Re: free choice in installer?
On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 11:15:12AM +0100, Michael Ole Olsen wrote: If there was a choice in the installer for Init system and boot loader there would be nobody complaining. People only complain when there isn't a choice and they are forced to use something new. From what research are you taking this generalisation? All non-IT experts I know (proof by counter-example) would be really happy to have no choice but rather one single option which works. You might also like to think about all those Win+OSX users who have no problem to accept what they get. I admit regarding init system I feel like them and prefer also one solution that works without any need to spend time into a decision making process (feel free to blame me about this). So please be careful to do generalised statements about people by assuming that all people are thinking like you. Kind regards Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014111906.gp13...@an3as.eu
Re: free choice in installer?
On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 12:19:06PM +0100, Andreas Tille wrote: From what research are you taking this generalisation? All non-IT experts I know (proof by counter-example) would be really happy to have no choice but rather one single option which works. You might also like Of course, but the problem is that they don’t share the same opinion about the working solution. Or we wouldn’t have different editors, window managers, desktop environments, monitoring tools, etc. to think about all those Win+OSX users who have no problem to accept what they get. I admit regarding init system I feel like them and Well, that’s the reason why I’m using Linux because I don’t accept what I get with Windows. And if you have noticed the complains about the ribbon in Office or the Win8 GUI then you’ll see that Windows users don’t always accept what they get. So please be careful to do generalised statements about people by assuming that all people are thinking like you. If you don’t want choices you can stay with Windows. There is no reason to make Linux like Windows. Shade and sweet water! Stephan -- | Stephan Seitz E-Mail: s...@fsing.rootsland.net | | Public Keys: http://fsing.rootsland.net/~stse/keys.html | smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: free choice in installer?
On 10/11/14 10:15, Michael Ole Olsen wrote: If there was a choice in the installer for Init system and boot loader there would be nobody complaining. If I had to choose an init system and a boot loader during the normal installation flow, I'd complain. Options have a cost, forcing a user to answer a question before they can continue (whether they know or care about the answer or not) has a higher cost, and I think one of the major improvements in debian-installer (and package installation in general) since I started using Debian is that it asks *fewer* questions. If you have sufficiently specialized requirements that our recommended default is unsuitable, that's a good time to look into the expert installer mode, pre-seeding, or installing with the default init/bootloader/etc. and switching afterwards. For instance, for the init side of things, I did some testing at the weekend which confirms that preseed/late_command=in-target apt-get install -y sysvinit-core does what you might expect. forced to use GUI desktop crap when they want a server (ubuntu) I wouldn't use it myself, because I prefer Debian, but http://www.ubuntu.com/download/server does exist. Installing servers with the standard installer and accidentally getting a full GUI seems to be a common mistake for new Ubuntu users, and I think Debian is right to present that choice as an option in the installer rather than an entirely separate installation image, but I can understand Ubuntu's point of view here. S -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5460a1fe.2030...@debian.org
Re: free choice in installer?
Quoting Simon McVittie (2014-11-10 12:31:10) On 10/11/14 10:15, Michael Ole Olsen wrote: If there was a choice in the installer for Init system and boot loader there would be nobody complaining. If I had to choose an init system and a boot loader during the normal installation flow, I'd complain. We have a default, so need not interrupt the normal installation flow. If we had the *option* of init system choice at install time (even if completely hidden from default UI only activated by a commandline option), I believe that would radically limit complaints. - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: free choice in installer?
Hi, Jonas Smedegaard: If we had the *option* of init system choice at install time (even if completely hidden from default UI only activated by a commandline option), I believe that would radically limit complaints. I doubt that, given the history of this discussion. :-/ In any case, we're frozen, so implementing this choice _now_ should be off the table, IMHO. -- -- Matthias Urlichs -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141110115150.gc3...@smurf.noris.de
Re: free choice in installer?
Quoting Matthias Urlichs (2014-11-10 12:51:50) Jonas Smedegaard: If we had the *option* of init system choice at install time (even if completely hidden from default UI only activated by a commandline option), I believe that would radically limit complaints. I doubt that, given the history of this discussion. :-/ In any case, we're frozen, so implementing this choice _now_ should be off the table, IMHO. During freeze only severe bugs should be fixed. You are free to consider lack of choice not a bug. In any case, I did not talk about now nor about complaints completely disappearing. I was trying to point out something constructive here. - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: free choice in installer?
On 11/10/2014 04:15 AM, Michael Ole Olsen wrote: If there was a choice in the installer for Init system and boot loader there would be nobody complaining. But here my point is to put it in perspective. Somebody isn't going to get their way on this, whether it be the system they prefer as default, or level of possibility for using something different. It doesn't matter that much. Truly, it doesn't. Jessie will still boot. We have defaults for all sorts of things. I probably grouse a little when I'm on some bare system and it has nano but not vim. Proper reaction here: *grumble* oh well. Use nano for the task at hand, apt-get install vim-tiny, and move on. People only complain when there isn't a choice and they are forced to use something new. That attitude is the enemy of progress. The history of Linux is a history of people being forced to learn something new. Or to put it a better way, of people /getting/ to learn something new because of new features. Linux has added loadable modules, we have multiarch support in Debian, we've added hardware autodetection, udev, ext[34], btrfs, LVM, parted, SATA disks... the list goes on and on. If everybody had an immediate negative reaction to change, we'd all still be using DOS. Perhaps what you mean is change without good reason. I agree that can be frustrating. I think the debate here is whether there is good reason for the change. As we have seen, reasonable people disagree. My intent with this message is not to advocate one position or the other, but to suggest that although convictions run high, it's not worth getting angry over. I.e. forced to use ext4 instead of ext3 forced to use grub instead of lilo forced to use systemX instead of systemY forced to use GUI desktop crap when they want a server (ubuntu) There is a cost to choice. Perhaps that is part of what the discussion is about: is it worth it? Here are some more examples where there is no choice in Debian: no python1.5 or python2.6 in jessie emacs24 instead of emacs22 XOrg instead of XFree86 udev and initramfs pretty much must be installed by default can't run it on a system with 16MB RAM (rex's stated hardware requirements were 4MB RAM and 40MB disk) can't install it from floppies can't run it on an 80386 CPU Some of these are, at first glance, regressions from earlier versions. There are reasons for this. One is that it takes effort to maintain lots of different options, and nobody has found it important enough to put in all that effort. Another is that certain options/requirements (systems with only 4MB RAM) are so rare these days that trying to support them would cause a lot of inconvenience and extra work for the vast majority of users or developers. For instance, initramfs and loadable kernel modules give us hardware autodection that works better than it does in Windows, and requiring a bit more than 4MB RAM is a wonderfully small price to pay in today's world for that feature. Some of the above were controversial at the time. There are also plenty of examples where there is abundant choice in Debian (architecture support, filesystem support, desktop support, editors, web browers... the list is vast.) Again, this message is not about saying what option is preferable. It is about pointing out that reasonable people can have different opinions. And, most importantly, that what happens in the end is that the project is still here, Debian still rocks, and the world moves on (or at least ought to.) John
Re: free choice in installer?
On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 12:51:50PM +0100, Matthias Urlichs wrote: Hi, Jonas Smedegaard: If we had the *option* of init system choice at install time (even if completely hidden from default UI only activated by a commandline option), I believe that would radically limit complaints. I doubt that, given the history of this discussion. :-/ In any case, we're frozen, so implementing this choice _now_ should be off the table, IMHO. Maybe adding low priority debconf may not be OK without discussion ... (If this is pre-approved fixes, still OK until the 5th of January 2015, though. https://release.debian.org/jessie/freeze_policy.html) The release note is still accepting updates as I understand. If you care, make a concise description for the pre-seed targeting this issue and file a bug report with the patch to the release note. Good luck. Osamu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141110141521.GA27425@goofy.local
Re: free choice in installer?
Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk (2014-11-10): If we had the *option* of init system choice at install time (even if completely hidden from default UI only activated by a commandline option), I believe that would radically limit complaints. We already have, Simon mentioned one way to do it. You can also chroot into /target at any moment and do whatever you like even before the first boot of the installed system. We have important bugs to fix, and feature requests to implement. This whole “init free choice” delirium is definitely not one of them. KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: free choice in installer?
On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 11:31:10AM +, Simon McVittie wrote: If you have sufficiently specialized requirements that our recommended default is unsuitable, that's a good time to look into the expert installer mode, pre-seeding, or installing with the default init/bootloader/etc. and switching afterwards. For instance, for the init side of things, I did some testing at the weekend which confirms that preseed/late_command=in-target apt-get install -y sysvinit-core does what you might expect. Well, cool! I suggest you blog about it or so, that this can get more widely cited than just as a link to an obscure thread on -devel. Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141110151205.gj14...@raptor.chemicalconnection.dyndns.org
Re: free choice in installer?
Quoting Cyril Brulebois (2014-11-10 15:57:06) Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk (2014-11-10): If we had the *option* of init system choice at install time (even if completely hidden from default UI only activated by a commandline option), I believe that would radically limit complaints. We already have, Simon mentioned one way to do it. Right, I can non-declaratively do whatever - including instruct debian-installer to install one init system _and_ another one replacing it. You can also chroot into /target at any moment and do whatever you like even before the first boot of the installed system. Right, I can do whatever whenever. We have important bugs to fix, and feature requests to implement. This whole “init free choice” delirium is definitely not one of them. Right, I forgot: Debian is not the universal operating system. Bugs about choice are not important to fix. - Jonas Clearly delirious. -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
