Re: [Computer-go] Narrow wins
On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 9:23 PM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com wrote: Dynamic komi and some other tricks work quite well. Thanks to Ingo for pushing dynamic komi until I figured out how to make it work well. Often the playout have some bias due to a misread in a fight, so it’s important for the bot to keep its lead. Is that a small, fixed bonus of 1 or 2 points? A large dynamic komi in the endgame would really surprise me. But to actually compensate a misread fight, that komi would have to be substantial ... Like Don, I don't think that much good could come of it. Isn't it superior to award a point bonus in the playouts? Here's another idea: find a smart way to average the playout results into an expected result. If the bot is leading, try to maintain that lead in the next move. Stefan ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Narrow wins
The dynamic komi can be pretty large. I think I limit it to 30 points or so. If the komi were only a point or two you would see a lot of games won by 2.5 points or so. You can see from the results that the margins are often pretty large. David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Stefan Kaitschick Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 1:24 AM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Narrow wins On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 9:23 PM, David Fotland fotland@smart- games.com wrote: Dynamic komi and some other tricks work quite well. Thanks to Ingo for pushing dynamic komi until I figured out how to make it work well. Often the playout have some bias due to a misread in a fight, so it's important for the bot to keep its lead. Is that a small, fixed bonus of 1 or 2 points? A large dynamic komi in the endgame would really surprise me. But to actually compensate a misread fight, that komi would have to be substantial ... Like Don, I don't think that much good could come of it. Isn't it superior to award a point bonus in the playouts? Here's another idea: find a smart way to average the playout results into an expected result. If the bot is leading, try to maintain that lead in the next move. Stefan ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Narrow wins
On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 11:18 AM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.comwrote: The dynamic komi can be pretty large. I think I limit it to 30 points or so. If the komi were only a point or two you would see a lot of games won by 2.5 points or so. You can see from the results that the margins are often pretty large. A big issue which dynamic komi tries to solve is the difficulty in resolving close scores. For example in a won position the playouts might return 99.8% wins and a move which wins by larger margins might still only return 99.8 or even 99.7 or something just due to statistical noise. In computer chess testing we have a similar issue - especially as our program has gotten so strong.If you test against a weak program, it's almost impossible to resolve small differences in strength.Imagine a weak club player playing Go against the world champion in order to resolve the relative ELO difference (assuming no handicapping.)The pro is likely to win thousands of games before losing a single one and there would be no basis for determining where this player stands with any precision. So I assume that by far the primary benefit of dynamic komi is to bring the statistics back into the sweet spot so that it's easier to resolve the quality of move from one to the other. I have not kept up with this, but is your dynamic komi implementation a carefully guarded secret? I would like to know more. It seems to me that there would be some serious efficiency losses in fishing for the right value to use - or is this arrived at pretty quickly? Don David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Stefan Kaitschick Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 1:24 AM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Narrow wins On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 9:23 PM, David Fotland fotland@smart- games.com wrote: Dynamic komi and some other tricks work quite well. Thanks to Ingo for pushing dynamic komi until I figured out how to make it work well. Often the playout have some bias due to a misread in a fight, so it's important for the bot to keep its lead. Is that a small, fixed bonus of 1 or 2 points? A large dynamic komi in the endgame would really surprise me. But to actually compensate a misread fight, that komi would have to be substantial ... Like Don, I don't think that much good could come of it. Isn't it superior to award a point bonus in the playouts? Here's another idea: find a smart way to average the playout results into an expected result. If the bot is leading, try to maintain that lead in the next move. Stefan ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Narrow wins
On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Stefan Kaitschick stefan.kaitsch...@hamburg.de wrote: @Don: To me the biggest issue isn't winning by 0.5 but not fighting when it's losing. It can sometimes feel that way, but when a bot is timid in a losing position that's because it can't see the loss. A little while ago I played CrazyStone against it's server-version for some games. I was very impressed with its playing strength. But IMO its greatest weakness is not timid play but totally giving up when things get a little complicated, even though I think the game is still up for grabs. I think this is what Don is referring to. OTOH, it often did a good job avoiding those complications. But if I could get it into a situation where there's a fight with each side having two weak groups or more, more often than not the bot would just roll over and die. My greatest weakness is relaxing when I think the game is won :) Mark ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
