Re: Maintaining a Package as a Non-Software Developer
Hi, earache_curtsy...@simplelogin.com writes: > Hello Charalampos and Mechtilde, > > That sounds like a great idea, joining a team would make it easier for all of > us. > > Just for your information, when I said "sysadmin who manages dozens of Debian > servers" I meant "university student who self-hosts things as a hobby on > dozens of virtual machines" :) > > What time zones are you both in? I'm sure this will be relevant for our > communications at some point. I am in in EST. > > From, > Zach > > > > Feb 28, 2024, 10:52 AM by ooo_at_mechtilde_de_nv...@simplelogin.co: > >> Hello Charalampos, >> hello Zach, >> >> I want to be part of the team, too. >> >> I'm working on a documentation about the packaging process. >> I'm interested to improve the documentation. >> >> Regards >> >> Mechtilde >> >> >> Am 28.02.24 um 15:10 schrieb Charalampos Mitrodimas: >> >>> Hi Zack, >>> >>> On 2/28/24 07:28, earache_curtsy...@simplelogin.com wrote: >>> Hello Debian Mentors, I am a sysadmin who manages dozens of Debian servers. I also use Debian for my personal computing. I am very thankful to the Debian project and would love to give back to it somehow. I was thinking that maintaining one or more packages would be a great way to do this. I know a bit of Java and C but do not write code on a regular basis (other than bash scripts). I am asking for a sanity check on whether or not this is a good idea, or if the work of maintaining a package is only plausible for highly skilled software engineers. From, Zach >>> I'm an engineer and a Debian user, and I also maintain several servers >>> running Debian. Additionally, I'm interested in becoming a maintainer. Would >>> you be interested in forming a sort of team? I can assist with coding, >>> especially in addressing upstream bugs. >>> >>> Of course, I'm not entirely sure if this is feasible. Mentors could provide >>> us with clarification on this matter. However, if you're interested, please >>> let me know. >>> >>> Charalampos >>> >> >> -- >> Mechtilde Stehmann >> ## Debian Developer >> ## PGP encryption welcome >> ## F0E3 7F3D C87A 4998 2899 39E7 F287 7BBA 141A AD7F >> >> -- >> Mechtilde Stehmann >> >> ## Debian Developer >> ## PGP encryption welcome >> ## F0E3 7F3D C87A 4998 2899 39E7 F287 7BBA 141A AD7F >> What's the status here? Are we doing this after all? Charalampos Mitrodimas
Re: Maintaining a Package as a Non-Software Developer
Zach, Let me offer my encouragement as someone who has worked in IT for 25 years, taught myself programming about 8 years ago, started contributing to Debian as a Maintainer a couple of years ago, and recently became a Debian Developer. TL;DR If you can write a bash script you can maintain packages for Debian. In fact, I would say that writing bash script is a more useful skill set when packaging than having a knowledge of Java or C or whatever the upstream project is written in. And, particularly, I would say that having real world IT experience in maintaining production servers is probably more valuable than having coding experience (because you have a visceral feel for what types of changes are disruptive for people who are consuming the packages). I think it is important to realize that there is a steep, steep, steep, almost discouraging learning curve to figuring out how to package for Debian, which is exacerbated by the fact that there really isn’t good documentation written in such a way to be helpful for people who don’t already know how to do it (there is generally good documentation about packaging policy to remind those who already know how it works what the policies are). I say this not to discourage you but to help you anticipate what you are getting into. I spent about three months consuming documentation before I made my first contribution to Debian. I found that a whole bunch of it was outdated, incorrect, contradictory, or assumed I had knowledge of underlying principles that I was missing. I know that there are some people working to improve this, but it is a daunting task (partially because it is a moving target and partially because it is really hard to write documentation for people who aren’t already initiated to a subject). However, once you get over the learning curve and realize how amazing Debian’s build system is and the fact that it can consume almost any piece of source code on the internet and turn it into a standardized package it becomes a thing of beauty. My recommendation to you would be this: Find a package that you use that is currently maintained by an active maintainer or group but which needs some work. Then volunteer to pick off some easy bug reports or do an easy upgrade to a newer version under their guidance. From there you can iterate to more and more complicated tasks. In my case I did this with Electrum. The package had not be updated in so long that it no longer communicated with the Electrum network. The maintainer was no longer participating in Debian, but I was lucky enough that it was a team-maintained package and that Bastian Germann was a member of the team and also frequently contributes to mentors. He guided me through that initial packaging experience. I should note that Electrum is mostly written in Python, a language I had no experience with when I started and of which I still have only a little understanding (although you pick up things as you go). One recommendation I would make (that I don’t always see in Debian) is that you curate a relationship with the upstream maintainers. I have done this with the Electrum maintainers and it has been both a benefit to me and to them. Sometimes I reach out to them with a question about why they have done things a certain way and they have been invaluable in helping me to understand how the source code is structured. Sometimes I ask them if they could modify upstream to make my packaging easier, and they have been open to doing so when reasonable. In one instance they made my life a lot easier when coordinating a security fix by providing a custom patch for an older version shipping in stable. My experience is that most upstream projects would like to have their code shipped in Debian and are more than willing to be helpful to the process. And of course, mentors is always the place to ask questions. Ultimately, we want to make it as easy as possible for anyone to get involved because the more hands we have the lighter everyone’s load. Soren On Tuesday, February 27, 2024 10:28:15 PM MST earache_curtsy...@simplelogin.com wrote: > I was thinking that maintaining one or more packages would be a great way to > do this. I know a bit of Java and C but do not write code on a regular basis > (other than bash scripts). > > I am asking for a sanity check on whether or not this is a good idea, or if > the work of maintaining a package is only plausible for highly skilled > software engineers. > > From, > Zach -- Soren Stoutner so...@debian.org signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Maintaining a Package as a Non-Software Developer
Hi Zach & Mechtilde, On 2/28/24 18:42, earache_curtsy...@simplelogin.com wrote: Hello Charalampos and Mechtilde, That sounds like a great idea, joining a team would make it easier for all of us. Yes that's the motive! Just for your information, when I said "sysadmin who manages dozens of Debian servers" I meant "university student who self-hosts things as a hobby on dozens of virtual machines" :) That's how we all started I believe... What time zones are you both in? I'm sure this will be relevant for our communications at some point. I am in in EST. My timezone is EET. I believe one of our first steps is to find what kind of contributions we want to make, and pick a bug for it. A good link that I know is this [1], for checking what packages are looking for a maintainer. People from this mailing-list can also help us. Also, apologies for greeting you as Zack earlier :-) Charalampos [1]: https://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/requested_byage
Re: Maintaining a Package as a Non-Software Developer
Hello, My time zone is CET. But this shouldn't be relevant for communication esp. at weekend. Regards Mechtilde Am 28.02.24 um 17:42 schrieb earache_curtsy...@simplelogin.com: Hello Charalampos and Mechtilde, That sounds like a great idea, joining a team would make it easier for all of us. Just for your information, when I said "sysadmin who manages dozens of Debian servers" I meant "university student who self-hosts things as a hobby on dozens of virtual machines" :) What time zones are you both in? I'm sure this will be relevant for our communications at some point. I am in in EST. From, Zach Feb 28, 2024, 10:52 AM by ooo_at_mechtilde_de_nv...@simplelogin.co: Hello Charalampos, hello Zach, I want to be part of the team, too. I'm working on a documentation about the packaging process. I'm interested to improve the documentation. Regards Mechtilde Am 28.02.24 um 15:10 schrieb Charalampos Mitrodimas: Hi Zack, On 2/28/24 07:28, earache_curtsy...@simplelogin.com wrote: Hello Debian Mentors, I am a sysadmin who manages dozens of Debian servers. I also use Debian for my personal computing. I am very thankful to the Debian project and would love to give back to it somehow. I was thinking that maintaining one or more packages would be a great way to do this. I know a bit of Java and C but do not write code on a regular basis (other than bash scripts). I am asking for a sanity check on whether or not this is a good idea, or if the work of maintaining a package is only plausible for highly skilled software engineers. From, Zach I'm an engineer and a Debian user, and I also maintain several servers running Debian. Additionally, I'm interested in becoming a maintainer. Would you be interested in forming a sort of team? I can assist with coding, especially in addressing upstream bugs. Of course, I'm not entirely sure if this is feasible. Mentors could provide us with clarification on this matter. However, if you're interested, please let me know. -- Mechtilde Stehmann ## Debian Developer ## PGP encryption welcome ## F0E3 7F3D C87A 4998 2899 39E7 F287 7BBA 141A AD7F OpenPGP_signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Maintaining a Package as a Non-Software Developer
Hello Charalampos and Mechtilde, That sounds like a great idea, joining a team would make it easier for all of us. Just for your information, when I said "sysadmin who manages dozens of Debian servers" I meant "university student who self-hosts things as a hobby on dozens of virtual machines" :) What time zones are you both in? I'm sure this will be relevant for our communications at some point. I am in in EST. From, Zach Feb 28, 2024, 10:52 AM by ooo_at_mechtilde_de_nv...@simplelogin.co: > Hello Charalampos, > hello Zach, > > I want to be part of the team, too. > > I'm working on a documentation about the packaging process. > I'm interested to improve the documentation. > > Regards > > Mechtilde > > > Am 28.02.24 um 15:10 schrieb Charalampos Mitrodimas: > >> Hi Zack, >> >> On 2/28/24 07:28, earache_curtsy...@simplelogin.com wrote: >> >>> Hello Debian Mentors, >>> >>> I am a sysadmin who manages dozens of Debian servers. I also use Debian for >>> my personal computing. I am very thankful to the Debian project and would >>> love to give back to it somehow. >>> >>> I was thinking that maintaining one or more packages would be a great way >>> to do this. I know a bit of Java and C but do not write code on a regular >>> basis (other than bash scripts). >>> >>> I am asking for a sanity check on whether or not this is a good idea, or if >>> the work of maintaining a package is only plausible for highly skilled >>> software engineers. >>> >>> From, >>> Zach >>> >> I'm an engineer and a Debian user, and I also maintain several servers >> running Debian. Additionally, I'm interested in becoming a maintainer. Would >> you be interested in forming a sort of team? I can assist with coding, >> especially in addressing upstream bugs. >> >> Of course, I'm not entirely sure if this is feasible. Mentors could provide >> us with clarification on this matter. However, if you're interested, please >> let me know. >> >> Charalampos >> > > -- > Mechtilde Stehmann > ## Debian Developer > ## PGP encryption welcome > ## F0E3 7F3D C87A 4998 2899 39E7 F287 7BBA 141A AD7F > > -- > Mechtilde Stehmann > > ## Debian Developer > ## PGP encryption welcome > ## F0E3 7F3D C87A 4998 2899 39E7 F287 7BBA 141A AD7F >
Re: Maintaining a Package as a Non-Software Developer
Hello Charalampos, hello Zach, I want to be part of the team, too. I'm working on a documentation about the packaging process. I'm interested to improve the documentation. Regards Mechtilde Am 28.02.24 um 15:10 schrieb Charalampos Mitrodimas: Hi Zack, On 2/28/24 07:28, earache_curtsy...@simplelogin.com wrote: Hello Debian Mentors, I am a sysadmin who manages dozens of Debian servers. I also use Debian for my personal computing. I am very thankful to the Debian project and would love to give back to it somehow. I was thinking that maintaining one or more packages would be a great way to do this. I know a bit of Java and C but do not write code on a regular basis (other than bash scripts). I am asking for a sanity check on whether or not this is a good idea, or if the work of maintaining a package is only plausible for highly skilled software engineers. From, Zach I'm an engineer and a Debian user, and I also maintain several servers running Debian. Additionally, I'm interested in becoming a maintainer. Would you be interested in forming a sort of team? I can assist with coding, especially in addressing upstream bugs. Of course, I'm not entirely sure if this is feasible. Mentors could provide us with clarification on this matter. However, if you're interested, please let me know. Charalampos -- Mechtilde Stehmann ## Debian Developer ## PGP encryption welcome ## F0E3 7F3D C87A 4998 2899 39E7 F287 7BBA 141A AD7F -- Mechtilde Stehmann ## Debian Developer ## PGP encryption welcome ## F0E3 7F3D C87A 4998 2899 39E7 F287 7BBA 141A AD7F OpenPGP_signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Maintaining a Package as a Non-Software Developer
Hello Charalampos, hello Zach, I want to be part of the team, too. I'm working on a documentation about the packaging process. I'm interested to improve the documentation. Regards Mechtilde Am 28.02.24 um 15:10 schrieb Charalampos Mitrodimas: Hi Zack, On 2/28/24 07:28, earache_curtsy...@simplelogin.com wrote: Hello Debian Mentors, I am a sysadmin who manages dozens of Debian servers. I also use Debian for my personal computing. I am very thankful to the Debian project and would love to give back to it somehow. I was thinking that maintaining one or more packages would be a great way to do this. I know a bit of Java and C but do not write code on a regular basis (other than bash scripts). I am asking for a sanity check on whether or not this is a good idea, or if the work of maintaining a package is only plausible for highly skilled software engineers. From, Zach I'm an engineer and a Debian user, and I also maintain several servers running Debian. Additionally, I'm interested in becoming a maintainer. Would you be interested in forming a sort of team? I can assist with coding, especially in addressing upstream bugs. Of course, I'm not entirely sure if this is feasible. Mentors could provide us with clarification on this matter. However, if you're interested, please let me know. Charalampos -- Mechtilde Stehmann ## Debian Developer ## PGP encryption welcome ## F0E3 7F3D C87A 4998 2899 39E7 F287 7BBA 141A AD7F OpenPGP_signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Maintaining a Package as a Non-Software Developer
On Wed, Feb 28, 2024 at 06:28:15AM +0100, earache_curtsy...@simplelogin.com wrote: > Hello Debian Mentors, > > I am a sysadmin who manages dozens of Debian servers. I also use Debian for > my personal computing. I am very thankful to the Debian project and would > love to give back to it somehow. > > I was thinking that maintaining one or more packages would be a great way to > do this. I know a bit of Java and C but do not write code on a regular basis > (other than bash scripts). > > I am asking for a sanity check on whether or not this is a good idea, or if > the work of maintaining a package is only plausible for highly skilled > software engineers. There are many packages that don't contain code or contain some simple things. There are also many software projects that are trivial to package and maintain because they are written using all the best practices and never get serious breakages requiring the maintainer to study and fix the code. -- WBR, wRAR signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Maintaining a Package as a Non-Software Developer
Hi Zack, On 2/28/24 07:28, earache_curtsy...@simplelogin.com wrote: Hello Debian Mentors, I am a sysadmin who manages dozens of Debian servers. I also use Debian for my personal computing. I am very thankful to the Debian project and would love to give back to it somehow. I was thinking that maintaining one or more packages would be a great way to do this. I know a bit of Java and C but do not write code on a regular basis (other than bash scripts). I am asking for a sanity check on whether or not this is a good idea, or if the work of maintaining a package is only plausible for highly skilled software engineers. From, Zach I'm an engineer and a Debian user, and I also maintain several servers running Debian. Additionally, I'm interested in becoming a maintainer. Would you be interested in forming a sort of team? I can assist with coding, especially in addressing upstream bugs. Of course, I'm not entirely sure if this is feasible. Mentors could provide us with clarification on this matter. However, if you're interested, please let me know. Charalampos
Re: Maintaining a Package as a Non-Software Developer
Hi Zach, earache_curtsy...@simplelogin.com, on 2024-02-28: > I am a sysadmin who manages dozens of Debian servers. I also use Debian for > my personal computing. I am very thankful to the Debian project and would > love to give back to it somehow. > > I was thinking that maintaining one or more packages would be a great way to > do this. I know a bit of Java and C but do not write code on a regular basis > (other than bash scripts). > > I am asking for a sanity check on whether or not this is a good idea, or if > the work of maintaining a package is only plausible for highly skilled > software engineers. We welcome contributions independently of contributors background; this is important so people have complementary skill sets to prepare something as complex as an operating system: integrating programs of course, but also translation work, art themes, etc. In particular, as a packager, one deals mostly with build systems, not necessarily with upstream programming languages (although this can be useful when dealing with bug reports), and I found out my own IT background served me immensely for such work. I would thus encourage you to investigate further which packages you would like to help maintain in Debian. Have a nice day, :) -- .''`. Étienne Mollier : :' : pgp: 8f91 b227 c7d6 f2b1 948c 8236 793c f67e 8f0d 11da `. `' sent from /dev/pts/1, please excuse my verbosity `-on air: Karmakanic - Two Blocks From The Edge signature.asc Description: PGP signature
