Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

E Mail wrote:
-Caveat Lector-
[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes:
>I understand, some persons are simply unable to bear the discomfort
that
>can result from exposure to the ideas of others,
Yes, it can be difficult to look at other ideas,
but if you don't you are stuck in a rut, and learning, learning is limited
to what you believe. Some times your beliefs should be challenged,
when they are you see the other way people can look at things, and your
beliefs might get stronger. Are some of the people on the list, so
insecure, they have to resort to name calling. Let us get back to
the topic, and to references..and follow the rules that this list was built
on...no emailing.
and are especially
>confounded when those ideas directly challenge their own world view.
It
>is
>probably better that you filter, rather than overextend.
>>>AMEN
maybe you and squawk ought to start your own list,
then you could expose
each other to the truth a
Well, the truth or even discussing another point of view is not
welcomed here, at least not on this subject. It appears in looking
back at the archive people have drawn this Hawk guy into a conversation,
by saying stuff like why aren't you answeringwell not in those words
but means the same and when he does, when anyone else does, with a different
point of view you attack.
and logic of your ideas
>>Logic...yes logic is needed on this list or at least with this
discussion. I hate name calling of any kind, and it looks like that is
what is expected on this list. If someone has a different point of
view you knock him/her down. You have to learn to take your blinders
off
and look at the whole picture...like different mores...and the like.
What happened in the past can not be judged correctly by today's mores.
bet you even think...that we should apologize...going to another war here,
for the bombing of Hiroshima.
and you would not be lonely because you would have
each other.
>>>and probably a lot more. You answering with your rudeness
is what I meant by Kris setting the tone, for this listabusive, narrow
minded.at least with this subject and how this discussion
has been going.

grinnin' dis time,
chris

>Wait !! Are you the same Kris...that has this list.now I am sounding
paranoid.and you knowgrinning can be done by even an idiot...G>
lol
See what I mean...this is how you sound...abusive.

>Your minds seem to be closed to any learning..all SOME of you want
to do, is find a clique and go by that. There is no basis for name
calling here.
>>Remember me sending this following post in reply to someone writing
this.
I would say that this list is in deep trouble---again.
Well I thought things quieted down, but I was wrong, people have
to keep badgering one another and it isn't from the newbies.
> >
Remember me writing this in one of my previous posts(trying to
get back onto the topic...just watch..for name calling)
>>>Well, I wasn't wrong, was I ? Tried to get it
back on to the topic and what happens ? People get called names
again !!!
I would say that this list is in deep trouble---again.
> >
>Right !! Let us get back to the topic..at hand.
 I do want to learn and will, if we can
get back to the points at hand.
Now we're doing it with some other guys who think
some slavery is okay?
I never said it was okay..try to relate to the past. Can
we condemn those, the society for different mores. It was not
necessarily wrong at
that time.
Carlene
(trying to get back onto the topic...just watch..for name
calling)

[CTRL] [Fwd: Fwd: We Have a Dream!]]

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

Hi

I just mailed this out on my list, and after looking at this, seems
appropriate to be on this list as well.

"Carlene M. Wojahn" wrote:

  This is from the "Outrage" list...
 
 WE HAVE A DREAM!
 
  We have a dream.  Someday, in this great land of ours, people,
  including even lawyers and political activists, will come to
  believe character really does matter.
 
  We have a dream. We will no longer deify people who plagiarize their
  doctoral
  theses.  If a man takes the title of Reverend, we'll expect him
  to honor at least a few of the Ten Commandments.  If a married
  man competes with Hugh Hefner for sexual conquests, we won't feel
  compelled to listen to his moral wisdom.
 
  We have a dream.  Someday, black churches in America will not be
  manipulated as institutional power bases by ambitious black men.
  We're starting to worry that the good reverends are using the
  Borgia Popes as their role models.  We dream that the day will
  come when lawyers and politicians stop cynically using race as
  leverage to increase their wealth and power.
 
  We have a dream.  Someday, quiet people leading lives of
  unheralded virtue and real productivity will be honored.  Someday
  all people, black and white, will realize the real heroes aren't
  the ones giving speeches filled with bombastic rhetoric.  Real
  heroes are quietly doing real work: building houses, writing
  software code, nursing the elderly, parenting the young -- the
  whole cornucopia of human endeavor that actually results in
  better lives for real people.
 
  We have a dream.  Someday holidays will really matter, instead of
  serving as crass, meaningless tools of political correctness.
  People will actually give thanks on Thanksgiving.  Christians
  will actually celebrate the birth of Christ on Christmas.  New
  Year's Day will mean something other than recovering from a
  hangover and watching football on the tube.
 
  We have a dream.  Someday Americans will realize there's
  something perverse about the idea of devoting an equal amount of
  time, and supposedly reverence, to:
  - a single civil rights leader
  - all of America's presidents including founding fathers like
George Washington and Thomas Jefferson
  - and the thousands of men and women who have died defending the
  United States in wartime.
 
  Yet we have one day for Presidents Day, one day for Memorial Day,
  and one day to celebrate the life of Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
  We have a dream.  Although we're as sentimental as the next fool,
  we hope that someday we'll all realize early death does not
  qualify one for sainthood.  Whether it be John F. Kennedy,
  Marilyn Monroe, Elvis Presley, Princess Diana, or Martin Luther
  King, dying young may be the road to legend, but hardly a
  guarantee that the life was worth remembering, much
  less celebrating.
 
  Our final dream is that the day will come in America when one can
  criticize black cultural icons without being labeled a racist.
  We call this the impossible dream.
 
  ---
 
  We first published this essay last year to mark the celebration
  of Martin Luther King Day. We plan on publishing it annually
  until America begins celebrating a Come-Back-to-your-Senses
  holiday.
 
  ---
 
  RAGEBACK!
 
  Tell us what you think about the celebration of MLK Day
  http://www.theoutrage.com/rageback/99-01-15.html#soundoff
 
  Read what others have to say:
  http://www.theoutrage.com/rageback/99-01-15.html#rage
 
   
 
  QUOTE OF THE DAY!
 
  I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in
  a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin
  but by the content of their character.
 
  -- Martin Luther King (1929-68), speech in Washington, August 27,
  1963
 
  ---
 
  Subscribing and Unsubscribing
  
  If for any reason you need to change your mailing address just
  unsubscribe your old mailing address and subscribe your new
  address. You can subscribe and unsubscribe at:
  http://www.athensnm.net/lists
 
  When unsubscribing, remember you must use the same address you
  used to sign up for the list.
 
  -

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
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Let us please be civil and as a

Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

YnrChyldzWyld wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Sno0wl wrote:
 I would say that this list is in deep trouble---again.
 

Since you said new, and I believe I am the newest,  it appears that you are
talking about me.  I would say it is because of name calling, I do want to learn if
we can get back to the points at hand.




 Didn't we go through all this already with the guys who thought some Nazis were
 "nice."  Now we're doing it with some other guys who think some slavery is okay?

I never said it was okay..try to relate to the past.  Can we condemn those, the
society for different mores.  It was not necessarily wrong at that time.

Carlene
(trying to get back onto the topic...just watch..for name calling)


 and who are doubletalking about racism?

 I am not talking about racism, and I am not a racist, .  Please show me a
 statement that show that I am racistnope I don't think so.  (Thinking about
 conversations I have had with my family...they  defintiely know that I am not.
 However, I will point out things, that things that are acceptable for society..and
 right for that society..at that time, can not be judged by today.

 I hope other 'old timers' on this list also notice a distinct similarity,


Right !! Let us get back to the topic..at hand.

 not only between this new crop and the old neonazi group, but also a
 strange similarity amongst the postings of the 'new' pro-slavery
 'crowd'...almost as if it were the same person talking...   ;-)

 Wha's goin' on here? I haven't got the time to waste.

Yeah right !! Huh !! Oh, ok now I am a neo-nazi ? Yeah right, far from it.  If you
want details on my beliefs let me know.

 Carlene


DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

  Kris is merely calling the kettle black and asking him to
 answer his legitimate questions.
 Thank you.


With name calling ??
Oh !!! Ok...but then ...I am confusedhe did not want any talk about the Bible,
and name calling on the listbut there is a discussion going on...oh never
mind.but thanks...for your information.

Carlene

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

"Carlene M. Wojahn" wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

   Kris is merely calling the kettle black and asking him to
  answer his legitimate questions.
  Thank you.
 

 With name calling ??
 Oh !!! Ok...but then ...I am confusedhe did not want any talk about the Bible,
 and name calling on the listbut there is a discussion going on...oh never
 mind.but thanks...for your information.

 Carlene


Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-


 Well now, calling someone a hypocrite is not name-calling, It is stating a
 fact.  You seem to inordiantely involved in this debate. Any particular
 reason?

No...except the name calling ends up in my mailbox..I do enjoy your other
post, which you write with foresight and thought, so I start reading these name
calling ones...which is aggravating, because it lessens my opinion of you in a
way.  I mean right after reading a great post of yours, which I enjoyed
immensely...you lower yourself to this.IMHO

 If you think that it is proper to use the Lord's name in vain with a
 curse whilst making my opinion again you are sadly mistaken.

That was an example...and I forgot to blank out another letter,,,and besides
that I did not type it all out nor did I use a capital G which would denote our
God.

 And as for your syntax advice,  . . . . Many times my remarks have been followed
 by MHO, which stands for my humble opinion.

NOT LATELY

  Hawk is a classic hypocrite.  There is much written proof that Hawk is
 a hypocrite and truly don't feel that he has anything in mind but disruption
 of this list. But ya have to understand, we been disrupted by eruditer
 hypocrites than hawk.

 Why are you defending HawK's hypocrisy with your innanities about name-calling
 and such?

I am not defending Hawk if you would notice...I should you how to use correct
syntax if you so wanted to continue doing this..this way no one gets into any
legal trouble.

We have gotten off on a tangent here...with this name calling and would like to
see your intelligent comments, which I so enjoy, with this topic and get back
discussing facts.

 Oh and thanks for calling me stupid. Do you have documentation?

 I was giving examples...in all of my post I was calling anyone anything.

Like I said after posting an example "After reading this thought I would let
you know that, that was only an example..Iamnot calling Hawk.
this name.Kris," AND VICE A VERSA.

 However now that I think of it..even though I did  not call you stupid ...I
 said "it seems that you  are acting quite stupid, to be doing this to your list.
 I knowyou payfor it, but you have to set standards..well you have but your
 not following them."  A list owner usually set the tone of the list, at least in
 my observations.

Like I said before, I do enjoy reading some of your other posts, but for some
reason you don't seem to use this logic when addressing Hawk. I don't know why.

 Carlene






  it
 
 seems that you  are acting quite stupid, to be doing this to your list. I
 know
 you pay
 
 for it, but you have to set standards..well you have but your not following
 them."
 
 
 
  Anyhow you catch the drift you got to use a word like seems, appears, looks
 like,
 or I
 
 think can help you call names in a more efficient manner...
 
 
 
  OkI will help Hawk out here..with his response to ignorant..when he
 uses
 the word
 
  stupid.  He should be saying something like this..it seems...I think..in my
 opinion
 you
 
  are stupid because you are calling me names and not proving a G##-Dam%
 thing.
  Well
 
  that is what he could say if he uses those words.
 
 
 
 -
 Aloha, He'Ping,
 Om, Shalom, Salaam.
 Em Hotep, Peace Be,
 Omnia Bona Bonis,
 All My Relations.
 Adieu, Adios, Aloha.
 Amen.
 Roads End
 Kris

 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
 screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
 frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
 spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
 gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
 be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
 nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
 
 Archives Available at:
 http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

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 Om

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of 

Re: [CTRL] Larry Flynt on C-SPAN tonight.

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

 worse then the other, but... Larry F. isn't making his point well... The
 pres isn't being impeached because he had sex with Monica anyways... I wonder if
 he's aware of this.

I am quite sure he is...he lied...pure and simple...remember when he smoke pot he
didn't inhale.come on.



It has nothing to do with sex...he lied under oath..he could of taken the
fifth...but he lied, and he took an oath and swore under another oath

Carlene

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

I don't believe this sh++ !  It is so juvenile, I don't know much about this
person, but no one should be badgered like this, is this acceptable on this list
?  If so I suppose I could do this toowhere are you coming from...take it
private.(the only reason my private post got sent to the list, is because I was an
oversight, received some bad news and my concentration was not there)

But this is a deliberate attempt to disrupt this list, which I have been accused
of.

Carlene

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 Howdy Hypocrite,

 Whatsa matter, ain't got time to reply to my queries?

 So, pray tell, what are the "proper hermaneutical procedures"? Are they
 consistent?

 Hypocrite Hawk sez:

 "But, the passage you quoted said nothing about it being "evil" or "wrong" for
 the
 Hebrews to be held in bondage."

 So let, us review, unless Hypocrite Hawk, can determine through "proper
 hermaneutical procedures" if the Bible says an action is 'evil' or 'wrong'.

 Do you have a list of "evil" or "wrong", oh, old, wise one?

 I am not offended by Biblical texts, but by hypocrites that abuse them.

 Oh, Hypocrite, you didn't answer my query about your intel secret ops? Cat got
 your tongue?

 What a . . . chauvanistic goober.

 Om
 k

 In a message dated 1/13/99 10:47:36 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 -Caveat Lector-
 
 Alamaine Ratliff wrote:
 
   -Caveat Lector-
 
  Okay, I'll bite.  Biblical documentation (courtesy NIV) at
 
  Matt 6 (esp 6:5) {long, I won't reproduce -- especially because of the
  written word}
 
 Don't see any connection to slavery.
 
  John 8:31ff:  "To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold
  to my teaching, you are really my disciples.  Then you will know the truth,
  and the truth will set you free."  They answered him, "We are Abraham's
  descendants and have never been slaves on anyone.  How can you say we shall
  be set free?"
 
 Apparently these fellows had never been slaves, and said so.. They also
 apparently
 "missed the point," that Jesus wasn't talking about literal/physical
 slavery..
 which you also seem to have missed.
 
  Acts 7:6ff:  "G*d spoke to him {Abraham} in this way: 'Your descendants
  will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and
  mistreated four hundred years.  But I will punish the nation they serve as
  slaves,' G*d said, 'and afterward they will come out of that country and
  worship me in this place.'  Then he gave Abraham the convenant of
  circumcision.  And Abraham became the father of Isaac and circumcised him
  eight days after his birth.  Later Isaac became the father of Jacob, and
  Jacob became the father of the twelve patriarchs."
 
  I stumbled onto the above after looking through my Strong's Exhaustive
  Concordance of the Bible.  There's not a bunch on "slave" or "slavery" but
  more on "bondage" which translates back to "slavery" in the NIV.  The
  Matthew part was what I originally intended to offer but the rest just came
  along.
 
 But, the passage you quoted said nothing about it being "evil" or "wrong" for
 the
 Hebrews to be held in bondage.  It merely said that they WOULD be, and that
 Egypt
 WOULD be punished, which it was... But the punishment was not because the
 Hebrews
 were slaves there, rather because Pharoah did not release them when God told
 him
 to... It was his (1) unreasonable harshness to the Hebrew slaves, and (2) his
 refusal to let them go when directed -- Read it in context and this becomes
 clear.  There was a time (read the part about Joseph) when God BLESSED Egypt
 because of Pharaoh's relationship (master over slave) with Joseph.
 
  I really lean more toward Celtic Buddhism so these forays into Xtian
  theological texts is rather illuminating.
 
 That's good... Since some of these folks are offended by biblical texts, I
 would
 be very glad to discuss the above passages, or any others, with you... Could
 be
 my
 "take" on them is 100% wrong... but maybe I am not wrong at all.  You be the
 judge, after having an opportunity to study the passages using proper
 hermaneutical procedures.  In looking through your concordance, don't look
 for
 "slave" but rather "servant" which IS a slave unless it says "hired" servant.
 
 Hawk
 -
 Aloha, He'Ping,
 Om, Shalom, Salaam.
 Em Hotep, Peace Be,
 Omnia Bona Bonis,
 All My Relations.
 Adieu, Adios, Aloha.
 Amen.
 Roads End
 Kris

 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
 screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
 frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
 spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
 gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
 be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial 

[CTRL] references

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

Here are some references you might want to check out.

Bibliography

Primary Sources:

Chastellux, Marquis de. Travels in North American the Years
1780, 1781 and 1782, 2 vols. Howard C. Rice, ed. Chapel
Hill: University of North Carolina Press, for the Institute
for Early American History and Culture, Williamsburg, Va.,
1963.

Hamilton, Alexander, James Madison, and John Jay. The
Federalist Papers. Clinton Rossiter, ed. New York: New
American Library, 1961.

"James Madison's Attitude toward the Negro: Advice given
Negroes a
Century Ago." The Journal of Negro History. VI (January,
1921): 74-102.

Jennings, Paul. A Colored Man's Reminiscences of James
Madison.
Brooklyn: George C. Beadle, 1865.

Levasseur, Auguste. Lafayette in America in 1824 and 1825:
or Journals
of Travels in the United States. vol. 1. Translated from the
French. New
York: White, Galaher  White; et als., 1829.

Madison, James. The Papers of James Madison. Hutchinson,
William T. et
als, eds. Chicago and Charlottesville: University of Chicago
Press and
University Press of Virginia, 1962-.

. The Writings of James Madison, comprising His
Public Papers,
and His Private Correspondence, Including Numerous Letters
and Documents
Now for the First Time Printed. Vols VII - IX. New York: G.
P. Putnam's
Sons, 1908-10.

. Letters and Other Writings of James Madison,
Fourth
President of the United States, 4 Vols. Published by the
Order of
Congress. Philadelphia: J. B. Lippincott  Co., 1865.

. Notes of Debates in the Federal Convention of
1787,
Reported by James Madison. Bicentennial ed., with
introduction by Adrienne
Koch, New York: W. W. Norton  Co., p. d.

Martineau, Harriet. Retrospect of Western Travel, 2 vol.
London: Saunders
and Otley, 1838; reprinted 1948.

Miller, Ann L., ed. Visitors to Mr. Madison: Accounts of
Early
Nineteenth Century Visitors to Montpelier. Unfinished
edition of the
Montpelier Monograph Series, .

Secondary Sources:

Alexander, Archibald. A History of Colonization on the
Western Coast of
Africa. Philadelphia: William S. Martin, 1869; reprint, New
York: Negro
University Press, 1969.

Berkeley, Edmund, Jr. "Prophet Without Honor: Christopher
McPherson,
Free Person of Color." Virginia Magazine of History and
Biography 77
(April 1969): 180-90.



Brant, Irving. James Madison, 6 vols. Indianapolis: The
Bobbs-Merrill Co.,
Inc., 1941-61.

Eaton, Clement. A History of the Old South: The Emergence of
a
Reluctant Nation, 3d ed. Prospect Heights, Ill.: Waveland
Press, 1975.

Grinnan, A. G. "The Burning of Eve." Virginia Magazine of
History and
Biography. 3 (January, 1896): 308-10.

Ketcham, Ralph. James Madison: A Biography. New York:
Macmillian
Publishing Co., 1971; reprint, Charlottesville: University
Press of Virginia,
1990.

Koch, Adrienne. Madison's "Advice to My Country". Princeton:
Princeton
University Press, 1966.

McCoy, Drew R. The Last of the Fathers: James Madison and
the
Republican Legacy. New York: Cambridge University Press,
1989.

Mellon, Matthew T. Early American Views on Negro Slavery:
From the
Letters and Papers of the Founders of the Republic. Boston:
Meador
Publishing Company, 1934.

Meyers, Marvin, ed. The Mind of the Founder: Sources of the
Political
Thought of James Madison. Hanover: University Press of New
England,
1981.

Peterson, Merrill D., ed. James Madison: A Biography in His
Own
Words. The Founding Fathers Series. New York: Newsweek,
1974.

Rutland, Robert Allen. The Presidency of James Madison.
Lawrence:
University Press of Kansas, 1990.

. James Madison: The Founding Father. New York:
Macmillian
Publishing Co., 1987.

Scott, W. W. A History of Orange County, Virginia: From its
Formation
in 1734 (O. S.) to the end of Reconstruction in 1870;
compiled mainly
from Original Records. Richmond, Va.: Everett Waddey, Co.,
1907; reprint,
Berryville, Va.: Chesapeake Book Co., 1962.

Slaughter, Philip. The Virginian History of African
Colonization. Freeport,
N. Y.: Books for Libraries Press, 1970.

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL 

Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] Vive La France!]

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

  We were having fun.  Accent on the WERE.
 
  Now as far as Carlene getting pissed because she can not use the Bible as  her
 citation source everytime.

I don't quote the Bible, used to know it fairly well, but I don't quote it,
you must be thinking about something else.

and for references I did take it to heart, but I noticed others weren't. I was
not pI@@ed ...thought it interesting that others weren't quoting sources.

Sorry I offended you...just having fun.  It is nice to see people on the list
with a sense of humor instead of being serious all of the time.


  a English exam.

Did quite well I am a he## of a researcher and writer.

 Also as far as Hawk accusing everyone of telling him he
  is a Liar, because evidently his version of history is the gold plated one.

I think he is the one who quotes the Bible...which is good, wish I could.


 
  I personally am getting tired of you children - grow up.

Huh  ???  Growing up means growing old...and I don't want to get there.  You
see you can be young physically, but depending on your attitude you can be your
age, or a lot, lot older.  I know younger people going on 90just because of
their attitude...sorry rather have some humor in my life.

Carlene


  Laura
  AKA The Pied Piper
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Carlene M. Wojahn [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 4:10 PM
  Subject: Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] Vive La France!]
 
 
   -Caveat Lector-
  
  Thank you Jeremy for that refreshing conversation we had..maybe it made a
  few
  others smile as well.   Take care and don't let anyone get you out of
  that
  good
  mood you are in..isn't worth it,
  
  You see if you did you would be playing right into a conspiracy of that
  person or
  parties...to make you grumpy just like them...
  
  
  Carlene
  
  "Brown, Jeremy" wrote:
  
-Caveat Lector-
  
   Jerry,
  
  Must you be so high and mighty? You sound like Margaret Dumont! Who
  do
   you think you are spouting off about who's immature and who isn't? Like
   you're so highbrow? I can't believe that you'd actually let a few goofy
   e-mails get you into such a lather that you'd resort to taking personal
   shots at people! GET OVER YOURSELF YOU OVER-INFLATED WINDBAG It's
  people
   like you who suck all the fun right out of life. I bet you were one of
  those
   people in high school who would tell a teacher if you caught some kids
   smoking behind the bleachers. You're so mature and intelligent, let me
  give
   you a little SAT lingo -
  
   You are to fun as water is to fire.
  
   L I G H T E N  U P, you'll live longer.
  
--
From: Gerald Harp[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Reply To: Conspiracy Theory Research List
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 3:58 PM
To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:  Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] Vive La France!]
   
 -Caveat Lector-
   
In a message dated 1/11/99 8:51:28 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
   

  Having lived and studied among the natives thereof, I gained a
different
  sense of perspective.
   
Thank you, Alamaine, for lifting this thread from the immature and
  silly
to
the mature and refined.
   
Jerry
   
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance-not soapboxing!  These are sordid
matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor
effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said,
  CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial
  and
nazi's need not apply.
   
Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
   
  
Archives Available at:
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Om
   
  
   DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
   ==
   CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
  propagandic
   screeds are not allowed. Substance-not soapboxing!  These are sordid
  matters
   and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
  outright
   frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor
  effects
   spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being sa

Re: [CTRL] Mark Twain and Anti-Imperialism 1898-1935

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

Cool !! Love your site...didn't noticed but did you have anything on dyslexia...impressive.
Carlene
"L. Shipton" wrote:
http://home.ican.net/~fjzwick/twain/















Edited by Jim
Zwick
Copyright  1995-1999 Jim Zwick














Mark Twain on the Philippines

http://members.xoom.com/ThePiedPiper/Intro2.htm
1. Take the 60-day No Aspartame
Test and send us your case history.
Mission Possible International
5950-H State Bridge Rd. #215
Duluth, GA 30097 USA
2. Tell your doctor and all of
your friends!
3. Return Asparcidal food to the
store.
(anything with Monsanto's NutraSweet/Equal/Spoonful/Benevia/NatraTaste)
VISIT http://www.dorway.com
Get links to over 30 sites on aspartame
VISIT http://www.holisticmed.com/aspartame/
..FAQs  Cases
VISIT http://www.notmilk.com
Exposing Bovine Growth Hormone

Disability and Death are not acceptable costs of business!

Re: [CTRL] Mark Twain and Anti-Imperialism 1898-1935

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

Yes, I am thanks, my daughter is...and I have run into quite
a few students that have this problem,...however it is not
noticed/diagnosed properly and they end up in ED rooms.

Again...thanks.

"L. Shipton" wrote:

  *referring to signature line"Under "Education Helps"
 Strange Search - http://stange.simplenet.com/search/then
 use http://www.askjeeves.com/ under newest hopefulsand
 just in case you are referring to me - I suggest you ask
 "how to allow someone to keep their ego." or "Constructive
 Criticism" If you are actually interested in the subject
 (dyslexia) these will allow you to research and I also
 have to Med. links on My site that I will dig out for you
 if asked.  The site is cut and paste so that it is capable
 of being printed with the links showing, am in the process
 of doing it as a database as well.LauraAKA The Pied
 Piper  -Original Message-
 From: Carlene M. Wojahn [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 9:02 AM
 Subject: Re: [CTRL] Mark Twain and Anti-Imperialism
 1898-1935
  Cool !! Love your site...didn't noticed but did you have
 anything on dyslexia...impressive.

 Carlene

 "L. Shipton" wrote:

   http://home.ican.net/~fjzwick/twain/


  Edited by
[Anti-Imperialism in the United States, 1898-1935]Jim Zwick
  Copyright
  ©
  1995-1999
  Jim Zwick
  

   Mark Twain on the Philippines

  http://members.xoom.com/ThePiedPiper/Intro2.htm
   1. Take the 60-day No Aspartame Test and send us your
   case history.
  Mission Possible International
  5950-H State Bridge Rd. #215Duluth, GA 30097
USA
   2. Tell your doctor and all of your friends!
  3. Return Asparcidal food to the store.
 (anything with Monsanto's
   NutraSweet/Equal/Spoonful/Benevia/NatraTaste)
   VISIT http://www.dorway.com Get links to over 30 sites
   on aspartame
VISIT http://www.holisticmed.com/aspartame/ ..FAQs 
   Cases
VISIT http://www.notmilk.com Exposing Bovine Growth
  Hormone
 Disability and Death are not acceptable costs
of business!


DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

For readings on Blacks that owned slaves see these resources.

We have a book by Gary Mills, who a professor at Univ. of
Alabama, "The Forgotten People," which is about Creoles of Color in
Louisiana who owned slaves.  It sells for $14.95, postpaid.

"Black Slave owners" about Free Black Slave
Masters in South Carolina, 1790-1860.  It sells for $19.95, postpaid.

So check out those books, those are approximate costs for the books.

Another one to check out is
Virginia's Attitude Toward Slavery and Secession by Beverly B. Munford, 1915.

  Noby the way you said the blacks could go northI did some checking because 
I
knew better.  I have written a book about this area and blacks were not allowed in  
many
villages/cities around here.


 Also I checked around with a reenacting friend of mine from Ohio
 This is the e-mail sent and the reply received.

"

 Now I need to find laws that prevented the blacks from going
 north...some states would not allow them in...please help me
 with this.
   
   Carlene

 The most blatant was Illinois'.  In 1861 they passed a law making it illegal  for a 
black
 person to be in the state.  In 1862 they made it a part of their  state constitution.

 Massachusetts:  No law against slavery was ever passed by her legislature,   and in 
that
 sense, the right to hold slaves may be said to have existed, until   it was 
extinguished
 by adoption of the "constitutional amendment" in 1866.

   In 1840 (U.S. census) there were 40 slaves in Pennsylvania.

   New Jersey had 236 slaves for life in the 1850 census.

   In March 1788, Massachusetts passed a law ordering every black, mulatto,   or 
Indian who
 came into the state and remained two months to be publickly  whipped, and this
 punishmentwas to be repeated "if he or she shall not  depart "toties quoties."  This 
law
 remained in force until 1834. (Moore,  History of Slavery in Mass., p. 229)

 There was also discussion on the KKK, well it is alive and well up north here.

 Keep your eye on Wisconsin on Martin Luther King's DayI think we are in for 
trouble.
 An article appeared in the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel today.

 "The KKK will call of its Saturday rally at the state capitol if Gov Thompson admits 
he
 was wrong to originally deny the group a permit for the demonstration a leader said
 Monday.

 But a spokesman for the governor said Thompson wouldn't go along with that request.
 Wanting to prevent the vilence that could occur between the Klan and the counter
 demonstators Mike McQueeney, the Grand Dragon for Wisconsin, called on Thompson to
 publicly recognize the group has free speech and assembly rights too.

 If the governor does, he said the group would cancel its rally.  Otherwise it will go
 forward as scheduled. "If one person gets hurt on the Capitol steps--I don't care if 
it's
 a negro, a jew, or a
 homosexual or a neo-Nazi--it will be on Tommy Thompson hands"
 McQueenely said Monday from his home in Mercer, Wis. "We'll cancel the rally it he 
admits
 by noon Wed. that he was wrong,  Otherwise we will be sure to be there on Saturday.

 Madison is not ready for the Klan, and we don't want anyone in the state of Wis. to 
get
 hurt.  We're not into violence, we're nonviolent.  I can see something like this is 
going
 to lead to a confrontation and someone has to put a stop to it.  I can stop it."

 A federal judge last week overturned the states decision to deny the group a permit 
for
 the event.  U.S. District Judge Barbara Crabb ruled Thompson could not deny the 
Klan's
 right to assemble and speck just because previous rallies held elsewhere became 
violent.
 The state had argued in court that the Klan used earlier rallies in Janesville and 
Beloit
 to incite violence.  In December of 1997 rally in Beloit, nine people were arrested 
for
 fighting and 400 anti-Klan protestors showed up to challenge 18 Klan members. The 
Klan has
 schedule the rally for two days before Martin lutherKing Day to protest the holiday 
that
 honors him. State officials initially denied there quest because of safety concerns.

 After Crabbs ruling Thompson said he would not appeal the decision and would instruct
 Capitol police to make security preparations for the rally.  Nearly 500 law 
enforcement
 officers will be available for the rally which could draw 100 Klan members and 2000
 counter demonstartors..and it goes on a bit more...but you get the jist.

 BTW the first KKK was disbanded, and the first one served a purpose, a purpose which 
is
 less in severity than it is today...but the Klan is in other states...northern 
ones...and
 many northern states forbade the blacks to settle in their state

 Carlene

 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
 screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
 frauds is used 

Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] Vive La France!]

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

"Brown, Jeremy" wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 The French are all vulgar troglodytes who rarely bathe and stink of rancid
 coffee and fetid wine. Those stupid berets look like deflated chef's hats.And
 that freakin' Eiffel tower looks like an Erector set that was never finished. It
 probably isn't finished. They were too busy laying down in the
 gutters like DOGS as the Panzer tanks rolled over their stupid
 accordion-playing asses.

We need documentation here did they really have accordion playing a@@es if so
please give the url ?  Also need the url about the beret that was a chefs hat as
wellplease document.

lol

Carlene



 "Oh-ho-ho, Messeiur Heetler, ze citee of Paris is yours for ze taking!"

 Mime sucks ass.

Need to document this too.

Carlene

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

 The slave narratives are not about feelings.  They are matter of fact in tone
 and the descriptions of conditions are well buttressed by related events.  It
 is all but mind numbingly horrific to realize how these folks lived.  It's
 true that they were in their teens but in those conditions, work began in
 earnest at age 7 or 8.

My grandpa died when my dad was 5...he started selling papers then..there were
thirteen in the house...children and they all contrubuted...a brother of  mine
started at 9and guess what they weren't slaves nor were they black.

 The slaves were adults in their teen years.  Actually,
 even when i lived through the adolescent years during the 1940s,

  You were expected to be a fully functioning
 and responsible adult by age 18 during the 1930s, 1940s, and 1950s.

No earlier right after they graduated from eighth grade..

Carlene

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

 believe to be juvenile posts knocking one anothermaybe both of you need a
 time out.

 YI've been on this list for YEARSif you don't like it, LEAVE...


 CW-I have been listening to others and there is a lot of knowledge on this
listwhen I got on this morning I saw this post calling someone else names...and
for a while I thought that person should get cooled off too...but then as i read he
was trying to be reasonable...take it private if you want to call others names
instead of having this bunk end up in my mailbox.

CWAs I said I am learning a lot of the others, and have been exposed to different
way of looking at somethings...  However I do get upset at name calling and
innuendos has been going on for quite a while on this list.  Maybe it was the first
post I received when I got on that hit me wrong...but having slanderous remarks and
you don't even have documentation for the remarks. G

CWLike I have said I have been listening to others and there is a lot of knowledge
on this list, and I appreciate them for their input...through their eyes I see
things a little bit differently.

 ---Ma'am I consider you to be disrespectful to all of us on this list

 YWho the FUCK are YOU?

 YYou just join this list, and presume to DICTATE to those of us who have been on
 it for YEARS?

CWI will voice my opinion if I see something that does not seem to be right ..like
you do.  Because you have been here longer does that mean I should not get any
respect from you, and my posts are worth less than yours.


 after reading your post thoroughly.  I do not want a post like this taking up
 room in my mailbox.

 YSo hit the fucking delete key...


I have read your posts before, and you at times, can have a pretty good onejust
do your name calling privately, instead of using the list for it.
This way I can enjoy the other posts which you submit, but for that post to be the
first one I read in the morning...well...I guess I expected more from you
especially since you have been on the list for some time.  Don't get me wrong, I do
enjoy your posts when you aren't bashing anyone around.


 so if you please write down your facts instead of posting personal opinion, I
 would be more than appreciative.

 YBite me.

 In this post you did not think you letyour emotions take over...if you
 findyourself doing this againwrite it --read  it...edit it...or don't send
 it.

 YBite me.

 CWMa'am I do not think it would be wise, might be a bitter taste if I did.-

Carlene

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] Vive La France!]

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

lol

 Carlene,

I appreciate your interest in my take on the French "culture". I must
 confess, I have no hard evidence to support the statement that the buttocks
 of the average Frenchman are indeed physically capable of playing any
 bellows-driven instrument.

Okay...when you find some documentation on this let me know.

 However, I can attest that wherever you walk on the cruddy streets of Paris, you
 CONSTANTLY hear that goddamn accordion music playing.

Wait a second why is it god@@@ accordian music up here in Wisconsin we have that
for our polkas, is that godd@@ as well ?   Now you will have to substantiate what
is and what isn't god@@@ and please include the criteria of what makes something
god@@@ or notOkay ?

Regarding the chef's hat theorem... If you take your average chef's hat, and then
wereto compress it maniacally down on your head,===: THE BERET!

Now that you mention it...it could be a beret...okay will let that one pass,
we have to be careful with this documentation here.

 Lastly, the phrase "mime sucks ass" is not merely an observation or a statement
 of vitriol. It is a bona fide fact. Let us examine the harsh truths of mime, and
 together we will learn why it does indeed suck ass.

 1) Mimes wear tight pants, horizontal striped shirts, and suspenders. -
  Conclusion: If an art form requires you to dress like a jerk, it sucks ass.

 2) Mimes paint their faces stark white with that stupid teardrop on their
 cheek. -  Conclusion: Face painting sucks ass. Mime employs face painting.
 Therefore, mime sucks ass.

 3) Mimes do stupid and annoying hand and body motions and try to pass it off as
 art.  - Now, if they really wereclimbing a mountain in a windstorm, that would
 be entertaining. There isalso the chance that they would be blown off the
 mountain. One less mime. Conclusion - Waving your hands around like a fan dancer
 with the DTs and calling it art sucks ass.

 4) Mime bother people on the street and occasionally employ annoying props
 (whistles, balloons, etc.). - Conclusion: Annoying innocent bystanders with loud
 sounds and second-rate entertainment sucks ass.

 There you have it, my friend. In a nutshell, the reasons why mime sucks ass.


Loved it !!!

 ROFLAO

Okay, pretty good documentation but is it a documentation of opinion or fact.

G

I look forward to reading your other posts, but please remember to documentate.
G
Carlene

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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[CTRL] whoops

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

I just opened my mail..and what was meant to go privately to a person went to the 
list.  Please excuse it,
won't happen again..(I hope)

Carlene

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

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Om

Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] Vive La France!]

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

  However, I can attest that wherever you walk on the cruddy streets of
  Paris, you
   CONSTANTLY hear that goddamn accordion music playing.
 
  Wait a second why is it god@@@ accordian music up here in Wisconsin w
  Loved it !!!
 
   ROFLAO
 
  Okay, pretty good documentation but is it a documentation of opinion
  or fact.
 
  G
 
  I look forward to reading your other posts, but please remember to
  documentate.
  G
  Carlene
 
 
 You  have done what only others dream to do,  you have left me speechless..

lol

I look forward to your other postsbut remember to cite sources

Carlene

"

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

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Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

 For Carlene
 Up till now you have contributed nothing to this list besides "Personal
 Opinion".

Excuse me !!! Personal opinion...is it personal opinion that there have been KKK
activities up north

Okayhere is some documentation

Chicago Historical Information



1919: Race Riots

On the afternoon of July 27, 1919, Eugene Williams, a black youth, drowned
of exhaustion off the 29th Street beach. A stone throwing melee between
blacks and whites on the beach prevented the boy from coming ashore
safely. After clinging to a railroad tie for a lengthy period, he drowned when he
no longer had the strength to hold on. This was the finding of the Cook County
Coroner's Office after an inquest was held into the cause of death. But false
reports that he had been stoned to death led to five days of rioting in Chicago
that claimed the lives of a total of 23 blacks and 15 whites, with 291 wounded
and maimed.

The Coroner's Office spent 70 day sessions and 20 night sessions on
inquest work and in examining 450 witnesses. Those findings, reported in the
Coroner's Report of 1919 are followed by his recommendations to deal with
the festering social and economic conditions that were the precipitating
factors leading to the riots.


Sources:

  Hoffman, Peter M.  The Race Riots. Published as the: Cook County
(Ill.). Coroner's Office. Biennial Report 1918-1919 and Official
Record of Inquests on the Victims of the Race Riots of July and
August, 1919.


Deaths, Disturbances, Disasters and Disorders in Chicago
Compiled by Reference Librarians Ellen O'Brien and Lyle Benedict
Municipal Reference Collection, Chicago Public Library

Last Updated: 3/97



Now what other opinions did I give out...let me look.

Constitutionally, they should of been allowed to secede,

That is a fact...it was constitutionally correct that they had the right to
secede,,,look at the documents issued during the Buchanann administration...do you
want urls...I will get them for you.

but I think what might  have happened here, is Lincoln may have thought it was a
minor rebellion led by a few.  Not until he got forces out, did he realize how
dedicated each southron was and is dedicated to the cause.

This is opinion..

The North and the South had and still has a different culture,
economic structure, and I believe due to these reasons ...misunderstanding
occurred.

Fact...there cultures, economic structures were and are different...the movement
of the northerners down there may be changing their culture.

It is interesting to note, the people selling the slaves were black men
themselves,

Fact

and the one slave owner who had the most slaves was a Haitian that lived in
Louisiana.

Fact

One must also remember there were white slaves.

Fact

well slaves were expensiveand expensive to
maintain(slavery would have faded out on its own)

Fact

It was the over-seers that were the culprits, people who
learned how to abuse their power.  But if the were caught...many times it was
there behind.

Fact

Slavery as we see it, in the situation that we are in is evil,
we were raised that way, but let me throw out this one question on this, how can
we today dare judge a society of yesterday...without understanding the culture,
and the mores of that society.

Opinion


Many black folk were like family and treated as of such.

Fact..

Only 5% were slave owners, the war was over preservation of
cultures on both sides.

Fact

Economics is what one looks at, it was becoming uneconomical
to have slaves, and was going out.

Opinion

Those that owned the slaves would have made this transition from
slavery to freeman a lot more smoother, many slaves were
thrown out in the streets, did not have a place to go, the mighty liberals of
their day did not have a plan...the owners would have.

Opinion
 You have NO comprehension of what you are
 talking about when you start prattling about how "corrupted"
the south

Fact

Lee and others freed their slaves? Yes, there were economic reasons
to believe slavery  would end. But there were other forces that would have ended
it as well.

Now I did this with one post, could go back and do it with others...I am searching
and have been for some time...I have the urls that can back up everything I stated
as a fact and will if so requested...


 Talking about the underlying themes of the Bible is acceptable but quoting a
 sheep type mentality will make many of us bored "At Great Speed"


Did I do this ???  I don't think so.


 "This list is "Food For Thought" research so again Substance—not soapboxing!  .

Soapboxing ???



 I am not attacking you personally or attacking at all!  You have read the
 theme (or thread) of this list and you are allowed to say what ever you want
 (Free Speech) as long as you can come up with different citations.

HUH ?

  Do not treat me as if I can not read or research or as if you are afraid that I

 might find out something different.

I don't and 

Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  writes:
 
   My  understanding of law has lead me to believe that the
southern states had  the legal right to leave the union and that they did
solawfully. As I stated, the  Supreme Court of the time was probably in agreement
with this position. It was
 Lincoln and others in the northern states who  ignored their
oathes to the Constitution.

Again these are facts/questions,  not opinions.

That is my understanding as well, I have been doing a lot
of research concerning this and I have some questions

Why did states like Maine, New York, even Wisconsin, think
they had the right to
secede ?

Virginia was one state ..yet part of that state broke away and
became another, how can
this happen if secession is not constitutional ?

Why did the Southron states have to reapply for admission into
statehood ?

When the 14th amendment was being voted on ...how come they
found out for a brief
period they were non-states and could not vote on it ?

Just a few questions


  What motivated  them.  They did not perform an act merely
because it was legal,
 i.e. they did  not act arbitrarily.

--No it wasn't illegal, there was talk about the northern
states doing..seceding
as well.

  They joined in the Confederacy because it stood for their
way of seeing, their way
 of living.  That way was based upon slavery.  The Southern
leadership could not stay
 in the Union without accepting a gradual change over in the
dirty little condition
 that made their way possible.

No it was more based on states rights, slavery would of
disappeared on its on with
the westward movement..so the last sentence above is
incorrect.

 The North was not going to accept additional slave states
and the opposition to
 slavery was growing.

-But who had sold the slaves to the South ?

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Slavery (was: Stampeding Bison)

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

 I have a black friend who grew up down south, having to watch the local KKK'rs
 walk by her house -- in full regalia -- going to and from their meetings...and
 being made to smile and wave to them...I can tell you,

KKK is alive and well in the north, couple years ago there was a
demonstration, in Racine..heck that was broadcasted nationally don't you remember
? I have newspaper accounts telling about their meetings and such in Wisconsin,
and Illinois. You want me to get them out ?

 SHE and her family were NOT content, but knew what they had to do to keep from
 being lynched and their house burned down...

Again, blacks were and are discriminated up north, we can not discount that as
being national...you got to remember when the slaves were freed there were no
allowances made for them.  The north was becoming industralized, there were no
unions and the black labor force, this new labor force was a threat to those up
here.  Besides that many of our soldiers had died, for the preservation of the
Union, and the freeing of the slaves...there was bitterness that their loved ones
were gone, that communities disappeared due to this war.



 There's a reason they moved up North...because the South didn't provide them the
 opportunities in employment the North did, because of their race...

There were many laws enacted prohibiting them to move into certain
stateslook at the demographics how many blacks live in the south compared to
the north.  Everyone of them supposedly had the opportunity to move up north, by
what you said, percentage wise how many did ?



 We worked together Black and White to plant and clear the crops since most of
 the able bodied men were still at war.

-You still see this black and whites working together peacefully,
respectfully...in the south.  There is a percentage that is always more noticeable
and vocal than the majority, and that is what one has to go by.




 I'm sure blacks were given equal opportunity to plant  clear fields --
 for someone else.  How many blacks OWNED this property they worked on...?

The major slave holder in the South was a freed black man from La, do you want
name and details...can get them.



 How many blacks were allowed to take over important office and factory jobs,
 supervisory and managerial positions, when the 'able bodiedmen' (black men
 WEREN'T 'able bodied'?) were away at war?

Blacks had joined the Confederate Army and fought right along side the rest,
they got paid the same...up north the white soldier got $13 a month, and the black
got $10 a month

 It is not regional

 

Well he must have been a pistol, because isn't he the guy who
was making love
to a lady in one of the White House cloakrooms while his
guards held off his
wife who was trying to get in to attack them?  Prudy

You mean that was not Hillary ?? HmmG Sorry I couldn't resist.
-



  ===
   The melancholy days are come, the saddest of the year,
   Of wailing winds and naked woods, and meadows brown and sear.
 -- Wm. Cullen Bryant:  The Death of the Flowers
  ===
 *---*
 revcoal AT connix DOT com
 *---*
  It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email
  address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227.  I assess a fee of
  $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial
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  unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial
  email.
 **

 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
 screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
 frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
 spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
 gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
 be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
 nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
 
 Archives Available at:
 http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 
 To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
 SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL 

Re: [CTRL] Read this post. It is about senseless and cruel men

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

"Howard R. Davis III" wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 Gerald Harp wrote:
 
   -Caveat Lector-
 
  In a message dated 1/5/99 6:05:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  writes:

  the nation  and the south and even the black population of the south would
 probably  have been better off if Lincoln had not forced the south through
 military means back into the union.

Constitutionally, they should of been allowed to secede, but I think what might
have happened here, is Lincoln may have thought it was a minor rebellion led by a
few.  Not until he got forces out, did he realize how dedicated each southron was
and is dedicated to the cause.

The North and the South had and still has a different culture, economic structure,
and I believe due to these reasons ...misunderstanding occurred.  It is interesting
to note, the people selling the slaves were black men themselves, and the one slave
owner who had the most slaves was a Haitian that lived in Louisiana.   One must
also remember there were white slaves.

But getting back to slavery issue, and beatings,...when you buy a mercedes...or
something expensive like that do you intentionally go out to harm it..crash it,
scratch it.  Heck, no you paid good money for it, and you will try to do your best
so nothing happens to it...well slaves were expensiveand expensive to
maintain(slavery would have faded out on its own)

It was the over-seers that were the culprits, people who learned how to abuse their
power.  But if the were caught...many times it was there behind.

Slavery as we see it, in the situation that we are in is evil, we were raised that
way, but let me throw out this one question on this, how can we today dare judge a
society of yesterday...without understanding the culture, and the mores of that
society.


 
 You don't seem to understand much about human nature.  Slavery was not just an
 economic issue. It was a way of life and cheap self esteem.

Many black folk were like family and treated as of such.


 It was the dark pleasure of  having absolute power over others.  Slavery had
 deeply corrupted the South.

Only 5% were slave owners, the war was over preservation of cultures on both sides.




  To think that the results of slavery were typically benign or even neutral is
 fantasy.

Huh ?

 It is also naive to think that the slave masters would ever have voluntarily
 given up their corrupt power.

Economics is what one looks at, it was becoming uneconomical to have slaves, and
was going out.  Those that owned the slaves would have made this transition from
slavery to freeman a lot more smoother, many slaves were thrown out in the streets,
did not have a place to go, the mighty liberals of their day did not have a
plan...the owners would have.


 Don't just focus  on  the shallow economics oriented histories, consider and read
 about  the social/psychological realities.

Bunk


 
  Jerry
 

 You have NO comprehension of what you are
 talking about when you start prattling about how "corrupted" the south
  so, why had Lee and others
 freed freed their slaves? Yes, there were economic reasons to believe slavery
 would end. But there were other forces that would have ended it as well.

Carlene M. Wojahn

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

William Hugh Tunstall wrote:

 Geeshh you had me worried there, that you weren't who you are, and Hawk isn't who he 
is,
 and I was even beginning to wonder if I was who I am.I was beginning to sense a
 conspiracy of our identities being taken away...oh, well...I am glad you cleared 
that all
 up for me.

 -

 What constitutes "baiting"?  While I've subscribed to the list, I've read
 posts attacking Jews, minorities, and "liberals."  Plus, all of the vile
 and scurrilous posts about the President and Hillary.  In addition, I've
 read posts that have targeted the poor, welfare recipients, and Native
 Americans.  Not to mention the many posts attacking feminists or women in
 general.  Plus, there are the many strange posts defending slavery.

 I have responded to these many attacks in as courteous a manner as
 possible.  Barb Witt, who does not share my views on many issues, has
 pointed out that I have tried to be fair and polite to those who I
 disagree with.  I don't think I've "baited" anyone.  If anything, I have
 been "baited" by the neofascists on the list from the outset with
 snide remarks and ad hominem attacks.

 I locked horns with Hawk...only to now be accused of being Hawk in
 disguise!!!  Ha ha...go figure!  Yes, there is a similarity between the
 two of us...  And I do respect the maneven though I disagree with
 everything he believes.  I've spent my entire life surrounded by people
 who think like he doesand I think I was making progress towards
 showing him that liberals and people of color also love their
 country...also love their kids...also believe in decency, integrity,
 respect for property...the same things he values

 I'm not a white middle class American.  I didn't go to an elitist
 school... My father was an alcoholic, parents divorced when I was
 twelve...  I know what it's like to live on the streets and be
 hungry...how many of you can say the same?  Have you ever worked at a
 factory? washed dishes to eat?  worked in construction?
 ...struggled to survive? Old Hawk and I come from the same low
 strata.  We are the people who follow behind your parade with the
 shovels.  I understand his sense of betrayal and rage.  He's my brother..
 although I disagree with his views.

 So...if you dislike my posts...just hit the delete button.

 On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Jim Norman wrote:

   -Caveat Lector-
 
  May I second the motion.  In my opinion, "baiting" took place on both sides and if 
one
  goes, they should all go.
  Jim norman
 
  William Hugh Tunstall wrote:
 
-Caveat Lector-
  
   Hawk has informed me that he was removed from the list.
   I would like the listowner to reconsider his or her decision.
   All of us have been guilty of intemperate remarks from time to time on
   this list. (myself included.) I'm on the opposite end of the political
   spectrum from the dread bird, and I didn't find his posts that offensive.
   I've read some blatantly anti-semitic stuff that was far more offensive,
   in my opinion, that his posts..
  
   Best wishes,
   William
  
   On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, William Hugh Tunstall wrote:
  
 -Caveat Lector-
   
I think you missed my earlier post.  I'm not against the idea of states
leaving the Union...per se.
   
In the case of the Civil War, as in most wars, the issues were confused
and complex.  But I think on the issue of slavery there was no compromise.
   
Mr. Davis, what appears to be "logical" or "illogical" depends upon your
point of view, the criteria one uses to frame a particular discussion.
For example, if you were a white male southerner at the time who owned
slaves, you would be interested in protecting your "property," and you
would not be too enthusiastic about the Federal government's plan to
free your slaves.  However, for the sake of argument, I was the slave
owner ...and you were MY slave.  You might have a completely different
perspective on the issue of what exactly IS property and what ISN'T.
   
If I decided to take your children from you and sell them to my neighbor,
you wouldn't be able to complain, because the law had defined you to be
chattel.  Or, perhaps,if I decided to enjoy the sexual favors of your
wife.
Again, you would have nothing to say in the matter because I would be the
absolute lord and master over the Davis family.  Your wife, your children,
your lives would be held in my tender hands.  Now, being a thinking and
reasonable person, I just might make a reasonable assumption that YOU
would object to this state of affairs.  In fact, it might not be a legal
or logical issue to you...it might be an emotional and intensely personal
issue to you, would you agree? Of course, I could trot out my Holy Book
and explain to your sorry ass that you are chattel...and I could explain
the Constitution to your untutored ears.and explain the finer points
of the noble English Common 

Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

what is this..I don't understand this list, first message I opened, one was
accusing one to be another.,,now you are saying it happens all of the time.  Is
this what this list is about, if so I might as well leave.
I want to learn about things not argue if he is really he..if she is he ..if me is
me...or whatever. I hope this list is more than that.

Carlene

"L. Shipton" wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 We have had this before.  Multiple personal conversations (expessally from
 the same person, on the same thread) without documentation, citations, or
 URL's!  My answer.  Substance--Not soapboxing!

 CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
 propagandic
 screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
 outright
 frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
 spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
 gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
 readers;
 be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
 nazi's need not apply.

 Laura
 aka The Pied Piper
 PS I hope this is clear enough for you to understand, this time.

 -Original Message-
 From: William Hugh Tunstall [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 8:08 AM
 Subject: Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison

  -Caveat Lector-
 
 What constitutes "baiting"?  While I've subscribed to the list, I've read
 posts attacking Jews, minorities, and "liberals."  Plus, all of the vile
 and scurrilous posts about the President and Hillary.  In addition, I've
 read posts that have targeted the poor, welfare recipients, and Native
 Americans.  Not to mention the many posts attacking feminists or women in
 general.  Plus, there are the many strange posts defending slavery.
 
 I have responded to these many attacks in as courteous a manner as
 possible.  Barb Witt, who does not share my views on many issues, has
 pointed out that I have tried to be fair and polite to those who I
 disagree with.  I don't think I've "baited" anyone.  If anything, I have
 been "baited" by the neofascists on the list from the outset with
 snide remarks and ad hominem attacks.
 
 I locked horns with Hawk...only to now be accused of being Hawk in
 disguise!!!  Ha ha...go figure!  Yes, there is a similarity between the
 two of us...  And I do respect the maneven though I disagree with
 everything he believes.  I've spent my entire life surrounded by people
 who think like he doesand I think I was making progress towards
 showing him that liberals and people of color also love their
 country...also love their kids...also believe in decency, integrity,
 respect for property...the same things he values
 
 I'm not a white middle class American.  I didn't go to an elitist
 school... My father was an alcoholic, parents divorced when I was
 twelve...  I know what it's like to live on the streets and be
 hungry...how many of you can say the same?  Have you ever worked at a
 factory? washed dishes to eat?  worked in construction?
 ...struggled to survive? Old Hawk and I come from the same low
 strata.  We are the people who follow behind your parade with the
 shovels.  I understand his sense of betrayal and rage.  He's my brother..
 although I disagree with his views.
 
 So...if you dislike my posts...just hit the delete button.
 
 On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Jim Norman wrote:
 
   -Caveat Lector-
 
  May I second the motion.  In my opinion, "baiting" took place on both
 sides and if one
  goes, they should all go.
  Jim norman
 
  William Hugh Tunstall wrote:
 
-Caveat Lector-
  
   Hawk has informed me that he was removed from the list.
   I would like the listowner to reconsider his or her decision.
   All of us have been guilty of intemperate remarks from time to time on
   this list. (myself included.) I'm on the opposite end of the political
   spectrum from the dread bird, and I didn't find his posts that
 offensive.
   I've read some blatantly anti-semitic stuff that was far more
 offensive,
   in my opinion, that his posts..
  
   Best wishes,
   William
  
   On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, William Hugh Tunstall wrote:
  
 -Caveat Lector-
   
I think you missed my earlier post.  I'm not against the idea of
 states
leaving the Union...per se.
   
In the case of the Civil War, as in most wars, the issues were
 confused
and complex.  But I think on the issue of slavery there was no
 compromise.
   
Mr. Davis, what appears to be "logical" or "illogical" depends upon
 your
point of view, the criteria one uses to frame a particular
 discussion.
For example, if you were a white male southerner at the time who
 owned
slaves, you would be interested in protecting your "property," and
 you
would not be too enthusiastic about the Federal government's plan to

Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

Thank you for your warm welcome..the first post I opened up was the post accusing you 
to
be someone else.  The mentality of that first message got me wondering about this list.
But I will stick around and see what I can learn, if anything I can learn from
youand others who actually think before they write..

and for those of you wondering if I am someone else from this list check out my isp and
you find out that I am not..I really am me.

Carlene

Carlene

William Hugh Tunstall wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 Carlene,
 Welcome to the list!  This is the second time I've subscribed...and you

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Re: [CTRL] Hawk and Stampeding Bison

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

Wait a second here !! I just got on, and I am hearing that people are thrown off
this list for discussing things, and one person is accused of being another !! I
am wondering if I made a mistake here, or if I say something you don't like are
you going to throw me off...

and no, I am not William, nor Hawk...I am who I say I am.  just in case I get
accused of that, because I replied.

Carlene M. Wojahn

"L. Shipton" wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 Considering that you were the one who (helped) lead him on - since he gave
 you a sounding board for your own ideas, this is generous of you William
 Hugh Tunstall.  I personally think that ''MAYBE" Hawk should be let back on,
 with a stern warning, and that you should be taken off. That is, if Hawk
 isn't simply some other name that you use?  In that case maybe we would be
 better off without Hawk or William.
 Laura
 AKA The Pied Piper

 -Original Message-
 From: William Hugh Tunstall [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 1:44 PM
 Subject: Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison

  -Caveat Lector-
 
 Hawk has informed me that he was removed from the list.
 I would like the listowner to reconsider his or her decision.
 All of us have been guilty of intemperate remarks from time to time on
 this list. (myself included.) I'm on the opposite end of the political
 spectrum from the dread bird, and I didn't find his posts that offensive.
 I've read some blatantly anti-semitic stuff that was far more offensive,
 in my opinion, that his posts..
 
 Best wishes,
 William
 

 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
 screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
 frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
 spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
 gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
 be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
 nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
 
 Archives Available at:
 http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 
 To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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 Om

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

Hawk wrote:

 FROM THE DIXIEDAYS-L MAILING LIST.

 Gerald Harp wrote:

   -Caveat Lector-
 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  writes:
 
   My  understanding of law has lead me to believe that the southern states had
 the legal right to leave the union and that they did so lawfully. As I stated, the
 Supreme Court of the time was probably in agreement with  this position. It was
 Lincoln and others in the northern states who  ignored their oathes to the
 Constitution.

That is my understanding as well, I have been doing a lot of research concerning
this and I have some questions

Why did states like Maine, New York, even Wisconsin, think they had the right to
secede ?

Virginia was one state ..yet part of that state broke away and became another, how can
this happen if secession is not constitutional ?

Why did the Southron states have to reapply for admission into statehood ?

When the 14th amendment was being voted on ...how come they found out for a brief
period they were non-states and could not vote on it ?

Just a few questions


  What motivated  them.  They did not perform an act merely because it was legal,
 i.e. they did  not act arbitrarily.

--No it wasn't illegal, there was talk about the northern states doing..seceding
as well.

  They joined in the Confederacy because it stood for their way of seeing, their way
 of living.  That way was based upon slavery.  The Southern leadership could not stay
 in the Union without accepting a gradual change over in the dirty little condition
 that made their way possible.

No it was more based on states rights, slavery would of disappeared on its on with
the westward movement..so the last sentence above is incorrect.

 The North was not going to accept additional slave states and the opposition to
 slavery was growing.

-But who had sold the slaves to the South ?




 Carlene M. Wojahn

 Yep...that is still my name..I am still no one else.

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om