Re: [Computer-go] Zen resignation positions
There are many tests of normality that might be well suited. The Kolmogorov-Smirnov test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov%E2%80%93Smirnov_test) for instance should be easy to compute in terms of the function erf(). None of those are good tests for the specific requirement here. To begin with, even when the graph looks Gaussian, I don't think it is. Moreover, Shapiro-Wilk will look somewhat more at the tails, and that's not interesting: We want to focus on the multimodularity. So just count the number and depths of peaks. I could suggest a few simple and quick algorithms that would be robust to the noise, but I think your methods will be as good as mine. Jonas ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Zen resignation positions
Kahn Jonas jonas.k...@math.u-psud.fr ... and that's not interesting: We want to focus on the multimodularity. So just count the number and depths of peaks. Jonas is right. Identifying peaks and their volumes is indeed rather easy. For the long run I see a plan with two stages. Stage (ii) should be interesting particularly as along as pro players still give handicap stones to bots. (i) Given a large board (typically 19x19) and for some middle game position a Monte-Carlo histogram with two or more peaks. Identify the corresponding local fight(s) which is/are responsible for the peak(s). This task is not trivial, but within reach. (ii) When still ahead in such a position, the bot should resolve a local fight for the prize of a few points. An example for this can be seen in ds' and Petr Baudis' comments on a game between Catalin Taranu (5p) (=egc2012pro) and Crazy Stone on August 02, 2012. http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2012month=8 The upper left corner was no completely cleared, and CrazyStone played with the resulting peaks for more than one hundred moves. In the comments Petr tried to defend CrazyStone, but ds claimed that early action by the bot would have avoided the mis-evaluations. ** One of my hopes (in contrast to pessimists like Stefan Kaitschick) is: When there are MANY unresolved local fights things might become less complicated again for MC bots. (Side remark: on small boards positions with several peaks are not seldom.) Ingo. ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Zen resignation positions
__ From: Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de David Fotland was so kind to point on an inaccuracy in my description on Crazy Shadows: http://www.althofer.de/crazy-shadows.html The x-axis gives the outcome of the random games played. Typically it ranges from about +150 to -150 points. The y-axis gives the frequencies of the outcomes. I have included some more information text on the site, in the introduction. Please let me know when things are still unclear. Lovely graphics! I am curious, how much effort is required to calculate such histograms on-the-fly? How much to determine whether there are multiple peaks? Now the tough question: How can this information be used to improve move selection? I am guessing that there are life-and-death fights on the board which the pro is able to resolve, but the program cannot. What does the pro know, that the bot does not? How can the bot discover this information? ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Zen resignation positions
How much [effort] to determine whether there are multiple peaks? The Shapiro-Wilk test can give you a probability of how non-normal the distribution is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shapiro%E2%80%93Wilk_test As an R example, here is some test data: set.seed(7); data - c(rnorm(2000,0,40),rnorm(2500, 0, 20), rnorm(400, 40, 5)); hist(data,breaks=200) and running shapiro.test(data) gives me: W = 0.9939, p-value = 1.184e-13 The lower the p-value the more it thinks it is not a normal curve. The extreme result is interesting, as the graph looks roughly normal to me. (The Wikipedia page lists alternative tests, which can be found in the R nortest package apparently. I've no idea of CPU effort required for each of them.) Now the tough question: How can this information be used to improve move selection? One approach, not at all sophisticated, is better time management: spend less time on normal distributions, more time when the distribution is messy. (But I wonder if more time will just make the two peaks stand out more?) Darren -- Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work) http://dcook.org/blogs.html (My blogs and articles) ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Zen resignation positions
There are many tests of normality that might be well suited. The Kolmogorov-Smirnov test ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov%E2%80%93Smirnov_test) for instance should be easy to compute in terms of the function erf(). On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 7:07 PM, Darren Cook dar...@dcook.org wrote: How much [effort] to determine whether there are multiple peaks? The Shapiro-Wilk test can give you a probability of how non-normal the distribution is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shapiro%E2%80%93Wilk_test As an R example, here is some test data: set.seed(7); data - c(rnorm(2000,0,40),rnorm(2500, 0, 20), rnorm(400, 40, 5)); hist(data,breaks=200) and running shapiro.test(data) gives me: W = 0.9939, p-value = 1.184e-13 The lower the p-value the more it thinks it is not a normal curve. The extreme result is interesting, as the graph looks roughly normal to me. (The Wikipedia page lists alternative tests, which can be found in the R nortest package apparently. I've no idea of CPU effort required for each of them.) Now the tough question: How can this information be used to improve move selection? One approach, not at all sophisticated, is better time management: spend less time on normal distributions, more time when the distribution is messy. (But I wonder if more time will just make the two peaks stand out more?) Darren -- Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work) http://dcook.org/blogs.html (My blogs and articles) ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Zen resignation positions
From: Darren Cook dar...@dcook.org How much [effort] to determine whether there are multiple peaks? snippage Now the tough question: How can this information be used to improve move selection? One approach, not at all sophisticated, is better time management: spend less time on normal distributions, more time when the distribution is messy. (But I wonder if more time will just make the two peaks stand out more?) If more time means more of the same simulations, it might simply lead to filling in the details; the peaks exist (hypothetically) because the playouts are doing something non-optimal. I wonder if post-game review can focus on such positions and learn something which would optimize the playouts. If such meta-analysis is quick enough, it could be done during the game itself. ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Zen resignation positions
Hi Aja, 2012/12/4 Aja Huang ajahu...@gmail.com: Thanks. But if W plays B9 instead of C9, seems there is no ko? You are right. (although B9 is a Kikasare...) I'm thinking that Zen might be confused with the ko if B plays at B2. In that case, B has too many ko threats at the top-left corner so W can't win the ko fight. Maybe this explains why Zen played the suicide move J2 then resigned. B2? Maybe, J2? Anyway, after H2, Zen had no hope because, as you point out, there's too many ko threats for B. -- Masa Aja ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
[Computer-go] Zen resignation positions
Hi, Zen lost six games against pros in 9x9 on November 25. Each three pros played two games, black and white. I tried these six resignation positions by Aya 100k playouts. Game, Winrate for Aya 10.45 34th move, W to play, vs ICHIRIKI Ryo2p 20.33 53rd move, B to play, vs OHASHI Hirofumi 5p 30.14 34th move, W to play, vs SO Yokoku 8p 40.37 27th move, B to play, vs ICHIRIKI Ryo2p 50.56 34th move, W to play, vs OHASHI Hirofumi 5p 60.27 51st move, B to play, vs SO Yokoku 8p For Aya, game 1 and 5 are difficult. Maybe we need to understand these losses with smaller playouts? Official page(in Japanese) Computer Go challenges pros in 9x9 part 2, fighting without gloves. http://entcog.c.ooco.jp/entcog/event/event20121125.html sgf (player's info updated) http://entcog.c.ooco.jp/entcog/event/kifu_20121125.zip Newspaper report. (in Japanese) Pros won all games against computer in 9x9. http://www.asahi.com/igo/topics/TKY201211270576.html Following is abstract. Computers strength is close to pros in 9x9. But pros made position difficult intentionally, computer made mistakes and lost. Zen almost won its first game, but W 18th, 20th were deep reading moves, and saved the game. From this game result, pros guessed If we make one difficult space, computer might be rough on the other side.. So Ohashi 5 pro made a few ko-ish shapes in his first game, and he didn't start ko soon. Ohashi played two 9x9 games against Zen this March. It was 1 win 1 loss. He said I have studied well and played thinking of Zen's behavior. (He has written artilces about 9x9 Go in Japanese Go Journal.) Another report in Chinese, I can't read though. http://news.sina.com.tw/article/20121125/8393009.html Regards, Hiroshi Yamashita - Original Message - From: Hideki Kato hideki_ka...@ybb.ne.jp To: computer-go@dvandva.org Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 7:31 AM Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Zen beat Ha,Yongil 5p with 4 stones (Re: TAAI details?) Thank you Hiroshi. The names of the players are swapped, sorry all. The games were: 1) Ichiriki 2p (B) vs Zen, 2) Ohashi 5p (W) vs Zen, 3) So 8p (B) vs Zen, 4) Ichiriki 2p (W) vs Zen, 5) Ohashi 5p (B) vs Zen, 6) So 8p (W) vs Zen. The time setting was: 20 min main time and 30 second for every move (no extra byo-yomi). Chinese rules and 7.0 komi were used. Zen's hardware was 4 pc cluster (12, 6, 6 and 6 cores) at 4 GHz, same as TAAI and Zen19D/S on KGS. Professinals used much longer time than Zen; more than 20 min in four games of six while Zen used 10 or 15 min for all games. Sometime they thought more than 5 min (upto 10) for a move, move 11 of the first game for example. On the first game, Zen would play J4 (hane) next at move 16 (cut) but actually played G3 and went into Sekito-shibori (two stone edge squeeze) course. Either showed about 80% winrate but Ichiriki 2p said J4 could lead a safer win for W. Actually Zen had sure chances to win; hard luck. Zen had chances to draw in some games in Black but selected much risky (actually losing) moves. I guess this caused by implementing draws by adding a third value, 0.5, to UCB. To play a draw move, all better looking moves (by prior) have to be refused, or proved worse than 0.5. This could take pretty long time in some positions. #Faking komi to 6.5 might help but a better solution possible? Hideki Hiroshi Yamashita: 313F02D8CF2F41D6AD89D1A42486DD59@x60: Hi, The game records can be downloaded from http://entcog.c.ooco.jp/entcog/event/kifu_20121125.lzh . I can not read that format. Can someone please translate it into I changed it to zip. http://www.yss-aya.com/kifu20121125.zip I was impressed So Yokoku 8p comment, Zen is apt to make a mistake when we make two places that may become ko. It makes game complex. Actual playing ko makes game simple. Didn't it win the first game? Sgf's player color is wrong. Black is Ichiriki 2p in first game. Zen lost all 6 games. Regards, Hiroshi Yamashita ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go -- Hideki Kato mailto:hideki_ka...@ybb.ne.jp ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Zen resignation positions
Hi Hiroshi, good point. I did not try all of the sic games, but only number 1. Both ManyFaces and CrazyStone evaluated the final position more or less positively for Zen's side. So, they also have problems to understand what is going on there. Ingo. Original-Nachricht Datum: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 19:23:15 +0900 Von: Hiroshi Yamashita y...@bd.mbn.or.jp An: computer-go@dvandva.org Betreff: [Computer-go] Zen resignation positions Hi, Zen lost six games against pros in 9x9 on November 25. Each three pros played two games, black and white. I tried these six resignation positions by Aya 100k playouts. Game, Winrate for Aya 10.45 34th move, W to play, vs ICHIRIKI Ryo2p 20.33 53rd move, B to play, vs OHASHI Hirofumi 5p 30.14 34th move, W to play, vs SO Yokoku 8p 40.37 27th move, B to play, vs ICHIRIKI Ryo2p 50.56 34th move, W to play, vs OHASHI Hirofumi 5p 60.27 51st move, B to play, vs SO Yokoku 8p For Aya, game 1 and 5 are difficult. Maybe we need to understand these losses with smaller playouts? Official page(in Japanese) Computer Go challenges pros in 9x9 part 2, fighting without gloves. http://entcog.c.ooco.jp/entcog/event/event20121125.html sgf (player's info updated) http://entcog.c.ooco.jp/entcog/event/kifu_20121125.zip Newspaper report. (in Japanese) Pros won all games against computer in 9x9. http://www.asahi.com/igo/topics/TKY201211270576.html Following is abstract. Computers strength is close to pros in 9x9. But pros made position difficult intentionally, computer made mistakes and lost. Zen almost won its first game, but W 18th, 20th were deep reading moves, and saved the game. From this game result, pros guessed If we make one difficult space, computer might be rough on the other side.. So Ohashi 5 pro made a few ko-ish shapes in his first game, and he didn't start ko soon. Ohashi played two 9x9 games against Zen this March. It was 1 win 1 loss. He said I have studied well and played thinking of Zen's behavior. (He has written artilces about 9x9 Go in Japanese Go Journal.) Another report in Chinese, I can't read though. http://news.sina.com.tw/article/20121125/8393009.html Regards, Hiroshi Yamashita - Original Message - From: Hideki Kato hideki_ka...@ybb.ne.jp To: computer-go@dvandva.org Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 7:31 AM Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Zen beat Ha,Yongil 5p with 4 stones (Re: TAAI details?) Thank you Hiroshi. The names of the players are swapped, sorry all. The games were: 1) Ichiriki 2p (B) vs Zen, 2) Ohashi 5p (W) vs Zen, 3) So 8p (B) vs Zen, 4) Ichiriki 2p (W) vs Zen, 5) Ohashi 5p (B) vs Zen, 6) So 8p (W) vs Zen. The time setting was: 20 min main time and 30 second for every move (no extra byo-yomi). Chinese rules and 7.0 komi were used. Zen's hardware was 4 pc cluster (12, 6, 6 and 6 cores) at 4 GHz, same as TAAI and Zen19D/S on KGS. Professinals used much longer time than Zen; more than 20 min in four games of six while Zen used 10 or 15 min for all games. Sometime they thought more than 5 min (upto 10) for a move, move 11 of the first game for example. On the first game, Zen would play J4 (hane) next at move 16 (cut) but actually played G3 and went into Sekito-shibori (two stone edge squeeze) course. Either showed about 80% winrate but Ichiriki 2p said J4 could lead a safer win for W. Actually Zen had sure chances to win; hard luck. Zen had chances to draw in some games in Black but selected much risky (actually losing) moves. I guess this caused by implementing draws by adding a third value, 0.5, to UCB. To play a draw move, all better looking moves (by prior) have to be refused, or proved worse than 0.5. This could take pretty long time in some positions. #Faking komi to 6.5 might help but a better solution possible? Hideki Hiroshi Yamashita: 313F02D8CF2F41D6AD89D1A42486DD59@x60: Hi, The game records can be downloaded from http://entcog.c.ooco.jp/entcog/event/kifu_20121125.lzh . I can not read that format. Can someone please translate it into I changed it to zip. http://www.yss-aya.com/kifu20121125.zip I was impressed So Yokoku 8p comment, Zen is apt to make a mistake when we make two places that may become ko. It makes game complex. Actual playing ko makes game simple. Didn't it win the first game? Sgf's player color is wrong. Black is Ichiriki 2p in first game. Zen lost all 6 games. Regards, Hiroshi Yamashita ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go -- Hideki Kato mailto:hideki_ka...@ybb.ne.jp ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo
Re: [Computer-go] Zen resignation positions
In game 3 (Zen as W vs. So 8p), I don't understand why Zen didn't simply extend at G8 (move 24). That would be an easy win if Zen lived a group at that corner. Aja 2012/12/2 Hiroshi Yamashita y...@bd.mbn.or.jp Hi, Zen lost six games against pros in 9x9 on November 25. Each three pros played two games, black and white. I tried these six resignation positions by Aya 100k playouts. Game, Winrate for Aya 10.45 34th move, W to play, vs ICHIRIKI Ryo2p 20.33 53rd move, B to play, vs OHASHI Hirofumi 5p 30.14 34th move, W to play, vs SO Yokoku 8p 40.37 27th move, B to play, vs ICHIRIKI Ryo2p 50.56 34th move, W to play, vs OHASHI Hirofumi 5p 60.27 51st move, B to play, vs SO Yokoku 8p For Aya, game 1 and 5 are difficult. Maybe we need to understand these losses with smaller playouts? Official page(in Japanese) Computer Go challenges pros in 9x9 part 2, fighting without gloves. http://entcog.c.ooco.jp/**entcog/event/event20121125.**htmlhttp://entcog.c.ooco.jp/entcog/event/event20121125.html sgf (player's info updated) http://entcog.c.ooco.jp/**entcog/event/kifu_20121125.ziphttp://entcog.c.ooco.jp/entcog/event/kifu_20121125.zip Newspaper report. (in Japanese) Pros won all games against computer in 9x9. http://www.asahi.com/igo/**topics/TKY201211270576.htmlhttp://www.asahi.com/igo/topics/TKY201211270576.html Following is abstract. Computers strength is close to pros in 9x9. But pros made position difficult intentionally, computer made mistakes and lost. Zen almost won its first game, but W 18th, 20th were deep reading moves, and saved the game. From this game result, pros guessed If we make one difficult space, computer might be rough on the other side.. So Ohashi 5 pro made a few ko-ish shapes in his first game, and he didn't start ko soon. Ohashi played two 9x9 games against Zen this March. It was 1 win 1 loss. He said I have studied well and played thinking of Zen's behavior. (He has written artilces about 9x9 Go in Japanese Go Journal.) Another report in Chinese, I can't read though. http://news.sina.com.tw/**article/20121125/8393009.htmlhttp://news.sina.com.tw/article/20121125/8393009.html Regards, Hiroshi Yamashita - Original Message - From: Hideki Kato hideki_ka...@ybb.ne.jp To: computer-go@dvandva.org Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 7:31 AM Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Zen beat Ha,Yongil 5p with 4 stones (Re: TAAI details?) Thank you Hiroshi. The names of the players are swapped, sorry all. The games were: 1) Ichiriki 2p (B) vs Zen, 2) Ohashi 5p (W) vs Zen, 3) So 8p (B) vs Zen, 4) Ichiriki 2p (W) vs Zen, 5) Ohashi 5p (B) vs Zen, 6) So 8p (W) vs Zen. The time setting was: 20 min main time and 30 second for every move (no extra byo-yomi). Chinese rules and 7.0 komi were used. Zen's hardware was 4 pc cluster (12, 6, 6 and 6 cores) at 4 GHz, same as TAAI and Zen19D/S on KGS. Professinals used much longer time than Zen; more than 20 min in four games of six while Zen used 10 or 15 min for all games. Sometime they thought more than 5 min (upto 10) for a move, move 11 of the first game for example. On the first game, Zen would play J4 (hane) next at move 16 (cut) but actually played G3 and went into Sekito-shibori (two stone edge squeeze) course. Either showed about 80% winrate but Ichiriki 2p said J4 could lead a safer win for W. Actually Zen had sure chances to win; hard luck. Zen had chances to draw in some games in Black but selected much risky (actually losing) moves. I guess this caused by implementing draws by adding a third value, 0.5, to UCB. To play a draw move, all better looking moves (by prior) have to be refused, or proved worse than 0.5. This could take pretty long time in some positions. #Faking komi to 6.5 might help but a better solution possible? Hideki Hiroshi Yamashita: **313F02D8CF2F41D6AD89D1A42486DD**59@x60: Hi, The game records can be downloaded from http://entcog.c.ooco.jp/** entcog/event/kifu_20121125.lzhhttp://entcog.c.ooco.jp/entcog/event/kifu_20121125.lzh. I can not read that format. Can someone please translate it into I changed it to zip. http://www.yss-aya.com/**kifu20121125.ziphttp://www.yss-aya.com/kifu20121125.zip I was impressed So Yokoku 8p comment, Zen is apt to make a mistake when we make two places that may become ko. It makes game complex. Actual playing ko makes game simple. Didn't it win the first game? Sgf's player color is wrong. Black is Ichiriki 2p in first game. Zen lost all 6 games. Regards, Hiroshi Yamashita __**_ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/computer-gohttp://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go -- Hideki Kato mailto:hideki_ka...@ybb.ne.jp** __**_ Computer-go mailing list
Re: [Computer-go] Zen resignation positions
It doesn't look that easy to me. Have you tried playing it against Erica? Erik On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 3:02 PM, Aja Huang ajahu...@gmail.com wrote: In game 3 (Zen as W vs. So 8p), I don't understand why Zen didn't simply extend at G8 (move 24). That would be an easy win if Zen lived a group at that corner. Aja 2012/12/2 Hiroshi Yamashita y...@bd.mbn.or.jp Hi, Zen lost six games against pros in 9x9 on November 25. Each three pros played two games, black and white. I tried these six resignation positions by Aya 100k playouts. Game, Winrate for Aya 10.45 34th move, W to play, vs ICHIRIKI Ryo2p 20.33 53rd move, B to play, vs OHASHI Hirofumi 5p 30.14 34th move, W to play, vs SO Yokoku 8p 40.37 27th move, B to play, vs ICHIRIKI Ryo2p 50.56 34th move, W to play, vs OHASHI Hirofumi 5p 60.27 51st move, B to play, vs SO Yokoku 8p For Aya, game 1 and 5 are difficult. Maybe we need to understand these losses with smaller playouts? Official page(in Japanese) Computer Go challenges pros in 9x9 part 2, fighting without gloves. http://entcog.c.ooco.jp/entcog/event/event20121125.html sgf (player's info updated) http://entcog.c.ooco.jp/entcog/event/kifu_20121125.zip Newspaper report. (in Japanese) Pros won all games against computer in 9x9. http://www.asahi.com/igo/topics/TKY201211270576.html Following is abstract. Computers strength is close to pros in 9x9. But pros made position difficult intentionally, computer made mistakes and lost. Zen almost won its first game, but W 18th, 20th were deep reading moves, and saved the game. From this game result, pros guessed If we make one difficult space, computer might be rough on the other side.. So Ohashi 5 pro made a few ko-ish shapes in his first game, and he didn't start ko soon. Ohashi played two 9x9 games against Zen this March. It was 1 win 1 loss. He said I have studied well and played thinking of Zen's behavior. (He has written artilces about 9x9 Go in Japanese Go Journal.) Another report in Chinese, I can't read though. http://news.sina.com.tw/article/20121125/8393009.html Regards, Hiroshi Yamashita - Original Message - From: Hideki Kato hideki_ka...@ybb.ne.jp To: computer-go@dvandva.org Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 7:31 AM Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Zen beat Ha,Yongil 5p with 4 stones (Re: TAAI details?) Thank you Hiroshi. The names of the players are swapped, sorry all. The games were: 1) Ichiriki 2p (B) vs Zen, 2) Ohashi 5p (W) vs Zen, 3) So 8p (B) vs Zen, 4) Ichiriki 2p (W) vs Zen, 5) Ohashi 5p (B) vs Zen, 6) So 8p (W) vs Zen. The time setting was: 20 min main time and 30 second for every move (no extra byo-yomi). Chinese rules and 7.0 komi were used. Zen's hardware was 4 pc cluster (12, 6, 6 and 6 cores) at 4 GHz, same as TAAI and Zen19D/S on KGS. Professinals used much longer time than Zen; more than 20 min in four games of six while Zen used 10 or 15 min for all games. Sometime they thought more than 5 min (upto 10) for a move, move 11 of the first game for example. On the first game, Zen would play J4 (hane) next at move 16 (cut) but actually played G3 and went into Sekito-shibori (two stone edge squeeze) course. Either showed about 80% winrate but Ichiriki 2p said J4 could lead a safer win for W. Actually Zen had sure chances to win; hard luck. Zen had chances to draw in some games in Black but selected much risky (actually losing) moves. I guess this caused by implementing draws by adding a third value, 0.5, to UCB. To play a draw move, all better looking moves (by prior) have to be refused, or proved worse than 0.5. This could take pretty long time in some positions. #Faking komi to 6.5 might help but a better solution possible? Hideki Hiroshi Yamashita: 313F02D8CF2F41D6AD89D1A42486DD59@x60: Hi, The game records can be downloaded from http://entcog.c.ooco.jp/entcog/event/kifu_20121125.lzh . I can not read that format. Can someone please translate it into I changed it to zip. http://www.yss-aya.com/kifu20121125.zip I was impressed So Yokoku 8p comment, Zen is apt to make a mistake when we make two places that may become ko. It makes game complex. Actual playing ko makes game simple. Didn't it win the first game? Sgf's player color is wrong. Black is Ichiriki 2p in first game. Zen lost all 6 games. Regards, Hiroshi Yamashita ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go -- Hideki Kato mailto:hideki_ka...@ybb.ne.jp ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Zen resignation positions
2012/12/2 Erik van der Werf erikvanderw...@gmail.com It doesn't look that easy to me. Have you tried playing it against Erica? No, I haven't set up Erica in this laptop. Another question: how about W H4 instead of H2 for move 28? The corner looks completely alive to me. Even if B has a killing method, it's not easy anyway and that is much better than the unresisting sudden death as Zen played in the game. These 9x9 games, Zen vs. pros, show that LD, like semeai, is still far from an unsolved problem in MCTS. Aja ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Zen resignation positions
Datum: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 15:03:32 + Von: Aja Huang ajahu...@gmail.com ... These 9x9 games, Zen vs. pros, show that LD, like semeai, is still far from an unsolved problem in MCTS. Indeed. It want to use the opportunity to mention again my website on Crazy Shadows: http://www.althofer.de/crazy-shadows.html When the distribution of scores of Monte Carlo games looks like a landscape with several peaks, then likely the bot has a problem with evaluation of semeais. Ingo. ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Zen resignation positions
Nice! I have been wondering if there were a way for a bot to know that it is in trouble. Might be possible, in circumstances like these, to burn some extra cycles and find out what the problem is. Terry McIntyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com Unix/Linux Systems Administration Taking time to do it right saves having to do it twice. From: Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de To: computer-go@dvandva.org Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 10:19 AM Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Zen resignation positions Datum: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 15:03:32 + Von: Aja Huang ajahu...@gmail.com ... These 9x9 games, Zen vs. pros, show that LD, like semeai, is still far from an unsolved problem in MCTS. Indeed. It want to use the opportunity to mention again my website on Crazy Shadows: http://www.althofer.de/crazy-shadows.html When the distribution of scores of Monte Carlo games looks like a landscape with several peaks, then likely the bot has a problem with evaluation of semeais. Ingo. ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Zen resignation positions
Hi Aja, Of course, H4 is by far better than H2. But there's still Ko at the upper left corner from B, that is, C8, D8, A8, C9, A6, B5, B9. The Pro left this Ko intentionally, and Zen got mixed up. -- Masa 2012/12/3 Aja Huang ajahu...@gmail.com: 2012/12/2 Erik van der Werf erikvanderw...@gmail.com It doesn't look that easy to me. Have you tried playing it against Erica? No, I haven't set up Erica in this laptop. Another question: how about W H4 instead of H2 for move 28? The corner looks completely alive to me. Even if B has a killing method, it's not easy anyway and that is much better than the unresisting sudden death as Zen played in the game. These 9x9 games, Zen vs. pros, show that LD, like semeai, is still far from an unsolved problem in MCTS. Aja ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Zen resignation positions
Hi Aja, Of course, H4 is by far better than H2. But there's still Ko at the upper left corner from B, that is, C8, D8, A8, C9, A6, B5, B9. The Pro left this Ko intentionally, and Zen got mixed up. I believe Zen didn't mix-up. Increasing (potential) Ko positions increases branch factor a lot and shallower the search tree due to read Ko threats, even if the simulations manage the Ko correctly. This could be more difficult problem than leave multiple unsolved groups strategy to solve. Hideki -- Masa 2012/12/3 Aja Huang ajahu...@gmail.com: 2012/12/2 Erik van der Werf erikvanderw...@gmail.com It doesn't look that easy to me. Have you tried playing it against Erica? No, I haven't set up Erica in this laptop. Another question: how about W H4 instead of H2 for move 28? The corner looks completely alive to me. Even if B has a killing method, it's not easy anyway and that is much better than the unresisting sudden death as Zen played in the game. These 9x9 games, Zen vs. pros, show that LD, like semeai, is still far from an unsolved problem in MCTS. Aja ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go -- Hideki Kato mailto:hideki_ka...@ybb.ne.jp ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
