Re: [CTRL] FDR- Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust j2
-Caveat Lector- BB wrote: -Caveat Lector- I don't have much of a problem, except perhaps for Nasty Newcomers, who show up from out of nowhere and bash everyone on the list instead of employing civil, mannerly, gentlemanly disagreement. My, how touchy your are - ease up a little - you'll live longer. I'm pretty sure that we're on the same page with some issues, it's just that the vituperative rhetoric gets in the way of understanding. You seem to have remarkable insight into my grasp of WWII history-- I understand all your points about censorship, I do not understand your point in the last paragraph regarding Roosevelt --- Did you somehow conclude that I thought him a good guy? BB Damian B. Cooper wrote: -Caveat Lector- At 01:07 AM 7/6/01 -0700, BB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- Duh-uh! Pick on a word, and divert attention away from the main point which was that fdr and the fedguv had firsthand reports of massive deportation, concentration camps, and systematic murder of as many Jews as the germans could process. So the word holocaust wasn't used in '41 -- SO WHAT?? Does that mean it never happened??? What a clever rebuttal. Do not lose sight of the fact that Jews were not the only target of the lunatic's ethnic cleansing. Jews served in the armed forces of the Third Reich all the way up to and including the rank of Field Marshall. How do you explain that? You're problem is that you don't know that World War II occurred under a regime of OFFICIAL UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORSHIP. The Roosevelt administration censored the news, and the censored news became censored history. Can you tell me: when did the U.S. Government officially announce that it would stop censoring the news, AND when did it release all of the information that it held back from the American public? The answer is: there are still hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of World War II era documents that are still classified or restricted from public examination in the archives of the U.S., Russia, and other European countries. Your grasp of WW II history is nothing more than the Pavlovian reaction to a propaganda cartoon painted for you by Harry Hopkins, Alger Hiss, Henry Morganthau, and the other Commies who operated Roosevelt. And your grasp of WWII is just plain stupid. Morganthau was a Wall Street banker and insider. If you are suggesting that Roosevelt was a Commie, then you are a fool. Joshua2 DBC A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] FDR- Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust j2
-Caveat Lector- flw wrote: -Caveat Lector- flw wrote: The evidence indicates FDR knew about Pearl Harbor and did nothing; now it is clear he knew about the impending Holocaust and did nothing. Now we know what FDR really stands for: F**king Dirty Rat. flw This might come as a news flash to YOU, but WE knew about it all the time. There was NO ONE who would, or could prevent the mass annihilation of the Jews in Christian Europe. J2 Rather facile, J2. Most aware folks know all about FDR. Too many Americans,especially US Jews, look upon FDR as some kind of Great Progressive. Ole Sanctimonious Eleanor especially causes them to swoon. Eleanor's letters were full of anti Semitic comments. FDR was a Fascist anti Semite. FDR, Churchill, Stalin, and Hitler...all peas in a pod. flw I'm glad we can agree about something FLW. American Jews are mostly Liberals, and as such they suffer from a severe reality deficit. They would rather not know. Believe me. J2 A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] FDR- Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust j2
-Caveat Lector- I'm glad we can agree about something FLW. American Jews are mostly Liberals, and as such they suffer from a severe reality deficit. They would rather not know. Believe me. J2 There is hope for you. flw A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] FDR- Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust j2
-Caveat Lector- Duh-uh! Pick on a word, and divert attention away from the main point which was that fdr and the fedguv had firsthand reports of massive deportation, concentration camps, and systematic murder of as many Jews as the germans could process. So the word holocaust wasn't used in '41 -- SO WHAT?? Does that mean it never happened??? What a clever rebuttal. Do not lose sight of the fact that Jews were not the only target of the lunatic's ethnic cleansing. Germans other than Jews - undesirables such as cripples, victims of MS and ALS, the mentally ill and retarded all qualified, as well as gypsies and catholic priests and nuns, in addition to others qualified as victims of 'der fuhrer' and his maniacal, sadistic butchers. Don't get round-shouldered from patting yourself on the back just because you looked it up in a reader's guide in a library. That's wonderful, but the Duh-uh! belongs to you for trying to pick a fight over a word instead of considering the idea the author conveyed in his original post. WHAT was your purpose in doing that? ___ Damian B. Cooper wrote: -Caveat Lector- At 07:05 PM 7/5/01 -0400, Nurev Ind. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: THE TIMES WEDNESDAY JULY 04 2001 Allies 'were told of Holocaust in 1941' BY BEN MACINTYRE Duh-uh! How could the Allies have been told of the Holocaust in 1941 when the term wasn't in use until 1967. Go look it up in the Readers Guide to Periodical Literature in you library. I did. DBC A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] FDR- Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust
-Caveat Lector- censorship - Please provide a reference of where you have been personally censored by the government. loss of jobs - If you are referring to unemployment, well I'm sure things were much better back in the depression before Roosevelt came along. Employment loss/gains are natural occurrences of any nation's economic lifecycle. If you are referring to the movement of manufacturing jobs to other nations for cheaper labor that is also an unfortunate natural occurrence. A labor intensive business will gravitate to where it is cheapest to run that business. withholding of university degrees - once again, please provide a reference where this has occurred (in relation to our government withholding a degree) intimidation - what kind, of who, against what? acts of terrorism - are you referring to acts of terrorism such as Oklahoma City or some other situation? Acts of terrorism have been around since the development of the nation state. There have been and always will be small groups of people who feel that violence is the only measure to get their point across. Their anger may be justified but their actions are not. Terrorism is not something explicit to the end of the twentieth century. deportation - of whom and for what reason? are not consequences suffered by people in America for raising questions about historical inaccuracies? - many people on this list on a daily basis make inaccurate and accurate comments in regards to conspiracies and America's history. Many others routinely make inflammatory remarks about recent and current standing government officials to include the President. None, to my knowledge have lost their job, had a degree withheld, been intimidated, have had an act of terrorism performed against or deported because of their comments. You are uninformed, naive, or probably both I am neither. I have no illusions about our government, its relationship with corporate America and its ability to use every means possible to protect America's economic interest. Does the government always do what's in the best interest of the American people? No. There are too many factors involved in each decision for each decision to benefit all the American people and at time some decisions benefit none. But having traveled to and seen the high taxes and unemployment rates in Europe, the abject poverty and corruption in Africa and the unbelievable political corruption in South America I would say that you my friend have it much better than most people in the world. I'll be the first to admit that America is not perfect, we don't always wear the mantle of being the world's only superpower well but I also think the world is a much better place than it would have been without America's existence. -- From: Damian B. Cooper Reply To: Conspiracy Theory Research List Sent: Friday, July 6, 2001 1:35 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] FDR- Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust -Caveat Lector- At 08:42 AM 7/5/01 -0400, Steve Suranie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But I rather like this world much more, a place where you and others like you can sift through America's past and loosely link some historical inaccuracies to find a conspiracy where there is none and not suffer any consequences. Steve You're suggesting that censorship, loss of jobs, withholding of university degrees, threats, intimidation, acts of terrorism, deportation and similar measures are not consequences suffered by people in America for raising questions about historical inaccuracies? You are uninformed, naive, or probably both. DBC A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance--not soap-boxin---please! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theor-'--with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fra-ds--is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org
Re: [CTRL] FDR- Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust j2
-Caveat Lector- flw wrote: The evidence indicates FDR knew about Pearl Harbor and did nothing; now it is clear he knew about the impending Holocaust and did nothing. Now we know what FDR really stands for: F**king Dirty Rat. flw This might come as a news flash to YOU, but WE knew about it all the time. There was NO ONE who would, or could prevent the mass annihilation of the Jews in Christian Europe. J2 Rather facile, J2. Most aware folks know all about FDR. Too many Americans,especially US Jews, look upon FDR as some kind of Great Progressive. Ole Sanctimonious Eleanor especially causes them to swoon. Eleanor's letters were full of anti Semitic comments. FDR was a Fascist anti Semite. FDR, Churchill, Stalin, and Hitler...all peas in a pod. flw A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] FDR- Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust j2
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 07/05/2001 6:08:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That is why Israel enjoys the unconditional support it gets from the world's Jews. That is not to say that it behaves properly. It doesn't. It behaves like a modern state. But if it comes down to brass tacks, we always want to have a place to go. It's a matter of survial. Not intellectual games for fat and sassy Americans and Europeans sitting safe at home. No, that is why Israel has enjoyed the basically unconditional support it has gotten from the United States and Europe. Everybody compensating for their own guilt. Israel behaves like all conquesting nations behave. I don't know whether I would consider that modern. It's not a matter of survival or a place to go. It's a matter of being able to take over and then taking it all. That is not unique to Israel. The American colonists did exactly the same thing in North America, and Spain and Portugal did a pretty fair job of it in South America. And of course Israel receives the support of American Jews. There's a little bit of guilt in that corner too. Prudy A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] FDR- Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust
-Caveat Lector- you my friend have it much better than most people in the world That's because America sucks on the world's economy like a tick. Sooner or later, they are going to get fed up and do something about it. A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER =CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. ===Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A ===To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] FDR- Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust j2
-Caveat Lector- At 01:07 AM 7/6/01 -0700, BB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- Duh-uh! Pick on a word, and divert attention away from the main point which was that fdr and the fedguv had firsthand reports of massive deportation, concentration camps, and systematic murder of as many Jews as the germans could process. So the word holocaust wasn't used in '41 -- SO WHAT?? Does that mean it never happened??? What a clever rebuttal. Do not lose sight of the fact that Jews were not the only target of the lunatic's ethnic cleansing. Jews served in the armed forces of the Third Reich all the way up to and including the rank of Field Marshall. How do you explain that? You're problem is that you don't know that World War II occurred under a regime of OFFICIAL UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORSHIP. The Roosevelt administration censored the news, and the censored news became censored history. Can you tell me: when did the U.S. Government officially announce that it would stop censoring the news, AND when did it release all of the information that it held back from the American public? The answer is: there are still hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of World War II era documents that are still classified or restricted from public examination in the archives of the U.S., Russia, and other European countries. Your grasp of WW II history is nothing more than the Pavlovian reaction to a propaganda cartoon painted for you by Harry Hopkins, Alger Hiss, Henry Morganthau, and the other Commies who operated Roosevelt. DBC A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] FDR- Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust
-Caveat Lector- At 08:17 AM 7/6/01 -0400, Steve Suranie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- censorship - Please provide a reference of where you have been personally censored by the government. You are one naive puppy, If you don't know anything and have nothing important to say, there is no censorship. It's only those who are able to say things that influence people that are censored. I have been personally censored by the government in many different ways: National Security Act restrictions, retribution by a government employer for a letter to the editor, restrictions on what may be said or discussed at public meetings like school board meetings, restrictions on what may be said or written in the work place to avoid creating a hostile work environment, tax penalties for publishing a newspaper that is political, prohibitions of endorsements of candidates in primary elections in a political newspaper, prohibitions in printing the party affiliation of candidates in elections, etc, etc. In my opinion, public education is a form of government censorship. I want my children to learn and read certain things, I want them to NOT learn or be exposed to other things. The government school authorities, prohibit the communication of things to my children that I desire to be communicated to them. The government school authorities WOULD -- if I left it to them -- tell my children things that are defamatory about their heritage, their religion, their culture, their values, or their ethnicity, One of many examples: an aquaintance of mine was the editor of a chain of neighborhood newspapers. During a city council election, his boss, the publisher got a call from the mayor. We want you to endorse candidate X. The newspaper chain had no intention of endorsing candidate X. If you don't endorse candidate X, the city will not run any of the city's official announcements in your newspaper, said the mayor. The newspaper unwillingly endorsed candidate X, and withheld news coverage of candidate Y. It happens at the local level, it happens at the state level, it happens at the federal level. Rich people buy newspaper chains because they want to control the news and put their puppet candidates in office. They don't buy newspaper chains or TV stations because, out of the goodness of their heart, they want YOU to have complete and unbiased news The New York Times and the Washington Post (the semi-official government newspapers of America) don't want you to know the truth, they want you to support the candidates and policies that they tell you about. DBC A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] FDR- Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust j2
-Caveat Lector- I don't have much of a problem, except perhaps for Nasty Newcomers, who show up from out of nowhere and bash everyone on the list instead of employing civil, mannerly, gentlemanly disagreement. My, how touchy your are - ease up a little - you'll live longer. I'm pretty sure that we're on the same page with some issues, it's just that the vituperative rhetoric gets in the way of understanding. You seem to have remarkable insight into my grasp of WWII history-- I understand all your points about censorship, I do not understand your point in the last paragraph regarding Roosevelt --- Did you somehow conclude that I thought him a good guy? BB Damian B. Cooper wrote: -Caveat Lector- At 01:07 AM 7/6/01 -0700, BB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- Duh-uh! Pick on a word, and divert attention away from the main point which was that fdr and the fedguv had firsthand reports of massive deportation, concentration camps, and systematic murder of as many Jews as the germans could process. So the word holocaust wasn't used in '41 -- SO WHAT?? Does that mean it never happened??? What a clever rebuttal. Do not lose sight of the fact that Jews were not the only target of the lunatic's ethnic cleansing. Jews served in the armed forces of the Third Reich all the way up to and including the rank of Field Marshall. How do you explain that? You're problem is that you don't know that World War II occurred under a regime of OFFICIAL UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORSHIP. The Roosevelt administration censored the news, and the censored news became censored history. Can you tell me: when did the U.S. Government officially announce that it would stop censoring the news, AND when did it release all of the information that it held back from the American public? The answer is: there are still hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of World War II era documents that are still classified or restricted from public examination in the archives of the U.S., Russia, and other European countries. Your grasp of WW II history is nothing more than the Pavlovian reaction to a propaganda cartoon painted for you by Harry Hopkins, Alger Hiss, Henry Morganthau, and the other Commies who operated Roosevelt. DBC A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] FDR- Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust
-Caveat Lector- Of course Washington knew in 1942...It was no secret at the time. American, Canadian and British newspapers in the early 1940s published details of the Nazi extermination process. Prime Minister Churchill often made speeches against the crimes (back then, the term Holocaust was not used.) Around 1943, the United States was a co-signer of a joint Allied proclamation denouncing Nazi extermination of European Jews. Yet, still, every few years US newspapers still keep coming out with breathless news about this fact that was widely known and publicized during the Second World War. And what exactly would have been Rooservelt's options? Bear in mind that prior to 1941 America was following an isolationist policy and we had a (comparatively) small military. Following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and subsequently through the first half of 1942 we were not winning the war but barely staying afloat as the Japanese marched their way through the South Pacific and we prepared to our military for the two front war, while Europe, for the most part, was conquered by Hitler and Fascism. Most of the concentration camps were in Germany and Poland. The accepted policy (without the benefit of sixty years of hindsight mixed in with some conspirational paranoia) was that the priority was the defeat of Nazism, which in turn would also lead to the saving of the Jews. And the best way to defeat Nazism was to remove their forces from Northern Africa opening the Mediterranean and allowing for an invasion of Southern Europe. At the same time the planning and build up of forces was begun for a cross channel invasion, which would develop a second European front. Any suggestion that bombing concentration camps would have saved Jews is absurd. Air bombardments at the time were a matter of quantity over quality. Since the bombers had to fly at 10,000-30,000 feet to avoid anti-aircraft fire and enemy air patrols their accuracy was very limited. To ensure that the target would be hit they used an overabundance of ordnance. Kind of like killing a fly with a shotgun. Even then, it was not a full proof method. Bombing concentration camps would have only killed the Jewish inmates of the camps (the guards would have had adequate bomb shelters) and at the best results would have had the survivors still interred, in the worst, executed in retaliation. Sending in any kind of land force was impossible due to the camps geographical location and the state and position of allied armies. An airborne/glider rescue would also have been impossible. The force would have had to been quite large to ensure its own security, half of the low and slow flying transport planes would never had made it through Nazi air defenses. If the force landed any where near their objective and intact they would then have had to conduct a fighting rescue (with at best three or four days supply of food and ammo), then move more than a 1000 miles overland, surrounded by hostile and better equipped forces with thousands of emaciated and weak internees. That is not to say that America did not have an anti-Semitic attitude (as did most of the world) back in the forties. Your anger and sense of injustice should be directed to Cordell Hull, head of the US State Department at the time. State was highly anti-Semitic and did block or slow down several programs (FDR approved by the way) that would have sped up the process for allowing European Jews to immigrate to America, provide finance for partisans and to collect information. Personally I think FDR was one of our greatest Presidents and without his leadership back then we would probably have four trading partners today, Middleeuropa (what Hitler was to call Europe after he unified it under the Nazi banner) the South East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere (what the Japanese were trying to create), Communist China and a Stalinist Soviet Union. But I rather like this world much more, a place where you and others like you can sift through America's past and loosely link some historical inaccuracies to find a conspiracy where there is none and not suffer any consequences. Steve -- From: flw Reply To: Conspiracy Theory Research List Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2001 9:47 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [CTRL] FDR- Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust -Caveat Lector- The evidence indicates FDR knew about Pearl Harbor and did nothing; now it is clear he knew about the impending Holocaust and did nothing. Now we know what FDR really stands for: F**king Dirty Rat. flw THE TIMES WEDNESDAY JULY 04 2001 Allies 'were told of Holocaust in 1941' BY BEN MACINTYRE BRITISH and American intelligence services knew of Nazi genocide plans months earlier than previously thought, according to a newly declassified document in the United States, but did not warn Jews of the impending Holocaust. A report written in November 1941, obtained by British agents and passed to the US in
Re: [CTRL] FDR- Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust j2
-Caveat Lector- flw wrote: -Caveat Lector- The evidence indicates FDR knew about Pearl Harbor and did nothing; now it is clear he knew about the impending Holocaust and did nothing. Now we know what FDR really stands for: F**king Dirty Rat. flw Starting to get a clue. Good. This might come as a news flash to YOU, but WE knew about it all the time. There was NO ONE who would, or could prevent the mass annihilation of the Jews in Christian Europe. That is why Israel enjoys the unconditional support it gets from the world's Jews. That is not to say that it behaves properly. It doesn't. It behaves like a modern state. But if it comes down to brass tacks, we always want to have a place to go. It's a matter of survial. Not intellectual games for fat and sassy Americans and Europeans sitting safe at home. J2 === THE TIMES WEDNESDAY JULY 04 2001 Allies 'were told of Holocaust in 1941' BY BEN MACINTYRE BRITISH and American intelligence services knew of Nazi genocide plans months earlier than previously thought, according to a newly declassified document in the United States, but did not warn Jews of the impending Holocaust. A report written in November 1941, obtained by British agents and passed to the US in March 1942, stated unequivocally that it had been decided to eradicate the Jews. Most historians had concluded that the West did not become aware of the Holocaust until August 1942. The information came from Gonzalo Montt Rivas, the Chilean consul in Prague, in a report to his superiors in Santiago. The consul described a German decree that Jews living abroad could no longer be German subjects and that their property would be confiscated by the Nazis. Then, interpreting the decree, he wrote: The German triumph (in the war) will leave Europe freed of Semites. It has been decided to eradicate all the Jews and send some to Poland and others to the town of Terezin, while looking for a more remote place. The consul may have been working for German intelligence, despite his country's neutrality, according to Richard Breitman, chief historian for the government agency overseeing declassification of wartime records at the National Archives and Records Administration. A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] FDR- Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust
-Caveat Lector- At 08:42 AM 7/5/01 -0400, Steve Suranie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But I rather like this world much more, a place where you and others like you can sift through America's past and loosely link some historical inaccuracies to find a conspiracy where there is none and not suffer any consequences. Steve You're suggesting that censorship, loss of jobs, withholding of university degrees, threats, intimidation, acts of terrorism, deportation and similar measures are not consequences suffered by people in America for raising questions about historical inaccuracies? You are uninformed, naive, or probably both. DBC A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] FDR- Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust j2
-Caveat Lector- At 07:05 PM 7/5/01 -0400, Nurev Ind. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: THE TIMES WEDNESDAY JULY 04 2001 Allies 'were told of Holocaust in 1941' BY BEN MACINTYRE Duh-uh! How could the Allies have been told of the Holocaust in 1941 when the term wasn't in use until 1967. Go look it up in the Readers Guide to Periodical Literature in you library. I did. DBC A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] FDR- Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust
-Caveat Lector- FDR's deviousness, his pretending surprise at Pearl, his blaming Kimmel and Short for HIS machinations, (after all, he DID win his 4th term with the promise that 'your sons will never again fight on foreign soil'), his knowledge of german atrocities and refusal to act, all have been known and documented by knowledgeable historians and patriots since AT LEAST the middle '50's. Our ambassador to Poland wrote a book entitled I Saw Poland Betrayed, thus ending his career in the late '40's. The press has chosen to remain silent. flw wrote: -Caveat Lector- The evidence indicates FDR knew about Pearl Harbor and did nothing; now it is clear he knew about the impending Holocaust and did nothing. Now we know what FDR really stands for: F**king Dirty Rat. flw THE TIMES WEDNESDAY JULY 04 2001 Allies 'were told of Holocaust in 1941' BY BEN MACINTYRE BRITISH and American intelligence services knew of Nazi genocide plans months earlier than previously thought, according to a newly declassified document in the United States, but did not warn Jews of the impending Holocaust. A report written in November 1941, obtained by British agents and passed to the US in March 1942, stated unequivocally that it had been decided to eradicate the Jews. Most historians had concluded that the West did not become aware of the Holocaust until August 1942. The information came from Gonzalo Montt Rivas, the Chilean consul in Prague, in a report to his superiors in Santiago. The consul described a German decree that Jews living abroad could no longer be German subjects and that their property would be confiscated by the Nazis. Then, interpreting the decree, he wrote: The German triumph (in the war) will leave Europe freed of Semites. It has been decided to eradicate all the Jews and send some to Poland and others to the town of Terezin, while looking for a more remote place. The consul may have been working for German intelligence, despite his country's neutrality, according to Richard Breitman, chief historian for the government agency overseeing declassification of wartime records at the National Archives and Records Administration. A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] FDR- Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust
-Caveat Lector- It was Assistant Sec. of War John J. McCloy who nixed the Auschwitz rail line bombing. He claimed it was because it would have provoked retaliation against the Jews. One cannot but wonder what he had in mind. Later McCloy was High Commissioner for Occupied Germany. He turned loose many, many Nazi war criminals, long before their sentences were up. They included Otto Ambros. Auschwitz was intended, first and foremost, to be synthetic rubber and synthetic fuel factory complex. The more well known dead Jews were to be merely a by-product. In charge of synthetic rubber production was Otto Ambros, who also had developed the root technology on which magnetic data storage is based. He was convicted of 25,000 counts of slavery and mass murder, and was sentenced to eight years in prison. ( ! ) After three and a half years, McCloy freed him. The head of the W.R. Grace Co., J. Peter Grace (a Knight of Malta) later hired Ambros as a research chemist and petitioned Congress to allow his emigration to the United States. This is the same J. Peter Grace who President Reagan appointed to head the so-called Grace Commission to make the United States government more efficient. According to Treason's Peace by Howard Watson Armbruster, Beechurst Press, New York, 1947, p 386: The Assistant Secretary of War, until 1940 was a member of the law firm of Cravath, de Gersdorff, Swain Wood, which firm . . . had been representing I.G. Farben or its affiliates in the United States. It may appear to be a coincidence that Mr. McCloy should have turned up in the War Department in 1941 in a position in which he could speak with authority on such matters as handling the destruction of that mainstay of Germany's war potential -- I.G. Farben. Later still, McCloy served on the infamous Warren Commission, which used the laws of physics defying Magic Bullet theory to cover up the coup of 11-22-63. McCloy was particularly thorough at covering up the role in the coup of certain Nazi war criminals who had been brought to America after the war to serve in American intelligence and science. For details, see: http://www.onlinetoday.com/users/smyers/jfk/Torbitt.txt For more on the Farben connection, see: http://www.sfbg.com/nessie/company.html Oh yeah, and McCloy was also the guy who designed the Pentagon building and insisted that it be aligned withtrue north. One cannot help but wonder why. A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER =CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. ===Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A ===To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
