement software is OTOH an (arguably) futile attempt to make it harder to do something you are not supposed to do (some will argue that it makes it hard to do things you ARE supposed to do). ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Few comments after reading Wiki
Marcin Wiacek wrote: In worst case device should start with default parameters and without additional apps. Our idea is that you can at least load a new boot loader, kernel, etc. over DFU. That's the minimum sane unbricking requirement. Anything else would require more space. (We may actually have enough space for also putting the kernel and a bit of user space there. But that wouldn't be a regular environment, but more something like kboot or linuxbios.) Note that there's also the option to do an emergency boot from the boot menu. This is for more benign screw-ups, e.g., incorrect touch screen calibration making the GUI unusable. For the end user, this level of protection, combined with a bit of DFU hardening will be enough. IMHO, the best is separating memory to two phisical chips and have main software in first (with protection) and additional software/HDD inside second (or protection should block writing to chip below specified address). Per-block protection is tricky. There are only very few companies out there who have chips with this, and even fewer whose chips we could actually use. I don't know of any Flash chip with useful zone protection (you get a lot that protect about 16 kB, but that's not enough). Just protecting the whole chip won't do, since we expect our users (hackers) to install their own boot loaders, kernels, and such. With the MCU we'll use in the future, you also get (useful) zone protection. We think it can be circumvented (by malware but also by well-meant tools), so it's not the 100% carefree solution we're looking for either. However, it will allow for more flexible use of the recovery Flash chip for those who choose to remove the bulletproof protection. (E.g., if they have a debug board.) - Werner -- _ / Werner Almesberger, Buenos Aires, Argentina [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /_http://www.almesberger.net// ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Few comments after reading Wiki
Per-block protection is tricky. There are only very few companies out there who have chips with this, and even fewer whose chips we could actually use. I don't know of any Flash chip with useful zone protection (you get a lot that protect about 16 kB, but that's not enough). Just protecting the OK whole chip won't do, since we expect our users (hackers) to install their own boot loaders, kernels, and such. No, no, no. You install microswitch available under battery (available for end user). When Off, you can not save anything to chip number 1 (you disconnect phisycally lines required for changing chip content). When on, you can save to chip number 1. All stuff like user disk, etc. Etc. goes into chip number 2 (you can always change it). Simple. Can be done something like that (I'm not hardware guy) ? Pozdrowienia/Best Regards -- Marcin Wiacek (www.gammu.org, www.mwiacek.com, I'm looking for a job) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Few comments after reading Wiki
Marcin Wiacek wrote: Can be done something like that (I'm not hardware guy) ? Sure, that's basically what we have in mind, except that there may not even be a microswitch (although I'd like to have at least a jumper), but just a resistor you'd have to unsolder to do this. The issue is that our users (= hackers) can also replace critical system components with their own code. So we don't only have to protect against unwanted changes, but also again users fully intending the change, say, the boot loader. Now, if there's a bug in the new boot loader that breaks it, they will have a means to restore something that works. This is a bit different from the regular consumer device, where people will at most install some nice, well-tested vendor updates. - Werner -- _ / Werner Almesberger, Buenos Aires, Argentina [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /_http://www.almesberger.net// ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Few comments after reading Wiki
Can be done something like that (I'm not hardware guy) ? Sure, that's basically what we have in mind, except that there may not even be a microswitch (although I'd like to have at least a jumper), but just a resistor you'd have to unsolder to do this. Resistor - wrong. It must be available for user without technical knowledge and tools. That's all, what I wanted to say. If I will found money for device, maybe play with it in the future and for example port Gammu+ ;-) Pozdrowienia/Best Regards -- Marcin Wiacek (www.gammu.org, www.mwiacek.com, I'm looking for a job) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: accelerometer in neo?
Hans L wrote: In addition to an accelerometer, the wii remote has a 1 megapixel camera for sensing the position of two infrared leds at each end of the sensor bar which is placed above or below your TV. The It's not megapixel, it's 20Kp http://www.wiili.org/forum/logging-linear-force-data-t193.html ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Users and services is NOT drm, was Re: Few comments after reading Wiki
Attila Csipa wrote: On Wednesday 16 May 2007 18:46:03 Ian Stirling wrote: I really think you do. I want to be able to give this phone to my (hypothetical) employees. I do not want skilled lazy, employees able to - for example - edit their GPS logs which corroberate the inspections they are required to do. This is _not_ DRM that stops the owner of the phone doing stuff. It's DRM that stops users of the phone that may or may not be authorised users from doing stuff. Yes, I should have commented on that. DRM is entirely the wrong phrase. I think we have a terminology issue here. How is this thig you call DRM (which it isn't really, since it is not dealing with copyright or authoring issues) different from a properly prepared unix environment, chroot/chmod/chown and all ? That's basically all I was aiming at. Make it as secure as a PC with physical access can be, from the user - _NOT_ the owner. If they are the same, then they have to do a couple of minute process once in order to get the key to install custom kernels or bootloaders forever. If FIC completely goes away, or decides to be evil, then the people given the private key distribute it, so that anyone can do it. (If FIC are unconcerned about the warranty returns aspect, then simply putting the key in the box along with the neo would work.) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Few comments after reading Wiki
Marcin Wiacek wrote: Resistor - wrong. It must be available for user without technical knowledge and tools. No, this memory is the one only users who know exactly what they're doing and have the right tools should ever change. And even those normally shouldn't even want to. The things there are strictly for disaster recovery. They're the last defense against bricking the device. (If you remove this defense, then unbricking requires JTAG, so you either need a debug board, find someone who has it, or send it back to FIC.) In normal use, this Flash is not accessed. You can still change kernels, boot loader, and all that, with maximum ease. (They're all in the regular Flash.) - Werner -- _ / Werner Almesberger, Buenos Aires, Argentina [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /_http://www.almesberger.net// ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Few comments after reading Wiki
Raphaël Jacquot wrote: Ian Stirling wrote: This is _not_ DRM that stops the owner of the phone doing stuff. It's DRM that stops users of the phone that may or may not be authorised users from doing stuff. Think of it as a BIOS password on steroids. DRM never worked, and never will. it's a fact of life, get over it. It's not DRM. It's a BIOS password, which doesn't let you flash it without the password. Without it, any employee/pervert that wants to drop a logger on your childs phone can do whatever they want to any Neo phone with a minute or so alone with it. The key can as easily be supplied in a tamper-proof card with the phone, that has to be returned unopened to obtain an unbricking, otherwise you pay a small fee. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Few comments after reading Wiki
There are many ways to make it 99.999% secure. Who cares if you can't technically secure it 100%. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Raphaël Jacquot Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 4:23 PM To: Ian Stirling Cc: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: Few comments after reading Wiki there's no such thing as a secure system. You can have a somewhat secure thing, that will be able to resist to X but the 100% secure thing doesn't exist. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Few comments after reading Wiki
Ian Stirling wrote: Raphaël Jacquot wrote: DRM never worked, and never will. it's a fact of life, get over it. It's not DRM. It's a BIOS password, which doesn't let you flash it without the password. Without it, any employee/pervert that wants to drop a logger on your childs phone can do whatever they want to any Neo phone with a minute or so alone with it. The key can as easily be supplied in a tamper-proof card with the phone, that has to be returned unopened to obtain an unbricking, otherwise you pay a small fee. there's no such thing as a secure system. You can have a somewhat secure thing, that will be able to resist to X but the 100% secure thing doesn't exist. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Few comments after reading Wiki
[] In normal use, this Flash is not accessed. You can still change kernels, boot loader, and all that, with maximum ease. (They're all in the regular Flash.) Of I see that we think about different things I was thinking about protecting memory with main phone software (like kernel, boot loader, main apps). In other words: if you want, after downloading and installing apps you can protect your device and nobody (wrong sms, .) can damage it. You can normally use device (memory with sms and similiar things can be changed). You were thinking about protecting lower level. Pozdrowienia/Best Regards -- Marcin Wiacek (www.gammu.org, www.mwiacek.com, I'm looking for a job) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Few comments after reading Wiki
On 5/16/07, Ian Stirling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Raphaël Jacquot wrote: Ian Stirling wrote: This is _not_ DRM that stops the owner of the phone doing stuff. It's DRM that stops users of the phone that may or may not be authorised users from doing stuff. Think of it as a BIOS password on steroids. DRM never worked, and never will. it's a fact of life, get over it. It's not DRM. It's a BIOS password, which doesn't let you flash it without the password. Without it, any employee/pervert that wants to drop a logger on your childs phone can do whatever they want to any Neo phone with a minute or so alone with it. Suddenly it's about the children and not about spying on your employees? How convenient... Anyone given a few minutes alone with your phone could do whatever they wanted to it. The number one rule of computer security: prevent physical access. With physical access, you can accomplish pretty much anything! -Steven ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Few comments after reading Wiki
On 5/16/07, Marcin Wiacek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. I hope, that there will be made SAR tests and results will be very low Why? It may help with marketing, but the worst it could do (unless it's several orders of magnitude beyond what current phones) is make you a bit warm. Non-ionizing radiation is not a cause of cancer. Better to worry about things that there is actually evidence to back up - like radon, or using the phone while driving :-) Cheers, Ben ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Few comments after reading Wiki
5. hav developers though about creating it on kind of x86 compatible platform ? I know, it could be more difficult to create energy efficient device, but having PC in pocket (with ability to running dos, windows after changing SD card) would be more than excellent yes, i have. i don't know about any others though i'm waiting for via to release the pico-itx board they've been promising and will see what i can do with that to create a UMPC/phone/pda type combo. this board/cpu promises ultra-low power and hw accelerated video playback, looks very interesting and would be awesomely flexible/powerful as you say, the main issue is power - x86 isn't really optimized for anything as it's such a generalised architecture. my calcs at the moment on power are struggling to get more than a few hours use with a reasonable size battery ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Few comments after reading Wiki
Marcin Wiacek wrote: Of I see that we think about different things Yup :-) I was thinking about protecting memory with main phone software (like kernel, boot loader, main apps). You'll (almost certainly) be able to do this as well: the new MCU will allow you to specify which NAND Flash area can be written to. Once this is set, it cannot be changed without a reset. So this would be a hardware assisted solution. Unfortunately, you can probably bypass it if you're determined. - Werner -- _ / Werner Almesberger, Buenos Aires, Argentina [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /_http://www.almesberger.net// ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Making Neo Brickproof, was comments after reading Wiki
It seems to me as someone who designs and makes embedded devices (mainly using the Freescale MC9S12 processors) that you need another lower level bootstrap loader that is small, can be protected and will either jump to the main bootstrap loader if it is functional or be able to download a new 2nd stage bootstrap loader and program it into flash via the USB port. Here is a flow chart for the proposed loader RESET 1. Turn protection on for this first level bootstrap code (if necessary) 2. Check if user wants to download new 2nd stage bootstrap (could use AUX button), if so goto 5 3. Check if 2nd stage bootstrap exists (is 2nd stage bootstrap flash blank?), if so goto 5 4. Check 2nd stage bootstrap code in Flash via checksum, if OK load into RAM and jump to else goto 5 5. Download new second stage bootstrap image from the USB port and store into FLASH. I would use some simple HEX format like Intel or Motorola HEX format. I have used a similar scheme for some time now and it has been bullet proof for me. Simon Matthews On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 19:55 -0300, Werner Almesberger wrote: Marcin Wiacek wrote: Of I see that we think about different things Yup :-) I was thinking about protecting memory with main phone software (like kernel, boot loader, main apps). You'll (almost certainly) be able to do this as well: the new MCU will allow you to specify which NAND Flash area can be written to. Once this is set, it cannot be changed without a reset. So this would be a hardware assisted solution. Unfortunately, you can probably bypass it if you're determined. - Werner ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Making Neo Brickproof, was comments after reading Wiki
Simon Matthews wrote: It seems to me as someone who designs and makes embedded devices (mainly using the Freescale MC9S12 processors) that you need another lower level bootstrap loader that is small, Ah yes, we've been through that idea as well :-) We rejected it, because we don't want to have yet more code duplicating functionality found elsewhere to maintain. Besides, it wouldn't be all that trivial, given that we don't have any simple interfaces. (Anything that needs a debug board or other fancy adapters doesn't count.) Also, there really isn't much difference between a few protected bytes or hundreds of protected kilobytes. We need an extra chip anyway, and if we want something reasonably small and modern, it'll have plenty of space. Thus there's no penalty in using it. But yes, the small loader approach works well enough in other contexts. I've used it myself. - Werner -- _ / Werner Almesberger, Buenos Aires, Argentina [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /_http://www.almesberger.net// ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
