Re: [OFFTOPIC] Plonk (wss: Meta: behavior on list)

[David Wright]

On Fri 13 Aug 2021 at 20:21:27 (-0400), Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> On 2021-08-13 6:55 p.m., songbird wrote:
> > John Hasler wrote:
> > ...
> >> No.  I was there when it came into use.  It definitely represents the
> >> sound of a small object dropping into a large tank with liquid at the
> >> bottom.  A septic tank, for example.  It was common to respond to a
> >> particularly asinine article with the one-word followup "plonk".
> > 
> >   having been reading usenet since before the great renaming
> > it was a term that i haven't used often.
> great renaming ?
> Usenet is not Usenet anymore ?

Please, STFW.

Cheers,
David.

Re: [OFFTOPIC] Plonk (wss: Meta: behavior on list)

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-13 6:55 p.m., songbird wrote:
> John Hasler wrote:
> ...
>> No.  I was there when it came into use.  It definitely represents the
>> sound of a small object dropping into a large tank with liquid at the
>> bottom.  A septic tank, for example.  It was common to respond to a
>> particularly asinine article with the one-word followup "plonk".
> 
>   having been reading usenet since before the great renaming
> it was a term that i haven't used often.
great renaming ?
Usenet is not Usenet anymore ?
> 
>   i found out years ago that i just don't have the energy any
> more to get that mad about something on-line.  the n key is
> many fewer keystrokes than *plonk*.  :)
> 
> 
>   songbird
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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[OFFTOPIC] Plonk (wss: Meta: behavior on list)

[Stefan Monnier]

to...@tuxteam.de [2021-08-13 19:11:43] wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 12:49:34PM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside 
> wrote:
> [...]
>> Plonk ?
> Greg and The Wanderer already provided a definition. Just adding
> one standard reference, the Jargon File [1] in such things. Old
> Usenet lore.
> Cheers
>
> [1] http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/P/plonk.html 

How odd.  I always assumed that it was the comic-strip style
representation of the sound of hanging up the phone abruptly.


Stefan

Re: [OFFTOPIC] Plonk (wss: Meta: behavior on list)

[John Hasler]

songbird writes:
> i found out years ago that i just don't have the energy any more to
> get that mad about something on-line.  the n key is many fewer
> keystrokes than *plonk*.  :)

When I find that I'm hitting n every time I see a certain user I
killfile them.  Saves keystrokes, reduces clutter.  It's about
boredom, not anger.

Of course, as a Gnus user I can killfile (score down, actually) subjects
and threads as well.
-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: [OFFTOPIC] Plonk (wss: Meta: behavior on list)

[songbird]

John Hasler wrote:
...
> No.  I was there when it came into use.  It definitely represents the
> sound of a small object dropping into a large tank with liquid at the
> bottom.  A septic tank, for example.  It was common to respond to a
> particularly asinine article with the one-word followup "plonk".

  having been reading usenet since before the great renaming
it was a term that i haven't used often.

  i found out years ago that i just don't have the energy any
more to get that mad about something on-line.  the n key is
many fewer keystrokes than *plonk*.  :)


  songbird

Re: [OFFTOPIC] Plonk (wss: Meta: behavior on list)

[ellanios82]

On 8/14/21 12:17 AM, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

they won't stop and will just continue to argue against themselves



  Quite, quite  : this is happening : now


.

Re: [OFFTOPIC] Plonk (wss: Meta: behavior on list)

[Weaver]

On 14-08-2021 07:37, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> On 2021-08-13 5:31 p.m., Weaver wrote:
>> On 14-08-2021 07:17, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On 2021-08-13 4:59 p.m., John Hasler wrote:
 Stefan writes:
> How odd.  I always assumed that it was the comic-strip style
> representation of the sound of hanging up the phone abruptly.

 No.  I was there when it came into use.  It definitely represents the
 sound of a small object dropping into a large tank with liquid at the
 bottom.  A septic tank, for example.  It was common to respond to a
 particularly asinine article with the one-word followup "plonk".

 I've never seen any point in telling the world (or the plonked
 individual) about the action, though.

>>> I have serious doubt against the "plonked" being able to appreciate what
>>> is happening to him. Most of the time, they won't stop and will just
>>> continue to argue against themselves. Something trying to use words from
>>> language they don't even master while trying to do so.
>>
>> This would be typical: waxing wisely on a term they were obviously not
>> familiar with, five minutes ago, when they enquired after it.
>> Cheers!
>>
> This would be typical of not understand some simple second degree use of
> words. Could it be possible that I have another word that I use for
> "plonk" ? A word that can be substituted for ? Pretty much... I call
> this being "punked", maybe it's more used orally in Ontario and Eastern
> Canada than in writing.
> 
> I don't know what you are trying to prove here, except maybe that you
> are worth being associated with the word stated earlier ?

I think you'll find mailing lists are international in nature.
Cheers!

Harry.

-- 
`Unthinking respect for authority is 
the greatest enemy of truth'.
-- Albert Einstein

Re: [OFFTOPIC] Punked was [Plonk (wss: Meta: behavior on list)]

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-13 5:31 p.m., Dan Ritter wrote:
> John Hasler wrote: 
>> Stefan writes:
>>> How odd.  I always assumed that it was the comic-strip style
>>> representation of the sound of hanging up the phone abruptly.
>>
>> No.  I was there when it came into use.  It definitely represents the
>> sound of a small object dropping into a large tank with liquid at the
>> bottom.  A septic tank, for example.  It was common to respond to a
>> particularly asinine article with the one-word followup "plonk".
>>
>> I've never seen any point in telling the world (or the plonked
>> individual) about the action, though.
> 
> Oh, no, it's not for them. If they were worth arguing with, one
> wouldn't bother plonking them - just quietly ignore them.
> 
> Plonking is a social signal to everybody else. *This person* is in
> *my opinion* not worth an argument -- consider whether you want to do
> the same.
> 
I've used the term calling them "Punk" but that's maybe something local
to Eastern Canada.

> It's never unanimous. There's a decades-long troll on
> rec.arts.sf.written who apparently has a worthwhile thing to say
> about once every two years. I find out by seeing it quoted in
> other people's messages.
> 
Decade long troll ? I'm pretty sure this is similar in this mailing list.
> -dsr-
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: [OFFTOPIC] Plonk (wss: Meta: behavior on list)

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-13 5:31 p.m., Weaver wrote:
> On 14-08-2021 07:17, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On 2021-08-13 4:59 p.m., John Hasler wrote:
>>> Stefan writes:
 How odd.  I always assumed that it was the comic-strip style
 representation of the sound of hanging up the phone abruptly.
>>>
>>> No.  I was there when it came into use.  It definitely represents the
>>> sound of a small object dropping into a large tank with liquid at the
>>> bottom.  A septic tank, for example.  It was common to respond to a
>>> particularly asinine article with the one-word followup "plonk".
>>>
>>> I've never seen any point in telling the world (or the plonked
>>> individual) about the action, though.
>>>
>> I have serious doubt against the "plonked" being able to appreciate what
>> is happening to him. Most of the time, they won't stop and will just
>> continue to argue against themselves. Something trying to use words from
>> language they don't even master while trying to do so.
> 
> This would be typical: waxing wisely on a term they were obviously not
> familiar with, five minutes ago, when they enquired after it.
> Cheers!
> 
This would be typical of not understand some simple second degree use of
words. Could it be possible that I have another word that I use for
"plonk" ? A word that can be substituted for ? Pretty much... I call
this being "punked", maybe it's more used orally in Ontario and Eastern
Canada than in writing.

I don't know what you are trying to prove here, except maybe that you
are worth being associated with the word stated earlier ?
> Harry.
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: [OFFTOPIC] Plonk (wss: Meta: behavior on list)

[Dan Ritter]

John Hasler wrote: 
> Stefan writes:
> > How odd.  I always assumed that it was the comic-strip style
> > representation of the sound of hanging up the phone abruptly.
> 
> No.  I was there when it came into use.  It definitely represents the
> sound of a small object dropping into a large tank with liquid at the
> bottom.  A septic tank, for example.  It was common to respond to a
> particularly asinine article with the one-word followup "plonk".
> 
> I've never seen any point in telling the world (or the plonked
> individual) about the action, though.

Oh, no, it's not for them. If they were worth arguing with, one
wouldn't bother plonking them - just quietly ignore them.

Plonking is a social signal to everybody else. *This person* is in
*my opinion* not worth an argument -- consider whether you want to do
the same.

It's never unanimous. There's a decades-long troll on
rec.arts.sf.written who apparently has a worthwhile thing to say
about once every two years. I find out by seeing it quoted in
other people's messages.

-dsr-

Re: [OFFTOPIC] Plonk (wss: Meta: behavior on list)

[Weaver]

On 14-08-2021 07:17, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On 2021-08-13 4:59 p.m., John Hasler wrote:
>> Stefan writes:
>>> How odd.  I always assumed that it was the comic-strip style
>>> representation of the sound of hanging up the phone abruptly.
>>
>> No.  I was there when it came into use.  It definitely represents the
>> sound of a small object dropping into a large tank with liquid at the
>> bottom.  A septic tank, for example.  It was common to respond to a
>> particularly asinine article with the one-word followup "plonk".
>>
>> I've never seen any point in telling the world (or the plonked
>> individual) about the action, though.
>>
> I have serious doubt against the "plonked" being able to appreciate what
> is happening to him. Most of the time, they won't stop and will just
> continue to argue against themselves. Something trying to use words from
> language they don't even master while trying to do so.

This would be typical: waxing wisely on a term they were obviously not
familiar with, five minutes ago, when they enquired after it.
Cheers!

Harry.

-- 
`Unthinking respect for authority is 
the greatest enemy of truth'.
-- Albert Einstein

Re: [OFFTOPIC] Plonk (wss: Meta: behavior on list)

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-13 4:59 p.m., John Hasler wrote:
> Stefan writes:
>> How odd.  I always assumed that it was the comic-strip style
>> representation of the sound of hanging up the phone abruptly.
> 
> No.  I was there when it came into use.  It definitely represents the
> sound of a small object dropping into a large tank with liquid at the
> bottom.  A septic tank, for example.  It was common to respond to a
> particularly asinine article with the one-word followup "plonk".
> 
> I've never seen any point in telling the world (or the plonked
> individual) about the action, though.
> 
I have serious doubt against the "plonked" being able to appreciate what
is happening to him. Most of the time, they won't stop and will just
continue to argue against themselves. Something trying to use words from
language they don't even master while trying to do so.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: [OFFTOPIC] Plonk (wss: Meta: behavior on list)

[John Hasler]

Stefan writes:
> How odd.  I always assumed that it was the comic-strip style
> representation of the sound of hanging up the phone abruptly.

No.  I was there when it came into use.  It definitely represents the
sound of a small object dropping into a large tank with liquid at the
bottom.  A septic tank, for example.  It was common to respond to a
particularly asinine article with the one-word followup "plonk".

I've never seen any point in telling the world (or the plonked
individual) about the action, though.
-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Meta: behavior on list

[deloptes]

Dan Ritter wrote:

> There is no way in which the gender of any participant in
> debian-users is relevant. Nor their sexuality, religion, skin
> color, national origin, or even the fact that they use other
> operating systems from time to time.

It is not about the gender but the attitude, capice?

-- 
FCD6 3719 0FFB F1BF 38EA 4727 5348 5F1F DCFE BCB0

Re: Meta: behavior on list

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-13 12:53 p.m., Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 12:49:34PM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside 
> wrote:
>> Plonk ?
> 
> In this context, it's the sound that a name makes when it lands in a
> killfile, ignore list, or whatever you call it for a given communications
> medium.
> 


Thank you all, reminding me that there's much more good than evil on
this platform.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Fri 13 Aug 2021 at 16:05:15 -, Curt wrote:

> On 2021-08-13, Nicolas George  wrote:
> >
> > I used the word "driver" in the technical sense: the piece of code in
> > the operating system (in the widest possible sense) that makes it
> > possible to use the device. In that sense a mouse requires the driver in
> 
> But here the "driver," in your sense of the word, is "in" the printing
> device, not the OS, is it not? At any rate, driverless for the purposes
> of this discussion signifies that the *client* need install no software
> or data specific to a compliant printer.

Succinct and in keeping with what the PWG (Printer Working Group) and
CUPS and cups-filters developers would understan by the term. Anyone
is free to suggest what they consider is a better one.

Ultimately, the present phrase is expressive, but it does not matter.
In Debian 11 we have freed ourselves from reliance on non-free vendor
drivers and plugins for printing and scanning. Nicolas George has
demonstrated that with the installation of his new printer.

-- 
Brian.
Wasting bits and bandwidth since 1994.
(Signature inspired by a grateful user's comment).

Re: Meta: behavior on list

[John Hasler]

>From deep in prehistory, way back when bangpaths ruled and the stain
that is Facebook had yet to spill upon the land:
(I'm not the author)

Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
the slings and arrows of outrageous bullshit,
or to take words against a sea of whinings,
and by opposing, encourage them?  To killfile, to post;
No more; and by that post to say we end
The lameness and the thousand natural followups
That idiocy is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd.  To killfile, to post;
to post: perchance to flame: ay, there's the rub;
For after that post what flames may come
When we have killfiled this mortal foil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long thread;
For who would bear the quips and scorns of posters,
The harasser's wrong, the net.cops' contumely,
The pangs of afterthoughts, the propogation delay,
The incoherent sentence and the burns
That impatient merit of the wordy take,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare screen?  who would postings read,
To grunt and snort under a weary thread,
But that the dread of postings after killfiling,
The undiscover'd comment'ry from whose bourn
No quotings return, puzzles the will
And makes us rather those kills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus curiousity does make readers of us all;
And thus the monitor's hue and resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale font of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their discussions turn awry,
And lose the game of interaction.  -- Soft you now!
The fair AltaVista!  Nymph, on thy drives
Be all my posts remember'd.



-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Meta: behavior on list

[tomas]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 12:49:34PM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

[...]
> Plonk ?

Greg and The Wanderer already provided a definition. Just adding
one standard reference, the Jargon File [1] in such things. Old
Usenet lore.

Cheers

[1] http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/P/plonk.html 

 - t


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Re: Meta: behavior on list

[The Wanderer]

On 2021-08-13 at 12:49, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

> On 2021-08-13 12:41 p.m., Dan Ritter wrote:

>> And in conclusion, plonk!
> 
> Plonk ?

The sound-effect "plonk" is the traditional onomatopoeia for the sound
of a person (or E-mail address, or whatever) hitting the bottom of one's
killfile.

(For avoidance of doubt: a "killfile" is simply a list of addresses, et
cetera, for which one wants one's E-mail client or newsreader or similar
to hide, mark read, or otherwise ignore - in the vernacular, to "kill" -
any messages which originate from that address. It doesn't, by itself,
indicate any wish of harm towards the referenced person. The act of
killfiling someone on a mailing list or in a newsgroup is analogous to
blocking someone on Twitter or similar, in that any further postings
which that person may make you will no longer see.)

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



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Re: Meta: behavior on list

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 12:49:34PM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> Plonk ?

In this context, it's the sound that a name makes when it lands in a
killfile, ignore list, or whatever you call it for a given communications
medium.

Re: Meta: behavior on list

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-13 12:41 p.m., Dan Ritter wrote:
> deloptes wrote: 
>> @Brian communication with Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside is meaningless and
>> a waste of time.
> 
> You should have stopped here.
> 
> 
>> I even had to google her, because I had the feeling I talk to a troll. I
>> think she is extreme left ... lost in gendering and so on somewhere in
>> French Canada, but I do not have any evidence for that. However the
>> information I found 
> 
> At this point, you crossed the line in my head.
> 
> There is no way in which the gender of any participant in
> debian-users is relevant. Nor their sexuality, religion, skin
> color, national origin, or even the fact that they use other
> operating systems from time to time.
> 
> There are occasionally issues that relate to where someone is
> operating a computer -- WiFi bands, hardware availability, censorship
> issues come to mind -- but none of those are relevant in the
> current discussion, so whatever your problem with Canadians,
> Québécois(e) or Francophones is, I suggest that you forget about
> it until it becomes relevant.
> 
> Finally, if someone doesn't bring up their politics on-list,
> there's no call for you to bring up their politics on-list. You
> can silently avoid helping as much as you please.
Thank you Dan.
> 
> And in conclusion, plonk!
> 
Plonk ?
> -dsr-
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Meta: behavior on list

[Dan Ritter]

deloptes wrote: 
> @Brian communication with Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside is meaningless and
> a waste of time.

You should have stopped here.


> I even had to google her, because I had the feeling I talk to a troll. I
> think she is extreme left ... lost in gendering and so on somewhere in
> French Canada, but I do not have any evidence for that. However the
> information I found 

At this point, you crossed the line in my head.

There is no way in which the gender of any participant in
debian-users is relevant. Nor their sexuality, religion, skin
color, national origin, or even the fact that they use other
operating systems from time to time.

There are occasionally issues that relate to where someone is
operating a computer -- WiFi bands, hardware availability, censorship
issues come to mind -- but none of those are relevant in the
current discussion, so whatever your problem with Canadians,
Québécois(e) or Francophones is, I suggest that you forget about
it until it becomes relevant.

Finally, if someone doesn't bring up their politics on-list,
there's no call for you to bring up their politics on-list. You
can silently avoid helping as much as you please.

And in conclusion, plonk!

-dsr-

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-13 1:08 a.m., deloptes wrote:
> Brian wrote:
> 
>> Please give a link at the Mopria website substantiating your clain that
>> a Mopria certified device should be ca[able of accepting PDF as a PDL
>> in addition to PWG raster and PCLm.
>>
>>> And all of the condition make a printer pretty much driver less.
>>>
>>> There's no link with you talking about AirPrint.
>>
>> That avoids any meaningful dialog (and is incorrect).
> 
> @Brian communication with Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside is meaningless and
> a waste of time.
> I even had to google her, because I had the feeling I talk to a troll. I
> think she is extreme left ... lost in gendering and so on somewhere in
> French Canada, but I do not have any evidence for that. However the
> information I found and her attitude here was enough for me so that I avoid
> replying to her posts. I mean she takes things personal and starts a
> discussion that never ends and brings nothing at the end - pure waste of
> time.
> However I must admit she stopped top posting and it could be she educates
> herself.
> 

@brian
This is the kind of stupidity that don't give me any will to make effort
to pull out reference that I may have.

Quite awkward saying "she takes thing personal" when the message
contains my name.

By the way, don't take this message personal.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Root location

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-13 11:47 a.m., Gunnar Gervin wrote:
> Thx to Polyna especially, for telling me that I have x86-64 machine. Do
> not yet know x86 part but 64bit it certainly is.
> In Mint 32bit i686 still. but now
> I know a little bit (!) more about this machine, how chmod is not wise
> to use, etc. Kinda fun, cos Mint lets me in again. So far.
> My Mini PC Windows 10 128GB SSD is in the customs here (been there 6
> weeks..), great. Hope I can use the screen on this for a week or two..
Earlier you said you are running a computer based on Mac ?

Wasn't the case ?

It's hard to follow this thread...

> I will surely stay in Mint, that is without root, chroot, chmod etc
> until I have a tiny clue what all this is doing with my computer. Wild
> child still, weird.
> Gunnar
> 
> On Fri, 13 Aug 2021 at 09:45, Keith Bainbridge  > wrote:
> 
> On 13/8/21 18:15, Gunnar Gervin wrote:
> > I tried to partition with rEFInd because Linux Mint 19 i386 xfce
> 32bit
> > worked with EFI. In hope to upgrade to x86-64bit. After it looked
> like
> > all good, I went out, thinking it was OK. But installation came
> back to
> > start, asking me to choose put boot in Mbr, Partition with Gparted or
> > Abort. Mbr resulted in warning. Gparted offered grub bios, took that,
> > result was root in /target
> > instead of in /dev/sda1
> > Now:
> > lsblk
> > sda1 148G  part  /
> > sda3  999M  part
> >
> > Looks okay;
> > sda1 as root
> > sda3 as swap
> >
> > Better I try boot
> > Then see what happens.
> > (Later upgrade to 64bit if I can).
> > BR,
> > Gunnar
> 
> 
> Gunnar
> 
> I suggest you stick with Mint until you get a better understanding of
> how things work.
> 
> 
> Try testing in virtual machine
> 
> -- 
> All the best
> 
> Keith Bainbridge
> 
> keith.bainbridge.3...@gmail.com 
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Root location

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-13 8:33 a.m., Henning Follmann wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 11:15:10AM +0300, Gunnar Gervin wrote:
>> I tried to partition with rEFInd because Linux Mint 19 i386 xfce 32bit
>> worked with EFI. In hope to upgrade to x86-64bit. After it looked like all
>> good, I went out, thinking it was OK. But installation came back to start,
>> asking me to choose put boot in Mbr, Partition with Gparted or Abort. Mbr
>> resulted in warning. Gparted offered grub bios, took that, result was root
>> in /target
>> instead of in /dev/sda1
>> Now:
>> lsblk
>> sda1 148G  part  /
>> sda3  999M  part
>>
>> Looks okay;
>> sda1 as root
>> sda3 as swap
>>
>> Better I try boot
>> Then see what happens.
>> (Later upgrade to 64bit if I can).
>> BR,
>> Gunnar
> 
> Hello,
> I think you are making this way too difficult for yourself.
> Maybe you are following some recipes you found through google.
> These are most likely outdated and it is much simpler today.
> I converted a number of Macs into linux machines, including
> one powerpc one. And maybe ten years ago you had to handle
> with refid, these days you just can use the installer and
> almost everything (except the driver for the wifi cards)
> just works.
> 
> Please post the actual cpu this machine has. Then we can tell you
> what to do to install debian on that machine.
> Please tell us also about the amount of memory installed.
> 
All this can probably be found in a previous thread. But I do remember
this is not the first thing the question about "What are you running
under" and that the answer seem hard to get.

If my memory is good it's a MacBook but I don't think we ever got the
CPU type or the amount of memory installed.

Looking at the size of the hard drive (which was installed by himself,
Toshiba brand) we normally get a good idea about the age of the computer
if it's the original hard drive. Not the case this time...

Maybe running hwinfo --all > hwinfo.txt and after pasting the content of
hwinfo.txt could be of some help.

> 
> -H
> 
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Curt]

On 2021-08-13, Nicolas George  wrote:
>
> I used the word "driver" in the technical sense: the piece of code in
> the operating system (in the widest possible sense) that makes it
> possible to use the device. In that sense a mouse requires the driver in

But here the "driver," in your sense of the word, is "in" the printing
device, not the OS, is it not? At any rate, driverless for the purposes
of this discussion signifies that the *client* need install no software
or data specific to a compliant printer.

Re: Root location

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-13 8:00 a.m., Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 01:53:44PM +0200, deloptes wrote:
>> Gunnar Gervin wrote:
>>
>>> (Later upgrade to 64bit if I can).
>>
>> I am not sure if you can upgrade 32 to 64bit OS. AFAIK you reinstall
> 
> This is called a "crossgrade" sometimes (a portmanteau of "cross" and
> "upgrade").  It is NOT supported.  However, some advanced people have
> done it.  There's a wiki page about it.
> 
> I've never done it.  I've never even ATTEMPTED it.  I would not
> recommend it, particularly to a novice.
> 
Seems to be quite complex, first adding x64 architecture to your system,
then dealing with the problem that some base package can only be
installed in one architecture at a time, afterward there will be the
configuration part plus kernel.

Seems to me much easier to reinstall (after user data backup) than doing
a crossgrade.
> If the OP wants to run a 64-bit OS in the end, they should install a
> 64-bit OS to begin with.
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Root location

[Gunnar Gervin]

Thx to Polyna especially, for telling me that I have x86-64 machine. Do not
yet know x86 part but 64bit it certainly is.
In Mint 32bit i686 still. but now
I know a little bit (!) more about this machine, how chmod is not wise to
use, etc. Kinda fun, cos Mint lets me in again. So far.
My Mini PC Windows 10 128GB SSD is in the customs here (been there 6
weeks..), great. Hope I can use the screen on this for a week or two..
I will surely stay in Mint, that is without root, chroot, chmod etc until I
have a tiny clue what all this is doing with my computer. Wild child still,
weird.
Gunnar

On Fri, 13 Aug 2021 at 09:45, Keith Bainbridge  wrote:

> On 13/8/21 18:15, Gunnar Gervin wrote:
> > I tried to partition with rEFInd because Linux Mint 19 i386 xfce 32bit
> > worked with EFI. In hope to upgrade to x86-64bit. After it looked like
> > all good, I went out, thinking it was OK. But installation came back to
> > start, asking me to choose put boot in Mbr, Partition with Gparted or
> > Abort. Mbr resulted in warning. Gparted offered grub bios, took that,
> > result was root in /target
> > instead of in /dev/sda1
> > Now:
> > lsblk
> > sda1 148G  part  /
> > sda3  999M  part
> >
> > Looks okay;
> > sda1 as root
> > sda3 as swap
> >
> > Better I try boot
> > Then see what happens.
> > (Later upgrade to 64bit if I can).
> > BR,
> > Gunnar
>
>
> Gunnar
>
> I suggest you stick with Mint until you get a better understanding of
> how things work.
>
>
> Try testing in virtual machine
>
> --
> All the best
>
> Keith Bainbridge
>
> keith.bainbridge.3...@gmail.com
>

Re: Root location

[Steve McIntyre]

Greg Wooledge wrote:
>On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 01:53:44PM +0200, deloptes wrote:
>> Gunnar Gervin wrote:
>> 
>> > (Later upgrade to 64bit if I can).
>> 
>> I am not sure if you can upgrade 32 to 64bit OS. AFAIK you reinstall
>
>This is called a "crossgrade" sometimes (a portmanteau of "cross" and
>"upgrade").  It is NOT supported.  However, some advanced people have
>done it.  There's a wiki page about it.
>
>I've never done it.  I've never even ATTEMPTED it.  I would not
>recommend it, particularly to a novice.
>
>If the OP wants to run a 64-bit OS in the end, they should install a
>64-bit OS to begin with.

We finally now have a cross-grading tool in Debian:

  https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/debian-crossgrader

written by Kevin Wu as a GSoC project last year. It has worked well
for me in testing!

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
"We're the technical experts.  We were hired so that management could
 ignore our recommendations and tell us how to do our jobs."  -- Mike Andrews

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Nicolas George]

Brian (12021-08-13):
> Consider a driverless car. It is not really driverless in the sense
> you espouse. Otherwise it would not be going anywhere, would it?
> From the point of view of the passengers and the Authorities there
> isn't a human driver.

Exactly. "Driverless" uses the word "driver" as the layperson
understands it: some specific piece of software you have to install in
order to get a new device to work. In that sense, a brand new video
controller requires a driver, but not a mouse, a USB storage stick or
5.1 speakers.

I used the word "driver" in the technical sense: the piece of code in
the operating system (in the widest possible sense) that makes it
possible to use the device. In that sense a mouse requires the driver in
hid-generic.ko, a USB storage stick requires the driver in
usb-storage.ko, but speakers connected with a jack or RCA plug do not
(the audio controller does, though, but it does whether there are
speakers connected or not).

So much bits wasted for a small remark I made between parentheses.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George


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Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Fri 13 Aug 2021 at 15:26:03 +0200, Nicolas George wrote:

> Brian (12021-08-13):
> > Did you read the Release Notes for Bullseye? (No advice on cat controls,
> > though :) ).
> 
> Enough to upgrade, but I do not know what it has to do with connecting a
> printer to an OpenWRT router.

There is advice on printing and scanning there.

> > Also, the printing system does not have a unified driver. The drivers
> > used depend on the job, but they will always produce an outcome that
> > is suitable to be sent to the printer, irrespective of the make or
> > model of printer. Contrast that with the pre-buster situation. The
> > need for non-free vendor drivers has been eliminated.
> 
> It is free and it is the same driver for all brands and models,
> "driverless" is still a driver, just like usb-storage is a driver.

Consider a driverless car. It is not really driverless in the sense
you espouse. Otherwise it would not be going anywhere, would it?
>From the point of view of the passengers and the Authorities there
isn't a human driver.

> > I am surprised you had to install ipp-usb. It is a Recommends: of
> > cups-daemon.
> 
> APT::Install-Recommends 0;
> 
> is one of the first dozen things I do to make a new Debian instable
> suitable for my tastes.

Fine when the user knows what he is doing but hopefully this will
not be common practice with most users.

> > Did I not recommend sane-airscan earlier in this thread?
> 
> I forgot. I will check when the printer is plugged again.

You would be doing yourself a favour.

-- 
Brian.

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Nicolas George]

Brian (12021-08-13):
> Did you read the Release Notes for Bullseye? (No advice on cat controls,
> though :) ).

Enough to upgrade, but I do not know what it has to do with connecting a
printer to an OpenWRT router.

> Also, the printing system does not have a unified driver. The drivers
> used depend on the job, but they will always produce an outcome that
> is suitable to be sent to the printer, irrespective of the make or
> model of printer. Contrast that with the pre-buster situation. The
> need for non-free vendor drivers has been eliminated.

It is free and it is the same driver for all brands and models,
"driverless" is still a driver, just like usb-storage is a driver.

> I am surprised you had to install ipp-usb. It is a Recommends: of
> cups-daemon.

APT::Install-Recommends 0;

is one of the first dozen things I do to make a new Debian instable
suitable for my tastes.

> Did I not recommend sane-airscan earlier in this thread?

I forgot. I will check when the printer is plugged again.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George


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Description: PGP signature

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Fri 13 Aug 2021 at 13:10:46 +0200, Nicolas George wrote:

> Hi.
> 
> We finally found an HP DeskJet 2723e at a closer vendor; in terms of
> price and bulk it was much closer to to or needs the one we had and the
> cat broke.
> 
> I first set it up on wifi only. I used the proprietary HP application on
> my phone, it used bluetooth to give the wifi password to the printer. I
> confirmed with the router it was connected and set up a static DHCP
> lease.

Did you read the Release Notes for Bullseye? (No advice on cat controls,
though :) ).

> After that, I could connect to the printer using
> .
> 
> Setting up printing was as easy as:
> 
> sudo lpadmin -p DeskJet_2723e -v http://10.0.1.17:631/ -E -m everywhere
> 
> (by the way, "driverless" is a nice advertisement gimmick, but really it
> is a misnomer for an unified driver) and printing a test page worked
> right away.

The developers of our printing system would be more likely to view
driverless printing to be as outlined at

  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/08/msg00548.html

Also, the printing system does not have a unified driver. The drivers
used depend on the job, but they will always produce an outcome that
is suitable to be sent to the printer, irrespective of the make or
model of printer. Contrast that with the pre-buster situation. The
need for non-free vendor drivers has been eliminated.

> I could also scan using the web interface. SANE offered a little more
> resistance tough.
> 
> But first I had to re-configure it for another wifi network. This time I
> tried doing it with USB.
> 
> Installing ipp-usb and plugging the printer starts a ipp-usb.service and

I am surprised you had to install ipp-usb. It is a Recommends: of
cups-daemon.

> a web server on  where I could change the wifi
> settings. The web-server seems extremenly bogus, I had to reload the
> page numerous times before getting something workable.
> 
> Once the printer connected to its final network, I tried SANE seriously.
> 
> To let SANE auto-detect the device, I had to:
> 
> sudo hp-setup -i 10.0.1.17
> 
> to let it create a second queue
> "hp:/net/DeskJet_2700_series?ip=10.0.1.17". But it still refused to
> work.
> 
> For some reason, scanimage sends its useful messages to syslog instead
> of stderr.
> 
> I had:
> 
> unable to load library libm.so: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libm.so: invalid ELF 
> header
> 
> (/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libm.so is a ld script, not meant for dynamic
> loading), which seems to be just random incompetence with no actual
> consequence, and:
> 
> unable to open /var/lib/hp/hplip.state: No such file or directory
> 
> and, if I tried to populate this file based on examples found on the
> web:
> 
> unable to load library /usr/share/hplip/scan/plugins/bb_escl.so: 
> /usr/share/hplip/scan/plugins/bb_escl.so: cannot open shared object file: No 
> such file or directory
> 
> As it happens, it means the libsane-hpaio requires a binary non-Libre
> plugin for this printer. It can be downloaded with:
> 
> sudo hp-plugin -g
> 
> It installs files in /usr/share/hplip/scan/plugins/.
> 
> After that:
> 
> scanimage -h -d 'hpaio:/net/DeskJet_2700_series?ip=10.0.1.17'
> 
> worked, as did actual scanning and Gimp's GUI.
> 
> I am not very satisfied with the use of a binary plugin, but at least it
> works.

Did I not recommend sane-airscan earlier in this thread? If not

  apt install sane-airscan

Non-free plugins dispensed with at a stroke. Uninstall HPLIP while
you are at it. It is completely unneeded.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Root location

[Joe]

On Fri, 13 Aug 2021 08:00:35 -0400
Greg Wooledge  wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 01:53:44PM +0200, deloptes wrote:
 
> > 
> > I am not sure if you can upgrade 32 to 64bit OS. AFAIK you
> > reinstall  
> 
> This is called a "crossgrade" sometimes (a portmanteau of "cross" and
> "upgrade").  It is NOT supported.  However, some advanced people have
> done it.  There's a wiki page about it.
> 
> I've never done it.  I've never even ATTEMPTED it.  I would not
> recommend it, particularly to a novice.
> 
> If the OP wants to run a 64-bit OS in the end, they should install a
> 64-bit OS to begin with.
> 

I had a go with the etch->lenny upgrade, but the whole thing got well
out of hand and I gave up.

-- 
Joe

Re: Root location

[Henning Follmann]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 11:15:10AM +0300, Gunnar Gervin wrote:
> I tried to partition with rEFInd because Linux Mint 19 i386 xfce 32bit
> worked with EFI. In hope to upgrade to x86-64bit. After it looked like all
> good, I went out, thinking it was OK. But installation came back to start,
> asking me to choose put boot in Mbr, Partition with Gparted or Abort. Mbr
> resulted in warning. Gparted offered grub bios, took that, result was root
> in /target
> instead of in /dev/sda1
> Now:
> lsblk
> sda1 148G  part  /
> sda3  999M  part
> 
> Looks okay;
> sda1 as root
> sda3 as swap
> 
> Better I try boot
> Then see what happens.
> (Later upgrade to 64bit if I can).
> BR,
> Gunnar

Hello,
I think you are making this way too difficult for yourself.
Maybe you are following some recipes you found through google.
These are most likely outdated and it is much simpler today.
I converted a number of Macs into linux machines, including
one powerpc one. And maybe ten years ago you had to handle
with refid, these days you just can use the installer and
almost everything (except the driver for the wifi cards)
just works.

Please post the actual cpu this machine has. Then we can tell you
what to do to install debian on that machine.
Please tell us also about the amount of memory installed.


-H


-- 
Henning Follmann   | hfollm...@itcfollmann.com

Re: OFFTOPIC Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[ellanios82]

On 8/13/21 2:48 PM, deloptes wrote:

For me it is not a problem, I simply ignore her posts



 - Quite, quite  :)


.

Re: Root location

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 01:53:44PM +0200, deloptes wrote:
> Gunnar Gervin wrote:
> 
> > (Later upgrade to 64bit if I can).
> 
> I am not sure if you can upgrade 32 to 64bit OS. AFAIK you reinstall

This is called a "crossgrade" sometimes (a portmanteau of "cross" and
"upgrade").  It is NOT supported.  However, some advanced people have
done it.  There's a wiki page about it.

I've never done it.  I've never even ATTEMPTED it.  I would not
recommend it, particularly to a novice.

If the OP wants to run a 64-bit OS in the end, they should install a
64-bit OS to begin with.

Re: Root location

[deloptes]

Gunnar Gervin wrote:

> Better I try boot
> Then see what happens.

very good idea

> (Later upgrade to 64bit if I can).

I am not sure if you can upgrade 32 to 64bit OS. AFAIK you reinstall


-- 
FCD6 3719 0FFB F1BF 38EA 4727 5348 5F1F DCFE BCB0

Re: OFFTOPIC Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[tomas]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 07:43:35AM -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:

[...]

> I don't think tomas felt he was under personal attack, but that he perceived 
> a 
> personal attack on Polyna.

Good catch, thanks :-)

Cheers
 - t


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Description: Digital signature

Re: OFFTOPIC Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[deloptes]

rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:

>> I do not insult anyone and do not attack people, please stop with this BS
>> of excuse by political correctness.
> 
> I don't think tomas felt he was under personal attack, but that he
> perceived a personal attack on Polyna

And I understood completely well.
So I hope Polyna does understand as well. I have a small issue with her
attitude taking things personally and argueing in trolling manner.
For me it is not a problem, I simply ignore her posts, but I like Brian and
his posts and sensed that he's falling for her argueing.

regards

-- 
FCD6 3719 0FFB F1BF 38EA 4727 5348 5F1F DCFE BCB0

Re: OFFTOPIC Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[rhkramer]

On Friday, August 13, 2021 02:42:55 AM deloptes wrote:
> to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > Can we please avoid personal insults?
> > 
> > Each of us has his/her difficult points. If you have issues with
> > those points, by all means, speak up. But **attacking people
> > personally** does not belong in this list.
> 
> I do not insult anyone and do not attack people, please stop with this BS
> of excuse by political correctness.

I don't think tomas felt he was under personal attack, but that he perceived a 
personal attack on Polyna.

Re: Debian Meetup in Stockholm August 2021

[Martin Schöön]

Den 2021-08-13 skrev Martin Schöön :
> Or is it obvious, like the only non-hipsters present? :-)
>
> /Martin

Sorry about the double-posting. I got an error message the first time.

/Martin

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Nicolas George]

Hi.

We finally found an HP DeskJet 2723e at a closer vendor; in terms of
price and bulk it was much closer to to or needs the one we had and the
cat broke.

I first set it up on wifi only. I used the proprietary HP application on
my phone, it used bluetooth to give the wifi password to the printer. I
confirmed with the router it was connected and set up a static DHCP
lease.

After that, I could connect to the printer using
.

Setting up printing was as easy as:

sudo lpadmin -p DeskJet_2723e -v http://10.0.1.17:631/ -E -m everywhere

(by the way, "driverless" is a nice advertisement gimmick, but really it
is a misnomer for an unified driver) and printing a test page worked
right away.

I could also scan using the web interface. SANE offered a little more
resistance tough.

But first I had to re-configure it for another wifi network. This time I
tried doing it with USB.

Installing ipp-usb and plugging the printer starts a ipp-usb.service and
a web server on  where I could change the wifi
settings. The web-server seems extremenly bogus, I had to reload the
page numerous times before getting something workable.

Once the printer connected to its final network, I tried SANE seriously.

To let SANE auto-detect the device, I had to:

sudo hp-setup -i 10.0.1.17

to let it create a second queue
"hp:/net/DeskJet_2700_series?ip=10.0.1.17". But it still refused to
work.

For some reason, scanimage sends its useful messages to syslog instead
of stderr.

I had:

unable to load library libm.so: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libm.so: invalid ELF 
header

(/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libm.so is a ld script, not meant for dynamic
loading), which seems to be just random incompetence with no actual
consequence, and:

unable to open /var/lib/hp/hplip.state: No such file or directory

and, if I tried to populate this file based on examples found on the
web:

unable to load library /usr/share/hplip/scan/plugins/bb_escl.so: 
/usr/share/hplip/scan/plugins/bb_escl.so: cannot open shared object file: No 
such file or directory

As it happens, it means the libsane-hpaio requires a binary non-Libre
plugin for this printer. It can be downloaded with:

sudo hp-plugin -g

It installs files in /usr/share/hplip/scan/plugins/.

After that:

scanimage -h -d 'hpaio:/net/DeskJet_2700_series?ip=10.0.1.17'

worked, as did actual scanning and Gimp's GUI.

I am not very satisfied with the use of a binary plugin, but at least it
works.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George


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Description: PGP signature

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Fri 13 Aug 2021 at 06:29:52 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> On 2021-08-13 6:12 a.m., Brian wrote:
> > On Thu 12 Aug 2021 at 18:56:58 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> > 
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> On 2021-08-12 6:27 p.m., Brian wrote:
> >>> On Thu 12 Aug 2021 at 15:33:26 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside 
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
>  Hi,
> 
>  On 2021-08-12 3:22 p.m., Brian wrote:
> > On Tue 10 Aug 2021 at 18:29:02 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside 
> > wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >> I'm using a Xerox B205 MFC and it's fully supported. Yes it's laser but
> >> the reason I am writing this message regard something else.
> >>
> >> It's the support of MOPRIA.
> >> Even if it's mostly made for Android, what it does is offer a discovery
> >> and printing protocol compatible with all CUPS system (will publish IP
> >> endpoint that support PostScript, PCL and PDF, all depending on the
> >> printer but at least one of them). Regarding the scanner, it will
> >> support sending by email thru the use of a SMTP server account.
> >>
> >> So I think we can say these devices will be supported by Linux (and 
> >> Debian).
> >
> > I was a bit taken aback when you advocated Mopria as a criterion for
> > determining whether a printer could be operated driverlessly on Debian.
> > But is it the *best* criterion?
> >
> > I've now got my head around it.
> >
> > Surely, it is better looking for AirPrint support in the printer specs
> > to determine the driverless capabilities of printer?
> >
> 
>  Have you looked what does Mopria is ?
> >>>
> >>> I have examined the aims and objectives of the Mopria Alliance in
> >>> excrutiating detail.
> >>>
>  It require that the printer (and scanner) offer :
>  Printing thru the use of IPP protocol
> >>>
> >>> Correct.
> >>>
>  Possibility to send the data in PDF format directly (or JPG)
>  Auto discovery of the services offered thru "Bonjour".
> >>>
> >>> Please give a link at the Mopria website substantiating your clain that
> >>> a Mopria certified device should be ca[able of accepting PDF as a PDL
> >>> in addition to PWG raster and PCLm.
> >>>
> >> Like already written in my first post regarding this issue :
> >> https://mopria.org/spec-download
> > 
> > That is a link to an HP scanning specification. Maybe I was less than
> > clear that printing and printers were the focus of my attention, not
> > scanning.
> > 
>  And all of the condition make a printer pretty much driver less.
> 
>  There's no link with you talking about AirPrint.
> >>>
> >>> That avoids any meaningful dialog (and is incorrect).
> >>
> >> Can you explain to me what does AirPrint has to do with driverless
> >> printing ? Can you explain to me if AirPrint allow my printer automatic
> >> discovery ? IPP ? JPEG/PDF direct printing ?
> > 
> > There are three criteria for a printer to be regarded as driverless.
> > 
> > 1. The transport protocol must be IPP. Apple AirPrint uses it.
> > 2. There must be a discovery protocol, mDNS/DNS-SD. Apple AirPrint uses
> >it and calls it Bonjour.
> > 3. There must be a PDL common to the client and the printer.
> > 
> > It is the third criterion in relation to Mopria that I am concerned
> > with. As you said above:
> > 
> >  > ...(will publish IP endpoint that support PostScript,
> >  > PCL and PDF,...
> > 
> > Leaving aside that PostScript and PCL are not acceptable driverless
> > PDLs, I was intrigued by the information that PDF is a common PDL
> > satisfying criterion 3 for a Mopria-certified printer. I read
> > 
> >   https://mopria.org/PDFs/Mopria_Whitepaper_092313.pdf
> > 
> > which is from 2013.
> > 
> > It says:
> > 
> >  > Page Description Languages WiFi Direct Services Print includes
> >  > PCL-m, PWG Raster
> >  > Standard Document Exchange Format JPEG, .png, PDF (future)
> > 
> > I then hoped (forlornly, it turns out) that you might know the present
> > status of PDF as a printing PDL in Mopria eight years afterwards. 
> > 
> > If you do not know, thats fine. We will leave it there.
> > 
> 
> No one force you to nothing. I've already written that the printers
> support PDF and JPEG, but this seems unreliable to you because I'm in
> gendering from French Canada (as your good friend deloptes seem to believe).

All I wanted was refernce. You seemed to be familia with Mopria so
it did not seem a bad idea to post to the list. It turns out, as
Curt posted, that a  Mopria-certified certified device wants to see
one of PWG raster, PCLm or PDF as a printer PDL. Rather strange that
an image format is not specified.

> Sorry if I don't keep a notepad and bookmark of all the information I
> collect. The simple fact the the dozen of printer I installed and dealt
> with, all being chosen on the only fact of being Mopria supported were
> offering JPEG and PDF (plus more).
> 
> Maybe I'd have more 

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-13 6:12 a.m., Brian wrote:
> On Thu 12 Aug 2021 at 18:56:58 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>>
>> On 2021-08-12 6:27 p.m., Brian wrote:
>>> On Thu 12 Aug 2021 at 15:33:26 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>>>
 Hi,

 On 2021-08-12 3:22 p.m., Brian wrote:
> On Tue 10 Aug 2021 at 18:29:02 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside 
> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> I'm using a Xerox B205 MFC and it's fully supported. Yes it's laser but
>> the reason I am writing this message regard something else.
>>
>> It's the support of MOPRIA.
>> Even if it's mostly made for Android, what it does is offer a discovery
>> and printing protocol compatible with all CUPS system (will publish IP
>> endpoint that support PostScript, PCL and PDF, all depending on the
>> printer but at least one of them). Regarding the scanner, it will
>> support sending by email thru the use of a SMTP server account.
>>
>> So I think we can say these devices will be supported by Linux (and 
>> Debian).
>
> I was a bit taken aback when you advocated Mopria as a criterion for
> determining whether a printer could be operated driverlessly on Debian.
> But is it the *best* criterion?
>
> I've now got my head around it.
>
> Surely, it is better looking for AirPrint support in the printer specs
> to determine the driverless capabilities of printer?
>

 Have you looked what does Mopria is ?
>>>
>>> I have examined the aims and objectives of the Mopria Alliance in
>>> excrutiating detail.
>>>
 It require that the printer (and scanner) offer :
 Printing thru the use of IPP protocol
>>>
>>> Correct.
>>>
 Possibility to send the data in PDF format directly (or JPG)
 Auto discovery of the services offered thru "Bonjour".
>>>
>>> Please give a link at the Mopria website substantiating your clain that
>>> a Mopria certified device should be ca[able of accepting PDF as a PDL
>>> in addition to PWG raster and PCLm.
>>>
>> Like already written in my first post regarding this issue :
>> https://mopria.org/spec-download
> 
> That is a link to an HP scanning specification. Maybe I was less than
> clear that printing and printers were the focus of my attention, not
> scanning.
> 
 And all of the condition make a printer pretty much driver less.

 There's no link with you talking about AirPrint.
>>>
>>> That avoids any meaningful dialog (and is incorrect).
>>
>> Can you explain to me what does AirPrint has to do with driverless
>> printing ? Can you explain to me if AirPrint allow my printer automatic
>> discovery ? IPP ? JPEG/PDF direct printing ?
> 
> There are three criteria for a printer to be regarded as driverless.
> 
> 1. The transport protocol must be IPP. Apple AirPrint uses it.
> 2. There must be a discovery protocol, mDNS/DNS-SD. Apple AirPrint uses
>it and calls it Bonjour.
> 3. There must be a PDL common to the client and the printer.
> 
> It is the third criterion in relation to Mopria that I am concerned
> with. As you said above:
> 
>  > ...(will publish IP endpoint that support PostScript,
>  > PCL and PDF,...
> 
> Leaving aside that PostScript and PCL are not acceptable driverless
> PDLs, I was intrigued by the information that PDF is a common PDL
> satisfying criterion 3 for a Mopria-certified printer. I read
> 
>   https://mopria.org/PDFs/Mopria_Whitepaper_092313.pdf
> 
> which is from 2013.
> 
> It says:
> 
>  > Page Description Languages WiFi Direct Services Print includes
>  > PCL-m, PWG Raster
>  > Standard Document Exchange Format JPEG, .png, PDF (future)
> 
> I then hoped (forlornly, it turns out) that you might know the present
> status of PDF as a printing PDL in Mopria eight years afterwards. 
> 
> If you do not know, thats fine. We will leave it there.
> 

No one force you to nothing. I've already written that the printers
support PDF and JPEG, but this seems unreliable to you because I'm in
gendering from French Canada (as your good friend deloptes seem to believe).

Sorry if I don't keep a notepad and bookmark of all the information I
collect. The simple fact the the dozen of printer I installed and dealt
with, all being chosen on the only fact of being Mopria supported were
offering JPEG and PDF (plus more).

Maybe I'd have more interest in doing some research to help you out, as
you seem to need some hard proof regarding Mopria. But the interest in
doing so go pretty low when I consider the type of rudeness and lack of
respect you show in your messages.

Hope you got all you needed as information.

Good luck.
-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Fri 13 Aug 2021 at 09:10:06 -, Curt wrote:

> On 2021-08-12, Brian  wrote:
> >
> >> Possibility to send the data in PDF format directly (or JPG)
> >> Auto discovery of the services offered thru "Bonjour".
> >
> > Please give a link at the Mopria website substantiating your clain that
> > a Mopria certified device should be ca[able of accepting PDF as a PDL
> > in addition to PWG raster and PCLm.
> >
> 
> 
>  The Page Description Languages (PDLs) currently supported by Mopria
>  Alliance include: PDF (from Adobe), PCL-m (from the Wi-Fi Alliance) and
>  PWG Raster (from the Printer Working Group standards body). Printer
>  manufacturers must support one of these PDLs to be compliant with the
>  current Mopria Alliance standard.
> 
> https://app.mopria.org/developer-faqs

Thank you, Curt. The web page source indicates 2018 as a possible date
of publication. This is more up-to-date than

 https://mopria.org/PDFs/Mopria_Whitepaper_092313.pdf

-- 
Brian. 

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Thu 12 Aug 2021 at 18:56:58 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> On 2021-08-12 6:27 p.m., Brian wrote:
> > On Thu 12 Aug 2021 at 15:33:26 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> > 
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> On 2021-08-12 3:22 p.m., Brian wrote:
> >>> On Tue 10 Aug 2021 at 18:29:02 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside 
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> [...]
> >>>
>  I'm using a Xerox B205 MFC and it's fully supported. Yes it's laser but
>  the reason I am writing this message regard something else.
> 
>  It's the support of MOPRIA.
>  Even if it's mostly made for Android, what it does is offer a discovery
>  and printing protocol compatible with all CUPS system (will publish IP
>  endpoint that support PostScript, PCL and PDF, all depending on the
>  printer but at least one of them). Regarding the scanner, it will
>  support sending by email thru the use of a SMTP server account.
> 
>  So I think we can say these devices will be supported by Linux (and 
>  Debian).
> >>>
> >>> I was a bit taken aback when you advocated Mopria as a criterion for
> >>> determining whether a printer could be operated driverlessly on Debian.
> >>> But is it the *best* criterion?
> >>>
> >>> I've now got my head around it.
> >>>
> >>> Surely, it is better looking for AirPrint support in the printer specs
> >>> to determine the driverless capabilities of printer?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Have you looked what does Mopria is ?
> > 
> > I have examined the aims and objectives of the Mopria Alliance in
> > excrutiating detail.
> > 
> >> It require that the printer (and scanner) offer :
> >> Printing thru the use of IPP protocol
> > 
> > Correct.
> > 
> >> Possibility to send the data in PDF format directly (or JPG)
> >> Auto discovery of the services offered thru "Bonjour".
> > 
> > Please give a link at the Mopria website substantiating your clain that
> > a Mopria certified device should be ca[able of accepting PDF as a PDL
> > in addition to PWG raster and PCLm.
> > 
> Like already written in my first post regarding this issue :
> https://mopria.org/spec-download

That is a link to an HP scanning specification. Maybe I was less than
clear that printing and printers were the focus of my attention, not
scanning.

> >> And all of the condition make a printer pretty much driver less.
> >>
> >> There's no link with you talking about AirPrint.
> > 
> > That avoids any meaningful dialog (and is incorrect).
> 
> Can you explain to me what does AirPrint has to do with driverless
> printing ? Can you explain to me if AirPrint allow my printer automatic
> discovery ? IPP ? JPEG/PDF direct printing ?

There are three criteria for a printer to be regarded as driverless.

1. The transport protocol must be IPP. Apple AirPrint uses it.
2. There must be a discovery protocol, mDNS/DNS-SD. Apple AirPrint uses
   it and calls it Bonjour.
3. There must be a PDL common to the client and the printer.

It is the third criterion in relation to Mopria that I am concerned
with. As you said above:

 > ...(will publish IP endpoint that support PostScript,
 > PCL and PDF,...

Leaving aside that PostScript and PCL are not acceptable driverless
PDLs, I was intrigued by the information that PDF is a common PDL
satisfying criterion 3 for a Mopria-certified printer. I read

  https://mopria.org/PDFs/Mopria_Whitepaper_092313.pdf

which is from 2013.

It says:

 > Page Description Languages WiFi Direct Services Print includes
 > PCL-m, PWG Raster
 > Standard Document Exchange Format JPEG, .png, PDF (future)

I then hoped (forlornly, it turns out) that you might know the present
status of PDF as a printing PDL in Mopria eight years afterwards. 

If you do not know, thats fine. We will leave it there.

-- 
Brian.

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Curt]

On 2021-08-12, Brian  wrote:
>
>> Possibility to send the data in PDF format directly (or JPG)
>> Auto discovery of the services offered thru "Bonjour".
>
> Please give a link at the Mopria website substantiating your clain that
> a Mopria certified device should be ca[able of accepting PDF as a PDL
> in addition to PWG raster and PCLm.
>


 The Page Description Languages (PDLs) currently supported by Mopria
 Alliance include: PDF (from Adobe), PCL-m (from the Wi-Fi Alliance) and
 PWG Raster (from the Printer Working Group standards body). Printer
 manufacturers must support one of these PDLs to be compliant with the
 current Mopria Alliance standard.

https://app.mopria.org/developer-faqs

Root location

[Gunnar Gervin]

I tried to partition with rEFInd because Linux Mint 19 i386 xfce 32bit
worked with EFI. In hope to upgrade to x86-64bit. After it looked like all
good, I went out, thinking it was OK. But installation came back to start,
asking me to choose put boot in Mbr, Partition with Gparted or Abort. Mbr
resulted in warning. Gparted offered grub bios, took that, result was root
in /target
instead of in /dev/sda1
Now:
lsblk
sda1 148G  part  /
sda3  999M  part

Looks okay;
sda1 as root
sda3 as swap

Better I try boot
Then see what happens.
(Later upgrade to 64bit if I can).
BR,
Gunnar

Re: Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[tomas]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 09:03:11AM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> deloptes wrote:
> > >  I think she is extreme left ...
> 
> Would be no surprise with our little commie operating system.

This list wouldn't be the same without your humour.

(and of course without your deep knowledge you share so
willingly)

> Have a nice day :)

I always have, after a post from you :)

I wish you the same.

Cheers
 - t


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Description: Digital signature

Re: Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

deloptes wrote:
> >  I think she is extreme left ...

Would be no surprise with our little commie operating system.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: OFFTOPIC Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[deloptes]

to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> I strongly disagree.
> 

me too

-- 
FCD6 3719 0FFB F1BF 38EA 4727 5348 5F1F DCFE BCB0

Re: Debian Meetup in Stockholm August 2021

[Martin Schöön]

Den 2021-08-12 skrev Luna Jernberg :
> --1218a305c95711a8
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Hi!
>
> i will show up myself on Saturday and Sunday this week
>
> On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 8:56 PM Luna Jernberg  wrote:
>
>> Hey!
>>
>> Me and @Helio Loureiro  decided we will have
>> some IRL Debian Meetups 14-16th August 16:00-19:00 Swedish time at 
>> Mosebacketerrassen
>> in Slussen, Stockholm, Sweden
>>
>> To celebrate the Debian 11 release and the 28th Debian Birthday
>> everyone that has time is welcome to swing by
>>
Is there a way to recognise the Debian crowd if one shows up?
Or is it obvious, like the only non-hipsters present? :-)

/Martin

Re: Debian Meetup in Stockholm August 2021

[Martin Schöön]

Den 2021-08-12 skrev Luna Jernberg :
> --1218a305c95711a8
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Hi!
>
> i will show up myself on Saturday and Sunday this week
>
> On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 8:56 PM Luna Jernberg  wrote:
>
>> Hey!
>>
>> Me and @Helio Loureiro  decided we will have
>> some IRL Debian Meetups 14-16th August 16:00-19:00 Swedish time at
>> Mosebacketerrassen
>> in Slussen, Stockholm, Sweden
>>
>> To celebrate the Debian 11 release and the 28th Debian Birthday
>> everyone that has time is welcome to swing by
>>
Is there a way to recognise the Debian crowd if one shows up?

/Martin

Re: OFFTOPIC Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[tomas]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 08:42:55AM +0200, deloptes wrote:
> to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
> > Can we please avoid personal insults?

> I do not insult anyone and do not attack people [...]

I strongly disagree.

Rest taken off-list.


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Description: Digital signature

OFFTOPIC Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[deloptes]

to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> Can we please avoid personal insults?
> 
> Each of us has his/her difficult points. If you have issues with
> those points, by all means, speak up. But **attacking people
> personally** does not belong in this list.

I do not insult anyone and do not attack people, please stop with this BS of
excuse by political correctness. 

I have also the right to feel insulted by her attitude, but do not make so
much noise as you do  aaah and now you tell me you are under personal
attack... never ending game - just forget it.

with respect as I usually do respect your contributions to the ML, when it
goes technical.

-- 
FCD6 3719 0FFB F1BF 38EA 4727 5348 5F1F DCFE BCB0

Re: Root in /target : how change it?

[tomas]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 05:29:42AM +0300, Gunnar Gervin wrote:
> Hi again.
> How use chroot (in terminal) to place Root in /dev/sda1(147gb)
> (if that is the better place for it)?
> My impression of root in /target is that it isn't easy to find for PC. (Why
> the installation system "commits suicide" this way so often must be a
> 'square mind'?)

I don't understand what your question is. Or even /if/ you have any
question at all.

Let me try: if your question is "why, during install, the root of
the system being installed is mounted under /target?" the answer
would be that the installer is running under an operating system
(it's easier that way), and this one has already a root, so that
place is already occupied :-)

Once install is done, /target becomes the new root.

> A dysfunctional soldier, saying: 'If u don't give countable orders, I'll
> translate them to "Dig a hole & stay in it until I maybe save u."
> Why you accepted this 35 years?

Operating systems are not humans (much less soldiers). I have no
clue what you want to convey with this metaphor. If you try to help
me, I'll try again.

Cheers
 - t


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Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[tomas]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 07:08:06AM +0200, deloptes wrote:
> Brian wrote:
> 
> > Please give a link at the Mopria website substantiating your clain that
> > a Mopria certified device should be ca[able of accepting PDF as a PDL
> > in addition to PWG raster and PCLm.
> > 
> >> And all of the condition make a printer pretty much driver less.
> >> 
> >> There's no link with you talking about AirPrint.
> > 
> > That avoids any meaningful dialog (and is incorrect).
> 
> @Brian communication with Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside is meaningless and
> a waste of time.

Can we please avoid personal insults?

Each of us has his/her difficult points. If you have issues with
those points, by all means, speak up. But **attacking people
personally** does not belong in this list.

Cheers
 - tomás


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