[libreoffice-design] Re: LO Writer UI Analysis
Hi all, mirek2, I love your mockup [1]. Also those Icons are not Tango. Didn't know those existed. This, to me, looks like the direction LO should be heading in general. Nice clean and easy to grasp structure. Easy to say, hard to put into action. Can't wait to see this stuff happening. [1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Toolbars [2] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Principles [3] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Mirek2#Responsive_Layout -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/LO-Writer-UI-Analysis-tp4032977p4033396.html Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Easy Hacks
Hi everyone, I've started collecting some proposals for future UX-related easy hacks, and I'd like to turn them into actual easy hacks. I'd also like to give an opportunity to others to propose easy hacks, so that we can produce a set of hacks in one go. Here's the process I propose: - If you have a UX-related easy hack to propose, put it on your user page on the wiki. Explain both your proposal and the reasoning behind it. - A proposal may be rejected if it's argued to be counterproductive, against our principles, or too complex for an easy hack. It should also be relatively developer-ready and shouldn't require a long design process (a short discussion is fine, though). - We'll shortly discuss the proposals both on the Saturday IRC chat as well as give time for people who can't attend until the end of Tuesday (UTC time). -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Easy Hacks
Hi Mirek, good idea! I have two proposals on my Wiki page: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Sam_m Thanks for considering! Samuel -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Easy Hacks
Hi Mirek, Am 31.01.2013 15:00, schrieb Mirek M.: Hi everyone, I've started collecting some proposals for future UX-related easy hacks, and I'd like to turn them into actual easy hacks. I'd also like to give an opportunity to others to propose easy hacks, so that we can produce a set of hacks in one go. Here's the process I propose: - If you have a UX-related easy hack to propose, put it on your user page on the wiki. Explain both your proposal and the reasoning behind it. Some hints about licenses of easy hacks necessary? -- Grüße k-j -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Easy Hacks
On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 5:06 PM, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol o...@sophia-louise.de wrote: Hi Mirek, Am 31.01.2013 15:00, schrieb Mirek M.: Hi everyone, I've started collecting some proposals for future UX-related easy hacks, and I'd like to turn them into actual easy hacks. I'd also like to give an opportunity to others to propose easy hacks, so that we can produce a set of hacks in one go. Here's the process I propose: - If you have a UX-related easy hack to propose, put it on your user page on the wiki. Explain both your proposal and the reasoning behind it. Some hints about licenses of easy hacks necessary? Here's the wiki page for Wiki Hacks: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Easy_Hacks . All the code should MPL/LGPLv3+ dual licensed. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] 4 4.0 branding polls and votes
Sorry to interfere but... WTF? Where are we supposed to vote? I can see currently 4 different offers and options: -- replying to some msg in this list -- contributing to an online poll papillon -- another online poll at googledocs (WTF? again) -- a poll through a blog I won't tell my preference, but it obviously goes to some Free tool :) Well... 4 is 3 too many, don't you think so? As all this can only lead to frustration, I'd suggest to start all that again from scratch on a dedicated page somewhere with clear and precise instructions. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Icon help for LibreOffice v.4.0 features website page
Le 31/01/2013 00:13, Marc Paré a écrit : I am almost finished with the Features page due to be unveiled to the website public on the LibreOffice v.4.0 unveiling day in Feb[1]. WRT the Logo toolbar, I just realized right now that the logo word refers to the Logo language. Till now I had understood logotype. I think some others could have the same flooding imagination, thus specifying Logo language instead of Logo might be clearer. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Icon help for LibreOffice v.4.0 features website page
Bonjour et merci Jean-François, Le 2013-01-31 12:59, Jean-Francois Nifenecker a écrit : Le 31/01/2013 00:13, Marc Paré a écrit : I am almost finished with the Features page due to be unveiled to the website public on the LibreOffice v.4.0 unveiling day in Feb[1]. WRT the Logo toolbar, I just realized right now that the logo word refers to the Logo language. Till now I had understood logotype. I think some others could have the same flooding imagination, thus specifying Logo language instead of Logo might be clearer. Ah! yes, makes sense. In fact if you follow the link on the section it takes you to a series of articles that discuss LibreLogo. === Maybe change the initial sentence for that section: [OLD] Logo toolbar and interpreter (László Németh, help in integration: András Tímár). [NEW] LibreLogo vector graphics language: Logo toolbar and interpreter (László Németh, help in integration: András Tímár). === ALSO change: [OLD] Logo examples on templates.libreoffice.org: [NEW] LibreLogo examples on http://extensions.libreoffice.org/extension-center/librelogo:; This way people will would be redirected to the proper LibreLogo extension rather than wondering if why it is on the template site. === How does that sound? Marc -- Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com http://www.parEntreprise.com parEntreprise.com Supports OpenDocument Formats (ODF) parEntreprise.com Supports http://www.LibreOffice.org -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] 4 4.0 branding polls and votes
It's every thing on Google Docs actually, it's been created to start from scratch ^^ I now it's not free, but it's there ! Le jeu. 31 janv. 2013 19:06:20 CET, Jean-Francois Nifenecker a écrit : Sorry to interfere but... WTF? Where are we supposed to vote? I can see currently 4 different offers and options: -- replying to some msg in this list -- contributing to an online poll papillon -- another online poll at googledocs (WTF? again) -- a poll through a blog I won't tell my preference, but it obviously goes to some Free tool :) Well... 4 is 3 too many, don't you think so? As all this can only lead to frustration, I'd suggest to start all that again from scratch on a dedicated page somewhere with clear and precise instructions. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] 4 4.0 branding polls and votes
Hi Jean-Francois, On Thu, 31 Jan, 2013 at 7:06 , Jean-Francois Nifenecker jean-francois.nifenec...@laposte.net wrote: Sorry to interfere but... WTF? Where are we supposed to vote? I can see currently 4 different offers and options: Please use this: -- another online poll at googledocs (WTF? again) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsGS28t6YMF3dHFrTm9hMzZVNk9hNEZMN0NSbV9ZbXc I know it is confusing – but people tried to find better places to hold the poll. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: LO Writer UI Analysis
Hi Björn, On 30 January 2013 20:18, Björn Balazs bjoern.bal...@user-prompt.com wrote: You haven't: We did an expert rating (that what I wrote - and to add some more flesh to it:) with two experts (Heiko and me) working independently and discussing were categorization differed. Not sure if you're saying that I haven't looked careful enough or that you haven't explained it well enough. In any case, I wasn't so much interested in the who? as I was in the how?. So yes, you are right - there are issues to the validity. Take it as I said before: it is an indicator for the mentioned hypothesis and There are issues with the validity of your results/the methodology but you still want to use them as an indicator for something? Nevertheless they are valid - mostly because people re-did what was done before using (slightly) different methodology. That mostly thing is mostly the problem here: no one has tested your study with proper methodology so far. Back to our study: all raw data is freely available. Sure. I really hope to get some support here - we need to go ahead based on research (as good as we can). You see in this and other threads, what happens when we all just talk about our own preferences... Emphatically, I support what you do (I believe I wrote that before) – I just don't like this specific part of your analysis. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] LO Writer UI Analysis
Hi Thibaut, Heiko On 29 January 2013 23:04, Thibaut Brandscheid randal...@web.de wrote: Hi Astron Thanks for your detailed answer. I can't promise to do the data analysis in the wiki but will have a look at it. Thanks! I have uploaded the file to http://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/OOo31_Usage_Feedback_Data.ods (To my defense, I actually did upload it yesterday.) LO is a huge project and I assume that it's sometimes complicated to reach consensus on UI changes. People like what they already know... an old problem for all lateral thinkers. Well, reaching (complete) consensus is not actually necessary – finding a developer and getting some sort of lazy consensus is enough. The problem, for the most part lies in the former. I focus on Writer UI stuff here, but I have many other points on how LO could be improved. The longer I think about it - the more I will find. The problem is time and to channelize it in a way it is potentially useful to you. Since Mirek already linked you to some – have a look at our whiteboards and see if you think that process works for you. Most of the time, I open Writer to write stuff, so highlighting spelling errors makes sense. When I'm done with writing, there is no need to recheck the whole text - it's already done. Second argument, browser has only an auto-spell-checker tool, too. Ah, ok. So you do in fact want some sort of reading mode? If I open a file in another language to read it I sometimes deactivate the auto-spell-checking to get rid of the red underlines below every word in the text. Btw. auto language recognition would be suuch a great feature. Not completely sure, but I think we already have some piece of code that tries to make educated guesses to fill the context menu. Anyway, I agree. ... that are all more power user use-cases. Right, but everyone can cater to basic users – and it seems we are already losing this fight against the likes of Google Docs, not to mention Office 365. So, supporting power users is one way to stay relevant, I guess. The 'Styles and Formatting' button kind of duplicates and enhances the drop-down-menu next to it. I guess that an average user will be completely happy with only the 'ApplyStyle' drop-down-menu and will not even notice the removal of the 'Styles and Formatting' button. Probably true. 1g - Remove the button labeled 'Default' in the lower left corner. Its label is unclear and the button adds no value to the UI (remember average user point of view). This is a quick style switcher. Arguably, either this combo box or the style button should probably go in the longer run. The button is confusing, why do I have to double click it, whereas a single click opens the language menu next to it? Having a quick way to access the page settings is nice but it is too hidden, so nearly nobody will notice. First of all, sorry I misunderstood you: I thought you were speaking of the style combobox in the Formatting toolbar instead of something in the status bar. Also, yes, I agree that it should better go elsewhere where it seems closer/more related to the page. 1i - Remove the small paper icons left from the zoom panel. I don't get what it is useful for after trying them several times and guess that normal users would struggle here too. These can be quite useful. They are for enabling book and multiple pages mode – I assume you tried them with a single page in the window? Two pages with a page break in between. We could improve the feedback here, I guess, e.g. by showing one or multiple ghost pages when enabling book/multiple pages mode. I tried it now with a longer document and it still doesn't make much sense to me ^^ When using the multiple-page-mode you have to use massively the scroll bars - feels broken. You mean the book mode, I assume (first page on the right)? Guess it's hard to make it look like a book layout without showing the two pages next to each other. :) The multi-page mode otoh adapts to the size of the screen. In any case, I just noticed, these buttons lack any sort of tooltip – definitely a bug. 1k - Move the 'Align Right' and 'Justified' text formatting button into [...] On a small screen, they get cut off right now - that's a massive UX problem because one of the Writers main functions gets hidden too easily. Agree, that's quite a problem. You could pay someone to get the boring stuff done - using donation money. When donating money, it's nice to know that it helps LO, but you don't see really what is done with it - LO works as it has in the past. The donation money is currently mostly used to pay for web servers/hosting, to bring people together through hackfests/the annual conference, the foundation etc. Using it to pay otherwise volunteer contributors could be a bad idea, because it can be detrimental to the community at large. (Why is this person paid, but not I?, Why should I contribute again if I
[libreoffice-design] Re: LO Writer UI Analysis
Wolfgang Keller wrote MS has always been at the antipode of ergonomics. And they keep moving in the *wrong* direction. Ribbons ... are just the latest cerebral flatulances emanating from their product managers' brains. Lol! BTW: The younger (LO) users are the more they accept Ribbons [1]. Ribbon controls intend to show all at once, as Astron says. Additionally, MS wants to get rid of the main menu for touch screen use. The trade-off is that some, seldom used function were menuized, ie. placed into pulldown controls. But those menus thwart the idea of a toolbar: fast access to a few functions. The idea behind is nevertheless worth to discuss, but for the purpose of strategical decisions (where LO wants to go) and not singular improvements (simpler toolbar). [1] http://user-prompt.com/libreoffice-user-research-results-vol-4/ Wolfgang Keller wrote It has been proven over and over again that separator lines do *NOT* separate. They effectively do the *opposite*, besides adding elements that are just confusing for the eyes. Please prove this statement. At least separator's appearance should be defined by the theme. Stefan Knorr (Astron)-2 wrote I have uploaded the file to http://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/OOo31_Usage_Feedback_Data.ods Thanks a lot! -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/LO-Writer-UI-Analysis-tp4032977p4033574.html Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: LO Writer UI Analysis
On 01/31/2013 04:08 PM, Heiko Tietze wrote: Wolfgang Keller wrote MS has always been at the antipode of ergonomics. And they keep moving in the *wrong* direction. Ribbons ... are just the latest cerebral flatulances emanating from their product managers' brains. Lol! BTW: The younger (LO) users are the more they accept Ribbons [1]. Ribbon controls intend to show all at once, as Astron says. Additionally, MS wants to get rid of the main menu for touch screen use. The trade-off is that some, seldom used function were menuized, ie. placed into pulldown controls. But those menus thwart the idea of a toolbar: fast access to a few functions. The idea behind is nevertheless worth to discuss, but for the purpose of strategical decisions (where LO wants to go) and not singular improvements (simpler toolbar). [1] http://user-prompt.com/libreoffice-user-research-results-vol-4/ A question about ribbons - Is there any data differentiating the type of user and their preferences? My thought is that users who heavily use software may prefer menus over ribbons while those who do not use the software much prefer ribbons. And this general trend would true for all types of software. The age may be skewing the results and including more casual users in the younger cohort. The 50+ users did not grow up with computers and many of these casual users do not like to use computers at all and probably would never use anything they did not use at work (eg Windows and MS Office). I find the personality of the user vs ribbon or menu interesting. Wolfgang Keller wrote It has been proven over and over again that separator lines do *NOT* separate. They effectively do the *opposite*, besides adding elements that are just confusing for the eyes. Please prove this statement. At least separator's appearance should be defined by the theme. Stefan Knorr (Astron)-2 wrote I have uploaded the file to http://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/OOo31_Usage_Feedback_Data.ods Thanks a lot! -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/LO-Writer-UI-Analysis-tp4032977p4033574.html Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: LO Writer UI Analysis
Jay Lozier wrote My thought is that users who heavily use software may prefer menus over ribbons while those who do not use the software much prefer ribbons. That argumentation is too simple. Means of self rated expertise from 1=beginner, 2=average user, to 3=expert (no one wants to be a beginner, but when do you become an expert?) grouped by ribbon vs. toolbar (semantic differential; first value agree totally with ribbons last with toolbar, all other between): 2.739712 2.800813 2.78 2.757752 2.736434 2.738717 Of course there are some indicators that support your idea, like power user of writer (toolbars are preferred) vs. user of impress (ribbons have attraction). Breakdown Table of Descriptive Statistics (libreoffice) N=4275 Writer CalcImpress 3.9262303.0317622.421107 3.8836273.1407312.456022 3.8429423.1292252.397614 3.8858803.2901352.214700 3.8885453.2585142.221362 4.0759193.3795972.291815 Sorry for simple analysis and sloppy output. But calculation and better presentation needs some time. And it's late now ;-). -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/LO-Writer-UI-Analysis-tp4032977p4033600.html Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
