Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

[Roy J. Tellason, Sr.]

On Friday 09 February 2024 04:41:37 pm hw wrote:
> On Fri, 2024-02-09 at 11:34 -0500, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
> > On Friday 09 February 2024 06:07:16 am hw wrote:
> > > What other manufacturers could we buy UPSs from?
> >  
> > I have a Tripp-Lite sitting next to me here that replaced an APC and
> > has 2-1/2 times the capabiliity.  Been in service several weeks and
> > so far I'm pretty happy with it...
> 
> They seem to be extremely rare here.  

Where's "here"?  I ordered mine from Home Depot,  online.  The wait until it 
arrived didn't seem excessive.

> Are they any good, and how's the battery availability?

It seems okay,  and I haven't checked on the battery availability,  no need at 
this point and if I did it'd probably change by the time I needed them anyhow. 



-- 
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James 
M Dakin

Re: Home UPS recommendations

[David Wright]

On Fri 09 Feb 2024 at 22:28:28 (-0500), Felix Miata wrote:
> When you live on a power grid, extended outages are much less common than 
> when on
> or near waterfront or political boundaries. Most of Florida's population has 
> no
> out-of-state neighbors to share utilities with, making its grid more fragile.
> Being the lightning capital of the world doesn't help either.

Of the US, sure. But I don't think FL can compete with Maracaibo.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Home UPS recommendations

[hw]

On Sat, 2024-02-10 at 18:40 +, Joe wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Feb 2024 16:45:29 +0100
> hw  wrote:
> 
> 
> > 
> > The cheap APC models seem to produce a lot more heat, and their
> > batteries don't seem to last as long.  They work and they're not
> > really a good deal.  I don't have test equipment for UPCs, but you can
> > feel how warm they get and see how cheaply they're built without
> > special equipment.
> > 
> 
> It's quite surprising how many complaints about swollen UPS batteries
> there are around the Net. Given the fairly light duties of the batteries
> almost all of the time, this is pretty well certain to be caused by
> overheating due to incompetent charging. Batteries, particularly
> lead-acid types, are not exactly new technology, and the correct
> charging of them is well understood.
> 

The batteries in the cheap ones were not swollen.  They're just no fun
to replace.

Perhaps they use cheaper components that are less efficient and thus
create more heat.  That doesn't necessarily affect the batteries.

Re: Home UPS recommendations

[gene heskett]

On 2/10/24 13:40, Joe wrote:

On Sat, 10 Feb 2024 16:45:29 +0100
hw  wrote:




The cheap APC models seem to produce a lot more heat, and their
batteries don't seem to last as long.  They work and they're not
really a good deal.  I don't have test equipment for UPCs, but you can
feel how warm they get and see how cheaply they're built without
special equipment.



It's quite surprising how many complaints about swollen UPS batteries
there are around the Net. Given the fairly light duties of the batteries
almost all of the time, this is pretty well certain to be caused by
overheating due to incompetent charging. Batteries, particularly
lead-acid types, are not exactly new technology, and the correct
charging of them is well understood.

You have an excellent view of the problem.  One of the problems with PBa 
batteries is the each one of the gender has a mind of its own, and If 
you don't fiddle with the charging circuit, you will never find the 
optimum voltage to charge that battery to.  One of the things you never 
ever want to is look into a liquid acid battery and see it bubbling. 
That indicates and overcharge, the bubbling is the disassociated 
hydrogen and oxygen of the water component of the acid, which makes the 
water go away, leaving eve stronger acid..  Two instances I can regale 
you with.


1. shortly after I became the resident engineer at KXNE in NE Nebraska 
in '69, the two big truck batteries that started the 150 kw Cummins 
standby power failed, basically burned up from over charge. Replacing 
the batteries, they boiled like crazy.  So I turn down the curent from a 
charger with a higher resistor, because it was banging over 2 amps into 
the 2 of then to get the 24 the starter needed but that was holding 
those up to around 29 volts. The next day I raised the resistor about 4x 
as they were still boiling. Wash, rinse, repeat till the trickle charge 
was down to around .005 amps.  This was all it took for a trickle charge 
for a pair of 225ah large car batteries kept clean. 8 years later I'm 
bored out of my skull and had an offer to be the Chief at a station in 
NM, offering a 175% raise so I took it. Those batteries were then 8 
years old, and still were trying to turn that 335 Cummins wrong side out 
starting it. When the weekly 15 minute exercise came up you heard the 
bendix slam into the flywheel, followed milliseconds later by the first 
bark, and 1 measly second later the lights were back on


2. While in Nebraska, it can get pretty cold, like -35F once in a while. 
I had put an ambulance alternator in my daily driver, and made a 
switching regulator for the voltage regulator but in series with the 
voltage reference zener diode, I added 4 common si rectifier diodes to 
use their negative temp effects to turn it up or down according to the 
underhood temps.  15 seconds after a -25F start, it had the battery back 
up to about 16 volts, but 20 minutes and 20 miles later it was down to 
abound 12.7 volts, and on a 105F day down to around 12.3 volts.  That 
battery was then about 7 years old, still had its original water in it, 
spun the engine faster than it idled, when the missus threw a rod. The 
only thing I didn't get a chance to salvage was that alternator, the 
missus sold it to a junk yard the next day before I had a chance to pull 
it off.


Getting to know the battery and how to treat it could bankrupt all the 
replacement battery makers. The acid SG is important, reject any battery 
whose label says SG is 1.280. buy the one that says 1.260, It will be a 
fraction of a volt lower, but treated right will actually live years 
longer. Modern gel cell's are even more quickly destroyed by over charging.


Your trivia factoid for the day, from somebody who understands the 
chemistry.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Home UPS recommendations

[hw]

On Sat, 2024-02-10 at 08:57 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:
> hw composed on 2024-02-10 11:01 (UTC+0100):
> 
> > On Fri, 2024-02-09 at 22:28 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:
> 
> > > Those from the above URL are the same spec batteries used in many APC 
> > > models.
> 
> > Maybe, maybe not.  I couldn't get replacement batteries for the UPS
> > from HP not only because HP was so ridiculous as to tell me that I
> > could pay for a support ticket to get a price for the batteries, but
> > also because the replacement batteries I could get had smaller
> > contacts.
> 
> Contact size is part of an SLA battery's specs. Small contacts are
> terminal type "F1". I've never encountered a UPS that uses them. All
> I've encountered use terminal type "F2", which is 1/4" or about
> 6.35mm wide spade.

I don't remember how wide the contacts are the UPS from HP uses.
6.35mm is probably a common size, same as yellow connectors use.
There are connectors of the same type that are wider than that.

> > At least you have some cooling.  Basically nobody here has that,
> > though it's probably becoming more widespread because it gets warmer
> > all the time, and it's unbearable in the summer.  Electricity is
> > insanely expensive here and keeps getting more expensive all the time.
> 
> It's a big planet. Where is your "here"?

Germany

> > Hm, if the OEM batteries actually lasted 5 years and if what you say
> > is true, they must have been some awesome batteries.  That UPS takes
> > two batteries which are tightly packed, and they can get very warm.
> 
> OEM batteries must hold up through warranties, so are probably more
> locally sourced for high quality rather than low cost from
> China. Less expensive UPS models might be designed for a shorter
> expected lifetime, overcharging more as they get older and heat
> takes its toll. It's not something very many consumers are equipped
> to test.

The cheap APC models seem to produce a lot more heat, and their
batteries don't seem to last as long.  They work and they're not
really a good deal.  I don't have test equipment for UPCs, but you can
feel how warm they get and see how cheaply they're built without
special equipment.

Re: Home UPS recommendations

[Felix Miata]

hw composed on 2024-02-10 11:01 (UTC+0100):

> On Fri, 2024-02-09 at 22:28 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:

>> Those from the above URL are the same spec batteries used in many APC models.

> Maybe, maybe not.  I couldn't get replacement batteries for the UPS
> from HP not only because HP was so ridiculous as to tell me that I
> could pay for a support ticket to get a price for the batteries, but
> also because the replacement batteries I could get had smaller
> contacts.

Contact size is part of an SLA battery's specs. Small contacts are terminal type
"F1". I've never encountered a UPS that uses them. All I've encountered use
terminal type "F2", which is 1/4" or about 6.35mm wide spade.

> At least you have some cooling.  Basically nobody here has that,
> though it's probably becoming more widespread because it gets warmer
> all the time, and it's unbearable in the summer.  Electricity is
> insanely expensive here and keeps getting more expensive all the time.

It's a big planet. Where is your "here"?

> Hm, if the OEM batteries actually lasted 5 years and if what you say
> is true, they must have been some awesome batteries.  That UPS takes
> two batteries which are tightly packed, and they can get very warm.

OEM batteries must hold up through warranties, so are probably more locally
sourced for high quality rather than low cost from China. Less expensive UPS
models might be designed for a shorter expected lifetime, overcharging more as
they get older and heat takes its toll. It's not something very many consumers 
are
equipped to test.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
based on faith, not based on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata

Re: Home UPS recommendations

[hw]

On Fri, 2024-02-09 at 22:28 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:
> hw composed on 2024-02-10 03:18 (UTC+0100):
> [...]
> > Well, having batteries shipped over from the US would probably cost
> > more than a new UPS.
> 
> They are made in China. Surely there are UK sellers.

It might be cheaper to ship them from China than from the UK.
Apparently there's some kind of agreement in place that makes shipping
stuff from China (or Hong Kong) cheap --- but I don't know if it
applies to UPS batteries.

> The URL was simply provided
> as a representative of specifications of a very common SLA battery for UPS 
> type.
> 
> > That rules out Liebert, Cyperpower and Triplite due to uncertain or no
> > availability.  That only leaves Eaton.
> 
> Those from the above URL are the same spec batteries used in many APC models.

Maybe, maybe not.  I couldn't get replacement batteries for the UPS
from HP not only because HP was so ridiculous as to tell me that I
could pay for a support ticket to get a price for the batteries, but
also because the replacement batteries I could get had smaller
contacts.  Since I didn't want to take the risk of burning down the
place because the smaller contacts might have melted under load, I
decided to get a new UPS.

It wasn't too bad because I had only payed 65 for the UPS, and the
batteries lasted about 3 years.  I hate having to trash a perfectly
good UPS just because the batteries aren't available, and shame on HP
for being so environmentally friendly as to make and sell one-way
UPSs.  That kind of thing should be illegal.

But it was a lesson about battery availability.

> > Does Eaton provide their own Linux software and/or do they accept
> > monitoring results from other software like nut (assuming that apcupsd
> > won't work for Eaton UPSs)?
> 
> Mine are all connected to a multitude of devices more to protect the
> hardware from a lousy power source. I don't try to use the
> software. When power fails, I shut things down when the outage lasts
> more than a few seconds.

Well, I need the UPSs monitored so the computer(s) can shutdown
properly.

> When you live on a power grid, extended outages are much less common
> than when on or near waterfront or political boundaries. Most of
> Florida's population has no out-of-state neighbors to share
> utilities with, making its grid more fragile. Being the lightning
> capital of the world doesn't help either.

Did they put the power lines into the ground water or something like
that?

> > > Here in FL, replacement battery life averages under 30 months, no
> > > matter the battery brand. OEM batteries have averaged more like 54.
> 
> > How is that?  Do you have frequent power outages that stress the
> > batteries so much?
> The nature of the beasts is that their use generates heat. These batteries 
> don't
> like heat. The cooler they can be kept, the longer they can last. My 
> thermostat
> temp setting in heating season is 78F, in cooling season 82F, and cooling 
> season
> is much longer than heating season. In climates where heating season is most 
> of
> the year and tstat is kept below 65F, I'm guessing likely they could last a 
> decade
> or more.

At least you have some cooling.  Basically nobody here has that,
though it's probably becoming more widespread because it gets warmer
all the time, and it's unbearable in the summer.  Electricity is
insanely expensive here and keeps getting more expensive all the time.

> Battery orientation within the unit probably makes a difference, and
> even more, separation, with worst orientation side-by-side with no
> air space between. It's not easy to learn about such specs prior to
> purchase. UPS makers seem to want to keep battery specs top secret,
> out of marketing materials, even from manuals.

Hm, if the OEM batteries actually lasted 5 years and if what you say
is true, they must have been some awesome batteries.  That UPS takes
two batteries which are tightly packed, and they can get very warm.

Re: Home UPS recommendations

[Felix Miata]

hw composed on 2024-02-10 03:18 (UTC+0100):

> On Fri, 2024-02-09 at 18:51 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:

>> hw composed on 2024-02-09 22:45 (UTC+0100):
>> [...]
>>> Hm, Powercom doesn't seem to exist here, but Eaton seems to have good
>>> prices.  How's the battery availability with Eaton?

>> 
>> has the very common physical attributes used by all my Eaton, Tripp-Lite and
>> Powercom UPSes.

> Well, having batteries shipped over from the US would probably cost
> more than a new UPS.

They are made in China. Surely there are UK sellers. The URL was simply provided
as a representative of specifications of a very common SLA battery for UPS type.

> That rules out Liebert, Cyperpower and Triplite due to uncertain or no
> availability.  That only leaves Eaton.

Those from the above URL are the same spec batteries used in many APC models.

> Does Eaton provide their own Linux software and/or do they accept
> monitoring results from other software like nut (assuming that apcupsd
> won't work for Eaton UPSs)?

Mine are all connected to a multitude of devices more to protect the hardware 
from
a lousy power source. I don't try to use the software. When power fails, I shut
things down when the outage lasts more than a few seconds.

When you live on a power grid, extended outages are much less common than when 
on
or near waterfront or political boundaries. Most of Florida's population has no
out-of-state neighbors to share utilities with, making its grid more fragile.
Being the lightning capital of the world doesn't help either.

>> Here in FL, replacement battery life averages under 30 months, no
>> matter the battery brand. OEM batteries have averaged more like 54.

> How is that?  Do you have frequent power outages that stress the
> batteries so much?
The nature of the beasts is that their use generates heat. These batteries don't
like heat. The cooler they can be kept, the longer they can last. My thermostat
temp setting in heating season is 78F, in cooling season 82F, and cooling season
is much longer than heating season. In climates where heating season is most of
the year and tstat is kept below 65F, I'm guessing likely they could last a 
decade
or more.

Battery orientation within the unit probably makes a difference, and even more,
separation, with worst orientation side-by-side with no air space between. It's
not easy to learn about such specs prior to purchase. UPS makers seem to want to
keep battery specs top secret, out of marketing materials, even from manuals.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
based on faith, not based on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata

Re: Home UPS recommendations

[hw]

On Fri, 2024-02-09 at 18:51 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:
> hw composed on 2024-02-09 22:45 (UTC+0100):
> [...]
> > Hm, Powercom doesn't seem to exist here, but Eaton seems to have good
> > prices.  How's the battery availability with Eaton?
> 
> 
> has the very common physical attributes used by all my Eaton, Tripp-Lite and
> Powercom UPSes.

Well, having batteries shipped over from the US would probably cost
more than a new UPS.  And the question is not so much if I can get the
batteries now but more if I can get them at reasonable prices in 20 or
30 years or later and every time in between when I need them.

That rules out Liebert, Cyperpower and Triplite due to uncertain or no
availability.  That only leaves Eaton.

Does Eaton provide their own Linux software and/or do they accept
monitoring results from other software like nut (assuming that apcupsd
won't work for Eaton UPSs)?

When I buy an UPS used so that there aren't any relevant warranty
issues APC might produce, am I not still better off buying APC because
the batteries are likely to be available?  Also, Eaton is very hard to
come by used while APC is very common here.

> Here in FL, replacement battery life averages under 30 months, no
> matter the battery brand. OEM batteries have averaged more like 54.

How is that?  Do you have frequent power outages that stress the
batteries so much?

54 months?  I'm getting confused now because I'm sure I replaced the
batteries in my 10-year-old APC UPS three times now, two times with
OEM batteries and last time --- recently --- with aftermarket ones
because they doubled the price for the OEM ones.  That would mean 5
years for the OEM batteries each --- and not 3 years like I said
before.

So 54 months could be right.  Now I'm curious to see how long the
aftermarket ones will last.

Re: Home UPS recommendations

[Felix Miata]

Stefan Monnier composed on 2024-02-09 12:18 (UTC-0500):

>>> What other manufacturers could we buy UPSs from?

>> I have a Tripp-Lite sitting next to me here that replaced an APC and has
>> 2-1/2 times the capabiliity.  Been in service several weeks and so far I'm
>> pretty happy with it...

> Would they accept a warranty claim without having to run some
> proprietary software (diagnostic and/or OS)?

Do any of them require they be used only by computer owners? If you use one for
Linux and have an issue you expect would be covered by warranty, you might
consider withholding your application. Some people use them for home 
entertainment
centers and other electronic equipment that doesn't require Windows or MacOS. 
Just
make sure they don't hear you connected any fan, heater or other electric motor
bigger than the tiny ones propelling computer cooling fans.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
based on faith, not based on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata

Re: Home UPS recommendations

[Felix Miata]

hw composed on 2024-02-09 22:45 (UTC+0100):

> On Fri, 2024-02-09 at 12:10 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:

>> hw composed on 2024-02-09 12:07 (UTC+0100):

>> > What other manufacturers could we buy UPSs from?

>> I bought my first APC just last year, because it was what I found on the 
>> shelf in
>> WalMart, only 450VA, with "Best-in-class Service and Support", more to 
>> protect
>> bedroom TV and recorder against anomalies than power outage here in the 
>> world's
>> lightning capital. All my larger ones that are currently in service are 
>> Eaton or
>> Tripp-Lite. My spare is a Powercom with steel frame and cover, hard to 
>> extract
>> swollen old batteries from.

> Hm, Powercom doesn't seem to exist here, but Eaton seems to have good
> prices.  How's the battery availability with Eaton?


has the very common physical attributes used by all my Eaton, Tripp-Lite and
Powercom UPSes. The Powercom 2200VA uses 4, shipped with (I think) the 7.5AH
variety. The other 3 use pairs. My 1000VA Eaton shipped with 7.5AH. My 1500VA
Tripp-Lites came with 9AH. When I replace I only get the 9AHs so that the 
orphans
that survive failure of a pair have the potential to better match the next 
orphan
and delay another purchase a few months or more. Here in FL, replacement battery
life averages under 30 months, no matter the battery brand. OEM batteries have
averaged more like 54.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
based on faith, not based on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata

Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

[Dan Ritter]

hw wrote: 
> On Fri, 2024-02-09 at 06:44 -0500, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > hw wrote: 
> > > On Thu, 2024-02-08 at 15:29 +, Andy Smith wrote:
> > > > [...]
> > > That sucks.  I didn't know that they don't stand behind their
> > > products, and it makes APC not recommendable any longer.
> > > 
> > > What other manufacturers could we buy UPSs from?
> > 
> > Liebert at the high end, CyberPower at the low end. 
> 
> I've never heard of Liebert, they are rather expensive.  Cyberpower
> seems to be cheap.
> 
> Are they any good, and how is the battery availability?  Can they even
> be monitored?

Liebert is very good, and -- as you said -- expensive. If you
are outfitting a datacenter, they are usually on the list.

Cyberpower is reasonably reliable; the batteries can be found
online. They are USB connected devices readable by NUT.

Some selected stats:

battery.charge: 100
battery.charge.low: 10
battery.charge.warning: 20
battery.runtime: 3060
battery.runtime.low: 300
battery.type: PbAcid
battery.voltage: 24.0
battery.voltage.nominal: 24
device.mfr: CPS
device.model: CST135XLU
device.type: ups
driver.name: usbhid-ups
driver.version: 2.8.0
driver.version.data: CyberPower HID 0.6
driver.version.internal: 0.47
driver.version.usb: libusb-1.0.26 (API: 0x1000109)
input.voltage: 121.0
input.voltage.nominal: 120
output.voltage: 121.0
ups.beeper.status: enabled
ups.load: 16
ups.mfr: CPS
ups.productid: 0501
ups.realpower.nominal: 810
ups.serial: CDQHX2004035
ups.vendorid: 0764

Re: Home UPS recommendations

[hw]

On Fri, 2024-02-09 at 12:10 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:
> hw composed on 2024-02-09 12:07 (UTC+0100):
> 
> > What other manufacturers could we buy UPSs from?
> 
> I bought my first APC just last year, because it was what I found on the 
> shelf in
> WalMart, only 450VA, with "Best-in-class Service and Support", more to protect
> bedroom TV and recorder against anomalies than power outage here in the 
> world's
> lightning capital. All my larger ones that are currently in service are Eaton 
> or
> Tripp-Lite. My spare is a Powercom with steel frame and cover, hard to extract
> swollen old batteries from.

Hm, Powercom doesn't seem to exist here, but Eaton seems to have good
prices.  How's the battery availability with Eaton?

Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

[hw]

On Fri, 2024-02-09 at 11:34 -0500, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
> On Friday 09 February 2024 06:07:16 am hw wrote:
> > What other manufacturers could we buy UPSs from?
>  
> I have a Tripp-Lite sitting next to me here that replaced an APC and
> has 2-1/2 times the capabiliity.  Been in service several weeks and
> so far I'm pretty happy with it...

They seem to be extremely rare here.  Are they any good, and how's the
battery availability?

Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

[hw]

On Fri, 2024-02-09 at 06:44 -0500, Dan Ritter wrote:
> hw wrote: 
> > On Thu, 2024-02-08 at 15:29 +, Andy Smith wrote:
> > > [...]
> > That sucks.  I didn't know that they don't stand behind their
> > products, and it makes APC not recommendable any longer.
> > 
> > What other manufacturers could we buy UPSs from?
> 
> Liebert at the high end, CyberPower at the low end. 

I've never heard of Liebert, they are rather expensive.  Cyberpower
seems to be cheap.

Are they any good, and how is the battery availability?  Can they even
be monitored?

Re: Home UPS recommendations

[debian-user]

Felix Miata  wrote:
> hw composed on 2024-02-09 12:07 (UTC+0100):
> 
> > What other manufacturers could we buy UPSs from?  
> 
> I bought my first APC just last year, because it was what I found on
> the shelf in WalMart, only 450VA, with "Best-in-class Service and
> Support", more to protect bedroom TV and recorder against anomalies
> than power outage here in the world's lightning capital. All my
> larger ones that are currently in service are Eaton or Tripp-Lite. My
> spare is a Powercom with steel frame and cover, hard to extract
> swollen old batteries from.

FWIW Eaton owns Tripp Lite, whilst APC is owned by Schneider Electric.

Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

[Stefan Monnier]

>> What other manufacturers could we buy UPSs from?
> I have a Tripp-Lite sitting next to me here that replaced an APC and has
> 2-1/2 times the capabiliity.  Been in service several weeks and so far I'm
> pretty happy with it...

Would they accept a warranty claim without having to run some
proprietary software (diagnostic and/or OS)?


Stefan

Re: Home UPS recommendations

[Felix Miata]

hw composed on 2024-02-09 12:07 (UTC+0100):

> What other manufacturers could we buy UPSs from?

I bought my first APC just last year, because it was what I found on the shelf 
in
WalMart, only 450VA, with "Best-in-class Service and Support", more to protect
bedroom TV and recorder against anomalies than power outage here in the world's
lightning capital. All my larger ones that are currently in service are Eaton or
Tripp-Lite. My spare is a Powercom with steel frame and cover, hard to extract
swollen old batteries from.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
based on faith, not based on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata

Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

[Roy J. Tellason, Sr.]

On Friday 09 February 2024 06:07:16 am hw wrote:
> What other manufacturers could we buy UPSs from?
 
I have a Tripp-Lite sitting next to me here that replaced an APC and has 2-1/2 
times the capabiliity.  Been in service several weeks and so far I'm pretty 
happy with it...


-- 
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James 
M Dakin

Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

[Dan Ritter]

hw wrote: 
> On Thu, 2024-02-08 at 15:29 +, Andy Smith wrote:
> > [...]
> That sucks.  I didn't know that they don't stand behind their
> products, and it makes APC not recommendable any longer.
> 
> What other manufacturers could we buy UPSs from?

Liebert at the high end, CyberPower at the low end. 

-dsr-

Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

[hw]

On Thu, 2024-02-08 at 15:29 +, Andy Smith wrote:
> [...]
> Someone on the apcupsd mailing list thinks I have a faulty UPS or
> battery and should get a replacement.
> 
> APC refuses to proceed with a warranty claim because they don't
> support apcupsd or nut, only their own proprietary Powerchute. They
> won't proceed unless I can get Powerchute to show these events or a
> failed self-test.

That sucks.  I didn't know that they don't stand behind their
products, and it makes APC not recommendable any longer.

What other manufacturers could we buy UPSs from?

> [...]
> Having said that, I don't need to do a warranty claim. As it was
> only purchased a couple of weeks ago, consumer law allows me to
> return it to the seller as faulty whether they accept that or not,
> so I'll likely do that. It's just disappointing and a lot more
> hassle.

That seems like the best option.  You can then buy from a better
manufacturer which may avoid having trouble with APC later if there's
a problem.

Re: Home UPS recommendations

[Michael Kjörling]

On 8 Feb 2024 16:34 -, from cu...@free.fr (Curt):
> I wonder if he could run the app on one of these virtual machines for
> evaluation purposes:

Using an evaluation copy of Windows with USB pass-through might be the
easiest way to run APC's proprietary software.

Or since that's an option, just return the UPS as a "I changed my
mind". Whether or not it's technically broken, seems to me that it's
clearly not healthy.

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

[Curt]

On 2024-02-08, Charles Curley  wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Feb 2024 15:29:21 +
> Andy Smith  wrote:
>
>> I do not overly want to buy a Windows licence, run it
>> in a VM and pass USB through to that VM just to try this.
>
> You could try wine. You might need the more recent crossover-office,
> which is proprietary (but contributes greatly to wine).
>

I wonder if he could run the app on one of these virtual machines for
evaluation purposes:

https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/downloads/virtual-machines/

Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

[Charles Curley]

On Thu, 8 Feb 2024 15:29:21 +
Andy Smith  wrote:

> I do not overly want to buy a Windows licence, run it
> in a VM and pass USB through to that VM just to try this.

You could try wine. You might need the more recent crossover-office,
which is proprietary (but contributes greatly to wine).

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Sun, Jan 28, 2024 at 06:55:04PM +, Andy Smith wrote:
> So, I must admit, I am quite tempted by BX1600MI which would cost me
> about £183. The equivalent spec in the Pro range is more than twice
> this price.

[ TL;DR: While free software like apcupsd or nut support all APC
  models that you can buy today, APC (Schneider Electric) the
  company only supports its own Windows-only Powerchute and won't do
  a warranty claim unless you can run that. I therefore question the
  device's suitability to a Linux environment. ]

Just as an update, I bought the APC Back-UPS BX1600MI and while
superficially it seems fine, using "apcupsd" and/or "nut" it reports
a constant stream of short-lived (less than 1 second) battery
detach/re-attach and powerfail/restore events.

The unit itself doesn't show any audible or visual alarm but as
these events are sub-second in duration I don't know if they are
just too quick for that.

Someone on the apcupsd mailing list thinks I have a faulty UPS or
battery and should get a replacement.

APC refuses to proceed with a warranty claim because they don't
support apcupsd or nut, only their own proprietary Powerchute. They
won't proceed unless I can get Powerchute to show these events or a
failed self-test. I can't do that because I don't have any Windows
machines. I do not overly want to buy a Windows licence, run it
in a VM and pass USB through to that VM just to try this.

While in theory if I had heeded the warnings about Back-UPS being of
lesser quality I might have bought a more expensive model that
wasn't faulty (or at least did not have this problem, whatever it
is), I am disappointed to learn that APC will not proceed with
warranty claims unless you can run some Windows software, which puts
me off the entire product range.

Having said that, I don't need to do a warranty claim. As it was
only purchased a couple of weeks ago, consumer law allows me to
return it to the seller as faulty whether they accept that or not,
so I'll likely do that. It's just disappointing and a lot more
hassle.

Thanks,
Andy

Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync--delete-after)

[gene heskett]

On 1/28/24 13:55, Andy Smith wrote:

Hi,

Thanks, this is very useful.

On Sun, Jan 28, 2024 at 06:58:08PM +0100, hw wrote:

However, stay away from their cheap models as seen on this[1] picture
(Back UPS).  They work and you can replace the batteries yourself even
though you're not supposed to.  It's a minimum basic device.  It may
be on ok option if you're on a budget.  Their batteries last about 3
years.


So, I must admit, I am quite tempted by BX1600MI which would cost me
about £183. The equivalent spec in the Pro range is more than twice
this price.

Although the battery is not strictly user-replaceable, I watched
some videos on the task and it seems pretty easily doable.

Something for me to think on.

Thanks,
Andy


I'm a fan of APC, but the consumer versions. and I don't worry about 
batteries until they won't last the 6 or 7 seconds it takes to spin up 
the 20kw kohler in the back yard. My now deceased wife was on an oxy 
concentrator the last 15 years of her life, and a power failure of 20 
minutes might have finished her, so I bought a standby just a few months 
before the direcho that took power down for 3 days in June 2010. Very 
handy since.


I have an APC-1600 that been begging for a battery for a couple years, 
Still works fine for those few seconds.

Take care, stay well, Andy.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

[Andy Smith]

Hi,

Thanks, this is very useful.

On Sun, Jan 28, 2024 at 06:58:08PM +0100, hw wrote:
> However, stay away from their cheap models as seen on this[1] picture
> (Back UPS).  They work and you can replace the batteries yourself even
> though you're not supposed to.  It's a minimum basic device.  It may
> be on ok option if you're on a budget.  Their batteries last about 3
> years.

So, I must admit, I am quite tempted by BX1600MI which would cost me
about £183. The equivalent spec in the Pro range is more than twice
this price.

Although the battery is not strictly user-replaceable, I watched
some videos on the task and it seems pretty easily doable.

Something for me to think on.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

[hw]

On Fri, 2024-01-26 at 15:17 +, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Fri, Jan 26, 2024 at 04:11:39PM +0100, hw wrote:
> > I've never had issues with any UPS due to self tests.  The batteries
> > need to be replaced when they are worn out.  How often that is
> > required depends on the UPS and the conditions it is working in,
> > usually every 3--5 years.
> 
> Out of interest what brand of UPS do you recommend for home use that
> has easily-replaceable batteries every 3–5 years? For a load of
> about 300W.

Generally I recommend APC because they work well (which is something
to be expected and shouldn't need to be pointed out), they can easily
be monitored with apcupsd and, very importantly, their batteries are
usually easily available so you can replace them without difficulty.

However, stay away from their cheap models as seen on this[1] picture
(Back UPS).  They work and you can replace the batteries yourself even
though you're not supposed to.  It's a minimum basic device.  It may
be on ok option if you're on a budget.  Their batteries last about 3
years.

I like the better models way better, like as on that[2] picture (Back
UPS pro).  I bought one a bit over 10 years ago (it even came with a
120k or so warranty for when a device protected by it would get
damaged) and replaced the batteries twice so far.  It's been working
without any issues ever since, and it'll probably work as long as new
batteries remain available.  So that's about 3 years battery life as
well.

Then it depends on a lot of things, primarily on the availability of
replacement batteries, then on how much you're willing to spend ---
since you can buy used ones because the only thing that goes bad is
the batteries, and you can find new old stock --- how much power you
need, if you want one that features a network card and if you want a
19" rack version or a standalone version.

Of course, their models change over time.  The 900VA smart UPS pro
delivers up to 540W, IIRC, and when it's overloaded it very annoyingly
beeps, but it continues to provide power.  I guess it shuts down when
it's overloaded and the main power fails, but I've never had that
happen yet.

For only 300W you go for this one:
https://www.apc.com/us/en/product/BR700G/apc-backups-pro-700va-420w-tower-120v-6x-nema-515r-outlets-avr-lcd-user-replaceable-battery/

Just keep in mind that you usually end up needing a UPS with higher
capacity than you planned for.  So it makes sense to check what the
batterie(s) cost and what the price difference between models with
lower and higher capacity is.  Some models take two or more batteries
while the version with lower capacity may take the same battery but
only one, making it overall so much cheaper that the model with more
capacity that requires two (or more) batteries may get too expensive.
But there may be a model with slightly more capacity that still takes
only one battery and you may be glad later that you spent a little
more money for more capacity.

Definitely stay away from UPSs from HP.  If you can reach someone from
HP at all, they will charge you before they would tell you what the
price of the batteries might be :(

Eaton probably makes good ones, too, but they're not common here, same
as another manufacturer the name of which I can't remember.  So I have
no experience with them.

Of course, you don't want to buy one from an unknown manufacturer with
no reputation, especially when it's a chinese one.  The batteries are
pretty generic, but for all you know, the manufacturer may have not
understood that pretty high currents can flow in an UPS and probably
has skimped on the wiring and/or other components to keep it cheap,
and it'll set your house on fire.  APC has understood that even in
their basic models (at least for the wiring; I can't tell for the
other components since I don't have enough knowledge about those).

After having said all the above, it's pretty simple because it comes
down to that, unless anything APC is difficult to come by where you
life, you can't go wrong with APC.


[1]: https://cdn-reichelt.de/bilder/web/xxl_ws/E910/APC_BX1400U_01.png
[2]:
https://oaziscomputer.hu/images/products/6934_apc-back-ups-pro-900-br900g-gr_1527776643.jpg

Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

[Roger Price]

On Fri, 26 Jan 2024, David Wright wrote:

On Fri 26 Jan 2024 at 19:03:33 (+0100), Roger Price wrote:

I currently have two Eaton Ellipse ECO 1600's. ... The four screws are deeply 
recessed and difficult to see.  They have different heads: some are Torx 10, 
others are a star.



20/20 hindsight might suggest that you were only intended
to remove the star, if by that you mean Philips/Pozidrive.


What I called "star" is probably a Quadrex.

Roger

Re: Home UPS recommendations

[debian-user]

ghe2001  wrote:

> Take a look at Tripp Lite:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripp_Lite
> 
> I used them for years to back up a small domain -- they make
> sine-wave electricity.

One of the references in the wikipedia article looked interesting:

https://www.computerworld.com/article/2472189/a-surge-protector-that-doesn-t-protect.html

Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

[David Wright]

On Fri 26 Jan 2024 at 19:03:33 (+0100), Roger Price wrote:

> I currently have two Eaton Ellipse ECO 1600's.  I change the batteries
> every 4-5 years, but this is not as easy as it should be.  It is not
> evident that only one of the four back panel screws needs to be
> removed.  I took me a while to learn this.  The four screws are deeply
> recessed and difficult to see.  They have different heads: some are
> Torx 10, others are a star.  Keep trying different screwdrivers until
> you feel something turning.

20/20 hindsight might suggest that you were only intended
to remove the star, if by that you mean Philips/Pozidrive.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Home UPS recommendations

[ghe2001]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Take a look at Tripp Lite:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripp_Lite

I used them for years to back up a small domain -- they make sine-wave 
electricity.

--
Glenn English

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Re: Home UPS recommendations

[Felix Miata]

Andy Smith composed on 2024-01-26 10:17 (UTC-0500):

> On Fri, Jan 26, 2024 at 04:11:39PM +0100, hw wrote:

>> I've never had issues with any UPS due to self tests.  The batteries
>> need to be replaced when they are worn out.  How often that is
>> required depends on the UPS and the conditions it is working in,
>> usually every 3--5 years.

> Out of interest what brand of UPS do you recommend for home use that
> has easily-replaceable batteries every 3–5 years? For a load of
> about 300W.

Ambient temps have a huge effect on UPS battery life. Temps here are purposely
above average, between 76F (winter) and 82F (summer), saving much electricity in
cooling season, which here in Florida is long, among other reasons. Before I
moved, I had 7 UPSes online at all times due to unconscionable frequency and
length of power outages from the monopoly power provider. Since moving I'm down 
to
4. It was uncommon for replacement batteries to last more than 30 months, and
common that they lasted less than 24 to as little as 18 or 20. OEM batteries
usually managed up to 60. Those with plastic instead of metal cases have the
advantage that swollen old batteries can usually be extracted successfully, 
while
metal could necessitate such heroics as drill and saw to extricate. My favorite
brands are Tripp-Lite and Eaton.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
based on faith, not based on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata

Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

[Roger Price]

On Fri, 26 Jan 2024, Andy Smith wrote:


Out of interest what brand of UPS do you recommend for home use that
has easily-replaceable batteries every 3–5 years? For a load of
about 300W.


I currently have two Eaton Ellipse ECO 1600's.  I change the batteries every 4-5 
years, but this is not as easy as it should be.  It is not evident that only one 
of the four back panel screws needs to be removed.  I took me a while to learn 
this.  The four screws are deeply recessed and difficult to see.  They have 
different heads: some are Torx 10, others are a star.  Keep trying different 
screwdrivers until you feel something turning.


The battery compartment is too tight. I took me 4 attempts to get the batteries 
back in, with the cables still connected and positioned such that the rear panel 
can be put back.


If you re-assemble and the UPS doesn't respond to pressing the ON/OFF button, 
then the battery leads have detached.  Start all over again.  Good luck!


It could have been a lot easier.  Roger

Re: Home UPS recommendations

[James H. H. Lampert]

I, too, have always used APC.

I've heard people swear by APC, and I've heard people swear *at* APC. 
I've had reason to do both, myself (and I won't elaborate on either).


--
James H. H. Lampert

Re: Home UPS recommendations

[Tixy]

On Fri, 2024-01-26 at 15:37 +, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> On 26 Jan 2024 15:17 +, from a...@strugglers.net (Andy Smith):
> > Out of interest what brand of UPS do you recommend for home use that
> > has easily-replaceable batteries every 3–5 years? For a load of
> > about 300W.
> 
> I would suggest to look at the free-standing floor-/tower-model APC
> _Back-UPS Pro_ series.

I have had a couple of those, never had any problems with them. Though
replacement batteries cost more than half the price of a new UPS so I
ended up just buying a a second UPS when the original batteries got
rather feeble. (After 7 years).

I've now stopped using it though because of the cost of the electricity
it uses. It uses 18W when just sitting there ready for action, which 
worked out at 40GBP a year!

-- 
Tixy

Re: Home UPS recommendations

[Michael Kjörling]

On 26 Jan 2024 15:17 +, from a...@strugglers.net (Andy Smith):
> Out of interest what brand of UPS do you recommend for home use that
> has easily-replaceable batteries every 3–5 years? For a load of
> about 300W.

I would suggest to look at the free-standing floor-/tower-model APC
_Back-UPS Pro_ series.

They come in a variety of sizes, the battery is easily replacable (not
sure if you can do it online, though; I've never had reason to look
that up or try it) and they aren't horribly expensive to purchase
(though in fairness not the cheapest).

I have several and they have been very reliable. Battery replacement
is basically flip it onto its side, remove a lid, slide the old
battery out, put the new battery in, put the lid back, and done.

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

[fxkl47BF]

On Fri, 26 Jan 2024, Andy Smith wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Fri, Jan 26, 2024 at 04:11:39PM +0100, hw wrote:
>> I've never had issues with any UPS due to self tests.  The batteries
>> need to be replaced when they are worn out.  How often that is
>> required depends on the UPS and the conditions it is working in,
>> usually every 3--5 years.
>
> Out of interest what brand of UPS do you recommend for home use that
> has easily-replaceable batteries every 3–5 years? For a load of
> about 300W.


just my experience
i have 2 apc 740's that date from the mid 90's
when the internal battery gave out i added a 50 amp anderson connector
i connect to a 35ah sla
you can change battteries while it's running