Re: [CTRL] Think Twice ...

2001-11-13 Thread Nakano Nakamura

-Caveat Lector-

--- Euphorian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 An Open Letter to the Anti-War Demonstrators:
 Think Twice Before You Bring The War Home
 By David Horowitz
 I appeal to all those young people who
 participated in anti-war demonstrations on 150
 college campuses this week,. to think again and not
to
 join an anti-war effort against America’s coming
 battle with international terrorism.
_
Nakano comments:
First, this is not a war against international
terrorism, it's a war about oil in the Caspian Basin.
It's a war over who controls the oil and natural gas,
who builds and controls the huge pipelines that will
carry it to markets. It's about money and power.
War Against Terrorism is the marketing slogan used
to promote this war. It's the same thing, and is just
as false as were:
The War To Make The World Safe For Democracy
 and The War To End All Wars.
Anyone who actually believes these labels probably
still believes in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.
__
David Horowitz:
 The blood of hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese,
 and tens of thousands of Americans, is on the hands
 of the anti-war activists who prolonged the struggle
 and gave victory to the Communists.
__
Nakano comments:
This is pure unadulterated BULLHOCKEY!!
This conclusion is the result of the same aberrant
mental processes which result in kidnap victims
identifying with, agreeing with, and joining the
kidnappers (ala Patty Hearst.
And it wasn't hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese,
it was an estimated two-million Vietnamese. Their
blood, and the blood of the 58,000+ Americans who
were killed in that war, is on the guilty hands of
the people and Agencies who made the policy and the
decisions to fight that war. The blood is on the hands
of the people who ordered 500,000 plus U.S. troops to
Vietnam...the people who ordered the bombing...the
people who refused to end the war even when it was
overwhelmingly apparent that the American People
wanted it ended. This is an incomplete list, but the
bloody hands are those of the CIA, Lyndon Johnson,
Richard Nixon, Henry Kissinger, and those who served
in those Administrations who didn't have the courage
to oppose the war. (I intentionally exclude John
Kennedy from this list, because he ordered all
Americans out of Viet Nam by 1965.  His order,
National Security action Memorandum 263, was given
just about 10 days before he was murdered. Lyndon
Johnson cancelled that order before Kennedy was
buried.)

I urge all Americans to think twice before they
blindly support this war. This isn't being
unpatriotic. All Americans have the obligation to
speak out against and to lawfully oppose, the policies
and the actions of their government when they
sincerely believe their government is wrong...and
especially when they believe their government is
violating the Constitution and
the common laws of God and humanity.
 Nakano



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Re: [CTRL] Think Twice ...

2001-11-13 Thread thew

-Caveat Lector-

we did not lose the war in Vietnam because of protests here.
we lost because it was not a winnable war, it was not a moral war, and it
was not our war.


--
  Doubt.
   Doubt thyself.
   Doubt even if thou doubtest thyself.
   Doubt all.
   Doubt even if thou doubtest all.
   It seems sometimes as if beneath all conscious doubt
 there lay some deepest certainty.  O kill it!  Slay the
 snake!
   The horn of the Doubt-Goat be exalted
   Dive deeper, ever deeper, into the Abyss of Mind,
 until thou unearth the fox THAT.  On, hounds!
 Yoicks!  Tally-ho!  Bring THAT to bay!
   Then, wind the Mort!

   Uncle Al. the kiddies pal




NEURONAUTIC INSTITUTE on-line: http://home.earthlink.net/~thew

 From: Euphorian [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: Conspiracy Theory Research List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 01:48:45 -0600
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [CTRL] Think Twice ...

 -Caveat Lector-

 From FPM


 }}}Begin
 www.frontpagemag.com
 Return to normal view
 An Open Letter to the Anti-War Demonstrators:
 Think Twice Before You Bring The War Home
 By David Horowitz
 FrontPageMagazine.com | September 27, 2001
 URL: http://www.frontpagemag.com/horowitzsnotepad/2001/hn09-27-01p

 Editor’s Note:
 The text below is being run as an advertisement in college
 newspapers around
 the country. To see a graphic version of the ad, click here.
 I AM a
 former anti-war activist who helped to organize the first campus
 demonstration
 against the war in Vietnam at the University of California,
 Berkeley in 1962.
 I appeal to all those young people who participated in anti-war
 demonstrations on 150 college campuses this week, to think again and not to
 join an anti-war effort against America’s coming battle with international
 terrorism.
 The hindsight of history
 has shown that our efforts in the 1960s to end the war in Vietnam had two
 practical
 effects. The first was to prolong the war itself. Every testimony by North
 Vietnamese
 generals in the postwar years has affirmed that they knew they could not
 defeat
 the United States on the battlefield, and that they counted on the division
 of our people at home to win the war for them. The Vietcong forces we were
 fighting
 in South Vietnam were destroyed in 1968. In other words, most of the war and
 most of the casualties in the war occurred because the dictatorship of North
 Vietnam counted on the fact Americans would give up the battle rather than pay
 the price necessary to win it. This is what happened. The blood of hundreds
 of thousands of Vietnamese, and tens of thousands of Americans, is on the
 hands
 of the anti-war activists who prolonged the struggle and gave victory to the
 Communists.
 The second effect of the
 war was to surrender South Vietnam to the forces of Communism. This resulted
 in the imposition of a monstrous police state, the murder of hundreds of
 thousands
 of innocent South Vietnamese, the incarceration in re-education camps
 of hundreds of thousands more, and a quarter of a century of abject poverty
 imposed by crackpot Marxist economic plans, which continue to this day. This,
 too, is the responsibility of the so-called anti-war movement of the 1960s.
 I say so-called anti-war
 movement, because while many Americans were sincerely troubled by America’s
 war effort, the organizers of this movement were Marxists and radicals who
 supported
 a Communist victory and an American defeat. Today the same people and their
 youthful followers are organizing the campus demonstrations against America’s
 effort to defend its citizens against the forces of international terrorism
 and anti-American hatred, responsible for the September attacks.
 I know, better than most,
 the importance of protecting freedom of speech and the right of citizens to
 dissent. But I also know better than most, that there is a difference between
 honest dissent and malevolent hate, between criticism of national policy, and
 sabotage of the nation’s defenses. In the 1960s and 1970s, the tolerance of
 anti-American hatreds was so high, that the line between dissent and treason
 was eventually erased. Along with thousands of other New Leftists, I was one
 who crossed the line between dissent and actual treason. (I have written an
 account of these matters in my autobiography, Radical Son). I did so for what
 I thought were the noblest of reasons: to advance the cause of social
 justice and peace. I have lived to see how wrong I was and
 how much damage we did – especially to those whose cause we claimed to
 embrace,
 the peasants of Indo-China who suffered grievously from our support for the
 Communist enemy. I came to see how precious are the freedoms and opportunities
 afforded by America to the poorest and most humble of its citizens, and how
 rare its virtues are in the world at large.
 If I have one regret from
 my radical years, it is that this country was too tolerant towards the treason
 of its

Re: [CTRL] Think Twice ...

2001-11-13 Thread Agent Smiley

-Caveat Lector-

--- Euphorian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 The hindsight of history
   has shown that our efforts in the 1960s to end the
 war in Vietnam had two practical
   effects. The first was to prolong the war itself.

what a spin...put blame for prolonging the war on
those choosing to WAGE THE DAMN THING!


=
~
As I've often told Ginsberg, you can't blame the President for the state of the 
country, it's always the poets' fault.
You can't expect politicians to come up with a vision, they don't have it in them. 
Poets have to come up with the vision and they have to turn it on so it sparks and 
catches hold.
KEN KESEY (1935 - 2001)

http://www.sinkers.org/news_earth.html

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Re: [CTRL] Think Twice ...

2001-11-13 Thread Bill Howard

-Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 11/13/01 8:35:08 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 we did not lose the war in Vietnam because of protests here.

we lost because it was not a winnable war, it was not a moral war, and it

was not our war. 

Not bad, you are getting better. I agree with two out of three of your stated
reasons.
BHoward
“It is wrong, always, everywhere and for everyone to believe anything upon
insufficient evidence.”—W.K. Clifford

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Re: [CTRL] Think Twice ...

2001-11-13 Thread thew

-Caveat Lector-

ok tell me about the 3rd
-- -- -- -- -- - -- - -- -- - -  - - -- --- -- - - -  - -- - - - --
 -- - -- -


Never wear your best trousers when you go out to fight for freedom and
truth.

Henrik Ibsen





NEURONAUTIC INSTITUTE on-line: http://home.earthlink.net/~thew

 From: Bill Howard [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: Conspiracy Theory Research List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 12:57:25 EST
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [CTRL] Think Twice ...

 -Caveat Lector-

 In a message dated 11/13/01 8:35:08 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  we did not lose the war in Vietnam because of protests here.

 we lost because it was not a winnable war, it was not a moral war, and it

 was not our war. 

 Not bad, you are getting better. I agree with two out of three of your stated
 reasons.
 BHoward
 ³It is wrong, always, everywhere and for everyone to believe anything upon
 insufficient evidence.²‹W.K. Clifford

 A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A
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 ==
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 sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'?with its many half-truths, mis-
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 That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
 always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
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 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
 
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 Om

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Re: [CTRL] Think Twice ...

2001-11-13 Thread Bill Howard

-Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 11/13/01 10:52:40 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 -Caveat Lector-


ok tell me about the 3rd 

It was the part about moral war. War is not moral, never has been and never
will be. War is about killing people and breaking things. Why would a sane
G*d want to take sides in something like this? Mark Twain once wrote a short
story on this subject which is worth reflecting on.

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Re: [CTRL] Think Twice ...

2001-11-13 Thread Mike Switzer

-Caveat Lector-

The War Prayer by Twain is an amazing work...
had my copy out on my coffee table since this madness started...

Mike

-Original Message-
From: Bill Howard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 12:59 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Think Twice ...


-Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 11/13/01 10:52:40 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 -Caveat Lector-


ok tell me about the 3rd 

It was the part about moral war. War is not moral, never has been and never
will be. War is about killing people and breaking things. Why would a sane
G*d want to take sides in something like this? Mark Twain once wrote a short
story on this subject which is worth reflecting on.

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DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
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propagandic
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sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'-with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds-is used politically by different groups with
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That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Think Twice ...

2001-11-13 Thread thew

-Caveat Lector-

fair enough

though as you know I'm not one who looks to some deity for the source of
morals -

but as the son of holocaust camp survivors, I do see that some wars are
worth fighting - perhaps moral wasn't exactly the right word to use... but I
can't quite come up with a better one at the moment

which mark twain story?
-- -- -- -- -- - -- - -- -- - -  - - -- --- -- - - -  - -- - - - --
 -- - -- -


Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original
dimensions.


Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.






NEURONAUTIC INSTITUTE on-line: http://home.earthlink.net/~thew

 From: Bill Howard [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: Conspiracy Theory Research List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 13:59:29 EST
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [CTRL] Think Twice ...

 -Caveat Lector-

 In a message dated 11/13/01 10:52:40 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  -Caveat Lector-


 ok tell me about the 3rd 

 It was the part about moral war. War is not moral, never has been and never
 will be. War is about killing people and breaking things. Why would a sane
 G*d want to take sides in something like this? Mark Twain once wrote a short
 story on this subject which is worth reflecting on.

 A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A
 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
 screeds are unwelcomed. Substance?not soap-boxing?please!  These are
 sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'?with its many half-truths, mis-
 directions and outright frauds?is used politically by different groups with
 major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
 That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
 always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
 credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
 
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 Om

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Re: [CTRL] Think Twice ...

2001-11-13 Thread Kelly

-Caveat Lector-

thew wrote:

 fair enough

 though as you know I'm not one who looks to some deity for the source of
 morals -

 but as the son of holocaust camp survivors, I do see that some wars are
 worth fighting - perhaps moral wasn't exactly the right word to use... but I
 can't quite come up with a better one at the moment

Don't let the world get you down at this particular moment.  It's still
a barbaric place and there's nothing that people seem to like doing more
than kicking a dog when it's down.

Kelly

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That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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[CTRL] Think Twice ...

2001-11-12 Thread Euphorian

-Caveat Lector-

From FPM


}}}Begin
www.frontpagemag.com
  Return to normal view
An Open Letter to the Anti-War Demonstrators:
  Think Twice Before You Bring The War Home
By David Horowitz
FrontPageMagazine.com | September 27, 2001
URL: http://www.frontpagemag.com/horowitzsnotepad/2001/hn09-27-01p

Editor’s Note:
  The text below is being run as an advertisement in college
newspapers around
  the country. To see a graphic version of the ad, click here.
I AM a
  former anti-war activist who helped to organize the first campus
demonstration
  against the war in Vietnam at the University of California,
Berkeley in 1962.
  I appeal to all those young people who participated in anti-war
  demonstrations on 150 college campuses this week, to think again and not to
  join an anti-war effort against America’s coming battle with international 
terrorism.
The hindsight of history
  has shown that our efforts in the 1960s to end the war in Vietnam had two practical
  effects. The first was to prolong the war itself. Every testimony by North Vietnamese
  generals in the postwar years has affirmed that they knew they could not defeat
  the United States on the battlefield, and that they counted on the division
  of our people at home to win the war for them. The Vietcong forces we were fighting
  in South Vietnam were destroyed in 1968. In other words, most of the war and
  most of the casualties in the war occurred because the dictatorship of North
  Vietnam counted on the fact Americans would give up the battle rather than pay
  the price necessary to win it. This is what happened. The blood of hundreds
  of thousands of Vietnamese, and tens of thousands of Americans, is on the hands
  of the anti-war activists who prolonged the struggle and gave victory to the
  Communists.
The second effect of the
  war was to surrender South Vietnam to the forces of Communism. This resulted
  in the imposition of a monstrous police state, the murder of hundreds of thousands
  of innocent South Vietnamese, the incarceration in re-education camps
  of hundreds of thousands more, and a quarter of a century of abject poverty
  imposed by crackpot Marxist economic plans, which continue to this day. This,
  too, is the responsibility of the so-called anti-war movement of the 1960s.
I say so-called anti-war
  movement, because while many Americans were sincerely troubled by America’s
  war effort, the organizers of this movement were Marxists and radicals who supported
  a Communist victory and an American defeat. Today the same people and their
  youthful followers are organizing the campus demonstrations against America’s
  effort to defend its citizens against the forces of international terrorism
  and anti-American hatred, responsible for the September attacks.
I know, better than most,
  the importance of protecting freedom of speech and the right of citizens to
  dissent. But I also know better than most, that there is a difference between
  honest dissent and malevolent hate, between criticism of national policy, and
  sabotage of the nation’s defenses. In the 1960s and 1970s, the tolerance of
  anti-American hatreds was so high, that the line between dissent and treason
  was eventually erased. Along with thousands of other New Leftists, I was one
  who crossed the line between dissent and actual treason. (I have written an
  account of these matters in my autobiography, Radical Son). I did so for what I 
thought were the noblest of reasons: to advance the cause of social justice and 
peace. I have lived to see how wrong I was and
  how much damage we did – especially to those whose cause we claimed to embrace,
  the peasants of Indo-China who suffered grievously from our support for the 
Communist enemy. I came to see how precious are the freedoms and opportunities
  afforded by America to the poorest and most humble of its citizens, and how
  rare its virtues are in the world at large.
If I have one regret from
  my radical years, it is that this country was too tolerant towards the treason
  of its enemies within. If patriotic Americans had been more vigilant in the
  defense of their country, if they had called things by their right names, if
  they had confronted us with the seriousness of our attacks, they might have
  caught the attention of those of us who were well-meaning but utterly misguided.
  And they might have stopped us in our tracks.
This appeal is for those
  of you who are out there today attacking your country, full of your
own self-righteousness,
  but who one day might also live to regret what you have done. David

  Horowitz is editor-in-chief of FrontPageMagazine.com and president
of the Center
  for the Study of Popular Culture.

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