Re: Election status
On Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 07:49:37PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: Andrew == Andrew Pimlott [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Andrew How about: Andrew - When you vote, you additionally generate a random id and submit it Andrewwith the vote. Andrew - In the vote list, the secretary publishes the id next to the vote. Andrew You can still verify your vote, but you have no way to prove that you Andrew chose a particular id, so you can't convince anyone that a particular Andrew vote is yours. This is in no way better than the scheme we have coded and working right now. If someone can force you to give up your token, they can force you to divulge your random id; and if the id is next to the vote, you are sunk (The trick is, of course, that I'll get your ID from you before the vote tally sheet is published, so you can't fake it). I grant you that it is susceptible to someone who gets to you before the vote. This seems very hard to defend: the enemy can just insist that you send him your signed vote, and let him submit it. To beat this, you would have to be able to revoke the coerced vote in a way that makes the enemy think the vote he sent was counted, but makes you certain that yours was counted and his was not. Too hard for me. I think my scheme has the (slight?) advantage that it is not susceptible to someone who gets to you after the vote. The existing scheme allows you to prove (willingly) your vote to someone you meet after the vote. And, it allows an enemy who gets to you after the vote to coerce you to reveal your vote--unless you can convince him that you have destroyed and forgotten your confirmation message. (BTW, I'm not suggesting you change the scheme. Just exploring ideas.) In one way it is worse: What if 50 people choose Mickey Flood as their randomg ID? Obviously, the server rejects duplicate id's (and forces the voter to resubmit). Ok, there is a slight problem: if the secretary is crooked, and two people submit the same id and the same vote, he can forge a vote. But if people are told to choose their id's randomly, the chance can be made negligible. Andrew -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Election status
On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 10:10:39AM -0500, Andrew Pimlott wrote: I grant you that it is susceptible to someone who gets to you before the vote. This seems very hard to defend: the enemy can just insist that you send him your signed vote, and let him submit it. To beat this, you would have to be able to revoke the coerced vote in a way that makes the enemy think the vote he sent was counted, but makes you certain that yours was counted and his was not. Too hard for me. Actually, it's pretty easy. As part of the vote, you have an order id, and whichever of these is highest, no matter what order the votes were received in, is accepted. So you give the bully the vote he wants, with `one bazillion' in the order field, and then submit the vote you really wanted with `one bazillion and one' in the order field. You need to be careful with your acks and naks in this case though. Obviously, the server rejects duplicate id's (and forces the voter to resubmit). Ok, there is a slight problem: if the secretary is crooked, and two people submit the same id and the same vote, he can forge a vote. But if people are told to choose their id's randomly, the chance can be made negligible. It's trivial for Debian users to generate high quality 128 bit random numbers, so it's also trivial to avoid collisions with something so near to certainty it's not worth worrying about. Cheers, aj -- Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/ I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred. Vote [1] Bdale! msg01667/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Election status
On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 01:44:13AM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote: On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 10:10:39AM -0500, Andrew Pimlott wrote: I grant you that it is susceptible to someone who gets to you before the vote. This seems very hard to defend: the enemy can just insist that you send him your signed vote, and let him submit it. To beat this, you would have to be able to revoke the coerced vote in a way that makes the enemy think the vote he sent was counted, but makes you certain that yours was counted and his was not. Too hard for me. Actually, it's pretty easy. As part of the vote, you have an order id, and whichever of these is highest, no matter what order the votes were received in, is accepted. So you give the bully the vote he wants, with `one bazillion' in the order field, and then submit the vote you really wanted with `one bazillion and one' in the order field. You need to be careful with your acks and naks in this case though. But he will see that his vote wasn't counted, and punish you. How can you foil him, without him knowing you foiled him? Andrew -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Election status
On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 10:59:51AM -0500, Andrew Pimlott wrote: On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 01:44:13AM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote: On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 10:10:39AM -0500, Andrew Pimlott wrote: I grant you that it is susceptible to someone who gets to you before the vote. This seems very hard to defend: the enemy can just insist that you send him your signed vote, and let him submit it. To beat this, you would have to be able to revoke the coerced vote in a way that makes the enemy think the vote he sent was counted, but makes you certain that yours was counted and his was not. Too hard for me. Actually, it's pretty easy. As part of the vote, you have an order id, and whichever of these is highest, no matter what order the votes were received in, is accepted. So you give the bully the vote he wants, with `one bazillion' in the order field, and then submit the vote you really wanted with `one bazillion and one' in the order field. You need to be careful with your acks and naks in this case though. But he will see that his vote wasn't counted, and punish you. How can you foil him, without him knowing you foiled him? How will he see that, exactly? There weren't any tallies posted at the end to let people verify things, and every correctly formatted, signed vote gets an ack, whether it actually gets counted or not. Getting both verifiability and deniability is difficult. Getting one or the other is quite possible, though, which was the point of the above. Cheers, aj -- Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/ I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred. Vote [1] Bdale! msg01670/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Election status
On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:07:56AM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote: On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 10:59:51AM -0500, Andrew Pimlott wrote: But he will see that his vote wasn't counted, and punish you. How can you foil him, without him knowing you foiled him? How will he see that, exactly? There weren't any tallies posted at the end to let people verify things, and every correctly formatted, signed vote gets an ack, whether it actually gets counted or not. Maybe I missed something. Aren't you publicly posting the list of votes at the end, each with some token that allows the voter to verify his vote? The overriden vote won't be on the list. Getting both verifiability and deniability is difficult. Getting one or the other is quite possible, though, which was the point of the above. I have been assuming that you aren't willing to give up verifiability, and trying for some measure of deniability in addition. I think the scheme I suggested achieves this, as long as the enemy doesn't get to you before the vote. (If he does, you can still deny that you cast any particular vote, but you can't deny that you did not cast your vote with the id he told you to use.) Andrew -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Transcript of the Debate
On Thu, 2002-04-04 at 12:26, peter karlsson wrote:
Martin Schulze:
http://beta.hardware.no/~tfheen/debian-debate.{html,txt}
Hmmm, could someone please decrypt the aliases used so I can know who
says what?
Hmmm? See time stamp 15:05. After that they are called 'bdale',
'Branden', and 'Raphael'
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Re: Transcript of the Debate
On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 06:26:10PM +0100, peter karlsson wrote:
Martin Schulze:
http://beta.hardware.no/~tfheen/debian-debate.{html,txt}
Hmmm, could someone please decrypt the aliases used so I can know who
says what?
hmm,
Branden = Branden
Raphael = Raphaël
Bdale = Bdale
BenC = Ben
lilo = the guy from OPN
HTH,
Michael
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Re: Election status
On Thu, 2002-04-04 at 10:44, Anthony Towns wrote: Actually, it's pretty easy. As part of the vote, you have an order id, and whichever of these is highest, no matter what order the votes were received in, is accepted. So you give the bully the vote he wants, with `one bazillion' in the order field, and then submit the vote you really wanted with `one bazillion and one' in the order field. You need to be careful with your acks and naks in this case though. Yes, but how do you then allow someone to verify correct counting of the votes. If you drop the bully's vote from the list of counted votes, he'll be very ticked when he doesn't see the ID number there; if you don't drop it, how is someone other than the secretary to count the votes? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Election status
Hi ya cunning election frisbee-ers ! Do you think it is important that the vote-results webpage correctly shows coerced votes ? If a voter can be coerced to vote for someone she doesnt want to vote for, then she can be coerced to put a hard-to-find remote exploit in a package she maintains ! The correct response to coercion would be a confidential mail to dpl, i think. It is within dpl's competence to correct the outcome of a voting, if that outcome was caused by coercion. (eg by rounding up 3 non-voters, asking 2 of them to vote on the candidates that the coerced voter didnt vote for, and asking the third to vote on the candidate the coercee wanted to vote for.) (interesting frisbeeing topic, dont you think :-) P.S. Manoj never let out that Asterix voted for Raphael ! have fun ! Siward -- Ridiculous thought : Streaming video in Debian manpages. Hahaha, they dont even have color ! (-:-) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Election status
On Thu, 04 Apr 2002, Siward de Groot wrote: P.S. Manoj never let out that Asterix voted for Raphael ! While we're at it, it would be pretty cool to have a voting protocol where no one, not even the secretary, can find out other peoples' votes. Is such a thing possible? yours, peter This is not to say that I don't trust our current secretary, Manoj did a great job so far. Thanks a lot. -- PGP signed and encrypted | .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** messages preferred.| : :' : The universal | `. `' Operating System http://www.palfrader.org/ | `-http://www.debian.org/ msg01676/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Election status
On Thu, 2002-04-04 at 17:04, Peter Palfrader wrote: While we're at it, it would be pretty cool to have a voting protocol where no one, not even the secretary, can find out other peoples' votes. Is such a thing possible? Yes. See, for example, my followup to the vote verification thread. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Vote verification --- a futile exercise?
On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 12:11:32AM -0500, Jeff Licquia wrote: Also, the CTF may drop votes, and the voter cannot prove that (s)he actually voted properly; one would think, though, that if this happened enough to influence the election, enough of a public stink would be raised that the election results would be suspect. Hmm... the CTF can drop votes, but not after it has published the encrypted message containing the vote. And it doesn't get the decryption key for the vote until after all votes have been collected. So the CTF can drop votes, but it won't know whose votes they are or what the votes contain, so this is a suboptimal way of affecting the election results :) In addition, the voters involved can raise a stink _before_ the votes are counted, because they can refuse to send in their private keys until the matter is investigated. Richard Braakman -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Vote verification --- a futile exercise?
On Thu, 2002-04-04 at 17:53, Richard Braakman wrote: On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 12:11:32AM -0500, Jeff Licquia wrote: Also, the CTF may drop votes, and the voter cannot prove that (s)he actually voted properly; one would think, though, that if this happened enough to influence the election, enough of a public stink would be raised that the election results would be suspect. Hmm... the CTF can drop votes, but not after it has published the encrypted message containing the vote. And it doesn't get the decryption key for the vote until after all votes have been collected. So the CTF can drop votes, but it won't know whose votes they are or what the votes contain, so this is a suboptimal way of affecting the election results :) Not necessarily. Consider this election, for instance; since Raphael is the only European and only non-American candidate, this implies that he will have greater support in Europe and areas considered anti-American. If Manoj happened to want to influence the election against Raphael, he could plot out timezones and look at times when voters from those areas were more or less likely to vote (say, when local time is 5 am versus 7 pm) and randomly drop votes to coincide with times that pro-European/anti-American voters were most likely to vote and pro-American voters least likely. In a close race, this could affect the outcome. [Again, not that Manoj would ever do such a vile thing.] In addition, the voters involved can raise a stink _before_ the votes are counted, because they can refuse to send in their private keys until the matter is investigated. That's true; I hadn't considered that possibility. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Election status
On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 02:38:21PM -0500, Anthony DeRobertis wrote: On Thu, 2002-04-04 at 10:44, Anthony Towns wrote: Actually, it's pretty easy. As part of the vote, you have an order id, and whichever of these is highest, no matter what order the votes were received in, is accepted. So you give the bully the vote he wants, with `one bazillion' in the order field, and then submit the vote you really wanted with `one bazillion and one' in the order field. You need to be careful with your acks and naks in this case though. Yes, but how do you then allow someone to verify correct counting of the votes. Like I've said a few times, I'm not convinced it's possible to setup a voting system that: (a) doesn't provide receipts you can use to prove who you voted for (b) allows you to verify your vote was counted correctly (c) allows you to change your vote Look back through the thread for some approaches at avoiding two out of three of those. You'd have to research the literature if you wanted to find a more convincing answer about doing all three. You'll note that real life secret ballots only provide (a) and the first few DPL elections provided (c) with some attempt at (a), and last year's provided (b) and (c). Cheers, aj -- Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/ I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred. ``BAM! Science triumphs again!'' -- http://www.angryflower.com/vegeta.gif msg01681/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
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Re: Election status
Anthony == Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Actually, it's pretty easy. As part of the vote, you have an order id, and whichever of these is highest, no matter what order the votes were received in, is accepted. So you give the bully the vote he wants, with `one bazillion' in the order field, and then submit the vote you really wanted with `one bazillion and one' in the order field. You need to be careful with your acks and naks in this case though. But he will see that his vote wasn't counted, and punish you. How can you foil him, without him knowing you foiled him? Anthony How will he see that, exactly? There weren't any tallies Anthony posted at the end to let people verify things, and every Anthony correctly formatted, signed vote gets an ack, whether it Anthony actually gets counted or not. Well, this year tally sheets shall indeed be presented, so that shan't work. If someone is indeed being coerced, please send me (or a DPL candidate other than the one you are being forced to vote for, or all of us) a signed message stating that. We'll see what can be done. manoj -- There are no children to take refuge in them, no father or any other relative. When a man is seized by that terminator, Death, there is no taking refuge in family. 288 Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Election status
Hi, Along with the ballot processing statistics available at http://master.debian.org/~srivasta/leader2002.html, we now have a running list of people who have (successfully) voted in the election at http://master.debian.org/~srivasta/leader2002_voters.txt. The list is in alphabetical order of debian ids, and has a convenient index to ease determining the number of people who voted (now people have more time to check the lists) manoj -- You don't really understand something until you understand it in more than one way. Marvin Minsky Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Election status
On Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 07:49:37PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: Andrew == Andrew Pimlott [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Andrew How about: Andrew - When you vote, you additionally generate a random id and submit it Andrewwith the vote. Andrew - In the vote list, the secretary publishes the id next to the vote. Andrew You can still verify your vote, but you have no way to prove that you Andrew chose a particular id, so you can't convince anyone that a particular Andrew vote is yours. This is in no way better than the scheme we have coded and working right now. If someone can force you to give up your token, they can force you to divulge your random id; and if the id is next to the vote, you are sunk (The trick is, of course, that I'll get your ID from you before the vote tally sheet is published, so you can't fake it). I grant you that it is susceptible to someone who gets to you before the vote. This seems very hard to defend: the enemy can just insist that you send him your signed vote, and let him submit it. To beat this, you would have to be able to revoke the coerced vote in a way that makes the enemy think the vote he sent was counted, but makes you certain that yours was counted and his was not. Too hard for me. I think my scheme has the (slight?) advantage that it is not susceptible to someone who gets to you after the vote. The existing scheme allows you to prove (willingly) your vote to someone you meet after the vote. And, it allows an enemy who gets to you after the vote to coerce you to reveal your vote--unless you can convince him that you have destroyed and forgotten your confirmation message. (BTW, I'm not suggesting you change the scheme. Just exploring ideas.) In one way it is worse: What if 50 people choose Mickey Flood as their randomg ID? Obviously, the server rejects duplicate id's (and forces the voter to resubmit). Ok, there is a slight problem: if the secretary is crooked, and two people submit the same id and the same vote, he can forge a vote. But if people are told to choose their id's randomly, the chance can be made negligible. Andrew -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Election status
On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 10:10:39AM -0500, Andrew Pimlott wrote: I grant you that it is susceptible to someone who gets to you before the vote. This seems very hard to defend: the enemy can just insist that you send him your signed vote, and let him submit it. To beat this, you would have to be able to revoke the coerced vote in a way that makes the enemy think the vote he sent was counted, but makes you certain that yours was counted and his was not. Too hard for me. Actually, it's pretty easy. As part of the vote, you have an order id, and whichever of these is highest, no matter what order the votes were received in, is accepted. So you give the bully the vote he wants, with `one bazillion' in the order field, and then submit the vote you really wanted with `one bazillion and one' in the order field. You need to be careful with your acks and naks in this case though. Obviously, the server rejects duplicate id's (and forces the voter to resubmit). Ok, there is a slight problem: if the secretary is crooked, and two people submit the same id and the same vote, he can forge a vote. But if people are told to choose their id's randomly, the chance can be made negligible. It's trivial for Debian users to generate high quality 128 bit random numbers, so it's also trivial to avoid collisions with something so near to certainty it's not worth worrying about. Cheers, aj -- Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/ I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred. Vote [1] Bdale! pgpf05l18fkef.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Election status
On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 01:44:13AM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote: On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 10:10:39AM -0500, Andrew Pimlott wrote: I grant you that it is susceptible to someone who gets to you before the vote. This seems very hard to defend: the enemy can just insist that you send him your signed vote, and let him submit it. To beat this, you would have to be able to revoke the coerced vote in a way that makes the enemy think the vote he sent was counted, but makes you certain that yours was counted and his was not. Too hard for me. Actually, it's pretty easy. As part of the vote, you have an order id, and whichever of these is highest, no matter what order the votes were received in, is accepted. So you give the bully the vote he wants, with `one bazillion' in the order field, and then submit the vote you really wanted with `one bazillion and one' in the order field. You need to be careful with your acks and naks in this case though. But he will see that his vote wasn't counted, and punish you. How can you foil him, without him knowing you foiled him? Andrew -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Election status
On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 10:59:51AM -0500, Andrew Pimlott wrote: On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 01:44:13AM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote: On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 10:10:39AM -0500, Andrew Pimlott wrote: I grant you that it is susceptible to someone who gets to you before the vote. This seems very hard to defend: the enemy can just insist that you send him your signed vote, and let him submit it. To beat this, you would have to be able to revoke the coerced vote in a way that makes the enemy think the vote he sent was counted, but makes you certain that yours was counted and his was not. Too hard for me. Actually, it's pretty easy. As part of the vote, you have an order id, and whichever of these is highest, no matter what order the votes were received in, is accepted. So you give the bully the vote he wants, with `one bazillion' in the order field, and then submit the vote you really wanted with `one bazillion and one' in the order field. You need to be careful with your acks and naks in this case though. But he will see that his vote wasn't counted, and punish you. How can you foil him, without him knowing you foiled him? How will he see that, exactly? There weren't any tallies posted at the end to let people verify things, and every correctly formatted, signed vote gets an ack, whether it actually gets counted or not. Getting both verifiability and deniability is difficult. Getting one or the other is quite possible, though, which was the point of the above. Cheers, aj -- Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/ I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred. Vote [1] Bdale! pgpc8vY1Z911j.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Transcript of the Debate
Martin Schulze:
http://beta.hardware.no/~tfheen/debian-debate.{html,txt}
Hmmm, could someone please decrypt the aliases used so I can know who
says what?
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Re: Election status
On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:07:56AM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote: On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 10:59:51AM -0500, Andrew Pimlott wrote: But he will see that his vote wasn't counted, and punish you. How can you foil him, without him knowing you foiled him? How will he see that, exactly? There weren't any tallies posted at the end to let people verify things, and every correctly formatted, signed vote gets an ack, whether it actually gets counted or not. Maybe I missed something. Aren't you publicly posting the list of votes at the end, each with some token that allows the voter to verify his vote? The overriden vote won't be on the list. Getting both verifiability and deniability is difficult. Getting one or the other is quite possible, though, which was the point of the above. I have been assuming that you aren't willing to give up verifiability, and trying for some measure of deniability in addition. I think the scheme I suggested achieves this, as long as the enemy doesn't get to you before the vote. (If he does, you can still deny that you cast any particular vote, but you can't deny that you did not cast your vote with the id he told you to use.) Andrew -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Election status
On Thu, 2002-04-04 at 10:44, Anthony Towns wrote: Actually, it's pretty easy. As part of the vote, you have an order id, and whichever of these is highest, no matter what order the votes were received in, is accepted. So you give the bully the vote he wants, with `one bazillion' in the order field, and then submit the vote you really wanted with `one bazillion and one' in the order field. You need to be careful with your acks and naks in this case though. Yes, but how do you then allow someone to verify correct counting of the votes. If you drop the bully's vote from the list of counted votes, he'll be very ticked when he doesn't see the ID number there; if you don't drop it, how is someone other than the secretary to count the votes? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Transcript of the Debate
On Thu, 2002-04-04 at 12:26, peter karlsson wrote:
Martin Schulze:
http://beta.hardware.no/~tfheen/debian-debate.{html,txt}
Hmmm, could someone please decrypt the aliases used so I can know who
says what?
Hmmm? See time stamp 15:05. After that they are called 'bdale',
'Branden', and 'Raphael'
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Re: Election status
Hi ya cunning election frisbee-ers ! Do you think it is important that the vote-results webpage correctly shows coerced votes ? If a voter can be coerced to vote for someone she doesnt want to vote for, then she can be coerced to put a hard-to-find remote exploit in a package she maintains ! The correct response to coercion would be a confidential mail to dpl, i think. It is within dpl's competence to correct the outcome of a voting, if that outcome was caused by coercion. (eg by rounding up 3 non-voters, asking 2 of them to vote on the candidates that the coerced voter didnt vote for, and asking the third to vote on the candidate the coercee wanted to vote for.) (interesting frisbeeing topic, dont you think :-) P.S. Manoj never let out that Asterix voted for Raphael ! have fun ! Siward -- Ridiculous thought : Streaming video in Debian manpages. Hahaha, they dont even have color ! (-:-) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Election status
On Thu, 04 Apr 2002, Siward de Groot wrote: P.S. Manoj never let out that Asterix voted for Raphael ! While we're at it, it would be pretty cool to have a voting protocol where no one, not even the secretary, can find out other peoples' votes. Is such a thing possible? yours, peter This is not to say that I don't trust our current secretary, Manoj did a great job so far. Thanks a lot. -- PGP signed and encrypted | .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** messages preferred.| : :' : The universal | `. `' Operating System http://www.palfrader.org/ | `-http://www.debian.org/ pgperEcgJOfpl.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Election status
On Thu, 2002-04-04 at 17:04, Peter Palfrader wrote: While we're at it, it would be pretty cool to have a voting protocol where no one, not even the secretary, can find out other peoples' votes. Is such a thing possible? Yes. See, for example, my followup to the vote verification thread. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Vote verification --- a futile exercise?
On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 12:11:32AM -0500, Jeff Licquia wrote: Also, the CTF may drop votes, and the voter cannot prove that (s)he actually voted properly; one would think, though, that if this happened enough to influence the election, enough of a public stink would be raised that the election results would be suspect. Hmm... the CTF can drop votes, but not after it has published the encrypted message containing the vote. And it doesn't get the decryption key for the vote until after all votes have been collected. So the CTF can drop votes, but it won't know whose votes they are or what the votes contain, so this is a suboptimal way of affecting the election results :) In addition, the voters involved can raise a stink _before_ the votes are counted, because they can refuse to send in their private keys until the matter is investigated. Richard Braakman -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Vote verification --- a futile exercise?
On Thu, 2002-04-04 at 17:53, Richard Braakman wrote: On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 12:11:32AM -0500, Jeff Licquia wrote: Also, the CTF may drop votes, and the voter cannot prove that (s)he actually voted properly; one would think, though, that if this happened enough to influence the election, enough of a public stink would be raised that the election results would be suspect. Hmm... the CTF can drop votes, but not after it has published the encrypted message containing the vote. And it doesn't get the decryption key for the vote until after all votes have been collected. So the CTF can drop votes, but it won't know whose votes they are or what the votes contain, so this is a suboptimal way of affecting the election results :) Not necessarily. Consider this election, for instance; since Raphael is the only European and only non-American candidate, this implies that he will have greater support in Europe and areas considered anti-American. If Manoj happened to want to influence the election against Raphael, he could plot out timezones and look at times when voters from those areas were more or less likely to vote (say, when local time is 5 am versus 7 pm) and randomly drop votes to coincide with times that pro-European/anti-American voters were most likely to vote and pro-American voters least likely. In a close race, this could affect the outcome. [Again, not that Manoj would ever do such a vile thing.] In addition, the voters involved can raise a stink _before_ the votes are counted, because they can refuse to send in their private keys until the matter is investigated. That's true; I hadn't considered that possibility. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Election status
On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 02:38:21PM -0500, Anthony DeRobertis wrote: On Thu, 2002-04-04 at 10:44, Anthony Towns wrote: Actually, it's pretty easy. As part of the vote, you have an order id, and whichever of these is highest, no matter what order the votes were received in, is accepted. So you give the bully the vote he wants, with `one bazillion' in the order field, and then submit the vote you really wanted with `one bazillion and one' in the order field. You need to be careful with your acks and naks in this case though. Yes, but how do you then allow someone to verify correct counting of the votes. Like I've said a few times, I'm not convinced it's possible to setup a voting system that: (a) doesn't provide receipts you can use to prove who you voted for (b) allows you to verify your vote was counted correctly (c) allows you to change your vote Look back through the thread for some approaches at avoiding two out of three of those. You'd have to research the literature if you wanted to find a more convincing answer about doing all three. You'll note that real life secret ballots only provide (a) and the first few DPL elections provided (c) with some attempt at (a), and last year's provided (b) and (c). Cheers, aj -- Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/ I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred. ``BAM! Science triumphs again!'' -- http://www.angryflower.com/vegeta.gif pgpCsgFQuMOxd.pgp Description: PGP signature
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Re: Election status
Anthony == Anthony Towns aj@azure.humbug.org.au writes: Actually, it's pretty easy. As part of the vote, you have an order id, and whichever of these is highest, no matter what order the votes were received in, is accepted. So you give the bully the vote he wants, with `one bazillion' in the order field, and then submit the vote you really wanted with `one bazillion and one' in the order field. You need to be careful with your acks and naks in this case though. But he will see that his vote wasn't counted, and punish you. How can you foil him, without him knowing you foiled him? Anthony How will he see that, exactly? There weren't any tallies Anthony posted at the end to let people verify things, and every Anthony correctly formatted, signed vote gets an ack, whether it Anthony actually gets counted or not. Well, this year tally sheets shall indeed be presented, so that shan't work. If someone is indeed being coerced, please send me (or a DPL candidate other than the one you are being forced to vote for, or all of us) a signed message stating that. We'll see what can be done. manoj -- There are no children to take refuge in them, no father or any other relative. When a man is seized by that terminator, Death, there is no taking refuge in family. 288 Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
