Re: [libreoffice-design] Sidebar Survey

[Cor Nouws]

Heiko Tietze wrote on 23-02-16 10:43:

> http://pad.documentfoundation.org/p/UX_Sidebar-Survey
> 
> Please take a look for completeness and if the intro text makes sense.

Thanks! I especially appreciate the clarity of /information in the itro.
I added some suggestions / notes to the pad.

Ciao,
Cor


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Sidebar Survey

[Steve Edmonds]

On 2016-02-26 11:33, Heiko Tietze wrote:

On Freitag, 26. Februar 2016 11:06:21 CET Steve Edmonds wrote:

On 2016-02-26 10:41, Yousuf 'Jay' Philips wrote:

There isnt a duplication if you choose not to use the sidebar...

Agree with the easy switching. I work mostly ...

Before we go into detail, this thread aims to setup a survey. Personally, I
think Pedro's last suggestion makes sense. The question is about the future
and not how it works today. Maybe we add another option like "depends on
situation". So what do you both think about it, disregarding the own workflow?
That sounds good. I suppose by considering different use scenarios and 
workflows helps to develop questions that covers these situations.


On Donnerstag, 25. Februar 2016 18:46:39 CET Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:

"When selecting an object (like a chart, text box or shape) do you want to
have its formatting controls at either toolbar or sidebar?"
( ) Toolbar
( ) Sidebar



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Re: [libreoffice-design] Sidebar Survey

[Heiko Tietze]

On Freitag, 26. Februar 2016 11:06:21 CET Steve Edmonds wrote:
> On 2016-02-26 10:41, Yousuf 'Jay' Philips wrote:
> > There isnt a duplication if you choose not to use the sidebar...
> Agree with the easy switching. I work mostly ...

Before we go into detail, this thread aims to setup a survey. Personally, I 
think Pedro's last suggestion makes sense. The question is about the future 
and not how it works today. Maybe we add another option like "depends on 
situation". So what do you both think about it, disregarding the own workflow?

On Donnerstag, 25. Februar 2016 18:46:39 CET Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
> "When selecting an object (like a chart, text box or shape) do you want to
> have its formatting controls at either toolbar or sidebar?"
> ( ) Toolbar
> ( ) Sidebar
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Sidebar Survey

[Steve Edmonds]

Hi.

On 2016-02-26 10:41, Yousuf 'Jay' Philips wrote:

Hi Pedro,

On 02/25/2016 04:34 PM, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
Anyway, I would just like to make a proposal for changing one aspect 
of the

behaviour of the Sidebar and toolbar. Right now on LO 5.1 when a certain
object like charts or pictures or symbols is selected there is a
duplication of formatting options that appear on the Sidebar and also on
the toolbars.


There isnt a duplication if you choose not to use the sidebar or not 
use the properties tab of the sidebar. Many users choose not to use 
the sidebar or are at a screen resolution that doesnt make sense to 
use it (e.g. 1024x768). For users who prefer/want to use the sidebar, 
we should make it easy for them to switch to a sidebar mode (tdf#92220).


Agree with the easy switching. I work mostly with 2 or 3 documents side 
by side and the sidebar is a hindrance. If there is no way to continue 
without use of the side bar (styles and formatting?) there should be a 
hotkey for the side bar and side bar coming and going should not cause 
the application window size to change. Currently there is one styles 
panel that floats about for my 3 documents, it would be wasted space to 
have 3 styles panels open at once but a hotkey to open the panel as 
required could work.

IMO, when selecting an object the formatting properties for that object
should appear only in the Sidebar (as is the case even in Microsoft 
Office

2013 where they have a sidebar of sorts).


MSO keeps the basic formatting properties in the ribbon and the 
advanced stuff would open in a dialog and recently a few of those 
dialogs have been replaced with a left side panel. (e.g. select a 
shape and you are given the Drawing Tools Format ribbon tab and users 
can open a Format Shape side panel to modify all the shape's 
properties more easily)


  And not have the same commands showing up also in the toolbar 
cluttering

it (also the Sidebar invariably shows more commands than the toolbar and
allows for easier understanding of what each command is since they 
usually

also include text and category names.


Unfortunately the sidebar isnt complete enough to get rid of all the 
toolbars. e.g. table toolbar, outline toolbar, drawing object 
properties toolbar, ...


Also, just as in Impress the text formating toolbar disappeared since 
most
of its functions are present in the Sidebar I would propose to remove 
the

text Formatting toolbar in Writer and Calc to have coherence between the
three main modules of LO and because those functions are duplicated 
in the

Sidebar and toolbar.


With Impress, it has always had a side panel that was open and when 
the new sidebar was integrated in 4.2, it made the case for the hiding 
of the contextual formatting toolbars by default a good choice, 
especially when users want to see more of their slide. Writer and Calc 
arent in the same boat, but Draw was so it was changed to a sidebar 
mode by default.


Yousuf




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Re: [libreoffice-design] Sidebar Survey

[Yousuf 'Jay' Philips]

Hi Pedro,

On 02/25/2016 04:34 PM, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:

Anyway, I would just like to make a proposal for changing one aspect of the
behaviour of the Sidebar and toolbar. Right now on LO 5.1 when a certain
object like charts or pictures or symbols is selected there is a
duplication of formatting options that appear on the Sidebar and also on
the toolbars.


There isnt a duplication if you choose not to use the sidebar or not use 
the properties tab of the sidebar. Many users choose not to use the 
sidebar or are at a screen resolution that doesnt make sense to use it 
(e.g. 1024x768). For users who prefer/want to use the sidebar, we should 
make it easy for them to switch to a sidebar mode (tdf#92220).



IMO, when selecting an object the formatting properties for that object
should appear only in the Sidebar (as is the case even in Microsoft Office
2013 where they have a sidebar of sorts).


MSO keeps the basic formatting properties in the ribbon and the advanced 
stuff would open in a dialog and recently a few of those dialogs have 
been replaced with a left side panel. (e.g. select a shape and you are 
given the Drawing Tools Format ribbon tab and users can open a Format 
Shape side panel to modify all the shape's properties more easily)



  And not have the same commands showing up also in the toolbar cluttering
it (also the Sidebar invariably shows more commands than the toolbar and
allows for easier understanding of what each command is since they usually
also include text and category names.


Unfortunately the sidebar isnt complete enough to get rid of all the 
toolbars. e.g. table toolbar, outline toolbar, drawing object properties 
toolbar, ...



Also, just as in Impress the text formating toolbar disappeared since most
of its functions are present in the Sidebar I would propose to remove the
text Formatting toolbar in Writer and Calc to have coherence between the
three main modules of LO and because those functions are duplicated in the
Sidebar and toolbar.


With Impress, it has always had a side panel that was open and when the 
new sidebar was integrated in 4.2, it made the case for the hiding of 
the contextual formatting toolbars by default a good choice, especially 
when users want to see more of their slide. Writer and Calc arent in the 
same boat, but Draw was so it was changed to a sidebar mode by default.


Yousuf

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Sidebar Survey

[Yousuf 'Jay' Philips]

Hi Dave,

On 02/23/2016 05:18 PM, Dave wrote:

For those of us that loath and detest the IBM sidebar, only marginally
less than the MSO ribbon, please add one more option, OR replace the
existing "( ) No, I tried it but prefer toolbars." option, in the first
question with:
( ) Yes, Only because I am forced to use it.


I included that option in the question, as many users have tried out the 
sidebar and choose not to use it when it comes to properties. Users who 
prefer toolbars arent forced to use the sidebar. Yes the styles & 
formatting and gallery are now exclusively in the sidebar, but users can 
open it and close it just like before it was in the sidebar.


Also, even before the IBM sidebar came into LO, LO had a sidebar-type 
panel in Impress, so in that app, yes there was no way out of not using 
it when it come to assigning slide transitions and custom animations.


Yousuf

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Sidebar Survey

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

I think it is good to have alternative interactions definitely. But those
interactions should add something diferent. For example, I can do some
quick configurations through sidebar/toolbar but through menus I can
achieve more fine tuning.

I think that even if there are alternative interactions each of those
interactions should open by the comand of the user. When selecting a
chart/image/symbol that all the alternative interactions of the toolbar,
sidebar and menus popped open at the same time. Right now that is what's
happening with the toolbar and sidebar.

So the question I would ask would be more the following:

"When selecting an object (like a chart, text box or shape) do you want to
have its formatting controls at either toolbar or sidebar?"
( ) Toolbar
( ) Sidebar



On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 6:12 PM, Heiko Tietze 
wrote:

> On Donnerstag, 25. Februar 2016 12:34:35 CET Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
> > Is the survey already running or will it still be launched?
> Nope, still time to add ideas.
>
> > Anyway, I would just like to make a proposal for changing one aspect of
> the
> > behaviour of the Sidebar and toolbar. Right now on LO 5.1 when a certain
> > object like charts or pictures or symbols is selected there is a
> > duplication of formatting options that appear on the Sidebar and also on
> > the toolbars.
> > IMO, when selecting an object the formatting properties for that object
> > should appear only in the Sidebar (as is the case even in Microsoft
> Office
> > 2013 where they have a sidebar of sorts).
> >
> >  And not have the same commands showing up also in the toolbar cluttering
> > it (also the Sidebar invariably shows more commands than the toolbar and
> > allows for easier understanding of what each command is since they
> usually
> > also include text and category names.
> >
> > Also, just as in Impress the text formating toolbar disappeared since
> most
> > of its functions are present in the Sidebar I would propose to remove the
> > text Formatting toolbar in Writer and Calc to have coherence between the
> > three main modules of LO and because those functions are duplicated in
> the
> > Sidebar and toolbar.
> You can either add those ideas to the survey. Or we ask another question
> like
>
> "Do you want to have controls at only one position. either toolbar or
> sidebar?"
> ( ) No, I want to have the freedom to use both
> ( ) Yes, please clean up the interface
>
> However, I think this would violate usability. Redundancy in terms of
> alternative interactions is good. Your argument could be that redundancy
> means
> to have the opportunity to start from main menu. context menu, toolbar or
> per
> keyboard. And toolbar vs sidebar are badly redundant since it doesn't add
> an
> alternative way to control the application.
>
> Opinions please.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Sidebar Survey

[Heiko Tietze]

On Donnerstag, 25. Februar 2016 12:34:35 CET Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
> Is the survey already running or will it still be launched?
Nope, still time to add ideas.
 
> Anyway, I would just like to make a proposal for changing one aspect of the
> behaviour of the Sidebar and toolbar. Right now on LO 5.1 when a certain
> object like charts or pictures or symbols is selected there is a
> duplication of formatting options that appear on the Sidebar and also on
> the toolbars.
> IMO, when selecting an object the formatting properties for that object
> should appear only in the Sidebar (as is the case even in Microsoft Office
> 2013 where they have a sidebar of sorts).
> 
>  And not have the same commands showing up also in the toolbar cluttering
> it (also the Sidebar invariably shows more commands than the toolbar and
> allows for easier understanding of what each command is since they usually
> also include text and category names.
> 
> Also, just as in Impress the text formating toolbar disappeared since most
> of its functions are present in the Sidebar I would propose to remove the
> text Formatting toolbar in Writer and Calc to have coherence between the
> three main modules of LO and because those functions are duplicated in the
> Sidebar and toolbar.
You can either add those ideas to the survey. Or we ask another question like

"Do you want to have controls at only one position. either toolbar or 
sidebar?"
( ) No, I want to have the freedom to use both
( ) Yes, please clean up the interface

However, I think this would violate usability. Redundancy in terms of 
alternative interactions is good. Your argument could be that redundancy means 
to have the opportunity to start from main menu. context menu, toolbar or per 
keyboard. And toolbar vs sidebar are badly redundant since it doesn't add an 
alternative way to control the application.

Opinions please.
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Sidebar Survey

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Is the survey already running or will it still be launched?

Anyway, I would just like to make a proposal for changing one aspect of the
behaviour of the Sidebar and toolbar. Right now on LO 5.1 when a certain
object like charts or pictures or symbols is selected there is a
duplication of formatting options that appear on the Sidebar and also on
the toolbars.

IMO, when selecting an object the formatting properties for that object
should appear only in the Sidebar (as is the case even in Microsoft Office
2013 where they have a sidebar of sorts).

 And not have the same commands showing up also in the toolbar cluttering
it (also the Sidebar invariably shows more commands than the toolbar and
allows for easier understanding of what each command is since they usually
also include text and category names.

Also, just as in Impress the text formating toolbar disappeared since most
of its functions are present in the Sidebar I would propose to remove the
text Formatting toolbar in Writer and Calc to have coherence between the
three main modules of LO and because those functions are duplicated in the
Sidebar and toolbar.

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 9:36 PM, Jan Holesovsky  wrote:

> Hi Heiko,
>
> Heiko Tietze píše v Út 23. 02. 2016 v 10:43 +0100:
>
> > we repeatedly talk about sidebars, whether it should be resizable with
> > or without constraints, how to make it configurable, what features to
> > add, and so on. Often we run into a fundamental discussion, which is
> > an indicator for a missing concept. So the idea is to ask the users
> > how they utilize the sidebar and how they want it to evolve.
>
> Thank you for putting it together, and especially for:
>
> > http://pad.documentfoundation.org/p/UX_Sidebar-Survey
>
> It's great to be able to work on it using the TDF infrastructure :-)
> I've added some minor tweaks, hope it helps.
>
> All the best,
> Kendy
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Sidebar Survey

[Jan Holesovsky]

Hi Heiko,

Heiko Tietze píše v Út 23. 02. 2016 v 10:43 +0100:

> we repeatedly talk about sidebars, whether it should be resizable with
> or without constraints, how to make it configurable, what features to
> add, and so on. Often we run into a fundamental discussion, which is
> an indicator for a missing concept. So the idea is to ask the users
> how they utilize the sidebar and how they want it to evolve.

Thank you for putting it together, and especially for:

> http://pad.documentfoundation.org/p/UX_Sidebar-Survey

It's great to be able to work on it using the TDF infrastructure :-)
I've added some minor tweaks, hope it helps.

All the best,
Kendy


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Sidebar Survey

[Dave]

 Original Message  
From: Heiko Tietze
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 10:43:32 +0100

> Hi all,
> 
> we repeatedly talk about sidebars, whether it should be resizable with
> or without constraints, how to make it configurable, what features to
> add, and so on. Often we run into a fundamental discussion, which is
> an indicator for a missing concept. So the idea is to ask the users
> how they utilize the sidebar and how they want it to evolve.
> 
> The proposal for this survey is available on GDoc
> 
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ts5GlnrOGWcn7_V9naqRF-Ag9EWzFpsF6GwxH_uzzRw/edit?usp=sharing
> 
> and for the FLOSS enthusiasts also on LibO pads
> 
> http://pad.documentfoundation.org/p/UX_Sidebar-Survey
> 
> Please take a look for completeness and if the intro text makes sense.
> If there are no objections I suggest to make the decision for the post
> on Friday (and start the survey this weekend).
> 
> Cheers,
> Heiko

Hi Heiko,

Nice proposal. Here are a couple of trivial grammar suggestions:

* If I understand the intention of the sentence correctly, "Simplified
spoken..." should say "In simplified terms..."

* Likewise "...to meet the concept strictly." should say "...to strictly
meet the concept."

Also, I don't understand why the first question only makes reference to
Writer & Calc. IMNSHO the survey should cover all modules where the
sidebar regression, is imposed.

For those of us that loath and detest the IBM sidebar, only marginally
less than the MSO ribbon, please add one more option, OR replace the
existing "( ) No, I tried it but prefer toolbars." option, in the first
question with:
( ) Yes, Only because I am forced to use it.

I propose this because it might give a clearer assessment of why the
options in the other questions were chosen.

Just my 2¢ worth.

Regards
Dave




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[libreoffice-design] Sidebar Survey

[Heiko Tietze]

Hi all,

we repeatedly talk about sidebars, whether it should be resizable with
or without constraints, how to make it configurable, what features to
add, and so on. Often we run into a fundamental discussion, which is
an indicator for a missing concept. So the idea is to ask the users
how they utilize the sidebar and how they want it to evolve.

The proposal for this survey is available on GDoc

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ts5GlnrOGWcn7_V9naqRF-Ag9EWzFpsF6GwxH_uzzRw/edit?usp=sharing

and for the FLOSS enthusiasts also on LibO pads

http://pad.documentfoundation.org/p/UX_Sidebar-Survey

Please take a look for completeness and if the intro text makes sense.
If there are no objections I suggest to make the decision for the post
on Friday (and start the survey this weekend).

Cheers,
Heiko

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