Re: OT: Seeking Advice on Purchasing a Laptop
On 11/27/12, Doug dmcgarr...@optonline.net wrote: On 11/26/2012 11:51 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote: The problem with proprietary drivers is of course that they're proprietary, but on top of that, they aren't as hassle-free to install and update. 1. Proprietary drivers are generally written by the folks who know the product the best, and so have the best chance of working without bugs. Like Intel's graphics drivers? 2. Unless you intend to modify the driver yourself by modifying the underlying code, why should you care if it's proprietary? Are you serious? (Have you ever read the GPL license, or other documents with such grounds/ reasons/ positions?) Your statement implies bias on your part. Not necessarily, yet implied. Off the top of my head: 1) Obsolescence/backwaters issue: ability for others to modify means greater likelihood of fixes for drivers for older hardware. 2) Educational purposes: proprietary cannot be used to learn from, eg school, uni, personal, etc. 3) Tainting of Linux kernel: ie frowned on bug reports with Linux devs. 4) Blind trust requirement/ phoning home: must trust developer to not include code which is against my interests; code cannot be inspected, so no trust certainty pathway; drivers are in kernel, so are given trust at an OS level. 5) Custom kernels inflexibility: often times (at least in the past, I have no experience as of recent years) proprietary drivers == a limitation on compiling your own kernel, or lack of support for kernels provided with lesser known/ smaller distros. Want to run and learn about vservers, the latest rt-kernel for minimum-latency audio, ... ... then problem can be (I should say, has been, may be still is, if not today, may yet be). 6) Security by obscurity: delays in fixing of security bugs (without ability to verify the fix works, or doesn't introduce a new security bug) even if discovered. 6b) Inability to fix, or pay someone to fix, security bugs in proprietary closed code if you want to do that. 7) Built in to default install disks. Don't have to do separate download/ install step. 8) Libre/ freedom (I should have put this first): I actually care about freedom for freedoms' sake! We stand on the shoulders of giants in so many ways, not just technically; that old adage applies very well to freedom too, those freedoms we are free to be so careless about! The early K Desktop Environment, now KDE, developers decided it was worth a little short term effort and undoubtedly frustrations etc, to create a more free GUI desktop than had existed before. This spurred the GNOME project and today we have much truly libre GUI desktop software (if not ideally integrated yet) to choose from. 9) My point is, we ought to be celebrating those who are willing to suffer their time and effort, who sacrifice their short-term convenience, for our longer term strengthening of our freedoms. It is because those who've gone before have done so that we have so much freedom today (technically and otherwise). And google would undoubtedly find more. 3. Probably come in both deb and rpm form, so should install easily on most systems. Unlike libre drivers? I guess that at least for mainstream distros, there is a pathway to install your proprietary driver... that be convenient for those who want them, no? 4. May even have instructions, which is more than can be said for most Linux software! most? Does your definition of instructions be a file called README.txt with a file called README not counting? I guess proprietary drivers have the advantage of forums ... 5. If it works when you install it, there should be no reason *ever* to update it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it! --Ann Landers If you choose to use proprietary drivers, that's fine by me. They are their own reward, so to speak :) I can well believe, that in certain circumstances, and for certain purposes, proprietary drivers even have specific advantages which could be enumerated. I'm not overly interested in those myself, but that doesn't stop them satisfying yours or others' needs/ use cases etc. Anyway... back to life, Regards Zenaan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAOsGNSQ01xeioserkywLu31n0dcuN=A2geWL56Fj=9mn15g...@mail.gmail.com
Re: OT: Seeking Advice on Purchasing a Laptop
1. Proprietary drivers are generally written by the folks who know the product the best, and so have the best chance of working without bugs. Obvious. But some free drivers are also made by people which know the hardware, when it's specifications are free. 2. Unless you intend to modify the driver yourself by modifying the underlying code, why should you care if it's proprietary? Honestly, I do not mind the full freedom point. But proprietary softwares are real, technical limitations. Examples: NVidia's drivers does not support randr. Opera does not integrates well with the desktop. 3. Probably come in both deb and rpm form, so should install easily on most systems. Of proprietary softwares that run well on GNU/linux, I can see 2: _ NVidia drivers _ opera browser The first one only provide a .run binary, in the windows's way. It is boring as hell to install. The second one provides .deb, and it is very easy to install/update. It is a little like softwares you have installed but are not present in the official distro's repos: some are nicely made, others are tricky. 4. May even have instructions, which is more than can be said for most Linux software! Instructions are present in both free and non-free softwares. But for most free softwares, it covers more special cases and/or the community is bigger or have better technical knowledge. 5. If it works when you install it, there should be no reason *ever* to update it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it! --Ann Landers Hum. So, while you do not notice a problem by yourself, you will not fix it? I can not agree: I have not enough time to spend in the plethora of softwares installed here to follow lists and test bugs. And proprietary softwares are not always very communicative on problems they have. But I think the free way is not the way to go for some kinds of softwares, if their developers wants to live from their work (an example would be off-line games). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2ffa5962ffebcbd33abcbd17857a87c2.squir...@www.sud-ouest.org
Re: OT: Seeking Advice on Purchasing a Laptop
Doug wrote at 2012-11-27 00:15 -0600: 1. Proprietary drivers are generally written by the folks who know the product the best, and so have the best chance of working without bugs. 5. If it works when you install it, there should be no reason *ever* to update it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it! --Ann Landers Ignoring the other points, these 2 are radically different than the experience I had with nvidia drivers a few years ago, and the fglrx trouble that (seemingly) everyone was having around the same time. I avoid proprietary software because I have had a lot more trouble with it than free/open-source software. Of course I do acknowedge that there does exist excellent non-free/closed-source software. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: OT: Seeking Advice on Purchasing a Laptop
The problem with proprietary drivers is of course that they're proprietary, but on top of that, they aren't as hassle-free to install and update. Stefan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/jwvfw3v8xjv.fsf-monnier+gmane.linux.debian.u...@gnu.org
Re: OT: Seeking Advice on Purchasing a Laptop
On 11/26/2012 11:51 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote: The problem with proprietary drivers is of course that they're proprietary, but on top of that, they aren't as hassle-free to install and update. Stefan 1. Proprietary drivers are generally written by the folks who know the product the best, and so have the best chance of working without bugs. 2. Unless you intend to modify the driver yourself by modifying the underlying code, why should you care if it's proprietary? 3. Probably come in both deb and rpm form, so should install easily on most systems. 4. May even have instructions, which is more than can be said for most Linux software! 5. If it works when you install it, there should be no reason *ever* to update it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it! --Ann Landers --doug -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50b45a99.20...@optonline.net
Re: OT: Seeking Advice on Purchasing a Laptop
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 11:02:42AM +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote: On 11/24/12, Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote: On Vi, 23 nov 12, 07:25:29, Nate Bargmann wrote: * On 2012 23 Nov 05:43 -0600, Andrei POPESCU wrote: Thinkpad. Avoid ATI graphics if possible. Why? I've had good experiences with both, IBM Thinkpads (had an a21m that lasted forever, ran Debian, #!, PeppermintOS, and PCLinuxOS on it, all perfectly), and Dells (currently have an old d420 I purchased on ebay for like $120, running crunchbang, which is essentially debian+openbox, works flawlessly). ./tony -- http://www.tonybaldwin.me all tony, all the time! 3F330C6E signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: OT: Seeking Advice on Purchasing a Laptop
On 11/24/2012 05:06 AM, Tony Baldwin wrote: On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 11:02:42AM +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote: On 11/24/12, Andrei POPESCUandreimpope...@gmail.com wrote: On Vi, 23 nov 12, 07:25:29, Nate Bargmann wrote: * On 2012 23 Nov 05:43 -0600, Andrei POPESCU wrote: Thinkpad. Avoid ATI graphics if possible. I s Why? I've had good experiences with both, IBM Thinkpads (had an a21m that lasted forever, ran Debian, #!, PeppermintOS, and PCLinuxOS on it, all perfectly), and Dells (currently have an old d420 I purchased on ebay for like $120, running crunchbang, which is essentially debian+openbox, works flawlessly). ./tony I've only owned one laptop so my experience is somewhat limited. But I think you need to as some of the following questions: 1. Are you a gamer or more of a normal user or a media freek. 2. How portable must the unit be. 3. How long must it run on batteries. 4. How much are you willing to pay. 5. Do you do graphics - need a lot of screen real-estate. I own a Qosmio G25-av315. It weighs about 9.5 lbs and gets about 1 hr on the batteries. It's more of a portable computer than a laptop. For this I get an 18 inch screen, all kinds of media capability, two 60GB hard drives and a raft of compatibility headaches. I set the system up as a dual boot with Debian Linux on one disk and Windows XP on the other. The Debian side has never been completely functional - but adaquate for my needs. The XP side is fully functional but is fast becoming a problem. There seems to be no upgrade path to Windows 8. This last problem is going to get worse the more complicated the laptop. This Qosmio has a TV receiver (never used) and dolby sound system. Trying to find linux drivers for some of this stuff means that firmware has to be swapped out in the fly. Not a good situation. My advise. By only what you absolutely need. Forget the bells and whistles unless you really have a specific need. Simple is cheaper and probably more useful. Unless you need this within the next 6-12 months you might consider waiting to see what happens with bigger ePaper screens. I want a tablet but won't buy until I find one with a ePaper screen. The battery life goes up by a factor of 10 or more and the screen is readable at very obtuse angles and in direct sun light. i hope this helps Gary R. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50b0fefd.6000...@verizon.net
Re: OT: Seeking Advice on Purchasing a Laptop
On Lu, 12 nov 12, 12:21:30, Thomas H. George wrote: My backup desktop died and I am thinking of replacing it with a laptop. I am not a gamer but a bit more than a routine user, i.e. occasionally use big programs and am interested in experimenting with Blender. I want to stick with Debian and have no need of Window$. Touch screen is not essential though I am fond of the touch screen on my HP Touchpad which is modified to run Android. Urgency is not high as I have a full backup of the system. Advice? Thinkpad. Avoid ATI graphics if possible. Kind regards, Andrei -- Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: OT: Seeking Advice on Purchasing a Laptop
* On 2012 23 Nov 05:43 -0600, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Lu, 12 nov 12, 12:21:30, Thomas H. George wrote: My backup desktop died and I am thinking of replacing it with a laptop. I am not a gamer but a bit more than a routine user, i.e. occasionally use big programs and am interested in experimenting with Blender. I want to stick with Debian and have no need of Window$. Touch screen is not essential though I am fond of the touch screen on my HP Touchpad which is modified to run Android. Urgency is not high as I have a full backup of the system. Advice? Thinkpad. Avoid ATI graphics if possible. Why? All of the video cards I have--laptop and desktop--are ATI chipsets of varying vintage or Intel in IBM/Lenovo boxen (Thinkpads and ThinkCentres). I bought an Nvidia board on recommendation for the Mythbuntu box some years ago. It was an overheating piece of junk and is long gone. I'll go out of my way to avoid Nvidia. My main desktop has an ATI dual port board that allows me to use Zaphodheads mode and with Xfce have an independent desktop on each monitor, each with its own workspaces, etc. I use the open source Radeon X driver. - Nate -- The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true. Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20121123132529.gw6...@n0nb.us
Re: OT: Seeking Advice on Purchasing a Laptop
On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 5:41 AM, Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.comwrote: Thinkpad. Avoid ATI graphics if possible. I think you spelled nVidia wrong. http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/06/torvalds-nvidia-linux/
Re: OT: Seeking Advice on Purchasing a Laptop
On Vi, 23 nov 12, 07:25:29, Nate Bargmann wrote: * On 2012 23 Nov 05:43 -0600, Andrei POPESCU wrote: Thinkpad. Avoid ATI graphics if possible. Why? The free driver seems to be good, but low performance. I've had issues with the non-free driver. If you don't care about performance Intel chips will serve you just as good (and probably be cheaper). If you need maximum performance Nvidia with the non-free driver is better in my experience. Kind regards, Andrei -- Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: OT: Seeking Advice on Purchasing a Laptop
On 11/24/12, Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote: On Vi, 23 nov 12, 07:25:29, Nate Bargmann wrote: * On 2012 23 Nov 05:43 -0600, Andrei POPESCU wrote: Thinkpad. Avoid ATI graphics if possible. Why? The free driver seems to be good, but low performance. I've had issues with the non-free driver. If you don't care about performance Intel chips will serve you just as good (and probably be cheaper). If you need maximum performance Nvidia with the non-free driver is better in my experience. Better in performance, I can't speak to. Better in freedom, it is not. Regards Zenaan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caosgnsq8wre6ercnf4gypdyyfhtu_r_zpkfn3hmumquofoj...@mail.gmail.com
Re: OT: Seeking Advice on Purchasing a Laptop
On Sat, 2012-11-24 at 11:02 +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote: On 11/24/12, Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote: On Vi, 23 nov 12, 07:25:29, Nate Bargmann wrote: * On 2012 23 Nov 05:43 -0600, Andrei POPESCU wrote: Thinkpad. Avoid ATI graphics if possible. Why? The free driver seems to be good, but low performance. I've had issues with the non-free driver. If you don't care about performance Intel chips will serve you just as good (and probably be cheaper). If you need maximum performance Nvidia with the non-free driver is better in my experience. Better in performance, I can't speak to. Better in freedom, it is not. Dogmas are stupid. I'm using an ATI with the open source driver, but I've got a NVIDIA at hand and if needed I would use the NVIDIA with the proprietary driver. Using my ATI with it's proprietary driver doesn't work. Proprietary ATI drivers only work for some versions of X, then they stop support for a card. The user needs to buy a new ATI graphics or has to use the open source driver. NVIDIA cards are better supported. 3D acceleration is provided by the open source drivers for ATI and NVIDIA and nowadays even nouveau seldom is an issue any more, just in some cases nouveau, the open source NVIDIA driver still does cause issues, OTOH the proprietary drivers in some cases could cause issues too. I experienced Intel as to expensive for my purse, so I don't have experiences with Intel, I never noticed that Intel is cheaper. IMO NVIDIA is the best way to go in most cases. For something like Google Earth there's no difference in the performance, when using open source drivers or proprietary drivers. Regards, Ralf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1353716360.11101.72.camel@q
Re: OT: Seeking Advice on Purchasing a Laptop
On 11/12/12, Thomas H. George li...@tomgeorge.info wrote: My backup desktop died and I am thinking of replacing it with a laptop. I am not a gamer but a bit more than a routine user, i.e. occasionally use big programs and am interested in experimenting with Blender. I want to stick with Debian and have no need of Window$. Touch screen is not essential though I am fond of the touch screen on my HP Touchpad which is modified to run Android. Urgency is not high as I have a full backup of the system. Advice? One thing to think about is placement of the ctrl key. It gets used a lot, especially when editing. So it's placement is of great importance ergonomically. Regards /Lars -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CACq_q0exHVpgqrGPd3WFyearsp=sv3hygv_fhcsksoxtxd-...@mail.gmail.com
Re: OT: Seeking Advice on Purchasing a Laptop
On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 08:43:25PM +0200, Lars Noodén wrote: One thing to think about is placement of the ctrl key. It gets used a lot, especially when editing. So it's placement is of great importance ergonomically. Only if you use emacs, if you use vim, for example, it hardly gets used at all. -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20121112231814.GA30323@tal
Re: OT: Seeking Advice on Purchasing a Laptop
On 11/12/2012 06:18 PM, Chris Bannister wrote: On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 08:43:25PM +0200, Lars Noodén wrote: One thing to think about is placement of the ctrl key. It gets used a lot, especially when editing. So it's placement is of great importance ergonomically. Only if you use emacs, if you use vim, for example, it hardly gets used at all. I have an older Dell Inspiron 6400/E1505. and I like it a lot. It has a very good keyboard for a laptop, probably the best I've run into. All the keys are in normal places, except because it has no separate number pad or the 6 keys a desktop k/b has to the right of the Backspace and \ keys, the delete key is after the F12 key. So if they still make as nice a machine as this one, then I recommend Dell. (I'm running PCLinuxOS on it, and it works fine. I dual boot with XP, but hardly ever use the m/s os.) --doug -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50a1897e.6060...@optonline.net
Re: OT: Seeking Advice on Purchasing a Laptop
I run a Lenovo ThinkPad, but I repair Dells for a living. I just have to wonder what the heck Dell was thinking having Fn and Ctrl in opposite of correct order... On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 10:41 PM, Kushal Kumaran kushal.kumaran+deb...@gmail.com wrote: Lars Noodén lars.noo...@gmail.com writes: On 11/12/12, Thomas H. George li...@tomgeorge.info wrote: My backup desktop died and I am thinking of replacing it with a laptop. I am not a gamer but a bit more than a routine user, i.e. occasionally use big programs and am interested in experimenting with Blender. I want to stick with Debian and have no need of Window$. Touch screen is not essential though I am fond of the touch screen on my HP Touchpad which is modified to run Android. Urgency is not high as I have a full backup of the system. Advice? One thing to think about is placement of the ctrl key. It gets used a lot, especially when editing. So it's placement is of great importance ergonomically. Is that such a big problem, though? Every laptop keyboard I've used has had the CapsLock key placed prominently and I've always configured it to be an additional Ctrl. Placement of the physical Ctrl key is mostly a non-issue for me, even though I'm an emacs user. -- regards, kushal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87r4nyktbw.fsf@nitrogen.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me
Re: OT: Seeking Advice on Purchasing a Laptop
On 11/12/2012 11:45 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: I run a Lenovo ThinkPad, but I repair Dells for a living. I just have to wonder what the heck Dell was thinking having Fn and Ctrl in opposite of correct order... /snip/ Must be a newer Dell. My Dell laptop has the left CTRL key at the far left extreme of the bottom row, just like on my old IBM keyboard. It has a Fn key where the IBM has only an empty space. A much more modern keyboad, a Scorpius LIV has all kinds of push bottons and stuff, but the left CTRL is also at the extreme left bottom row. However, if the CTRL key is not where it normally is, perhaps this url will help you to move it: (Google's your friend!) http://www.askvg.com/customize-any-key-in-your-keyboard-using-sharpkeys/ --doug -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50a1dd75.2000...@optonline.net
