CS: Legal-Certificate renewals
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have just had my visit by a plod. Following my application for renew. Plod asked me 'why did you send your current certificate in"? I replied 'because it asked for it on my renewal application form"! I followed with the right hand does not know what the left is doing! Regards, Longsiberia Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate renewals
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] As I said before I'd like to meet this guys solicitor/ barrister. The law was obviously broken and there was only a recommendation that a database of FAC/SGC holder be set up, not a legal requirement. Didn't one of the acts make provision for such a database to be set up, 1988? Jonathan Laws -- The 1997 Act requires a database of certificate holders, but it is not operational yet. The Govt. have interpreted this provision in the broadest manner possible, and want it to include anyone who has applied for a certificate or had a certificate revoked, and they also appear to want all guns listed in it as well. Personally I think they have bitten off more than they can chew and I am certain it violates privacy rights unless there is some sort of oversight put in place. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate renewals
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] No time limit for production of the certificate is stated in the act, the timescale for production is therefore held to be immediate (See the Road Traffic Act provisions for production of drivingdocuments for the wording that would be used otherwise). The failure to produce the certificate is an offence - the penalties for which are laid out in the schedule to the Act. These have since been modified by other Acts such as the Criminal LAw Acts that increased the penalties. Possession of a firearm or shotgun without a certificate or lawful authority is an offence in itself. Any offence reasonably suspected that can result in a prison term of five years or more (possession of a shotgun without the necessary authority?) is automaticaly an 'arrestable offence' in law. i.e. the police can arrest without further evidence or cause - in this case the person was requested to produce his certificate and refused, he was in possession of a shotgun so he could reasonably be suspected to have no certificate and the police were not required to carry out any further checks before arresting him. The police 'may' (as it says in the Act) request the production of the certificate at any time if they believe you are 'in possession' of the shotgun or firearm. This includes when its in its locked security cabinet, etc. As I said before I'd like to meet this guys solicitor/ barrister. The law was obviously broken and there was only a recommendation that a database of FAC/SGC holder be set up, not a legal requirement. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate renewals
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve The public had been making complaints about the noise, use of shotgun, etc. The person refused to present his shotgun certificate for examination. The police officers present could arrest him if his name and address were in doubt or needed to be verified. My copy of the 1968 Act went walk about some years ago, but what is the power of arrest in the schedule? As I said earlier I'd like to meet this man's solicitor/barrister. He not only avoids his client being convicted of an offence he was apparently guilty of (failing to present a certificate on request) but gains compensation from the force for an arrest that was apparently legal (despite being a little heavy handed if they believed he lived there). However, I wonder if the locals will now move on to the 'noise police' at the local authority to curb this gentleman's activities. Regards Jerry -- A person who fails to give his name and address is liable to a fine of L20 according to the schedule. Failing to produce a certificate I would think would be grounds for arrest for illegal possession so if they arrested him for that, then found out he had a certificate, that would seem a more likely scenario for suing them for wrongful arrest. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate renewals
From: nick royall, [EMAIL PROTECTED] There are 2 separate parts to this section of the act, one applying to a public place and the other to private land. It has been shown by case law that the constable must quote which section of the act he is demanding to inspect it under (the firearm or shotgun) otherwise he may not demand to see it. Case law also decided that only a constable may demand to see etc however with the rewording of other sections of the act it may not pay to be pedantic. Nick -- I dimly recall that case as well, I remember reading about it in the SRA Journal but I cannot see another section that specifically deals with private places, although Section 46, power to search with warrant, might be it. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate renewals
From: "John Hurst", [EMAIL PROTECTED] That said, allow me the thought that any cop -- regardless of the nation which s/he happens to be serving in -- should always be of the mind that s/he is a target of opportunity E.J. Too blooming right. There are only two threat levels, high and unknown. And it is prudent to deal with both of them with the same degree of care. Regards, John Hurst. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate renewals
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Section 48 of the Firearms Act 1968: "(1) A constable may demand, from any persom whom he believes to be in possession of a firearm or ammunition to which Section 1 of this Act applies, or of a shot gun, the production of his firearm certificate or, as the case may be, his shot gun certificate. (2) If a person upon whom a demand is made under this section fails to produce the certificate or to permit the constable to read it, or to show that he is entitled by virtue of this Act to have the firearm, ammunition or shot gun in his possession without holding a certificate, the constable may seize and detain the firearm, ammunition or shot gun and may require the person to declare to him immediately his name and address. (3) If under this section a person is required to declare to a constable his name and address, it is an offence for him to refuse to declare it or to fail to give his true name and address." Steve. Yes, but this man was arrested. The law says the officer can seize the guns but not arrest the person. If someone was stopped in the street in possession of a firearm and no cert it might be reasonable to assume that he would not be likely to give his real name and address, if the guns were illegally possesed. This man was on his own property however, so there would not be good grounds to detain him as they knew who he was. Jonathan Laws. -- Yes, but it's an offence under Section 2 to have a shot gun without a certificate, so they could arrest him for that if he refused to produce one. Obviously they do look pretty stupid for not checking with the licensing dept. The police did not do anything criminally wrong by arresting him, although arguably they could be held liable in civil court for being so dense. I'm still pretty amazed that anyone could get money out of the police for wrongful arrest on this one, I suspect the police thought settling was better than defending. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate renewals
From: "pa49", [EMAIL PROTECTED] We don't have constables walking around in our houses so it would be safe to assume that the law refers to a demand made whilst 'out shooting'. The 'out shooting' demand reasoning would be that the constable had become aware you had a firearm in your possession and wanted to check that you also had an FAC. That part seems almost polite and reasonable apart from it being a demand. They would surely back up a home visit demand with a warrant and a good enough reason for the demand. As this would be a response to a public complaint they would surely establish the position regarding the individual(s) involved before making the home call and if they hadn't they would be acting 'off the cuff' and would not have any reason to demand anything. I know the act doesn't mention them having to be reasonable but they do have to act appropriately and do have a Duty of Care guide line. This is possibly why they would decide to 'back-off', in such an instance, as if it went to court they would be open to a claim of over zealousness as they should have reasonably known regarding the FAC. It should be noted that no time limit is stated nor does it say where the FAC should be produced for viewing. This would indicate that the wording is not necessarily bad but allows some degree of flexibility for the constable involved when a demand is made. A known local shooter could be asked to produce, at a later time, the FAC to check it was still in force etc. Yes I know that's not very likely but I believe that the wording probably stems from the days of much greater tolerance when the application of the law could be considered and applied to the degree decided to be appropriate at the time by the constable concerned. This does apply in many cases across the rest of our laws and stems from an inherent and systemic application of why laws are required and why they are written the way they are. That traces back into the mists of time but is the reason we have "Precedence case Law". It determines some of what we can rely upon in any defence and I would suggest that the incident referred to is not the first of it's type and precedence has been set to the extent that their is likely to be a reliable defence. That does not mean it's OK to tell the "Bill" on your doorstep to '**ss off' but it is an indication that our laws are delicate structures that are constructed for our benefit and the people who write them do have to have regard for this. I don't know if all that gets us anywhere but does anyone know of any precedence or similar case law? Neil Saint -- Let's put it like this, the police in North Wales intentionally used Section 48 to stop and search shooters leaving a range to establish whether any of them were in illegal possession, and as I recall they came up with an antique rifle and a Parker-Hale M85 that were unlicensed. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate renewals
From: "pendrous", [EMAIL PROTECTED] By Terry Pendrous, Interesting article and actually quite relevent for another reason. A year or so ago, I mentioned this to one of our local Police Constables, that it would be prudent to do so for their own preservation. My reasoning being, that suppose they were asked to react to an ongoing local Burglary or Breaking and Entering!! Wouldn't it be in more than their own interest to know if the residence in question was covered by an FAC, for obvious reasons. Anyway, they took this on board and I think that they do now have such an arrangement. - Original Message - From: "TwoPints", To: "CyberShooters" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 1:33 PM Subject: CS: Legal-Certificate renewals From: "TwoPints", INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I think this applies to this thread. There is a gentleman who lives near where I work who has a small area of land upon which he lives. He shoots vermin with his shotguns on his own land. His activities appear to be totally law abiding. Due to noise complaints from his urban neighbours he has had a couple of visits from the local police. When challenged, he refuses to produce his shotgun certificate stating that the licensing authority should know whether he is licensed or not. He has been arrested due to his refusal to satisfy police of his lawful possession and activities. After a successful claim against his local police for unlawful arrest/detention etc, (which provided him with enough money for a lot more ammo) the local police have been instructed by their ACPO ranking commander not to arrest him any more. His claim was based on the grounds that the licensing authority should have set up a certificate holders database for local officers to consult, as was stated in the MacPherson report, and that over-zealous officers swifted him away before they carried out such checks, (on the non-existent database.) Interesting don't you think. 2 pints "Any law which violates the indefeasible rights of man is essentially unjust and tyrannical; it is not a law at all." Maximilien Robespierre 1793. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate renewals
From: "TwoPints", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think this applies to this thread. There is a gentleman who lives near where I work who has a small area of land upon which he lives. He shoots vermin with his shotguns on his own land. His activities appear to be totally law abiding. Due to noise complaints from his urban neighbours he has had a couple of visits from the local police. When challenged, he refuses to produce his shotgun certificate stating that the licensing authority should know whether he is licensed or not. He has been arrested due to his refusal to satisfy police of his lawful possession and activities. After a successful claim against his local police for unlawful arrest/detention etc, (which provided him with enough money for a lot more ammo) the local police have been instructed by their ACPO ranking commander not to arrest him any more. His claim was based on the grounds that the licensing authority should have set up a certificate holders database for local officers to consult, as was stated in the MacPherson report, and that over-zealous officers swifted him away before they carried out such checks, (on the non-existent database.) Interesting don't you think. 2 pints "Any law which violates the indefeasible rights of man is essentially unjust and tyrannical; it is not a law at all." Maximilien Robespierre 1793. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate renewals
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sorry Steve but doesn't the club exemption also cover attendance at ranges other than the club's own on organised club activities (such as a match or training session)? I didn't think the legislation limited the exemption to the Club's 'own' premises. I would have to agree that the exemption does not apply to members own guns kept at their own homes, though some forces have been liberal in their interpretation in that they have allowed allocated Club 'officers' (usually members of the Committee and holders of their own FAC) to hold club guns and ammunition in addition to the Club's own certificate holder. Regards Jerry -- Yes, I think you're right. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate renewals
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'd like to meet this persons solicitor/barrister - to fail to produce a SGC or FAC on request of a police officer is an offence of itself. Refusal definitely is! This seems rather similar to the case in Scotland - take them to court and they back off even though the letter of the law is on their side. Though this gentlemans case is interesting in that a governent document, the MacPherson report is being used against them. I wonder if the Cullen Report could be used against them in a similar manner - i.e. they exceeded the recommendations? Regards Jerry -- Section 48 of the Firearms Act 1968: "(1) A constable may demand, from any persom whom he believes to be in possession of a firearm or ammunition to which Section 1 of this Act applies, or of a shot gun, the production of his firearm certificate or, as the case may be, his shot gun certificate. (2) If a person upon whom a demand is made under this section fails to produce the certificate or to permit the constable to read it, or to show that he is entitled by virtue of this Act to have the firearm, ammunition or shot gun in his possession without holding a certificate, the constable may seize and detain the firearm, ammunition or shot gun and may require the person to declare to him immediately his name and address. (3) If under this section a person is required to declare to a constable his name and address, it is an offence for him to refuse to declare it or to fail to give his true name and address." Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate renewals
From: "pa49", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Any delay in issuing of either new or renewed FACs or SGCs could result in the police becoming aware of a good reason why they should not issue. Give them the rope and ...etc Neil Saint Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate renewals
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] seems they can't even keep track of who actually alive, let alone who's got a certificate Well, this leads on to another funny story concerning a certain Northern force. My Grandfather died about six years ago at the time he owned a .22 revolver and a .22 rifle. In the end the guns ended up on my cert, via if I recall a temporary cert issued to my Grandmother. Anyway, months later my Grandmother gets a visit from a uniformed copper asking why my Grandfather hadn't renewed his cert. This was after I had got them on my cert, the reason for the variation being that they had come from my Grandfather after his death. Didn't anyone think that they may just have to record this information on Grandads file? Jonathan Laws -- And the Government reckons registering every gun in a central database is workable! The mind boggles. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate renewals
From: "niel fagan", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Absolutley not, because they are wrong and if it gets to court you will be convicted of illegal possession. The other problem that has been missed is what happens if for some reason they refuse your renewal. If your cert is not in force they are perfectly entitled to come round your house, confiscate your guns and arrest you. Jonathan Laws My father (who recently passed away) had this happen to him, his cert was in for renewal, day after expiry the uniform local inspector and another uniform turn up and demand to inspect his guns, after comments about how clean and well looked after they were etc from the other uniform, she (the inspector) stated that she could see no reason why someone would want all those guns and they would be taking them with them as no cert was in force. Dad produced the letter which stated that if the paperwork was in then there was no need to lodge the guns with an RFD and told them to leave and come back with a warrant! Next morning they arrived mob handed, warrant in hand at 10:00, he'd been with his usual RFD at 8:30 and was waiting for them, they tried to snatch the RFD's receipt (unsuccessfully) and had to send a car to check all the guns were lodged. The firearms inspector called at dad's place (after his death and having had dad's cert's handed to him several months before) recently to remind dad that he needed to get his application in for renewal before the due date, seems they can't even keep track of who actually alive, let alone who's got a certificate Niel (I found the visit quite funny, though I wasn't there my brother is a real wind-up artist and had them going round in circle's...even the 3, YES THREE, uniforms sent as back-up with the inspector thought it was funny!). Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate renewals
From: "Neil Roberts", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve, here we have a problem then. If the certificate is about to expire, the police have not renewed it or issued a temporary permit, the local RFD's will not touch them, what would you do with them ? Polite answers only ! -- Hand them in to the local police station, well wrapped! It will not win the licensing dept. many friends if they cause those kinds of problems. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate renewals
From: "R A J Coe", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi fellow shooters, I've been following this thread and am a bit perplexed. Isn't there a bit in the legislation that allows members of approved Clubs to be in possession of Section 1 bits plus ammo WITHOUT an FAC. I know it's supposed only to apply to miniature rifle ranges but does the legislation as currently published actually say that. Angus -- If you are on the premises of an approved club of which you are a member engaged in club activities then you can possess a rifle or muzzle-loading pistol and ammunition without holding an FAC. Off those premises or any other kind of Section 1 firearm you have to have an FAC. This is in the club approval criteria in Section 15 of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 as amended by the 1997 Act. Miniature rifle ranges are totally exempt from the legislation under Section 11 of the 1968 Act. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate renewals
From: "Brian Toller", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The RFD in question is not going to do this for charity and although the charge will be relatively small I wonder what the reaction would be to numerous invoices appearing in the police accounts department from disgruntled shooters. Brian T -- Two words, the second one being "off"! Steve. Maybe so but I don't see that as any reason not to do it along with a covering letter to your MP and a follow up on getting the reply (particularly if the first word is connected to attempted reproduction). Brian T -- I know of cases where people have tried it, I think at least one of them is subscribed. Getting money out of the police is very hard because you have to demonstrate in most cases that they did not act in good faith. They not only have to have done something wrong, you have to show they were demonstrably wrong and were negligent. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate renewals
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear All, I've been watching this thread with interest, primarily because my FAC renewal is now a number of months away and I have started to make the preparations. My view, in full, is as follows. After the shambles in North Wales a couple of years back I have taken to ensuring that I do not leave the house without the required documentation. If I don't have my FAC, explosives licence, etc. renewed before expiry, I am committing an offence. Being convicted of such an offence would destroy my livelihood, which is something I can't risk. Whenever my house is un-occupied, even if only for a weekend, all of my firearms go into storage. The weekly cost per firearm may be small, it soon mounts up when you've got 12 of them. My friendly dealer, will only take them into storage on evidence that I'm entitled to be in possession. After all he has to protect his position and will not accept a photocopy of my FAC. If my FAC is away being renewed, I can't provide this evidence and to cover himself, David will refuse to store them. This then means that I'm off to the local police station asking them to take firearms, ammo and black powder into storage. I don't think so! When I tried to surrender some hollow-point bullets on the Saturday morning before before the deadline they were refused. I left the police station with a dilema, I still believe they should have taken responsibility for. In the mean time I have a raft of competitions for which I need to complete cards, both as an individual and as a team member. I compete to ensure that I have good cause for owning the firearms, because I doubt that target practice on its own will continue to be good cause. We are now getting to an intersting scenario. I will not wish to store my firearms and ammo until my ticket expires. If I wait that long I won't be able to place them into storage. Catch 22, or what? I will incur costs, my team members will be penalised if I can't shoot the cards, and we will all loose our entry fees. My plan? Three months before my renewal is due, I shall have completed my own set of renewal forms. My referees will be briefed. I shall send a covering letter explaining that time is of the essence (Rickard's case?) and why, together with the forms on the day after I receive them from the police. I shall enclose a copy of the letter asking for it to be receipted and returned to me. I will advise them of my intended actions, i.e. arriving at Police HQ with all of my kit for storage, should my renewal not be completed on time. I will also advise them of the likely costs associated should they fail to perform in the time period THEY HAVE PROVIDED. It may seem rather drastic to contemplate such actions, but under the currect regime I feel I have to take such measures. Anyone what to buy an interesting Management Consultancy so that I can retire to France? I've had enough of the UK. 8-( Regards, George -- The licensing system in France is no more efficient! In New York City some years ago shooters got so hacked off with the amount of time it took to renew pistol permits that they convinced the legislature to put a time limit in the law of 180 days. Our system of licensing really gets up my nose because you have to have your FAC to be able to buy guns or ammo, and the police have it for so much time because of renewals and variations that I always find myself running out of ammo. In most countries you have aseperate license and authorisations to acquire, so if you apply for a new authority to acquire you don't have to send your license in to be amended. And why do the police need your FAC while it is being renewed anyway? Why not simply send the new one and ask for the old one back when it expires? When they wrote the guidance they were worried about fraud, but it takes so long to renew them now that is a minor concern by comparison. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate renewals
From: Dave Reay, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I was told today that Herts are taking 6weeks for FAC renewal and 7weeks for a S7 permit(?). But I was also told that I would be covered provided that I had sent in my renewal forms. Well its only 7weeks to go til it expires, and counting. My understanding of the Law is that if you do not have a valid ticket then you are in illegal posession of firearms, and it does not matter a bugger what anybody tells you. Excercise your right to anal protection, and cover your arse, get your guns down to the nearest RFD and agree a figure for storage until the renewal comes through. Many years ago I found myself in the position of running out of time due to the "home visit" not being conducted early enough, I had arranged with Steve Smith RFD to store my guns until further notice and was actually in his shop when my wife phoned to let me know that the polis had agreed that all was in order and the ticket would be granted without further delay. I explained all this to Steve and asked for my guns back, he told me to p*** off as I did not have a valid FAC and he would be committing an offence if he gave them back to me! Fair enough, when the FAC arrived back I collected my possessions and Steve waived any fee, nice bloke. The upshot is that the polis got a bollocking for causing me so much hassle through his incompetance (happier days) and that was when Bailey was Chief Constable!! Anyone from the North East can give many a tale concerning Bailey, home visits for renewals long before they were required and other obstructions that he put in place without the backing of the Law. Was he a visionary? everything he did illegally is now Law, but I doubt that even he would have banned handguns. Call me a cynic, but I think this may be a Baileyesque way of removing one more shooter from the scene while giving them the kudos of having caught someone in "illegal possession" Anal protection, the only way to go! -- Dave Reay Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate renewals
From: Peter H Jackson, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Got to agree with Steve and Jonathan here. If you don't have a valid FAC in your possession then you commit an offence - absolute, no defence in law. The fact that you have applied for renewal of the FAC and been assured of it's issue by the police is a mitigation not a defence. That would be a matter of fact for a jury to consider. In the circumstances as described I believe they would decide that the new certificate was in force. Certainly, if your fee cheque has been cashed you have a certificate in force. The fee is payable for the NEW CERTIFICATE, not for an application or for a refusal to renew. I smile when people say this or that is an absolute offence. There is nearly always a line of defence if you are prepared to think about it. NEVER PLEAD GUILTY. Until Mr Blair succeeds in bulldozing his abolition of the right to a jury trial through the House of Lords, all Englishmen are innocent until a jury decides otherwise. Do you trust your local Police? In this respect, and in this police area, yes. Even if you do its safest to follow advice and ask for a Section 7 permit or lodge the guns and ammunition with an RFD. Do as you please, but if your local police say it is OK, and if you confirm that in a recorded delivery letter to your Chief Constable, with a copy to your MP, you are in the clear and you save your local licensing department a little time. Bear in mind that the more unnecessary work we create for the police the higher they must push the fees under the doctrine of full cost recovery. Rgds, Peter. www.jacksonrifles.com -- Section 7 permits take about five minutes to do, I got one off West Midlands Police the next day after they told me the afternoon before they would issue me one. I don't know what time their post goes but it couldn't have been very hard to do it. It's only a piece of paper with a list of your stuff on it. Whether or not a jury would convict you or not is absolutely not the point, it's the hassle you would be put through. Say you live in DG and you want to go to a competition at Bisley. Somewhere on the M25 you get pulled over and the police demand to see your certificate. You haven't got one so they sieze your guns. At a minimum, you have to travel all the way back down there to pick the things up. DG are already artificially forcing their costs up by interviewing the referees which is not what the guidance says (in EW at least), that is probably why they are late on the renewal. So actually, if they were forced to follow the guidance the costs would be less, not more. _They're_ the ones causing unnecessary work, not us. We can't say on the one hand that CSP are negligent for sloppy practices and then on the other say that it's okay for DG to be sloppy. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate renewals
From: "Brian Toller", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Even if you do its safest to follow advice and ask for a Section 7 permit or lodge the guns and ammunition with an RFD. The RFD in question is not going to do this for charity and although the charge will be relatively small I wonder what the reaction would be to numerous invoices appearing in the police accounts department from disgruntled shooters. Brian T -- Two words, the second one being "off"! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
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From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] DG are the ones at fault, they are also not following the law (backdated FACs? Where in the Act does it allow that?) Steve. Steve is certainly correct on this. The Police have no authority to allow you to possess firearms without either an FAC or temporary permit. Granted, the force involved is unlikely to report you for illegal possession in this case but what happens if you house gets done and it turns out that unlicenced firearms were pinched, you *will* get done as a result I guarantee it. Even if the court sees your side of things and gives you an unconditional discharge, you still have a conviction for illegal possession on your record that may prohibit you from owning firearms for a very long time. Jonathan Laws -- Well, firearm certificate renewal is the most basic of basic functions a licensing dept. has to do, the law on it is pretty clear and so is the guidance. DG are obviously not following it because I would love to see them personally interview a referee who may live in London for example! The police acting in a fuzzy way is what led to a nutcase like Thomas Hamilton keeping his FAC when he was obviously unfit to hold one, and we shouldn't let the police do it without protesting about it, I don't care how nice they happen to be as people. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
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From: "Matt Greenall", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I was told today that Herts are taking 6weeks for FAC renewal and 7weeks for a S7 permit(?). But I was also told that I would be covered provided that I had sent in my renewal forms. Well its only 7weeks to go til it expires, and counting. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
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From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Got to agree with Steve and Jonathan here. If you don't have a valid FAC in your possession then you commit an offence - absolute, no defence in law. The fact that you have applied for renewal of the FAC and been assured of it's issue by the police is a mitigation not a defence. Do you trust your local Police? Even if you do its safest to follow advice and ask for a Section 7 permit or lodge the guns and ammunition with an RFD. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
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From: "pa49", [EMAIL PROTECTED] There is NO DOUBT in my mind that not having the relevant piece of paper currently dated is a BIG risk. The backlog of passport renewals last year meant that you could not leave the country as you didn't have the appropriate 'authorisation' and IMO it's the same with FACs. Find somewhere to legally put them and avoid any possible problems. This is not a matter of trust. It is a matter of law. Neil Saint Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
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From: Peter H Jackson, [EMAIL PROTECTED] My co-terminous certificates expire in 48 hours time. Unless you have a firearm certificate in force, or a Section 7 permit to possess, then your possession would be unlawful. No ifs and buts, unlawful. BUT... the police have indicated that the certificate will be renewed as from the date of expiry, so there will be no time at which a certificate is not in force. As always, it would be prudent to confirm this in writing. Let's not get too worked up about this. The Dumfries Galloway police licensing department appears to have fallen somewhat behind with renewals due to staff shortage and/or excessive zeal in "implementing Cullen". In these circumstances, where a renewal application was made in good time, the Chief Constable is not about to try the patience of the local judiciary by sending a report to the Procurator Fiscal alleging unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition. In these circumstances I would not bother to apply for a permit unless for overseas travel, or some similar purpose. Where there is a genuine need to jump the queue, DG police have shown that they will respond positively. The above comments apply to Dumfries and Galloway where there is a reasonable level of trust and goodwill between the firearms licensing department and the large number (per capita) of sporting gun owners. The more confrontational approach suggested by Jonathan and others may be appropriate in England and in other Scottish police areas. Rgds, Peter. www.jacksonrifles.com -- I've got to disagree here, the Firearms Act 1968 says specifically that you _must_ produce a certificate if a constable asks. What this basically means is that if you DG are late, you cannot go outside their area, because what is a copper in Strathclyde going to think if you come up with the excuse that DG are late? DG are the ones at fault, they are also not following the law (backdated FACs? Where in the Act does it allow that?) Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
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From: Jonathan Spencer, [EMAIL PROTECTED] My co-terminous certificates expire in 48 hours time. Unless you have a firearm certificate in force, or a Section 7 permit to possess, then your possession would be unlawful. No ifs and buts, unlawful. I made due application for renewal in mid August. I have today been visited by a civilian firearms officer, who says that all seems in order and that the renewals will be expedited, although I know that none of my referees or co-signatories have yet been visited, When I've acted as referee, what I have said has been verified over the phone. They repeated the questions to me, and I've given them the same answers as I wrote on the form. I don't see any need for in person verification. When I requested temporary certificates, as an alternative to lodging my guns with an RFD before my certs' expiry, I was told that neither alternative was necessary for me, as the police would "keep me covered" in the interim, while my applications are being dealt with. What they are saying is this: "trust us, we won't nail you." Do you trust them? How far away from you are they: could you call in person for a S7 permit? Can any expert confirm if this is indeed the case? My reading of the law is that chief officers of police do not have the discretion to make informal declarations that one will be "kept covered" in this way. They don't have any such power. --Jonathan Spencer, firearms examiner "Justice is open to everybody in the same way as the Ritz Hotel." Judge Sturgess, 22 July 1928 Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
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From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] My co-terminous certificates expire in 48 hours time. I made due application for renewal in mid August. I have today been visited by a civilian firearms officer, who says that all seems in order and that the renewals will be expedited, although I know that none of my referees or co-signatories have yet been visited, which the CFO confirmed is something my local force insists upon. When I requested temporary certificates, as an alternative to lodging my guns with an RFD before my certs' expiry, I was told that neither alternative was necessary for me, as the police would "keep me covered" in the interim, while my applications are being dealt with. Can any expert confirm if this is indeed the case? My reading of the law is that chief officers of police do not have the discretion to make informal declarations that one will be "kept covered" in this way. Advice and opinions will be very welcome. Colin (Scotland) -- If you do not have the appropriate piece of paper, you are not covered, end of story. I'm surprised they want to _visit_ your referees and your countersignatory, they have no express legal power to do this and it will rack up their costs considerably. I've never heard of the police ever doing this before. I would phone them and demand a Section 7 permit. It only takes them about five minutes to type one up. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
