Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
And more from this "only TEENAGERS and adults" website... "Recently, I showed a friend a photograph of myself and a twelve-year-old boy with whom I was bonded years ago. We are standing side by side with my arm around his shoulder, in what I would consider a typical adult-child pose. My friend took one look at the picture and said, "You were lovers." To my surprise, he pointed out that there was absolutely no space between us. The boy had molded his body so that he was in continuous contact with me from his ankle to where his shoulder fit into my armpit. The author is classified as a violent felon, and so housed and treated, because the law defines sexual contact with a child less than eleven as a violent crime. The irony is profound. The child in question once had to go find his brother to help him remove a bothersome loose tooth because the author couldn't bear to cause him even momentary pain." Try as I might, I have been unable to find a single page on that NAMBLA website that speaks of "teenagers and adults." All they ever talk about is "boys." " -- "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy R.A.M.P.-Restore Americas Moral Pride Jodi Hoffman R.A.M.P. http://www.gocin.com/ramp Victimization of Children/Research Education Council of America 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122 FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306 TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698 TeleFax (954) 630-2280
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
At 01:17 -0400 9/19/00, Jodi Hoffman wrote: Kevin Elliott wrote: Read the stupid website if you don't believe me www.nambla.de. Here's a little something else I picked up from the same stupid website (you know...the one you say only promotes sex between teenagers and adults...) My god! Did you stay up all night to find this? It seems quite clear to me that the vast majority of the website is focused on man/teen relationships. Even so, if this were a website advocating man/baby relationships, especially those that included horses it would not affect my position one bit. These people have the right for their information to be put into the public forum. -- Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ#23758827 ___ "As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness." -- Justice William O. Douglas
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
On Sat, 16 Sep 2000, Jodi Hoffman wrote: AIDS/HIV: $39,172.00 Diabetes: $ 5,449.00 Cancer: $ 3,776.00 Heart Disease: $ 1,056.00 Stroke: $ 765.00 What's wrong with this picture? You don't get cancer by engaging in promiscuous sex. Nope. You get it by smoking. You likely get diabetes by leading an unhealthy life - overweight is a primary factor. The same goes for cardiovascular conditions as well. 'Advocate taxing girth? Sampo Syreeni [EMAIL PROTECTED], aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
If we are playing that game, I have 5000+ volumes here. All 5000 of them AND my gorilla say that you are full of it. That's "Orangutang". No, Helena was in a different room at the time. It was most certainly the Gorilla (and it is hard to make a mistake on such matters). I can send photos if you like. Phill
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
At 00:08 -0400 9/19/00, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Betweens teenagers and adults?! You must have been perusing a NAMBLA website from another world. I'm sorry but you seem to be the one in another world. Read the stupid website if you don't believe me www.nambla.de. -- Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ#23758827 ___ "As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness." -- Justice William O. Douglas
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Kevin Elliott wrote: At 00:08 -0400 9/19/00, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Betweens teenagers and adults?! You must have been perusing a NAMBLA website from another world. I'm sorry but you seem to be the one in another world. Read the stupid website if you don't believe me www.nambla.de. -- Sorry. I was referring to my copies. -- "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy R.A.M.P.-Restore Americas Moral Pride Jodi Hoffman R.A.M.P. http://www.gocin.com/ramp Victimization of Children/Research Education Council of America 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122 FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306 TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698 TeleFax (954) 630-2280
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Kevin Elliott wrote: At 00:08 -0400 9/19/00, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Betweens teenagers and adults?! You must have been perusing a NAMBLA website from another world. I'm sorry but you seem to be the one in another world. Read the stupid website if you don't believe me www.nambla.de. On second thought, I just checked out the stupid website you mentioned. At http://www.nambla.de/topics.htm (one of the webpages which offers books for sale). The cover of one of those books shows a very young boy. There is no possible way that child is a teenager. You're wrong. -- "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy R.A.M.P.-Restore Americas Moral Pride Jodi Hoffman R.A.M.P. http://www.gocin.com/ramp Victimization of Children/Research Education Council of America 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122 FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306 TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698 TeleFax (954) 630-2280
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Kevin Elliott wrote: Read the stupid website if you don't believe me www.nambla.de. Here's a little something else I picked up from the same stupid website (you know...the one you say only promotes sex between teenagers and adults...) be boys with names like Jimmy Joey ~ let's say one of them is almost eight, raggedy-kneed blue- jeans an old slouch tweed cap, hair eyes both the same soft Venetian brown, body svelte as a Caravaggio urchin-cherub ~ and the other ten--a-half, huge slightly crazy green eyes, world record eyelashes, hair the color of Lindisfarne-gospel goldleaf ~ wild enthusiasts, boastful liars, agents of chaos, cuddle-monsters, extortionists of toys favors, fancy-dancers, dirty jokesters, natural-born exiles from the Mundus Imaginalis ~ right! there must be millions like them in these frozen flatlands, millions of secret epiphanies in thousands of icy boxy little houses at every point of the night-whistle-echoing nation ~ but imagine just this once instead of staying on the Wabash Cannonball or whatever Zephyr you disembark just here now finally penetrate the mystery of these lost-town boys who might have waited unknowingly forever for someone to notice their beauty, might have grown old and heavy, square dull without ever communicating their dirty-sweet fragrance sheer unreasoning joy to a single poet ~ but this time you finally get off the train in this godforsaken grain-embargoed cowburg ~ and thanks to the whim of some nearly defunct amerindian pagan-pervert genius locii this time at last you get to meet Jimmy a Joey who are precisely as imagined, feed them cheeseburgers pink shakes bribe them with action-figures gum, these two microcosms, these two fire-clowns ~ so that all of us in a moment of mutual unspoken relief at this shattering of worshipful destinies, all of us suddenly gracefully have to embrace kiss, kiss chaste cool on the lips grin like bobcats for this fortunate derailment, this whistle-stop, this milk-run, this hobo's muscatel" -- "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy R.A.M.P.-Restore Americas Moral Pride Jodi Hoffman R.A.M.P. http://www.gocin.com/ramp Victimization of Children/Research Education Council of America 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122 FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306 TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698 TeleFax (954) 630-2280
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Ok, you can reword are reiterate your claims. How about backing them up with documentation? (if it's been 'reinforced' every year, it surely is not secret and you must have some links to back up your claims) BTW of your new ones: 1) Would you NOT have them available to all persons regardless of age? Do we really need more teenage pregnancies? (BTW in that year many states restricted access to birth control, my brother's then 17 year old wife could not purchase it it Cal.) 2) why should people be prohibited from participation in child care because they are gay, bisexual or lesbian? Perhaps heterosexuals should be prohibited from child care for the same reasons. 3) Document (not rephrase) this, Jodi 4) Well this country is kind of short on enemies right now since the disappearance of the evil empire... maybe it's time to attack a real enemy. This is, of course similar to the last times, wild claims (probably from some fundie tract) and lots of bluster and no content when challenged to support the claims. Jay Aside to Lizard: I'll be gone for a few days but watching my mail when I get back, try to follow up and make sure we get some documentation. thx At 11:46 AM 9/16/2000 -0400, Jodi Hoffman wrote: In 1972 (the year before the APA unilaterally decided homosexuality was "no longer an illness") the Gay Rights Platform was drawn up at the convention of the National Coalition of Gay Organizers. It was officially set forth at the Gay Pride March on Washington, D.C. on April 25, 1993 and has been reinforced every year since. By the way, a couple more of the demands: 1) Demand that contraceptives and abortion services be made available to all persons, regardless of age (what the hell does that matter to homosexuals???); 2) Full inclusion of lesbians, homosexual men, bisexuals and transgenders in education of children and child care; 3) Legalization of all forms of sexual expression, including pedophilia, changing age of consent laws to allow sex with children; 4) demand that Federal Defense budget funds be diverted to cover AIDS patients' medical expenses... The 1998 Federal Budget included $4.746 *BILLION* for AIDS funding. That was a $465 million increase over the 1997 Budget, which is more funding than all forms of cancer combined. Current Federal Money (your tax dollars and mine) spent per death: AIDS/HIV: $39,172.00 Diabetes: $ 5,449.00 Cancer: $ 3,776.00 Heart Disease: $ 1,056.00 Stroke: $ 765.00 What's wrong with this picture? You don't get cancer by engaging in promiscuous sex. Funding should not be based on sexual behaviors. Jay Holovacs wrote:
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
- Original Message - From: "Kevin Elliott" [EMAIL PROTECTED] than the rest of NATO combined. HEll, ignoring turkey we have more territory than the rest of NATO combined! Did the U.S. senate finally ratify the Canada Annexation Treaty?
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: Jay: I've given information which is readily available to anyone who takes the time to investigate it. But you have failled to provide information which should be readily available to you if you are telling the truth. You are the person who is making the claim, the onus is on you to provide the evidence to support it. The fact that the few details you have provided turned out to be untrue hardly lends credibility to your argument. Phill In that case, I'll make you an offer. You or anyone else on this list are welcome to read through our modest collection of over 2,000 books, three four-foot tall file cabinets (all full), various shelves, etc...just like we did. -- "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy R.A.M.P.-Restore Americas Moral Pride Jodi Hoffman R.A.M.P. http://www.gocin.com/ramp Victimization of Children/Research Education Council of America 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122 FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306 TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698 TeleFax (954) 630-2280
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: Jay: I've given information which is readily available to anyone who takes the time to investigate it. But you have failled to provide information which should be readily available to you if you are telling the truth. You are the person who is making the claim, the onus is on you to provide the evidence to support it. The fact that the few details you have provided turned out to be untrue hardly lends credibility to your argument. Phill In that case, I'll make you an offer. You or anyone else on this list are welcome to read through our modest collection of over 2,000 books, three four-foot tall file cabinets (all full), various shelves, etc...just like we did. Very good. Now, let's have cites. The proper format is Author, title, date, page numbers, publishing house. ISBN numbers would be nice, too.
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
By the way, if Jody only wants to fax the document, and Petro only wants to receive it by email, Petro can set up a JFAX.COM account which will accept faxes and email them to him (as TIFF files.) At 12:06 AM 9/15/00 -0700, petro wrote: petro wrote: Prove it. Produce the documentation that makes that claim. Come on. I double dog dare you--and not some stupid joke, or have wit assertion (which is most of what comes out of your mouth). There is this thing called "The internet". It's a wonderful method for spreading (dis-) information. Scan them, compress them, and mail them to me. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ** Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Jodi's fantasy world again. Ok Jodi..document your claims which 'march on Washington" Please specifiy who made these 'demands' and the actual quotes involved (not your imaginative paraphrases) Of course, if your past behavior on this list is any indicator, statements were wildly interpreted to suit your strawman perceptions, and I suspect actual quotes will not be forthcoming. jay At 12:30 AM 9/16/2000 -0400, Jodi Hoffman wrote: It's already been demanded, Tom. During the Gay Pride March on Washington, the state and federal demands included: 1) Repeal of all age-of-consent laws (for sex with kids); 2) Repeal of ALL marriage laws (3 men, 4 kids, 1 baby...); 3) Repeal of all public sex laws (including with kids); 4) Repeal of all laws against prostitution(even children); 5) Repeal of all sodomy laws (even with kids); 6) Federal funding of all sex-change operations; 7) Federal funding of artificial insemination of lesbians; 8) total access to Boy Scouts by male homosexuals; 9) sex ed taught by homosexuals in all public schools; and more... --
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In 1972 (the year before the APA unilaterally decided homosexuality was "no longer an illness") the Gay Rights Platform was drawn up at the convention of the National Coalition of Gay Organizers. It was officially set forth at the Gay Pride March on Washington, D.C. on April 25, 1993 and has been reinforced every year since. By the way, a couple more of the demands: 1) Demand that contraceptives and abortion services be made available to all persons, regardless of age (what the hell does that matter to homosexuals???); 2) Full inclusion of lesbians, homosexual men, bisexuals and transgenders in education of children and child care; 3) Legalization of all forms of sexual expression, including pedophilia, changing age of consent laws to allow sex with children; 4) demand that Federal Defense budget funds be diverted to cover AIDS patients' medical expenses... The 1998 Federal Budget included $4.746 *BILLION* for AIDS funding. That was a $465 million increase over the 1997 Budget, which is more funding than all forms of cancer combined. Current Federal Money (your tax dollars and mine) spent per death: AIDS/HIV: $39,172.00 Diabetes: $ 5,449.00 Cancer: $ 3,776.00 Heart Disease: $ 1,056.00 Stroke: $ 765.00 What's wrong with this picture? You don't get cancer by engaging in promiscuous sex. Funding should not be based on sexual behaviors. Jay Holovacs wrote: Jodi's fantasy world again. Ok Jodi..document your claims which 'march on Washington" Please specifiy who made these 'demands' and the actual quotes involved (not your imaginative paraphrases) Of course, if your past behavior on this list is any indicator, statements were wildly interpreted to suit your strawman perceptions, and I suspect actual quotes will not be forthcoming. jay At 12:30 AM 9/16/2000 -0400, Jodi Hoffman wrote: It's already been demanded, Tom. During the Gay Pride March on Washington, the state and federal demands included: 1) Repeal of all age-of-consent laws (for sex with kids); 2) Repeal of ALL marriage laws (3 men, 4 kids, 1 baby...); 3) Repeal of all public sex laws (including with kids); 4) Repeal of all laws against prostitution(even children); 5) Repeal of all sodomy laws (even with kids); 6) Federal funding of all sex-change operations; 7) Federal funding of artificial insemination of lesbians; 8) total access to Boy Scouts by male homosexuals; 9) sex ed taught by homosexuals in all public schools; and more... -- -- "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy R.A.M.P.-Restore Americas Moral Pride Jodi Hoffman R.A.M.P. http://www.gocin.com/ramp Victimization of Children/Research Education Council of America 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122 FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306 TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698 TeleFax (954) 630-2280
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
4) demand that Federal Defense budget funds be diverted to cover AIDS patients' medical expenses... The 1998 Federal Budget included $4.746 *BILLION* for AIDS funding. That was a $465 million increase over the 1997 Budget, which is more funding than all forms of cancer combined. Current Federal Money (your tax dollars and mine) spent per death: Jodi is apparently oblivious to the fact that AIDS is not the single largest cause of death in Africa. It is also a disease that affects the young. Research into the diseases of old age is unlikely to cause a significant extension of the patients lifetime. That is why cancer recieves more funding than heart disease. Spending the federal defense budget on almost anything other than military pork would be a good thing. The US millitary budget is more than half the discressionary spending of the US. It is greater than the combined spending of all the NATO allies combined and of the combined budget of the 19 other countries in the top 20 mmilitary spending nations. If the US military has a preparedness problem the problem is not lack of resources. Why is it that the people who always say that a problem cant be solved by spending more money sing a different tune for military spending? Phill
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
You don't approve of free speech. You don't approve of freedom of religion. You don't approve of the right to petition the government. Tell me, Jodi, is there any part of the First Amendment you DO support? You know, Cuba is just a short swim from Florida. You'd like it there. No free speech, no free religion, no protests...your ideal society. Nahh, far to liberal for her. How about Burma? Phill
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
The military is currently cannibalizing everything it can to keep as many units as it possibly can active. If less of the 'defense' budget ended up spent on barracks that serve no military purpose, planes that the Pentagon don't want and gold plated research projects, there would be no problem. Phill
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
If it was 'officially set forth' one would think you could produce quotes rather than paraphrases. And maybe name the correct organization. (NCGO doesn't seem to exist, if Altavista is anything to go by) Try looking under the protocols of the elders of Zion. Phill
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
If it was 'officially set forth' one would think you could produce quotes rather than paraphrases. And maybe name the correct organization. (NCGO doesn't seem to exist, if Altavista is anything to go by) Try looking under the protocols of the elders of Zion. All of the gay organizations were disowned by the Elders after an ILGO official criticized the Elder Chairman's choice of cilantro over parsley in the chicken salad at the last conference. She's a bit touchy about such things.
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
4) demand that Federal Defense budget funds be diverted to cover AIDS patients' medical expenses... The 1998 Federal Budget included $4.746 *BILLION* for AIDS funding. That was a $465 million increase over the 1997 Budget, which is more funding than all forms of cancer combined. Current Federal Money (your tax dollars and mine) spent per death: Jodi is apparently oblivious to the fact that AIDS is not the single largest cause of death in Africa. That should of course be is the single largest cause. Phill
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Thank you. I will get this information to you promptly. I have to ask a
third person to do it for me. Thank you very much Judi and God bless you.
regards
Joe Baptista
http://www.dot.god/
dot.GOD Hostmaster
On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
If you're serious, send it. We own a law firm. Furthermore, a lot of
the cases we handle are pro bono, especially when children are involved.
We would help in any way we can. What you say doesn't surprise me.
!Dr. Joe Baptista wrote:
People don't seem to understand what free speech is all about. You might
be interested in knowing Jodi that Hitlers Germany had one of the most
progressive free speech policies in the world. You could say whatever you
wanted to say, provided it was authorized by the state.
I don't support free speech because it's the fashionable thing to
do. Free speech is the basic right of all. The content of that right is
irrelevant.
Now - you spending alot of time on the sex angle here. I don't think you
understand what freedom of speech means. If I were to tell you that I had
personal knowledge of the rape by canadian politicians and senior
bureacrats of young boys from fort lauderdale during the 60, 70, 80's -
and that these rapes and further investigation of those who abuse these
children is being intentionally suppressed by senior police officers and
law officers in Canada - how would you react to this?
Now here's the kicker. I have all of that knowledge and I am prevented by
court order from exposing any of these people. You can thank Judge
William Browne of the Ontario Court for that.
It's people like you who are willing to deny others rights who end up
taking away my rights to expose these political child molesters.
Would you like to follow up with the investigating officer in fort
lauderdale and verify this? You talk a big talk Jodi - now do you have
the passion to walk the walk and help these former kids. Just let me know
and I will phone someone who will forward you a URL. We don't want to
break our court order you understand ;-)
regards
Joe Baptista
http://www.dot.god/
dot.GOD Hostmaster
On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.
Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late." They are
referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little
boy. Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting
intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?
Jay Holovacs wrote:
You miss the point... I have never read their site, I do not intend to.
That is immaterial.
I am addressing the other issue, that your crowd too is protected by free
speech rights even though there are plenty who would like to hold you
responsible for crime against gays and abortion providers.
jay
- Original Message -
From: Jodi Hoffman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Jay Holovacs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Lizard [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Declan McCullagh [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Jay Holovacs wrote:
You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT
the
same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they
advocate violence to children)
Oh, please. Anal sex with an eight year old child is not violent?
Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech
protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is
murdered or an abortion clinic bombed.
jay
- Original Message -
From: Jodi Hoffman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Lizard [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Declan McCullagh [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Ah, the Lizard slinks to the support of child rapists and
murderers. Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First
Amendment, Liz. I'm sure if it were your son, you would feel
differently.
--
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore America's Moral Pride
Jodi Hoffman R.A.M.P. http://www.gocin.com/ramp
Victimization of Children/Research Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122 FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
People don't seem to understand what free speech is all about. You might
be interested in knowing Jodi that Hitlers Germany had one of the most
progressive free speech policies in the world. You could say whatever you
wanted to say, provided it was authorized by the state.
I don't support free speech because it's the fashionable thing to
do. Free speech is the basic right of all. The content of that right is
irrelevant.
Now - you spending alot of time on the sex angle here. I don't think you
understand what freedom of speech means. If I were to tell you that I had
personal knowledge of the rape by canadian politicians and senior
bureacrats of young boys from fort lauderdale during the 60, 70, 80's -
and that these rapes and further investigation of those who abuse these
children is being intentionally suppressed by senior police officers and
law officers in Canada - how would you react to this?
Now here's the kicker. I have all of that knowledge and I am prevented by
court order from exposing any of these people. You can thank Judge
William Browne of the Ontario Court for that.
It's people like you who are willing to deny others rights who end up
taking away my rights to expose these political child molesters.
Would you like to follow up with the investigating officer in fort
lauderdale and verify this? You talk a big talk Jodi - now do you have
the passion to walk the walk and help these former kids. Just let me know
and I will phone someone who will forward you a URL. We don't want to
break our court order you understand ;-)
regards
Joe Baptista
http://www.dot.god/
dot.GOD Hostmaster
On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.
Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late." They are
referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little
boy. Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting
intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?
Jay Holovacs wrote:
You miss the point... I have never read their site, I do not intend to.
That is immaterial.
I am addressing the other issue, that your crowd too is protected by free
speech rights even though there are plenty who would like to hold you
responsible for crime against gays and abortion providers.
jay
- Original Message -
From: Jodi Hoffman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Jay Holovacs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Lizard [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Declan McCullagh [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Jay Holovacs wrote:
You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT
the
same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they
advocate violence to children)
Oh, please. Anal sex with an eight year old child is not violent?
Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech
protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is
murdered or an abortion clinic bombed.
jay
- Original Message -
From: Jodi Hoffman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Lizard [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Declan McCullagh [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Ah, the Lizard slinks to the support of child rapists and
murderers. Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First
Amendment, Liz. I'm sure if it were your son, you would feel
differently.
--
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore America's Moral Pride
Jodi Hoffman R.A.M.P. http://www.gocin.com/ramp
Victimization of Children/Research Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122 FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698 TeleFax (954) 630-2280
--
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore Americas Moral Pride
Jodi Hoffman R.A.M.P. http://www.gocin.com/ramp
Victimization of Children/Research Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122 FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698 TeleFax (954) 630-2280
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Actually, she got shot at and roughed up by AN members. (AN has a habit of disavowing relations with members once they get in trouble with The Elders of Zion.) This woman and her daughter just "happened" to be far from home, out near the AN compound, and their car, they claim, just "happened" to backfire. I doubt the backfiring theory very much...none of my cars has _ever_ backfired, and I've been driving since 1968. I would bet a lot of money that this woman, a leftie simp-wimp, took a shot at the compound she hated so much. Coeur D'Alene has a lot of tourism going on, and you must not get out much. I hear a backfire at least once a week in Boston. Most cars don't backfire, essentially it is a sign that the engine is seriously out of tune. Tim is guilty of statistics abuse, because it never happens to Tim he assumes it can never happen to anyone who is passing the local Nazi encampment. What Tim does not explain is why sending a truck full of thugs off to beat up someone carrying a loaded, recently fired weapon is a reasonable or even a sensible response. In any case, if she was roughed up, without provocation, then those who roughed her up are solely to blame. Suing AN was merely an example of "deep pockets" and "joint and several liability" doctrines, motivated by PC sentiments. The Southern Law Poverty Center routinely uses this tactic to silence those it doesn't like. The problem with the KKK, AN and other groups of thugs isn't what they say, it is what they do - beat people up. As for being PC, can anyone explain how an organization could be less tollerant of opposing views than the AN? Phill
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Phill Hallam-Baker writes: The problem with the KKK, AN and other groups of thugs isn't what they say, it is what they do - beat people up. As for being PC, can anyone explain how an organization could be less tollerant of opposing views than the AN? Perhaps not less tolerant, but certainly more dangerous: by having government as its enforcer. This is why folks are disturbed by the lawsuits against NAMBLA and the like. Not that most of us have any use for them or their philosophy, but that the folks suing them are in effect using the power of government to "beat them up". - GH _ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com.
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
If you're serious, send it. We own a law firm. Furthermore, a lot of the cases we handle are pro bono, especially when children are involved. We would help in any way we can. What you say doesn't surprise me. !Dr. Joe Baptista wrote: People don't seem to understand what free speech is all about. You might be interested in knowing Jodi that Hitlers Germany had one of the most progressive free speech policies in the world. You could say whatever you wanted to say, provided it was authorized by the state. I don't support free speech because it's the fashionable thing to do. Free speech is the basic right of all. The content of that right is irrelevant. Now - you spending alot of time on the sex angle here. I don't think you understand what freedom of speech means. If I were to tell you that I had personal knowledge of the rape by canadian politicians and senior bureacrats of young boys from fort lauderdale during the 60, 70, 80's - and that these rapes and further investigation of those who abuse these children is being intentionally suppressed by senior police officers and law officers in Canada - how would you react to this? Now here's the kicker. I have all of that knowledge and I am prevented by court order from exposing any of these people. You can thank Judge William Browne of the Ontario Court for that. It's people like you who are willing to deny others rights who end up taking away my rights to expose these political child molesters. Would you like to follow up with the investigating officer in fort lauderdale and verify this? You talk a big talk Jodi - now do you have the passion to walk the walk and help these former kids. Just let me know and I will phone someone who will forward you a URL. We don't want to break our court order you understand ;-) regards Joe Baptista http://www.dot.god/ dot.GOD Hostmaster On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Jodi Hoffman wrote: You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay. Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late." They are referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little boy. Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you? Jay Holovacs wrote: You miss the point... I have never read their site, I do not intend to. That is immaterial. I am addressing the other issue, that your crowd too is protected by free speech rights even though there are plenty who would like to hold you responsible for crime against gays and abortion providers. jay - Original Message - From: Jodi Hoffman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jay Holovacs [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lizard [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Declan McCullagh [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 11:45 AM Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial? Jay Holovacs wrote: You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT the same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they advocate violence to children) Oh, please. Anal sex with an eight year old child is not violent? Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is murdered or an abortion clinic bombed. jay - Original Message - From: Jodi Hoffman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lizard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Declan McCullagh [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 10:56 AM Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial? Ah, the Lizard slinks to the support of child rapists and murderers. Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First Amendment, Liz. I'm sure if it were your son, you would feel differently. -- "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy R.A.M.P.-Restore America's Moral Pride Jodi Hoffman R.A.M.P. http://www.gocin.com/ramp Victimization of Children/Research Education Council of America 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122 FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306 TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698 TeleFax (954) 630-2280 -- "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy R.A.M.P.-Restore Americas Moral Pride Jodi Hoffman R.A.M.P. http://www.gocin.com/ramp Victimization of Children/Research Education Council of America 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122 FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
petro wrote: You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay. Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late." They are referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little boy. Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you? Prove it. Produce the documentation that makes that claim. Come on. I double dog dare you--and not some stupid joke, or have wit assertion (which is most of what comes out of your mouth). -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ** Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural Give me your telefax number and load your machine with paper. I'm waiting. -- "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy R.A.M.P.-Restore Americas Moral Pride Jodi Hoffman R.A.M.P. http://www.gocin.com/ramp Victimization of Children/Research Education Council of America 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122 FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306 TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698 TeleFax (954) 630-2280
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Jodi Hoffman wrote: If you're serious, send it. We own a law firm. Furthermore, a lot of the cases we handle are pro bono, especially when children are involved. You "own" a law firm, eh? Big surprise there.
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Jodi Hoffman writes: Declan McCullagh forwards: Frisoli, the Curley lawyer, has been making very outrageous and false statements about what was on the web site. Because the media has no access to the site, no one can contradict him. ... Printed material from NAMBLA is difficult to find. Members of NAMBLA will speak to the press only under conditions of strict anonymity because they fear for their lives. And the web site is not accessible. I knew there was a reason I printed out NAMBLA's website throughout the years. Maybe I should contact this child's parents as well as their attorney. I think that would be an excellent idea. The best thing for this case would be to see what was actually on the web site. Of course, I would suggest showing it to everyone, and not just the Curley family lawyers. Because of NAMBLA had nothing to do with the murder, I'm sure you wouldn't want to see them falsely found liable. I wonder if you would tell the parents to their face how important you think it is to preserve the information put out by the people who helped cause their son to be murdered, rather than doing something to help prevent it from happening again. So your printouts of the NAMBLA web site show where they encourage people to rape and/or murder children? Do you have any quotes? "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy Always a good quote. So what is the truth about what was on the NAMBLA web site? Yell it from the rooftops. -- Colin
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
At 03:11 AM 9/13/00 -0400, Jodi Hoffman wrote: I knew there was a reason I printed out NAMBLA's website throughout the years. Maybe I should contact this child's parents as well as their attorney. Maybe you should do the same. Maybe you really are a member of NAMBLA. It certainly sounds like it. I wonder if you would tell the parents to their face how important you think it is to preserve the information put out by the people who helped cause their son to be murdered, rather than doing something to help prevent it from happening again. Ah, the fascists rise to the bait! Freedom of speech is a moral absolute. The words of NAMBLA are as important, and about as morally sound, as the words of Jodi Hoffman. And, IMO, about as likely to cause a murder.
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Lizard wrote: At 03:11 AM 9/13/00 -0400, Jodi Hoffman wrote: I knew there was a reason I printed out NAMBLA's website throughout the years. Maybe I should contact this child's parents as well as their attorney. Maybe you should do the same. Maybe you really are a member of NAMBLA. It certainly sounds like it. I wonder if you would tell the parents to their face how important you think it is to preserve the information put out by the people who helped cause their son to be murdered, rather than doing something to help prevent it from happening again. Ah, the fascists rise to the bait! Freedom of speech is a moral absolute. The words of NAMBLA are as important, and about as morally sound, as the words of Jodi Hoffman. And, IMO, about as likely to cause a murder. Ah, the Lizard slinks to the support of child rapists and murderers. Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First Amendment, Liz. I'm sure if it were your son, you would feel differently. -- "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy R.A.M.P.-Restore Americas Moral Pride Jodi Hoffman R.A.M.P. http://www.gocin.com/ramp Victimization of Children/Research Education Council of America 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122 FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306 TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698 TeleFax (954) 630-2280
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Colin Rafferty wrote: Jodi Hoffman writes: Declan McCullagh forwards: Frisoli, the Curley lawyer, has been making very outrageous and false statements about what was on the web site. Because the media has no access to the site, no one can contradict him. ... Printed material from NAMBLA is difficult to find. Members of NAMBLA will speak to the press only under conditions of strict anonymity because they fear for their lives. And the web site is not accessible. I knew there was a reason I printed out NAMBLA's website throughout the years. Maybe I should contact this child's parents as well as their attorney. I think that would be an excellent idea. The best thing for this case would be to see what was actually on the web site. Of course, I would suggest showing it to everyone, and not just the Curley family lawyers. Because of NAMBLA had nothing to do with the murder, I'm sure you wouldn't want to see them falsely found liable. I wonder if you would tell the parents to their face how important you think it is to preserve the information put out by the people who helped cause their son to be murdered, rather than doing something to help prevent it from happening again. So your printouts of the NAMBLA web site show where they encourage people to rape and/or murder children? Do you have any quotes? "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy Always a good quote. So what is the truth about what was on the NAMBLA web site? Yell it from the rooftops. -- Colin "Yell it from the rooftops." Colin, you devil, you read the Bible? -- "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy R.A.M.P.-Restore Americas Moral Pride Jodi Hoffman R.A.M.P. http://www.gocin.com/ramp Victimization of Children/Research Education Council of America 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122 FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306 TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698 TeleFax (954) 630-2280
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
At 10:56 AM 9/13/00 -0400, Jodi Hoffman wrote: Ah, the Lizard slinks to the support of child rapists and murderers. Nope, only to the support of those who advocate it, just like I support your right to free speech. I daresay you're much more dangerous to children than any NAMBLA member could ever be. All they want is a childs body. You want to destroy their soul. Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First Amendment, Liz. I'm sure if it were your son, you would feel differently. I support the right of people to post recipes for stir-fried cat on their web pages. It's disgusting, but it's their right. If they tried ACTING on such impulses, of course, they'd discover why we have a SECOND amendment...
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT the same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they advocate violence to children) Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is murdered or an abortion clinic bombed. jay - Original Message - From: Jodi Hoffman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lizard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Declan McCullagh [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 10:56 AM Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial? Ah, the Lizard slinks to the support of child rapists and murderers. Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First Amendment, Liz. I'm sure if it were your son, you would feel differently.
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
You miss the point... I have never read their site, I do not intend to. That is immaterial. I am addressing the other issue, that your crowd too is protected by free speech rights even though there are plenty who would like to hold you responsible for crime against gays and abortion providers. jay - Original Message - From: Jodi Hoffman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jay Holovacs [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lizard [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Declan McCullagh [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 11:45 AM Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial? Jay Holovacs wrote: You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT the same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they advocate violence to children) Oh, please. Anal sex with an eight year old child is not violent? Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is murdered or an abortion clinic bombed. jay - Original Message - From: Jodi Hoffman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lizard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Declan McCullagh [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 10:56 AM Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial? Ah, the Lizard slinks to the support of child rapists and murderers. Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First Amendment, Liz. I'm sure if it were your son, you would feel differently. -- "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy R.A.M.P.-Restore America's Moral Pride Jodi Hoffman R.A.M.P. http://www.gocin.com/ramp Victimization of Children/Research Education Council of America 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122 FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306 TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698 TeleFax (954) 630-2280
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Jay Holovacs wrote: You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT the same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they advocate violence to children) Oh, please. Anal sex with an eight year old child is not violent? Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is murdered or an abortion clinic bombed. jay - Original Message - From: Jodi Hoffman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lizard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Declan McCullagh [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 10:56 AM Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial? Ah, the Lizard slinks to the support of child rapists and murderers. Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First Amendment, Liz. I'm sure if it were your son, you would feel differently. -- "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy R.A.M.P.-Restore Americas Moral Pride Jodi Hoffman R.A.M.P. http://www.gocin.com/ramp Victimization of Children/Research Education Council of America 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122 FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306 TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698 TeleFax (954) 630-2280
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
At 11:27 AM -0400 9/13/00, Jay Holovacs wrote:
You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT the
same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they
advocate violence to children)
Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech
protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is
murdered or an abortion clinic bombed.
Actually, the tide of civil lawsuits against all sorts of
organizations is rising. Aryan Nations was just ordered to pay some
multimillion dollar fee because some woman was harassed or attacked
or had her feelings hurt--not sure which--by some people she claimed
were connected to or influenced by AN.
I watched noted spinster Alan Dershowitz expostulating that lawsuits
to bankrupt Aryan Nation are _good_, becuase AN espouses hate, but
that lawsuits against NAMBLA are _bad_, for some reason I didn't
stick around long enough to hear.
This issue of lawsuits about speech is a terribly important one. It
tends to get lost in the debate when people say "But the _government_
is not suppressing speech!"
Actually, it _is_. By court decisions, by even letting such lawsuits
go forward, it is supporting such suppressions of speech. "SLAPP"
suits are another example.
("Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation," as when a lumber
company slaps a civil lawsuit on a critic of their logging
operations. Even the _filing_ of a lawsuit essentially forces the
target to hire his own $400 an hour lawyers. (Yeah, I know what
Duncan would say: "Throw the subpoena away. Make yourself
judgement-proof. Ignore the matter." Well, nice theory, hard in
practice for anyone with real assets.)_
We as a culture have swung far away from "sticks and stones may break
my bones but names will never hurt me" toward a culture of lawsuits.
And the lawyer lobby supports and embraces this culture, getting laws
passed making it easier every day to suppress speech.
Crypto helps in various ways, of course. Both Aryan Nations and
NAMBLA will be helped, along with Friends of the Earth and Pacific
Lumber.
Censorious bitches like Jodi Hoffman will splutter.
--Tim May
--
-:-:-:-:-:-:-:
Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments.
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
At 11:27 AM -0400 9/13/00, Jay Holovacs wrote: You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT the same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they advocate violence to children) Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is murdered or an abortion clinic bombed. Actually, the tide of civil lawsuits against all sorts of organizations is rising. Aryan Nations was just ordered to pay some multimillion dollar fee because some woman was harassed or attacked or had her feelings hurt--not sure which--by some people she claimed were connected to or influenced by AN. Actually, she got shot at and roughed up by AN members. (AN has a habit of disavowing relations with members once they get in trouble with The Elders of Zion.)
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
[A veteran free speech activist in Cambridge, Mass. sent me this. Any offers of mirroring should go to the list, where I assume they'll be duly forwarded. I wonder how long the HTML files in question here would last on a Geocities/etc account. --Declan] Did Curley's lawyers at least have the smarts to grab a snapshot of the site before getting it taken down?
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
I knew there was a reason I printed out NAMBLA's website throughout the years. Maybe I should contact this child's parents as well as their attorney. Maybe you should do the same. Maybe you really You definitely should. A quick email from anybody on this list and your printouts will be subpoenaed. (By which side, I know not.) are a member of NAMBLA. It certainly sounds like it. I wonder if you Maybe you're an alien from space. would tell the parents to their face how important you think it is to preserve the information put out by the people who helped cause their son to be murdered, rather than doing something to help prevent it from happening again.
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
At 4:57 PM -0400 9/13/00, Omri Schwarz wrote: At 11:27 AM -0400 9/13/00, Jay Holovacs wrote: You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT the same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they advocate violence to children) Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is murdered or an abortion clinic bombed. Actually, the tide of civil lawsuits against all sorts of organizations is rising. Aryan Nations was just ordered to pay some multimillion dollar fee because some woman was harassed or attacked or had her feelings hurt--not sure which--by some people she claimed were connected to or influenced by AN. Actually, she got shot at and roughed up by AN members. (AN has a habit of disavowing relations with members once they get in trouble with The Elders of Zion.) This woman and her daughter just "happened" to be far from home, out near the AN compound, and their car, they claim, just "happened" to backfire. I doubt the backfiring theory very much...none of my cars has _ever_ backfired, and I've been driving since 1968. I would bet a lot of money that this woman, a leftie simp-wimp, took a shot at the compound she hated so much. A pseudonymous person sent me a note on this woman and her plans, including this excerpt, which I agree with: "The fact the woman, supposedly a random passing stranger, intends to use the money and convert the compound to a 'Peace Center' makes me think the entire thing was a setup. " In any case, if she was roughed up, without provocation, then those who roughed her up are solely to blame. Suing AN was merely an example of "deep pockets" and "joint and several liability" doctrines, motivated by PC sentiments. The Southern Law Poverty Center routinely uses this tactic to silence those it doesn't like. I still say we should sue Operation Push for every asset it has. Hymietown, indeed. --Tim May -- -:-:-:-:-:-:-: Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments.
Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay. Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late." They are referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little boy. Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you? Jay Holovacs wrote: You miss the point... I have never read their site, I do not intend to. That is immaterial. I am addressing the other issue, that your crowd too is protected by free speech rights even though there are plenty who would like to hold you responsible for crime against gays and abortion providers. jay - Original Message - From: Jodi Hoffman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jay Holovacs [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lizard [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Declan McCullagh [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 11:45 AM Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial? Jay Holovacs wrote: You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT the same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they advocate violence to children) Oh, please. Anal sex with an eight year old child is not violent? Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is murdered or an abortion clinic bombed. jay - Original Message - From: Jodi Hoffman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lizard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Declan McCullagh [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 10:56 AM Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial? Ah, the Lizard slinks to the support of child rapists and murderers. Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First Amendment, Liz. I'm sure if it were your son, you would feel differently. -- "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy R.A.M.P.-Restore America's Moral Pride Jodi Hoffman R.A.M.P. http://www.gocin.com/ramp Victimization of Children/Research Education Council of America 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122 FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306 TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698 TeleFax (954) 630-2280 -- "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy R.A.M.P.-Restore Americas Moral Pride Jodi Hoffman R.A.M.P. http://www.gocin.com/ramp Victimization of Children/Research Education Council of America 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122 FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306 TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698 TeleFax (954) 630-2280
