Bug#1007106: reportbug: please make the meaning of the a11y tag clearer
On 19.03.2022 23.37, Simon McVittie wrote: > On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 at 14:17:08 -0700, Don Armstrong wrote: >> On Sat, 19 Mar 2022, Nis Martensen wrote: >>> "This bug affects accessibility to users with disabilities. It >>> particularly impacts usability by people who rely on assistive (or other >>> adaptive) technology to use the system/package." >> >> That works for me! [Feel free to modify the appropriate pages and >> packages; I don't believe that requires any one from owner@ to do that.] > > That sounds great to me for the web page that is the canonical definition > of the tags, but I think reportbug will need something shorter - perhaps > just the first sentence? Yes, we'd just take the first sentence for reportbug. > en_GB proofreading: I think "accessibility for users with disabilities" or > "accessibility by users with disabilities" reads better than "to" in that > first sentence. Thank you. Will you do the web page update? We'll happily follow using the preposition of your choice.
Bug#1007106: reportbug: please make the meaning of the a11y tag clearer
On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 at 14:17:08 -0700, Don Armstrong wrote: > On Sat, 19 Mar 2022, Nis Martensen wrote: > > "This bug affects accessibility to users with disabilities. It > > particularly impacts usability by people who rely on assistive (or other > > adaptive) technology to use the system/package." > > That works for me! [Feel free to modify the appropriate pages and > packages; I don't believe that requires any one from owner@ to do that.] That sounds great to me for the web page that is the canonical definition of the tags, but I think reportbug will need something shorter - perhaps just the first sentence? en_GB proofreading: I think "accessibility for users with disabilities" or "accessibility by users with disabilities" reads better than "to" in that first sentence. smcv
Bug#1007106: reportbug: please make the meaning of the a11y tag clearer
On Sat, 19 Mar 2022, Nis Martensen wrote: > On 14.03.2022 22.06, Don Armstrong wrote: > > On Mon, 14 Mar 2022, Simon McVittie wrote: > >> Please could the BTS owners provide or approve a clearer wording for > >> this, if they are the "owners" of the tag definition? > > > > I'd like if it includes "accessibility" in the language (so someone can > > figure out why it's called a11y), but I'm happy with any language that > > are acceptable to advocates and the community affected by these issues. > > Something like this? > > "This bug affects accessibility to users with disabilities. It > particularly impacts usability by people who rely on assistive (or other > adaptive) technology to use the system/package." That works for me! [Feel free to modify the appropriate pages and packages; I don't believe that requires any one from owner@ to do that.] - Don Armstrong https://www.donarmstrong.com We must realize that today's Establishment is the New George III. Whether it will continue to adhere to his tactics, we do not know. If it does, the redress, honored in tradition, is also revolution. -- William O. Douglas _Points of Rebellion_
Bug#1007106: reportbug: please make the meaning of the a11y tag clearer
On 14.03.2022 22.06, Don Armstrong wrote: > On Mon, 14 Mar 2022, Simon McVittie wrote: >> Please could the BTS owners provide or approve a clearer wording for >> this, if they are the "owners" of the tag definition? > > I'd like if it includes "accessibility" in the language (so someone can > figure out why it's called a11y), but I'm happy with any language that > are acceptable to advocates and the community affected by these issues. Something like this? "This bug affects accessibility to users with disabilities. It particularly impacts usability by people who rely on assistive (or other adaptive) technology to use the system/package."
Bug#1007106: reportbug: please make the meaning of the a11y tag clearer
On Mon, 14 Mar 2022, Simon McVittie wrote: > Please could the BTS owners provide or approve a clearer wording for > this, if they are the "owners" of the tag definition? [...] I'm open to any inclusive language which you all agree on. The point of the tag was to help highlight bugs which impacted the usability of an application by someone who was using assistive (or other adaptive) technology to use an application/package/system. [So things like screen readers, dyslexia fonts, braille ttys, predictive input devices, etc. (definitely not an exclusive list of categories, of course).] I'd like if it includes "accessibility" in the language (so someone can figure out why it's called a11y), but I'm happy with any language that are acceptable to advocates and the community affected by these issues. -- Don Armstrong https://www.donarmstrong.com A Bill of Rights that means what the majority wants it to mean is worthless. -- U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia
Bug#1007106: reportbug: please make the meaning of the a11y tag clearer
Simon McVittie, le lun. 14 mars 2022 18:21:41 +, a ecrit: > "This bug particularly affects users with disabilities" > if we're using a form of wording similar to that, because what we're > interested in is whether a bug is *particularly* significant for users > of accessibility technologies etc. Yes, that's it! > rather than just any random bug that happens to have been encountered > by a user with a disability. Nope :) Samuel
Bug#1007106: reportbug: please make the meaning of the a11y tag clearer
Chime Hart, le lun. 14 mars 2022 11:28:33 -0700, a ecrit: > I would vote for the phrase "special needs" instead of any form of disabled, > as it would seem more of a positive. I understand that point of view. But then people will add the tag, saying "I have a special need: I want to drive 3 screens at a time", and whatnot :) Samuel
Bug#1007106: reportbug: please make the meaning of the a11y tag clearer
I would vote for the phrase "special needs" instead of any form of disabled, as it would seem more of a positive. Thank you Chime
Bug#1007106: reportbug: please make the meaning of the a11y tag clearer
On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 at 09:38:36 -0400, Sandro Tosi wrote: [ Simon McVittie wrote: ] > > My understanding is that the a11y tag is intended to be for bugs that > > harm Debian's usefulness for people who rely on assistive technologies > > (screen readers, high contrast themes, etc.), and more generally, people > > who are not well-served by typical application developer assumptions as > > a result of disabilities or similar factors. The debian-accessibility > > mailing list is described on https://lists.debian.org/devel.html as > > "Making Debian more accessible to people with disabilities", and the > > a11y tag is shown on bugs.debian.org as a wheelchair symbol emoji, > > which supports that interpretation. > > > > However, reportbug describes the tag as: > > > > > 1 a11y This bug is relevant to the accessibility of the package. > > > > and I think a lot of non-technical users are interpreting this as "this > > bug makes it hard for *me personally* to use this package" - but if > > we used that interpretation, then it would apply to a lot of medium to > > high severity bugs in user-facing components like desktop environments, > > and the bugs that are particularly relevant to debian-accessibility > > subscribers would be lost in the noise. > > I sympathize with your request, but please first address the rewording > the the authoritative source of tags descriptions: > https://www.debian.org/Bugs/Developer#tags Please could the BTS owners provide or approve a clearer wording for this, if they are the "owners" of the tag definition? In https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1007106#10, Samuel Thibault suggested "This bug is relevant to the accessibility of the package for disabled users." or "This bug affects disabled users." and in https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1007106#20, Cindy Sue Causey suggested "... affects people with disabilities." or "... affects users with disabilities." I would personally say "This bug particularly affects users with disabilities" if we're using a form of wording similar to that, because what we're interested in is whether a bug is *particularly* significant for users of accessibility technologies etc., rather than just any random bug that happens to have been encountered by a user with a disability. Thanks, smcv
Bug#1007106: reportbug: please make the meaning of the a11y tag clearer
On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 12:23 PM Simon McVittie wrote: > > On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 at 09:38:36 -0400, Sandro Tosi wrote: > > I sympathize with your request, but please first address the rewording > > the the authoritative source of tags descriptions: > > https://www.debian.org/Bugs/Developer#tags > > Who "owns" the text on that page? Should I be talking to the BTS team, or > the web team, or someone else? since "Debian BTS administrators " is mentioned in that page footer, i think they are probably the first contact (they may redirect if that's no correct) Thanks, -- Sandro "morph" Tosi My website: http://sandrotosi.me/ Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi Twitter: https://twitter.com/sandrotosi
Bug#1007106: reportbug: please make the meaning of the a11y tag clearer
On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 at 09:38:36 -0400, Sandro Tosi wrote: > I sympathize with your request, but please first address the rewording > the the authoritative source of tags descriptions: > https://www.debian.org/Bugs/Developer#tags Who "owns" the text on that page? Should I be talking to the BTS team, or the web team, or someone else? Thanks, smcv
Bug#1007106: reportbug: please make the meaning of the a11y tag clearer
> My understanding is that the a11y tag is intended to be for bugs that > harm Debian's usefulness for people who rely on assistive technologies > (screen readers, high contrast themes, etc.), and more generally, people > who are not well-served by typical application developer assumptions as > a result of disabilities or similar factors. The debian-accessibility > mailing list is described on https://lists.debian.org/devel.html as > "Making Debian more accessible to people with disabilities", and the > a11y tag is shown on bugs.debian.org as a wheelchair symbol emoji, > which supports that interpretation. > > However, reportbug describes the tag as: > > > 1 a11y This bug is relevant to the accessibility of the package. > > and I think a lot of non-technical users are interpreting this as "this > bug makes it hard for *me personally* to use this package" - but if > we used that interpretation, then it would apply to a lot of medium to > high severity bugs in user-facing components like desktop environments, > and the bugs that are particularly relevant to debian-accessibility > subscribers would be lost in the noise. I sympathize with your request, but please first address the rewording the the authoritative source of tags descriptions: https://www.debian.org/Bugs/Developer#tags we are downstream of it, and to avoid confusion and inconsistencies, will not change the description in reportbug until BTS will do so, but we'll be happy to update it as soon as there's a new description available on the BTS website. Thanks for understanding, -- Sandro "morph" Tosi My website: http://sandrotosi.me/ Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi Twitter: https://twitter.com/sandrotosi
Bug#1007106: reportbug: please make the meaning of the a11y tag clearer
On 3/14/22, john doe wrote: > On 3/14/2022 12:53 AM, Samuel Thibault wrote: >> Hello, >> >> Simon McVittie wrote: >>> Can anyone suggest a wording that makes the intention of the tag >>> clearer, >>> without "othering" the people who particularly need bugs with this tag >>> to >>> be fixed? I've cc'd debian-accessibility in the hope that someone on >>> that >>> list has a better idea. >> >> Thanks for the notice! >> >>> 1 a11y This bug is relevant to the accessibility of the package. >> >> Perhaps simply adding >> >> 1 a11y This bug is relevant to the accessibility of the package for >> disabled users. >> >> ? >> >> Or rephrasing to make it shorter: >> >> 1 a11y This bug affects disabled users. >> > > Or an alternative: > > 1 a11y This tag refers to peoples with disabilities > > Would be nice if native English speakers could help properly phrasing > this! :) ... affects people with disabilities. ... affects users with disabilities. It's called "person (or people) first language" where self-advocates ask to be recognized first before their disability. Dear friends in Atlanta, Georgia, and elsewhere were instrumental in helping it gain traction exactly when the following acknowledges as a date of reference: https://odr.dc.gov/page/people-first-language And I just learned something new k/t this thread. There is also "identity first language" that understandably evolved as a result: https://accessate.net/features/2519/person-first-vs-identity-first-language My takeaway is "users with disabilities" remains an accepted, respectful umbrella for all disabilities. If this was only about one specific disability, there may be an alternative that each disability has voiced is preferable to them. Of note: There are times when it's tough to fulfill "person first" fully due to the limitations of e.g. social media's occasional 280-character limitations per post. Cindy :) -- * runs with birdseed *
Bug#1007106: reportbug: please make the meaning of the a11y tag clearer
On 3/14/2022 12:53 AM, Samuel Thibault wrote: Hello, Simon McVittie wrote: For instance, the bug that prompted me to open this one is a deadlock (or something) in interacting with Pipewire's PulseAudio-compatible server, which makes the game Minetest (among others) take a long time to start and have no sound. That certainly makes it hard to access normal functionality of minetest, but it doesn't seem like a bug that needs particular attention from accessibility experts... Oops, indeed! Can anyone suggest a wording that makes the intention of the tag clearer, without "othering" the people who particularly need bugs with this tag to be fixed? I've cc'd debian-accessibility in the hope that someone on that list has a better idea. Thanks for the notice! 1 a11y This bug is relevant to the accessibility of the package. Perhaps simply adding 1 a11y This bug is relevant to the accessibility of the package for disabled users. ? Or rephrasing to make it shorter: 1 a11y This bug affects disabled users. Or an alternative: 1 a11y This tag refers to peoples with disabilities Would be nice if native English speakers could help properly phrasing this! :) -- John Doe
Bug#1007106: reportbug: please make the meaning of the a11y tag clearer
Hello, Simon McVittie wrote: > For instance, the bug that prompted me to open this one is a deadlock (or > something) in interacting with Pipewire's PulseAudio-compatible server, > which makes the game Minetest (among others) take a long time to start > and have no sound. That certainly makes it hard to access normal > functionality of minetest, but it doesn't seem like a bug that needs > particular attention from accessibility experts... Oops, indeed! > Can anyone suggest a wording that makes the intention of the tag clearer, > without "othering" the people who particularly need bugs with this tag to > be fixed? I've cc'd debian-accessibility in the hope that someone on that > list has a better idea. Thanks for the notice! > 1 a11y This bug is relevant to the accessibility of the package. Perhaps simply adding 1 a11y This bug is relevant to the accessibility of the package for disabled users. ? Or rephrasing to make it shorter: 1 a11y This bug affects disabled users. ? Samuel
Bug#1007106: reportbug: please make the meaning of the a11y tag clearer
Package: reportbug Version: 11.4.1 Severity: normal X-Debbugs-Cc: debian-accessibil...@lists.debian.org I've noticed that a lot of bug reports, particularly in packages with many non-technical users, have the a11y tag when they shouldn't, which presumably makes the tag less useful for people who are interested in a11y by harming the signal-to-noise ratio. My understanding is that the a11y tag is intended to be for bugs that harm Debian's usefulness for people who rely on assistive technologies (screen readers, high contrast themes, etc.), and more generally, people who are not well-served by typical application developer assumptions as a result of disabilities or similar factors. The debian-accessibility mailing list is described on https://lists.debian.org/devel.html as "Making Debian more accessible to people with disabilities", and the a11y tag is shown on bugs.debian.org as a wheelchair symbol emoji, which supports that interpretation. However, reportbug describes the tag as: > 1 a11y This bug is relevant to the accessibility of the package. and I think a lot of non-technical users are interpreting this as "this bug makes it hard for *me personally* to use this package" - but if we used that interpretation, then it would apply to a lot of medium to high severity bugs in user-facing components like desktop environments, and the bugs that are particularly relevant to debian-accessibility subscribers would be lost in the noise. For instance, the bug that prompted me to open this one is a deadlock (or something) in interacting with Pipewire's PulseAudio-compatible server, which makes the game Minetest (among others) take a long time to start and have no sound. That certainly makes it hard to access normal functionality of minetest, but it doesn't seem like a bug that needs particular attention from accessibility experts... Can anyone suggest a wording that makes the intention of the tag clearer, without "othering" the people who particularly need bugs with this tag to be fixed? I've cc'd debian-accessibility in the hope that someone on that list has a better idea. I don't want to use terms that will offend people (and I apologise if I have), but I also think the current description is sufficiently vague to be harming the usefulness of the a11y tag. Thanks, smcv
