Re: [CTRL] Werner von Braun - was I WAS DICK CHENEY'S SEX SLAVE'
I thought it was obvious that I meant the Germany of the Nazi regime in power during WWII. I have nothing against Germans as a people or nation. The taint is associated with the Nazis since they were in power during much of the time that this technology was developed and they used ruthless and bloody means to test and build it. On Sat, 12 August 2000, "Damian B. Cooper" wrote: At 04:25 PM 8/11/00 -0700, tenebroust [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Too bad this technology will always be tainted by the blood and death perpetrated by the Germans, and every country since them (and before for that matter). Well, then, wouldn't it logically and humanely follow that to save the world from the "blood and death" that WILL be perpetrated by Germans in the future that we should quietly and humanely exterminate them all now? You will undoubtedly enjoy reading "Germany Must Perish", by Theodore Kaufmann. DBC A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om "Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, in The Matrix "My God it's full of stars!" Dave Bowman, in 2001: A Space Odyssey ___ Free Unlimited Internet Access! Try it now! http://www.zdnet.com/downloads/altavista/index.html ___ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Werner von Braun - was I WAS DICK CHENEY'S SEX SLAVE'
At 04:25 PM 8/11/00 -0700, tenebroust [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Too bad this technology will always be tainted by the blood and death perpetrated by the Germans, and every country since them (and before for that matter). Well, then, wouldn't it logically and humanely follow that to save the world from the "blood and death" that WILL be perpetrated by Germans in the future that we should quietly and humanely exterminate them all now? You will undoubtedly enjoy reading "Germany Must Perish", by Theodore Kaufmann. DBC A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Werner von Braun - was I WAS DICK CHENEY'S SEX SLAVE'
In a message dated 8/11/00 1:03:59 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: With von Braun on our side - we beat the bastards to the moon which was dream of JFK; but look who takes or tried to take the bows here recently, attempting to use even little John John.so now father and son both dead.and they did take a Gideon Bible to the moon. Whatever aspirations the US had, if it could not achieve them without the aid of Nazis, they weren't worth achieving. Our country did survive in name, but look where we are now? We are a national security state that feeds its own people into the machine of survival. Better that our country risk annihilation than lose her soul. http://www.akula.com/~donefer/paper/paper.htm In 1944 and 1945, Wernher von Braun's V-2 rockets were causing mass destruction in England and Belgium. Von Braun was Hitler's secret weapon, a man feared greatly by the Allies. - As the 1930's progressed, Wernher von Braun's activity with Nazis grew deeper. He explains his actions later in life: "In 1939 [sic] I was officially demanded to join the National Socialist Party. At this time, I was already Technical Director at Peenemünde The technical work had ... attracted attention at higher and higher levels. Thus, my refusal to join the party would have meant that I would have to abandon the work of my life. My membership in the party did not include any political activity. 8" On the other hand, Dorenberger used an old rule of the Weimar Republic still in use, forcing anyone in the military to abstain from political affiliation. The only Nazi affiliation Dorenberger had was his membership in the German hunting club, leading one to question von Braun's reasoning for joining the party. Dorenberger claimed that he himself was more interested in deer than politics. From 1950 on, he lived in Huntsville, Alabama working with the army and NASA until he died in 1976. Wernher von Braun went from enemy to national hero because of his involvement in the creation of the Saturn V rocket, the rocket that in 1969 put a man on the moon. Questions about his military allegiances were set aside for the time while he was cast as a national hero. One of the main questions raised by the story of Wernher von Braun is whether a man's achievements should be based on where and why he did something or if it should be based on pure scientific benefit in the long run. Von Braun's story raises some compelling questions relating to this. Ultimately, to this point in history, the V-2 and the ICBM far outweigh the few forays into space made possible by von Braun's rocket technology. --- Samantha A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Werner von Braun - was I WAS DICK CHENEY'S SEX SLAVE'
For a first hand, eye witness account of von Braun's war crimes as told by one of his victims, read Dora by Jean Michel, ISBN 0-03-055596-5 Michel was a French Resistabce fighter who was captured and wound up a slave laborer at Camp Dora where the V-2s were built. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Werner von Braun - was I WAS DICK CHENEY'S SEX SLAVE'
*Both* the US and Soviet space programs, and through them every other space program, relied on German missile technology. The US and the Soviets split the original Peenemuende team between them, although von Braun did his best to get as many of his men as possible into the hands of the Americans. Although the V-2 production facilities in Thuringia fell in the Soviet sector of Occupied Germany, the cream of the senior production staff (including the commander of the Mittelwerke and supervisor of the attached concentration camp) surrendered to the Americans, by design. Every missile or spaceship launched from this planet since 1945 has been based on the German designs and design philosophy. Now, it is certainly true that both Goddard, the American rocketry pioneer, and Tsiolkovsky, the Russian rocketry pioneer, could have led comparable development operations which would inevitably have led to highly successful rocket designs, but the fact remains that it was the Germans, led by von Braun, who prevailed by a quirk of historical fate. I don't know how history will ultimately judge von Braun, or for that matter the Americans and Russians who took over the German research in the name of the Cold War. But the man was a technological genius, beyond doubt. He may well also have been guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity, but justice belongs to the victors, and by the time the Nuremberg Trials convened, von Braun and his Paperclip team were safely secure in White Sands, New Mexico, and--like so many other "former" Nazis who had turned their coats--under the protecting aegis of the United States Government. - Original Message - From: "Samantha L." [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Werner von Braun - was I WAS DICK CHENEY'S SEX SLAVE' In a message dated 8/11/00 1:03:59 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: With von Braun on our side - we beat the bastards to the moon which was dream of JFK; but look who takes or tried to take the bows here recently, attempting to use even little John John.so now father and son both dead.and they did take a Gideon Bible to the moon. Whatever aspirations the US had, if it could not achieve them without the aid of Nazis, they weren't worth achieving. Our country did survive in name, but look where we are now? We are a national security state that feeds its own people into the machine of survival. Better that our country risk annihilation than lose her soul. snip A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Werner von Braun - was I WAS DICK CHENEY'S SEX SLAVE'
In a message dated 8/11/00 3:46:50 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But the man was a technological genius, beyond doubt. He may well also have been guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity, but justice belongs to the victors, and by the time the Nuremberg Trials convened, von Braun and his Paperclip team were safely secure in White Sands, New Mexico, and--like so many other "former" Nazis who had turned their coats--under the protecting aegis of the United States Government. I don't agree that justice belongs to the victors. The guy with the biggest gun for the moment rules the roost, but that has nothing at all to do with justice. Samantha A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Werner von Braun - was I WAS DICK CHENEY'S SEX SLAVE'
You've nicely summed up the Paperclip operation and the role of Von Braun as well. One should note that V.B. also designed spacecraft in the 1930's that were supposed to go to Mars. Much other technology, including that which is used for political, and thought control, as well as spying, etc., owes its existence to developments made by the Germans at the time. One must wonder at times whos hand controls history when we see a country so absolutely rife with genius in everything technological be ultimately defeated by nations that are distant seconds at best. Germany certainly was a marvel, and we are the inheritors of much of what they developed, and certainly have done more in the years since the war to further the aims of the Germans. Too bad this technology will always be tainted by the blood and death perpetrated by the Germans, and every country since them (and before for that matter). On Fri, 11 August 2000, "Robert F. Tatman" wrote: *Both* the US and Soviet space programs, and through them every other space program, relied on German missile technology. The US and the Soviets split the original Peenemuende team between them, although von Braun did his best to get as many of his men as possible into the hands of the Americans. Although the V-2 production facilities in Thuringia fell in the Soviet sector of Occupied Germany, the cream of the senior production staff (including the commander of the Mittelwerke and supervisor of the attached concentration camp) surrendered to the Americans, by design. Every missile or spaceship launched from this planet since 1945 has been based on the German designs and design philosophy. Now, it is certainly true that both Goddard, the American rocketry pioneer, and Tsiolkovsky, the Russian rocketry pioneer, could have led comparable development operations which would inevitably have led to highly successful rocket designs, but the fact remains that it was the Germans, led by von Braun, who prevailed by a quirk of historical fate. I don't know how history will ultimately judge von Braun, or for that matter the Americans and Russians who took over the German research in the name of the Cold War. But the man was a technological genius, beyond doubt. He may well also have been guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity, but justice belongs to the victors, and by the time the Nuremberg Trials convened, von Braun and his Paperclip team were safely secure in White Sands, New Mexico, and--like so many other "former" Nazis who had turned their coats--under the protecting aegis of the United States Government. - Original Message - From: "Samantha L." [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Werner von Braun - was I WAS DICK CHENEY'S SEX SLAVE' In a message dated 8/11/00 1:03:59 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: With von Braun on our side - we beat the bastards to the moon which was dream of JFK; but look who takes or tried to take the bows here recently, attempting to use even little John John.so now father and son both dead.and they did take a Gideon Bible to the moon. Whatever aspirations the US had, if it could not achieve them without the aid of Nazis, they weren't worth achieving. Our country did survive in name, but look where we are now? We are a national security state that feeds its own people into the machine of survival. Better that our country risk annihilation than lose her soul. snip A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om "Welcome to the desert of the real.&quo
Re: [CTRL] Werner von Braun - was I WAS DICK CHENEY'S SEX SLAVE'
mode="historian" I didn't say I thought that justice SHOULD belong to the victors--I said it DOES belong to the victors. The victor always dictates the history of the war and passes judgment on acts committed during it...whether that control over events and interpretation is justified or legitimate or not. I could equally have used Mao's dictum that "power grows from the barrel of a gun." /mode Bob - Original Message - From: "Samantha L." [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 7:08 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Werner von Braun - was I WAS DICK CHENEY'S SEX SLAVE' In a message dated 8/11/00 3:46:50 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But the man was a technological genius, beyond doubt. He may well also have been guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity, but justice belongs to the victors, and by the time the Nuremberg Trials convened, von Braun and his Paperclip team were safely secure in White Sands, New Mexico, and--like so many other "former" Nazis who had turned their coats--under the protecting aegis of the United States Government. I don't agree that justice belongs to the victors. The guy with the biggest gun for the moment rules the roost, but that has nothing at all to do with justice. Samantha A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
