Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
That is the reason to ONLY run windows software in Parallels. You make a clean install once set it up the way you want. Save that file as master. Copy the file master file. Now run the copy until it gets wonky and toss it. Copy the master file again and start over. No prolonged reinstall. Plus if you have software that doesn't play well with other software you can create a one purpose windows environment without the other things that might interfere. Who cares if you get a virus. Just be good about saving data files in separate drive from the windows install. On 6/3/07, mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Didn't happen for macworld. No self destruct or MS-SS showing up in black boots and batons. And they alerted the entire world via internet and print they had violated the EULA. At worst, I think the software will install fine, run great and get infected via web pages like many windows installs. Mike On 6/3/07, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On reflection, the proper way to think of the EULA might be this: You, the consumer, have purchased this software and we, the provider, will support you in your use of it, provided you agree to the following terms. If you don't agree, we're not a party to it, we're not liable for anything that happens and you're on your own. Hardly. This is software that phones home and can be remotely disabled if it appears its terms have been violated. I would expect that at best the software will self destruct and MS will tell you that you have no recourse. At worst MS may start following in the footsteps of the RIAA to go after individual customers. Unlike the RIAA, if you are misusing MS's software you are operating a beacon that can be traced right back to you. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
That is the reason to ONLY run windows software in Parallels. You make a clean install once set it up the way you want. Save that file as master. Copy the file master file. Now run the copy until it gets wonky and toss it. Copy the master file again and start over. No prolonged reinstall. You are not thinking about the new environment. What you describe would work in the old-style mode of operation where the software was autonomous. But Windows is no longer autonomous. It frequently phones home for permission to keep running. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
FYI, the IEEE requires me to assign anything that I publish in their journals (for me, a lot) to them or I don't get published in their journals. And it makes sense that IEEE does. IEEE's goal is to distribute what you write via a variety of means (using known and as yet unknown technologies) and I presume your motivation for writing is to have your work as widely distributed as possible. At the time they came up with this policy there was considerable discussion of what was the appropriate thing to do. IEEE typically loses money on its publications. IEEE's publishing goal is the dissemination of knowledge, not making a profit. Most of their publications have no advertising. With other publishers it is not so clear. For example there was a long writer's strike when the Washington Post tried something similar and the writers were justified in their objection. The Post wanted additional rights and did not want to pay an additional fee. (I don't recall how that dispute concluded.) * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
Didn't happen for macworld. No self destruct or MS-SS showing up in black boots and batons. And they alerted the entire world via internet and print they had violated the EULA. At worst, I think the software will install fine, run great and get infected via web pages like many windows installs. Mike On 6/3/07, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On reflection, the proper way to think of the EULA might be this: You, the consumer, have purchased this software and we, the provider, will support you in your use of it, provided you agree to the following terms. If you don't agree, we're not a party to it, we're not liable for anything that happens and you're on your own. Hardly. This is software that phones home and can be remotely disabled if it appears its terms have been violated. I would expect that at best the software will self destruct and MS will tell you that you have no recourse. At worst MS may start following in the footsteps of the RIAA to go after individual customers. Unlike the RIAA, if you are misusing MS's software you are operating a beacon that can be traced right back to you. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
Now I am not completely familiar with contracts such as these, but I am pretty sure the narrowly written contracts were the result of legal advice companies got when they had to battle former employees who took or attempted to patent items that were developed for companies on company time and with company money for private enterprise. My dad worked for the FORMER ATT which developed a lot of items that are essential for todays technology. The basic design of the phone was an open patent. They had to share their technology with companies such as GTT and ITT as part of providing phone service. That allowed GTT and ITT to compete against the monopoly (legal one) Now on a different side, I expect to battle a former employee the moment we cancel the web contract with them. They claim (this was made before they left) that they had copyrighted the web page and it's contents for themselves. This was a web page developed primarily on church time, with church funds and with the help of the church. (I am pretty sure much of the costs they incurred were declared as church donations.) Now I would never want to go to court, but there is no way the person can claim sole ownership of our website. I am not saying the contracts many employees sign are ethical (They are legal by the way) but many of them are this way because too many folks played fast and loose with their own ethics. Stewart At 08:19 PM 5/31/2007, you wrote: I am reluctant to enter into this discussion, since I am conflicted about the issues. Were I 40 years younger, I would completely agree with Tom Piwowar that we all need to be honest as well as obeying the law -- all the stuff taught in Civics course in High School (never mind that my high school adviser told me that the civics course was for those not going to college). But over the years I have seen many changes. Today, employers don't care at all about expertise nor loyalty from their employers nor do they care much about the desire of the customer unless it affects the bottom line of their company. Achieving a monopoly is paramount to them. As a person whose interests spans both engineering and artistic endeavors, I see copyright and patent law from more than one perspective. On the one hand corporations argue that they are protecting the innovation of the musician, the artist, the producers of radio video materials, and the writer from exploitation by others. On the other hand, they prohibit many of these from actually engaging in copyright or patent protection. (As an example: many large engineering firms require all employees to assign in advance all copyright or patent rights to their employer from anywhere to ten years to life -- even if they quit the company and find another job -- regardless of whether or not these relate to the work of the employee. Thus, an engineer in said company would loose all profit for a literary novel he/she might write publish after quitting the job that has no technical information whatsoever in it.) (A second example: simply read http://www.seas.gwu.edu/~carroll/barroll/ My web page is a result of much effort regarding a composer of music. After his death, music publishers copyrighted his music without regard to his wishes or those of his family. Their purpose was to prevent other publishers from making a profit by republishing Barroll's music. Today, the composer is largely unknown and his estate receives no royalties because of these copyrights.) In face of this one-sided perversion of copyright and patent law, about which the individual can't do much, what is to be done? I no longer believe that all law regarding copyright and patents should be obeyed by the individual for his own personal use where no harm is accrued to the patent or copyright holder. If there is a real harm, then of course I will honor the law and denounce those who break it. But first think: the Supreme Court says that an individual has a right to make an archival copy of anything in his possession: the current law makes it illegal to exercise that right by using someone else's software to do so. Is this latter law what we should obey? Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/
Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
If we all avoided software from convicted predatory monopolists it would only take a few years for things to get better. With competition and alternatives you would probably not be facing an EULA that you find so objectionable. Yes you have a problem. You should work to solve that problem. But you should do it by ethical means. That will solve the real problem. You don't know how much I would like to agree totally with this posting. I've read a lot about the Widerstand--the German resistance to Hitler--and how they stood up to evil, banal and otherwise, and the price they paid. But the problem I have with the banality of evil argument (with respect to EULA's and similar practices) is that many of us have few choices about software with unpalatable EULAs or other distressing features. It's wonderful to avoid dealing with companies that have dodgy ethics practices; indeed, there are things I won't buy because of country of manufacture, means of manufacture, or the company that made the object. BUT--some of us can't afford to wait the few years for things to get better with EULAs, and similar practices, in the computer/ software industries, before we buy and use the products of the offending companies. Example: The employer who demands a resume and a letter of application in Microsoft Word, period. Not Open Office, not PDF, not a text file; he wants Microsoft Word. If you have anything obviously wrong with your application package--such as a resume in the wrong format--it goes in the recycle bin immediately, no matter how great your qualifications are, or how well you could have done the job. Most people applying for jobs really need that job--I know I do!--and can't afford to wait until the power of the monopolists is broken, years from now. What are we to do in the mean time? Realistically, what other choice do we have besides using Microsoft products? There are many other examples of this kind--some of them have already been mentioned in this thread. As for expecting workers to valiantly stand up against unfair employment practices and bad workplace conditions, that's easier said than done. It's great if you have a large professional organization fighting for you, or a union standing up for you, but many of us don't have that kind of protection. Are we cooperating with the banality of evil if, for example, we're illegally classified as a contractor (with low pay, no benefits, and no job security) and we keep going back to work, because it's the only job we can get? Is this the same thing as keeping the trains to the gas chambers running on time? The real problem is the system that lets corporations accumulate this much power in the first place. I'm not arguing for communism or for the abolition of private property or anything like that, but until someone puts a leash around the major corporations, we'll continue to be faced with unpleasant, capricious EULAs--and worse. The REAL lesson of the Widerstand--the German resistance to Hitler--is to never let the really bad guys get that kind of power in the first place, or to put on the brakes before the domination of the bad actors is total. Reminder: it matters what kind of leadership we have in Washington, and how you vote. --Constance Warner * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
How is this even possible? Talking about installing a program on a computer has gone to talking about german resistance in WWII? In a few years are we going to read the diary of a young girl who lived with her family in the hidden basement of someone's home running vista home inside WINE in fear of the SSMS? It's a program...that you paid for...on a computer in your own house. This isn't a discussion about the nature of true evil. I bought some toys for my young son the other day, the 'EULA' said not for children under 3. He's just turned 2...should I fear the Hasbro secret police? Mike On 6/1/07, Constance Warner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You don't know how much I would like to agree totally with this posting. I've read a lot about the Widerstand--the German resistance to Hitler--and how they stood up to evil, banal and otherwise, and the price they paid. But the problem I have with the banality of evil argument (with respect to EULA's and similar practices) is that many of us have few choices about software with unpalatable EULAs or other distressing features. It's wonderful to avoid dealing with companies that have dodgy ethics practices; indeed, there are things I won't buy because of country of manufacture, means of manufacture, or the company that made the object. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
Thank you all for a really interesting conversation here. But I can't help mentioning that, with the lawyers in the justice department and the judges in our courts packed with radical right wing corporate ideologues, are the laws and the courts based on morality or rational thought any more? John Duncan Yoyo wrote: Given that EULA's aren't all that enforceable I'd say go ahead and try to install it in parallels. If it works fine. If it doesn't work the reason nobody wants to support it because you haven't paid enough money. MS will always take your money for an upgrade later if you really need support. On 5/25/07, John DeCarlo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/25/07, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, my question is: What, precisely, are all the things that could go wrong, were I to violate the EULA? Have we gotten to the point where every crime is just another a business decision? If the benefit exceeds the fine or the probability of getting caught is not high then is there anything you would not do? Well, until the EULA is given a solid legal standing, it is hard to argue that violating a EULA is illegal. It is certainly grounds for a contract dispute, but those have gone both ways in the courts, with the user winning sometimes (I has no real choice in the matter but to accept the EULA, so it wasn't a valid contract) and the company winning sometimes (the person could have refused to install the software). So, right now, violating a EULA is not illegal. -- John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
Except for all the radical left wing nutjob judges that pack our courts. Not much rational thought either way. Mike On 6/1/07, Jordman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you all for a really interesting conversation here. But I can't help mentioning that, with the lawyers in the justice department and the judges in our courts packed with radical right wing corporate ideologues, are the laws and the courts based on morality or rational thought any more? John Duncan Yoyo wrote: Given that EULA's aren't all that enforceable I'd say go ahead and try to install it in parallels. If it works fine. If it doesn't work the reason nobody wants to support it because you haven't paid enough money. MS will always take your money for an upgrade later if you really need support. On 5/25/07, John DeCarlo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/25/07, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, my question is: What, precisely, are all the things that could go wrong, were I to violate the EULA? Have we gotten to the point where every crime is just another a business decision? If the benefit exceeds the fine or the probability of getting caught is not high then is there anything you would not do? Well, until the EULA is given a solid legal standing, it is hard to argue that violating a EULA is illegal. It is certainly grounds for a contract dispute, but those have gone both ways in the courts, with the user winning sometimes (I has no real choice in the matter but to accept the EULA, so it wasn't a valid contract) and the company winning sometimes (the person could have refused to install the software). So, right now, violating a EULA is not illegal. -- John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
I will go one step farther. The left is but a mirror image of the right! Stewart At 12:15 PM 6/1/2007, you wrote: Except for all the radical left wing nutjob judges that pack our courts. Not much rational thought either way. Mike On 6/1/07, Jordman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you all for a really interesting conversation here. But I can't help mentioning that, with the lawyers in the justice department and the judges in our courts packed with radical right wing corporate ideologues, are the laws and the courts based on morality or rational thought any more? John Duncan Yoyo wrote: Given that EULA's aren't all that enforceable I'd say go ahead and try to install it in parallels. If it works fine. If it doesn't work the reason nobody wants to support it because you haven't paid enough money. MS will always take your money for an upgrade later if you really need support. On 5/25/07, John DeCarlo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/25/07, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, my question is: What, precisely, are all the things that could go wrong, were I to violate the EULA? Have we gotten to the point where every crime is just another a business decision? If the benefit exceeds the fine or the probability of getting caught is not high then is there anything you would not do? Well, until the EULA is given a solid legal standing, it is hard to argue that violating a EULA is illegal. It is certainly grounds for a contract dispute, but those have gone both ways in the courts, with the user winning sometimes (I has no real choice in the matter but to accept the EULA, so it wasn't a valid contract) and the company winning sometimes (the person could have refused to install the software). So, right now, violating a EULA is not illegal. -- John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command:
Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
If we want to do something about unfair practices in the computer industry, we have to do something about the monopolistic corporations. It matters how you vote, and what kind of leadership we have in Washington. Yes. People who don't vote because it doesn't matter. People who vote for wingnuts because their mullah tells them how to vote. Legislators who abdicate their oversight responsibilities to an out of control executive. Media that don't do investigative reporting and only parrot press releases (like WMD). Media management that won't stand behind their investigative reporters (what happened to Dan Rather?). People who go along to get along. People who undervalue themselves. Yes, that is all banal evil. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
Tom, I couldn't let this pass without comment: Please demonstrate. Buy some software, retail package or download, your choice. Start the installation. Decline the EULA. Return the product and try to get your money back. Let us know how that goes. This is a hot topic in the Linux community. Here is a recent article (Jan 2007) http://community.linux.com/community/07/01/03/227237.shtml?tid=12 Most of what is written on the topic is about getting a refund on the Windows part of a computer purchase when you can't decline getting Windows on the hard drive. This situation is a bit more difficult as some vendors insist you return the computer too and get a full refund. Getting a refund on the retail version of Windows should be easier, hence nobody is writing about it. In years past my office manager got a refund direct from Microsoft on an Office upgrade. We had already installed it. She hated it becasue it was so much slower than what she had been using. I told her it was futile to even try. She proudly told me it was easy. MS sent us a check. As I recall we didn't even have to return the software. They accepted her promise to discard it. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
!?!? You're kidding, right? Morality, ethics can be based on not wanting to hurt others, or it can be based on the notion that non-complicance by even a significant few can poison the well, so we should comply. AFAI can tell, contract and civil law is neither but based on the idea that cooperation is mutually beneficial but the ultimate aim is still the success of our own ventures so if I can afford the law suit and the bad reputation, I can make the decision (one which I may legally required to due in the case of fiduciary responsibility to my investors) to break a contract. Won't loose sleep at night. Unsafe products falls into both of the first two categories. EULA complicance seems a lot more like the third. Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, I don't violate EULA's, at least not consciously. But with all that legal and technical gobbledygook, I can't ever be 100% sure. Good point. But alas, that's not what we are discussing. The topic of the moment is deliberately violating specific terms of an EULA by purchasing the low-cost version of a product and using it in a way that the EULA only allows for the more-expensive version of the product. I'm sad to see us at such a moral low. Did you read about the Chinese toothpaste? Is it okay to save a nickel per unit by substituting a toxic compound for a safe compound? As a business decision it would be not okay if it caused instant death, but it would be okay if it was a slow-acting poison because then it would be hard to trace it back to the maker. How far do we go with evil being strictly a business decision? I think that if we go very far in this direction it makes all the basics of life untenable. Imagine having to take a vast testing kit with you every time you go grocery shoping. It may be a wing nuts paradise, but I don't want to live there. Today's news is that the Chinese official in charge of regulating these things has been convicted of taking bribes -- resulting in a penalty of death. Normally I'm not inclined to support a death penalty in any circumstances, but desperate means may be necessary whan a society has allowed things to go too far. Are we there yet? How about the guy with the drug-resistant TB? He was on the no-fly list so he booked on a small airline and flew through a Canadian airport. Is that okay? * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
I am reluctant to enter into this discussion, since I am conflicted about the issues. Were I 40 years younger, I would completely agree with Tom Piwowar that we all need to be honest as well as obeying the law -- all the stuff taught in Civics course in High School (never mind that my high school adviser told me that the civics course was for those not going to college). But over the years I have seen many changes. Today, employers don't care at all about expertise nor loyalty from their employers nor do they care much about the desire of the customer unless it affects the bottom line of their company. Achieving a monopoly is paramount to them. As a person whose interests spans both engineering and artistic endeavors, I see copyright and patent law from more than one perspective. On the one hand corporations argue that they are protecting the innovation of the musician, the artist, the producers of radio video materials, and the writer from exploitation by others. On the other hand, they prohibit many of these from actually engaging in copyright or patent protection. (As an example: many large engineering firms require all employees to assign in advance all copyright or patent rights to their employer from anywhere to ten years to life -- even if they quit the company and find another job -- regardless of whether or not these relate to the work of the employee. Thus, an engineer in said company would loose all profit for a literary novel he/she might write publish after quitting the job that has no technical information whatsoever in it.) (A second example: simply read http://www.seas.gwu.edu/~carroll/barroll/ My web page is a result of much effort regarding a composer of music. After his death, music publishers copyrighted his music without regard to his wishes or those of his family. Their purpose was to prevent other publishers from making a profit by republishing Barroll's music. Today, the composer is largely unknown and his estate receives no royalties because of these copyrights.) In face of this one-sided perversion of copyright and patent law, about which the individual can't do much, what is to be done? I no longer believe that all law regarding copyright and patents should be obeyed by the individual for his own personal use where no harm is accrued to the patent or copyright holder. If there is a real harm, then of course I will honor the law and denounce those who break it. But first think: the Supreme Court says that an individual has a right to make an archival copy of anything in his possession: the current law makes it illegal to exercise that right by using someone else's software to do so. Is this latter law what we should obey? Tom Piwowar wrote: Have we gotten to the point where every crime is just another a business decision? If the benefit exceeds the fine or the probability of getting caught is not high then is there anything you would not do? * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
On 5/30/07, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Me, I would say that the store is being immoral. And the EULA wouldn't hold up in most courts of law. And I would say the moral stand is to serve whatever food you buy from them to whomever you want. So you are going to take the good old two wrongs make a right defense. As Bill Gates once said If we tell them they have to put a ham sandwich in every box, they have to put a ham sandwich in every box. Your obligation is to read the EULA and according to the terms of sale, if you don't like the EULA you return the product and they give you your money back. OK, you can believe anything Bill Gates tells you. Great. I choose instead to follow the law of the United States. Not the words of Bill Gates. You, as usual, will choose your own way. In actual reality, Constance has it basically right. 1. You need to know what the law is. Right now, the law surrounding EULAs is muddy at best. In most of the courts in the US, the rulings have been that no one has to abide by shrink wrap EULAs. Because it violates basic contract law, primarily. However, two federal districts have ruled in favor of shrink wrap EULAs. That is important to know, to be informed. 2. What the seller or licensor wants is not necessarily relevant. The seller can put illegal or immoral things in a EULA, after all. Especially since it is so complex. Lots of property in the U.S. was encumbered by seller-specified requirements that the property never be sold to blacks. It was even legal and enforceable for a long time. Was it ever moral? No. The same could be said for not using an OS in a virtual machine. It is clear, for instance, that Richard Stallman is a very moral person. He sincerely believes that information should be free and works hard to get that message across. Unfortunately for him, there is a lot of U.S. (and other countries) law that enslaves information. Immoral? Yes. -- John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
Tom, I couldn't let this pass without comment: On 5/30/07, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As Bill Gates once said If we tell them they have to put a ham sandwich in every box, they have to put a ham sandwich in every box. Your obligation is to read the EULA and according to the terms of sale, if you don't like the EULA you return the product and they give you your money back. Please demonstrate. Buy some software, retail package or download, your choice. Start the installation. Decline the EULA. Return the product and try to get your money back. Let us know how that goes. When you let go of morals, you let go of civilization. True, but it should also be said that morality is not the same as the law. There's plenty of precedent for civil disobedience. And there have been many times where the moral act is to break the law: Helping slaves escape, sitting at the front of the bus...And there are even more cases where breaking an unfair contract is justified. When our civilization falls, it won't be because Harvey violated Microsoft's EULA. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
On 5/30/07, P Yasuda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When our civilization falls, it won't be because Harvey violated Microsoft's EULA. Heck, I would argue that if everyone complied with Microsoft EULAs, then our civilization would have already fallen. (It is one of the sure signs of the Apocalypse - Google it and see.) -- John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
There are plenty of examples of contracts that we not able to negotiate, that are still enforceable. Negotiation is not a legal part of contract law. Did you enter into it with full knowledge is. Stewart Full knowledge of the EULA? Well, that's part of the point, isn't it? Does ANYBODY know all the language that's in the typical EULA before they agree to it? I used to try to read every word of every EULA before I signed off on it, but I finally gave up. The prose on those things reads like the wastebasket shreddings of a major law firm, reassembled in no particular order, combined with extracts from the specs of a nuclear power plant. I mean, have you noticed any EULA's lately where the software company really tried to make it easy for the customer to understand all that legalese? (Maybe other people are buying different software than I've been using lately, with EULA's that the average customer actually can understand on first reading. . . .) And, of course, once you've bought the software, you don't have all that much choice, not in a world where--to take an obvious example--many institutions demand documents in Microsoft Word. (Not compatible documents, not equivalent documents, but genuine Word.) No, I don't violate EULA's, at least not consciously. But with all that legal and technical gobbledygook, I can't ever be 100% sure. --Constance *** * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
Breaking a contract is a violation of civil law (perhaps) not criminal. The distinction is huge and is practical. As a fairly idealistic and even ideological person, this angst seems misplaced. Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, my question is: What, precisely, are all the things that could go wrong, were I to violate the EULA? Have we gotten to the point where every crime is just another a business decision? If the benefit exceeds the fine or the probability of getting caught is not high then is there anything you would not do? * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
Given that EULA's aren't all that enforceable I'd say go ahead and try to install it in parallels. If it works fine. If it doesn't work the reason nobody wants to support it because you haven't paid enough money. MS will always take your money for an upgrade later if you really need support. On 5/25/07, John DeCarlo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/25/07, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, my question is: What, precisely, are all the things that could go wrong, were I to violate the EULA? Have we gotten to the point where every crime is just another a business decision? If the benefit exceeds the fine or the probability of getting caught is not high then is there anything you would not do? Well, until the EULA is given a solid legal standing, it is hard to argue that violating a EULA is illegal. It is certainly grounds for a contract dispute, but those have gone both ways in the courts, with the user winning sometimes (I has no real choice in the matter but to accept the EULA, so it wasn't a valid contract) and the company winning sometimes (the person could have refused to install the software). So, right now, violating a EULA is not illegal. -- John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
It'll work, there is nothing written into the code that keeps you from doing it. Mike On 5/28/07, John Duncan Yoyo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Given that EULA's aren't all that enforceable I'd say go ahead and try to install it in parallels. If it works fine. If it doesn't work the reason nobody wants to support it because you haven't paid enough money. MS will always take your money for an upgrade later if you really need support. On 5/25/07, John DeCarlo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/25/07, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, my question is: What, precisely, are all the things that could go wrong, were I to violate the EULA? Have we gotten to the point where every crime is just another a business decision? If the benefit exceeds the fine or the probability of getting caught is not high then is there anything you would not do? Well, until the EULA is given a solid legal standing, it is hard to argue that violating a EULA is illegal. It is certainly grounds for a contract dispute, but those have gone both ways in the courts, with the user winning sometimes (I has no real choice in the matter but to accept the EULA, so it wasn't a valid contract) and the company winning sometimes (the person could have refused to install the software). So, right now, violating a EULA is not illegal. -- John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
EULA's get into contract law not criminal law. What is a contract worth if you are not going to keep it. Or to echo Tom's word, is it just a business decision. Would you want to shop at a grocery store where they view contracts as something only to be kept if it is to their advantage? Would you want to eat at a restaurant if they decided to keep the health regulations if it was only to their advantage? It comes down to a matter of ethics. Can I name you a number of companies that have shown a lack of ethics because they made business decisions? (Tyco, Cendant, Adelphia, Enron, MCI/Worldcom to name a few of the better ones.) Now the corollary comes up, what is the ethical standard of an EULA that restricts the software from being used in a normally useful and seemingly legal way? It is an ethical minefield out there. Just remember this old axiom. Two wrongs don't make a right, but two Wrights made an airplane. Stewart At 12:36 PM 5/25/2007, you wrote: So, my question is: What, precisely, are all the things that could go wrong, were I to violate the EULA? Have we gotten to the point where every crime is just another a business decision? If the benefit exceeds the fine or the probability of getting caught is not high then is there anything you would not do? Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace Ozark, AL SL 82 * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
On 5/28/07, Rev. Stewart Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: EULA's get into contract law not criminal law. What is a contract worth if you are not going to keep it. Or to echo Tom's word, is it just a business decision. Except the legal issue resolves around whether a EULA is a valid contract or not. As long as you have no right to negotiate at all, the standard legal answer is No, this is not a valid contract. The reason some EULAs might have some validity is legislation passed in favor of software companies. I am all in favor of keeping contracts. Especially the ones you have a choice about. Also important are the implied contracts, where I pay you for something of value and you agree to provide the value or refund my money. Unfortunately, most software companies don't want to even go the minimum distance. Once you have a valid legal structure, then you can get into the ethics. -- John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
OK I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night. The moment you click an EULA, it is a legally binding contract between you and the producer of the product. Wether you like it or not does not matter. I do not like them anymore than you do, but in a court of law, it would still be upheld unless proven otherwise. There are plenty of examples of contracts that we not able to negotiate, that are still enforceable. Negotiation is not a legal part of contract law. Did you enter into it with full knowledge is. Stewart At 12:50 PM 5/28/2007, you wrote: On 5/28/07, Rev. Stewart Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: EULA's get into contract law not criminal law. What is a contract worth if you are not going to keep it. Or to echo Tom's word, is it just a business decision. Except the legal issue resolves around whether a EULA is a valid contract or not. As long as you have no right to negotiate at all, the standard legal answer is No, this is not a valid contract. The reason some EULAs might have some validity is legislation passed in favor of software companies. I am all in favor of keeping contracts. Especially the ones you have a choice about. Also important are the implied contracts, where I pay you for something of value and you agree to provide the value or refund my money. Unfortunately, most software companies don't want to even go the minimum distance. Once you have a valid legal structure, then you can get into the ethics. -- John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace Ozark, AL SL 82 * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
Then take them to court I would be interested in the outcome. Stewart At 01:03 PM 5/28/2007, you wrote: On 5/28/07, Rev. Stewart Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The moment you click an EULA, it is a legally binding contract between you and the producer of the product. Wether you like it or not does not matter. I do not like them anymore than you do, but in a court of law, it would still be upheld unless proven otherwise. Not true in all jurisdictions. Sorry, but that does not happen to be the case. -- John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace Ozark, AL SL 82 * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
Have there been cases where the software developer succeeded in suing for EULA violations? State? Federal? Foreign? * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
On 5/28/07, Rev. Stewart Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then take them to court I would be interested in the outcome. Actually, some people do that. As usual with the US legal system, the court and lawyer costs are the biggest consideration. There are plenty of similar precedents over the years. Like the ticket you get with your dry cleaning that says on the back they aren't responsible for anything that happens to your clothing. Or the waiver you sign when you get on a boat that says you can't sue them for any reason. There are plenty of examples where lawyers make all kinds of claims that don't hold up in court - they do so just for the purpose of discouraging people from getting their legal rights. -- John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
One of the sins that comprised the gist of what was once said as: Sir! Have you no shame? Mark Snyder -Original Message- So, my question is: What, precisely, are all the things that could go wrong, were I to violate the EULA? Have we gotten to the point where every crime is just another a business decision? If the benefit exceeds the fine or the probability of getting caught is not high then is there anything you would not do? * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] The Consequences of EULA Violation
On 5/25/07, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, my question is: What, precisely, are all the things that could go wrong, were I to violate the EULA? Have we gotten to the point where every crime is just another a business decision? If the benefit exceeds the fine or the probability of getting caught is not high then is there anything you would not do? Well, until the EULA is given a solid legal standing, it is hard to argue that violating a EULA is illegal. It is certainly grounds for a contract dispute, but those have gone both ways in the courts, with the user winning sometimes (I has no real choice in the matter but to accept the EULA, so it wasn't a valid contract) and the company winning sometimes (the person could have refused to install the software). So, right now, violating a EULA is not illegal. -- John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
