Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!
No wonder you got no takers. It's too complicated for amateurs to comment on it comfortably. All I can say, is that I couldnt spot any obvious mistakes in the ko fight. These bots are actually pretty great, when it comes to shortage of libs fights. Stefan On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Rémi Coulom remi.cou...@free.fr wrote: Hi Nick, Thanks for the report. CrazyStone then also passed”: it was Aya I was very impressed by the strength of DolBaram, especially if we consider its hardware. I had the impression that it could have won the game it lost to Crazy Stone. I wonder if strong players can comment that game. It was a complicated semeai with a ko. Rémi ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!
Perhaps this would be a nice example for Master Jasiek ?! Just my 2 Cent, Ingo. Gesendet: Mittwoch, 11. Dezember 2013 um 11:14 Uhr Von: Stefan Kaitschick stefan.kaitsch...@hamburg.de An: computer-go@dvandva.org Betreff: Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone! No wonder you got no takers. It's too complicated for amateurs to comment on it comfortably. All I can say, is that I couldnt spot any obvious mistakes in the ko fight. These bots are actually pretty great, when it comes to shortage of libs fights. Stefan On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Rémi Coulom remi.cou...@free.fr wrote: Hi Nick, Thanks for the report. CrazyStone then also passed”: it was Aya I was very impressed by the strength of DolBaram, especially if we consider its hardware. I had the impression that it could have won the game it lost to Crazy Stone. I wonder if strong players can comment that game. It was a complicated semeai with a ko. Rémi ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!
Since I started this thread, with the message below, I have made four more contributions to it. But none of them has shown up in my mail client (the quoted message did show up). I am wondering what is wrong. Have other readers seen my postings here after December 9th? Nick On 09/12/2013 19:31, Nick Wedd wrote: Congratulations to Crazy Stone, winner of yesterday's 13x13 KGS bot tournament! My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/98/index.html As usual I will be grateful for your comments and corrections. Nick -- Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!
What happens with 2 bent fours? You should be able to save one of them. On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Hiroshi Yamashita y...@bd.mbn.or.jp wrote: In round 3 CrazyStone vs. Aya, probably Aya was expecting W to play L12 or N12, if B's corner was not 100% dead in the playouts. It seems a bug in Aya's playouts, but even if there was no bug, Aya could still reasonably expect W's L12 or N12 in the tree. Corner bent-four is not easy to handle Yesterday I turned off bent4 code for test, and forgot. Aya understands bent4 as seki. And at end of playout, bent4 shape is counted as dead. It works well, but when outside of bent4 is semeai, it does not work. Maybe when outside W lib is 5, W has to play N12? And thanks for nice look cross-table and report. I was bit surprised I got runners-up 7 times in a row this year. Regards, Hiroshi Yamashita ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!
Does it matter? You just remove ko threaths. The problem is with unremovable ko threaths. Op 10 dec. 2013 09:33 schreef Stefan Kaitschick stefan.kaitsch...@hamburg.de: What happens with 2 bent fours? You should be able to save one of them. On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Hiroshi Yamashita y...@bd.mbn.or.jp wrote: In round 3 CrazyStone vs. Aya, probably Aya was expecting W to play L12 or N12, if B's corner was not 100% dead in the playouts. It seems a bug in Aya's playouts, but even if there was no bug, Aya could still reasonably expect W's L12 or N12 in the tree. Corner bent-four is not easy to handle Yesterday I turned off bent4 code for test, and forgot. Aya understands bent4 as seki. And at end of playout, bent4 shape is counted as dead. It works well, but when outside of bent4 is semeai, it does not work. Maybe when outside W lib is 5, W has to play N12? And thanks for nice look cross-table and report. I was bit surprised I got runners-up 7 times in a row this year. Regards, Hiroshi Yamashita ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!
I am afraid can depend on rule set in use. I guess that under Japanese rules bent four is dead by definition. But having two of them does not really change anything as attacker can choose to fight then after each other. Petri 2013/12/10 Stefan Kaitschick stefan.kaitsch...@hamburg.de What happens with 2 bent fours? You should be able to save one of them. On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Hiroshi Yamashita y...@bd.mbn.or.jp wrote: In round 3 CrazyStone vs. Aya, probably Aya was expecting W to play L12 or N12, if B's corner was not 100% dead in the playouts. It seems a bug in Aya's playouts, but even if there was no bug, Aya could still reasonably expect W's L12 or N12 in the tree. Corner bent-four is not easy to handle Yesterday I turned off bent4 code for test, and forgot. Aya understands bent4 as seki. And at end of playout, bent4 shape is counted as dead. It works well, but when outside of bent4 is semeai, it does not work. Maybe when outside W lib is 5, W has to play N12? And thanks for nice look cross-table and report. I was bit surprised I got runners-up 7 times in a row this year. Regards, Hiroshi Yamashita ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!
I am afraid can depend on rule set in use. I guess that under Japanese rules bent four is dead by definition. If you had four bent-fours, one in each corner, all dead in Japanese rules for the same colour, *and* four un-removeable ko threats, is that the position that will give the biggest difference in score between Japanese and the other scoring methods? Just curious. (I was going to apologize for being off-topic but, now I think about it, such a position might make a fine corner-case test - in any rule set!) Darren ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!
Oops, your so right. The defender has no ko threat in the 2nd bent four. I didnt think that through. Stefan On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 9:46 AM, Petri Pitkanen petri.t.pitka...@gmail.com wrote: I am afraid can depend on rule set in use. I guess that under Japanese rules bent four is dead by definition. But having two of them does not really change anything as attacker can choose to fight then after each other. Petri 2013/12/10 Stefan Kaitschick stefan.kaitsch...@hamburg.de What happens with 2 bent fours? You should be able to save one of them. On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Hiroshi Yamashita y...@bd.mbn.or.jp wrote: In round 3 CrazyStone vs. Aya, probably Aya was expecting W to play L12 or N12, if B's corner was not 100% dead in the playouts. It seems a bug in Aya's playouts, but even if there was no bug, Aya could still reasonably expect W's L12 or N12 in the tree. Corner bent-four is not easy to handle Yesterday I turned off bent4 code for test, and forgot. Aya understands bent4 as seki. And at end of playout, bent4 shape is counted as dead. It works well, but when outside of bent4 is semeai, it does not work. Maybe when outside W lib is 5, W has to play N12? And thanks for nice look cross-table and report. I was bit surprised I got runners-up 7 times in a row this year. Regards, Hiroshi Yamashita ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!
W can't play N12 if B has more than one external-lib since B will live unconditionally, as the attached example shows. Aja 2013/12/9 Hiroshi Yamashita y...@bd.mbn.or.jp In round 3 CrazyStone vs. Aya, probably Aya was expecting W to play L12 or N12, if B's corner was not 100% dead in the playouts. It seems a bug in Aya's playouts, but even if there was no bug, Aya could still reasonably expect W's L12 or N12 in the tree. Corner bent-four is not easy to handle Yesterday I turned off bent4 code for test, and forgot. Aya understands bent4 as seki. And at end of playout, bent4 shape is counted as dead. It works well, but when outside of bent4 is semeai, it does not work. Maybe when outside W lib is 5, W has to play N12? And thanks for nice look cross-table and report. I was bit surprised I got runners-up 7 times in a row this year. Regards, Hiroshi Yamashita ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go cornerBent4.sgf Description: application/go-sgf ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!
2013/12/10 Darren Cook dar...@dcook.org If you had four bent-fours, one in each corner, all dead in Japanese rules for the same colour, *and* four un-removeable ko threats, is that the position that will give the biggest difference in score between Japanese and the other scoring methods? Not sure if I understand what you meant here. If there are two groups of corner bent-four on the board, they are both dead because it is the defender that needs ko threats. In the attached example, W needs zero ko threat to kill each B group. W can just eliminate all B's ko threats, then start to kill each group one by one. Aja cornerBent4.sgf Description: application/go-sgf ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!
I made a test case with four bent-fours and seki. To break the seki at center, at least one of the bent fours must be practically solved. Would be interesting to see a Go program's behavior in this position. :) Aja 2013/12/10 Darren Cook dar...@dcook.org I am afraid can depend on rule set in use. I guess that under Japanese rules bent four is dead by definition. If you had four bent-fours, one in each corner, all dead in Japanese rules for the same colour, *and* four un-removeable ko threats, is that the position that will give the biggest difference in score between Japanese and the other scoring methods? Just curious. (I was going to apologize for being off-topic but, now I think about it, such a position might make a fine corner-case test - in any rule set!) Darren ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go 4BentFours.sgf Description: application/go-sgf ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!
Thanks Nick. I'm impressed by Martin's comments. :) Aja 2013/12/9 Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk Congratulations to Crazy Stone, winner of yesterday's 13x13 KGS bot tournament! My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/98/index.html As usual I will be grateful for your comments and corrections. Nick -- Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!
In round 3 CrazyStone vs. Aya, probably Aya was expecting W to play L12 or N12, if B's corner was not 100% dead in the playouts. It seems a bug in Aya's playouts, but even if there was no bug, Aya could still reasonably expect W's L12 or N12 in the tree. Corner bent-four is not easy to handle correctly. This game is funny http://files.gokgs.com/games/2013/12/8/AyaMC-DolBaram.sgf I believe such early-ending positions should be handed over to the referee to decide the final result. At least that's what people would do in human Go tournaments. Aja 2013/12/9 Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk Congratulations to Crazy Stone, winner of yesterday's 13x13 KGS bot tournament! My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/98/index.html As usual I will be grateful for your comments and corrections. Nick -- Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!
In round 3 CrazyStone vs. Aya, probably Aya was expecting W to play L12 or N12, if B's corner was not 100% dead in the playouts. It seems a bug in Aya's playouts, but even if there was no bug, Aya could still reasonably expect W's L12 or N12 in the tree. Corner bent-four is not easy to handle Yesterday I turned off bent4 code for test, and forgot. Aya understands bent4 as seki. And at end of playout, bent4 shape is counted as dead. It works well, but when outside of bent4 is semeai, it does not work. Maybe when outside W lib is 5, W has to play N12? And thanks for nice look cross-table and report. I was bit surprised I got runners-up 7 times in a row this year. Regards, Hiroshi Yamashita ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!
+1 On Dec 9, 2013 1:30 PM, Jim O'Flaherty jim.oflaherty...@gmail.com wrote: Nick, Is there an online viewer you could link to which would show the games in a web-browser rather than my downloading an .sgf and then having to have a local viewer work through them? Sometimes, I would like to look at these on my mobile phone. And it's trivial to bounce to a web-page. It is non-trivial for me to select a game, dl the .sgf, migrated it to where my go viewer is (assuming I have done all the steps to download an .sgf viewer for my particular mobile phone or tablet) and finally get my viewer to show it. Anyway, if there was a simple way to have a rudimentary web-page based game viewer, it would reduce the amount of effort to explore the different games from a tournament. Thank you, Jim On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk wrote: Congratulations to Crazy Stone, winner of yesterday's 13x13 KGS bot tournament! My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/98/index.html As usual I will be grateful for your comments and corrections. Nick -- Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!
On 21/11/2013 06:01, Hideki Kato wrote: Thank you for the tournament and the report, Nick. In the Annual Championship page, the positions of DolBaram and Nomitan are wrong (http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/annual/index.html). Thank you for pointing this out. I have corrected it. Best wishes, Nick Congratulations to CrazyStone! Hideki Nick Wedd: 528a6d4c.80...@maproom.co.uk: Congratulations to Crazy Stone, winner of yesterday's KGS bot tournament, with 12 wins from 12 games! My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/97/index.html As usual I will be grateful for your comments and corrections. Nick -- Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!
Thank you for the tournament and the report, Nick. In the Annual Championship page, the positions of DolBaram and Nomitan are wrong (http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/annual/index.html). Congratulations to CrazyStone! Hideki Nick Wedd: 528a6d4c.80...@maproom.co.uk: Congratulations to Crazy Stone, winner of yesterday's KGS bot tournament, with 12 wins from 12 games! My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/97/index.html As usual I will be grateful for your comments and corrections. Nick -- Hideki Kato mailto:hideki_ka...@ybb.ne.jp ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!
I don't think it is wrong. I do think it is inadvisable. You are trusting the server's score-counter to count in the way that you expect, when there are dead groups on the board and it can reasonably assume that there are no dead groups on the board. For instance, in the position shown, it counted B2 as a point for White, even while it was regarding the black stones at C1 and C3 as alive. Did your code _know_ it was going to do that? I think the scoring rules in the clean-up phase are pretty clear (and even simpler than in the normal playing phase). After two consecutive passes in the clean-up phase it says that all stones are regarded as alive. It is just dangerous to continue play only to further clarify the situation. I think it's more likely that you might lose on time because of a network lag or some yet undiscovered bug in your engine (or the server/gtpClient) than that you might lose because the server will count wrong. Especially when playing with a cluster there are plenty of possibilities to crash :/ This is at least the reason why Gomorra also passes as early as possible, when the game is won following the KGS rules. And in the past the tournament report often said about such games that Gomorra failed to correctly cleaning up the board, but won anyway. This was for the reason given above. Congratulations to CrazyStone! Thank you Nick for the report! - Lars -- Lars Schaefers Computer Engineering Group of Prof. Dr. Marco Platzner Paderborn Center for Parallel Computing, University of Paderborn Pohlweg 47-49, 33098 Paderborn, Germany Tel: +49 (0)5251 60 4341, Fax: +49 (0)5251 60 5377 Office: Building O 3.119 ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!
Thanks Nick, as you ask both programmers to handle clean up correctly (round 2): I would say NiceGo did. It is by design, that it passes for the end of game if it counts a win with the clean-up rules. If you think, this is wrong handling, please explain. Of cause we want to do good handling of the clean-up phase. Our opening as black is really strange (round 3). We open much better with fewer playouts:) Therefore the other thread about strength vs. playouts:) Detlef Am Montag, den 18.11.2013, 19:41 + schrieb Nick Wedd: Congratulations to Crazy Stone, winner of yesterday's KGS bot tournament, with 12 wins from 12 games! My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/97/index.html As usual I will be grateful for your comments and corrections. Nick ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!
On 18/11/2013 21:29, Detlef Schmicker wrote: Thanks Nick, as you ask both programmers to handle clean up correctly (round 2): I would say NiceGo did. It is by design, that it passes for the end of game if it counts a win with the clean-up rules. If you think, this is wrong handling, please explain. Of cause we want to do good handling of the clean-up phase. I don't think it is wrong. I do think it is inadvisable. You are trusting the server's score-counter to count in the way that you expect, when there are dead groups on the board and it can reasonably assume that there are no dead groups on the board. For instance, in the position shown, it counted B2 as a point for White, even while it was regarding the black stones at C1 and C3 as alive. Did your code _know_ it was going to do that? Our opening as black is really strange (round 3). We open much better with fewer playouts:) Therefore the other thread about strength vs. playouts:) It worked well against Orego :-) Nick Detlef Am Montag, den 18.11.2013, 19:41 + schrieb Nick Wedd: Congratulations to Crazy Stone, winner of yesterday's KGS bot tournament, with 12 wins from 12 games! My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/97/index.html As usual I will be grateful for your comments and corrections. Nick -- Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone!
Congratulations to Crazy Stone! The two games between CS and Zen are quite exciting. Thanks for the report, Nick. I hope you'll get well soon. Aja 2013/1/15 Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk Congratulations to Crazy Stone, undefeated winner of Sunday's 19x19 bot tournament! My (very short) report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/**past/89/index.htmlhttp://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/89/index.html As usual, I welcome your comments and corrections. Nick -- Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk __**_ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/computer-gohttp://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
