Re: [libreoffice-design] Results from the Draw Survey

[toki]

On 13/04/2016 08:46, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:

> but if you held and released it only when it has a 1024 color
> palette it would have bigger impact because you would release something
> already much more polished and usable. The marketing team could then give
> more emphasis to that.

I realize I wasn't clear, but I'm using a Calc template to abuse LibO as
a pixel-by-pixel editor. This is very much just because something can be
done, does not mean that it should be done. That said, waiting till LibO
6.0 is released, offers some interesting marketing possibilities.

FYI, There are 164 colours, 105 colours, and 166 colours in the core AOo
3.x, EO 2014, and LibO 4.3 colour palette, respectively.

Getting up to 1024 colours in incredibly time consuming.  (I basically
have to do it all in one session.)

jonathon


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Results from the Draw Survey

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

I know this goes a bit against the philosophy usually followed by Libre
Office, but if you held and released it only when it has a 1024 color
palette it would have bigger impact because you would release something
already much more polished and usable. The marketing team could then give
more emphasis to that.

On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 8:57 PM, toki  wrote:

> On 11/04/2016 06:58, Heiko Tietze wrote:
> > We run some of the previous studies localized. Even Chinese was
> > included in one of the surveys. The problem is that not only waiting
> > for the translation team heavily reduces the velocity but also the
> > analysis of free text answers needs language expertise.
>
> That was partially why I wrote "If the L10N teams are available".  My
> assumption being that an L10N team, or member thereof willing to
> translate into the target language, would also be willing, and able to
> translate responses, if needed.  (Machine translation can go so far,
> before it fails spectacularly.)
>
> >> I'm finally creating a comprehensive list of use-cases.
> > UX team decided to compile the results into a couple of bugs. Maybe we
> can work together.
>
> In as much as reading the responses ended up in me getting side tracked
> abusing LibO as a pixel-by-pixel editor (export only), I haven't gotten
> any further than a quasi outline.
>
> ###
>
> I'm trying to decide if the pixel-by-pixel template should be released
> as a work in progress, with updates as the colour palette increases, or
> if I should wait until it has a 1024 colour palette.
>
> jonathon
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Results from the Draw Survey

[toki]

On 11/04/2016 06:58, Heiko Tietze wrote:
> We run some of the previous studies localized. Even Chinese was
> included in one of the surveys. The problem is that not only waiting
> for the translation team heavily reduces the velocity but also the
> analysis of free text answers needs language expertise.

That was partially why I wrote "If the L10N teams are available".  My
assumption being that an L10N team, or member thereof willing to
translate into the target language, would also be willing, and able to
translate responses, if needed.  (Machine translation can go so far,
before it fails spectacularly.)

>> I'm finally creating a comprehensive list of use-cases.
> UX team decided to compile the results into a couple of bugs. Maybe we can 
> work together.

In as much as reading the responses ended up in me getting side tracked
abusing LibO as a pixel-by-pixel editor (export only), I haven't gotten
any further than a quasi outline.

###

I'm trying to decide if the pixel-by-pixel template should be released
as a work in progress, with updates as the colour palette increases, or
if I should wait until it has a 1024 colour palette.

jonathon


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Results from the Draw Survey

[Heiko Tietze]

2016-04-10 15:51 GMT+02:00 toki :
> Is the only locale in the survey « EN »?

We run some of the previous studies localized. Even Chinese was
included in one of the surveys. The problem is that not only waiting
for the translation team heavily reduces the velocity but also the
analysis of free text answers needs language expertise. On the other
hand I guess it wouldn't be only me having scientific interest in the
comparison of different cultures.

>I'm finally creating a comprehensive list of use-cases.

UX team decided to compile the results into a couple of bugs. Maybe we
can work together.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Results from the Draw Survey

[toki]

On 25/03/2016 08:12, Heiko Tietze wrote:

> My intention was to summarize in terms of use-cases. And the article should 
> contain all high-level things. Not sure if it is exhaustive, but you should 
> be 
> able to get an idea yourself from the results.

Is the only locale in the survey « EN »?

If so, may I suggest that going forward, surveys include other locales.
I realize that this probably means translating the survey into other
languages. I'd suggest adding Japanese, Spanish, and either French or
German. (If the L10N teams are available, and willing, I'd include Hindi
or Urdu, Arabic or Hebrew, Russian, and Chinese in the list of target
locales.)

> If you take the text analysis document you may use the auto filter.

I'm finally creating a comprehensive list of use-cases.

jonathon


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Results from the Draw Survey

[Heiko Tietze]

Thanks a lot. The remark means that GDocs cannot handle captions for
floating figures like Wordpress.

2016-03-29 14:07 GMT+02:00 Mike Saunders :
> Hi Heiko,
>
> OK, I've gone through the document now and done a few small English
> cleanups. The only bit I didn't understand was this: "Remark: Goes to figure
> caption of the legend"
>
> Anyway, it's a fascinating read so when you make it live on the Design blog
> I can generate some interest around it on Twitter, Reddit, Hacker News etc.
>
> Cheers,
> Mike
>
>
>
> On 24.03.2016 17:27, Heiko Tietze wrote:
>>
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>> I suspect Google to always change my setting. Pretty sure that I enabled
>> at
>> least commenting. Anyway, now it should be okay.
>> And I'm glad to have you onboard since the documentation part is mostly a
>> communication and marketing thing.
>>
>> All the best,
>> Heiko
>>
>> On Donnerstag, 24. März 2016 13:30:58 CET Mike Saunders wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Heiko,
>>>
>>> On 23.03.2016 17:51, Heiko Tietze wrote:
>>> > As usual the English is a shame and needs proof-reading from natives.
>>>
>>> Not a shame; the English is mostly great! But I'm a native speaker and
>>> can do a few cleanups if you like -- just grant access to my Google
>>> account (oka...@gmail.com) and I'll do it.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Mike

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Results from the Draw Survey

[Mike Saunders]

Hi Heiko,

OK, I've gone through the document now and done a few small English 
cleanups. The only bit I didn't understand was this: "Remark: Goes to 
figure caption of the legend"


Anyway, it's a fascinating read so when you make it live on the Design 
blog I can generate some interest around it on Twitter, Reddit, Hacker 
News etc.


Cheers,
Mike


On 24.03.2016 17:27, Heiko Tietze wrote:

Hi Mike,

I suspect Google to always change my setting. Pretty sure that I 
enabled at

least commenting. Anyway, now it should be okay.
And I'm glad to have you onboard since the documentation part is mostly 
a

communication and marketing thing.

All the best,
Heiko

On Donnerstag, 24. März 2016 13:30:58 CET Mike Saunders wrote:

Hi Heiko,

On 23.03.2016 17:51, Heiko Tietze wrote:
> As usual the English is a shame and needs proof-reading from natives.

Not a shame; the English is mostly great! But I'm a native speaker and
can do a few cleanups if you like -- just grant access to my Google
account (oka...@gmail.com) and I'll do it.

Cheers,
Mike


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Results from the Draw Survey

[Heiko Tietze]

On Freitag, 25. März 2016 01:29:46 CET toki wrote:
> On 24/03/2016 09:29, Heiko Tietze wrote:
> >> Can you redo the charts in colour, rather than B
> > Sure. But why?
> Improve3s readability/ease of understanding.
> >And what color?
> Each one a different colour.
Too many colors are rather confusing. I asked the questions because color has 
always to convey a distinct information.
However, I could use the LibO green instead of black/gray; not a perfect color 
for diagrams IMHO. Other opinions?
 
> > I'm afraid of making the post lengthy, more than it is. It also might be
> > hard to find good citations. Most replies are just one-worders.
> Use numbered end notes.   That way people who glaze over notes know that
> they can stop reading, without losing any content, whilst those who want
> more information, can have pointers to it.
In a blog post we do not have footnotes. Maybe endnotes. And even in this case 
we would have to deal with answers like

"Writing technical documents, with diagrams, schematics and mathematical 
formulas."
"Draw schemes for math books, network diagrams, UML schemes, database/software 
relationships diagrams.But not CAD-drawings."
"Creating the schemes of biological processes, which represents the math model 
behind them."
"Creating mathematical constructions and illustrations."

"Some things i think can be improved:better performancemore comfortable 
formula editor and math typesettinggood-looking predefined styles for 
shapesmaybe some geometric tools like snapping a line to normal or tangent of 
a curve or circle"
"I don't know, I honestly think Libreoffice should partner with Inkscape 
instead 
of Draw and Kexi instead of base. Both are great FOSS solutions that 
compliment LO's superior document and spreadsheet editors. Base is in an 
embarrassing states (see: AOO level quality), and I always try Draw, get 
frustrated by the lack of granularity in movement, and switch to Inkscape.In 
that sense your suggestion to focus on Flow Chart development may make sense 
here. Maybe combine Math and Draw into one product branding."
 
> By more comprehensive, I mean things like stating that the House Plan is
> part of a 3D model, created using LibO. If possible, point to a tutorial
> that describes how to use Draw to create house plans.
I think TDF has to write those tutorials. My hope was that the categorization 
of use cases (block diagram, vector graphics, presentations/DTP, pixel 
manipulation) introduced in this article is really innovative and would be a 
good starting point.

> "mathematical Constructions" was something I didn't expect to see. I'm
> assuming this refers to creating a math formula, that is beyond the
> current capability/functionality of the Math component of LibO.
> Clarification that that is what is meant would be useful.
I was surprised as well. This is one of the curiosities of open ended 
questions: you get answers that probably come from the fact that people do not 
know the right solution. The citations above are what the participants said in 
respect to "mathematical constructions".
BTW: Another example of missed functionality is the curved connector. This 
feature was requested more than once but we have it. Maybe it was introduced 
in one of the latest releases. That's what I meant with "Some features were 
demanded by the participants but have been integrated (or are just hidden). 
Maybe I have overlooked something and still request an existing feature."
I "translated" this request into "better handling of curved connector lines".

> Do you have a list of all of the different use cases that were provided
> in the survey?  If so, can you add them at to the missing documentation
> page at
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Documentation_missing
> 
> If you don't, then, assuming that
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByWdNpQKVjM8bF91TGJCUXlFUk0/view?pref=2
> =1 is still live, I can grab the data, and create the use cases to add to
> that list.
My intention was to summarize in terms of use-cases. And the article should 
contain all high-level things. Not sure if it is exhaustive, but you should be 
able to get an idea yourself from the results. If you take the text analysis 
document you may use the auto filter. All files are up to date.

Cheers,
Heiko
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Results from the Draw Survey

[toki]

On 24/03/2016 09:29, Heiko Tietze wrote:

>> Can you redo the charts in colour, rather than B
> Sure. But why? 

Improve3s readability/ease of understanding.

>And what color?

Each one a different colour.

>> comprehensive, and more complete set of citations.
> I'm afraid of making the post lengthy, more than it is. It also might be hard 
> to find good citations. Most replies are just one-worders.

Use numbered end notes.   That way people who glaze over notes know that
they can stop reading, without losing any content, whilst those who want
more information, can have pointers to it.

By more comprehensive, I mean things like stating that the House Plan is
part of a 3D model, created using LibO. If possible, point to a tutorial
that describes how to use Draw to create house plans.

"mathematical Constructions" was something I didn't expect to see. I'm
assuming this refers to creating a math formula, that is beyond the
current capability/functionality of the Math component of LibO.
Clarification that that is what is meant would be useful.

I don't remember the other points that I would have expected a citation
for, if only because they were things that I didn't expect Draw to be
able to accomplish what was described.

> This floor plan is one of the most complex vector drawing I found.

I'd say it is complicated, and a very interesting use-case.
Assuming he hasn't yet written one in Spanish, can he be convinced to
write a tutorial on how others can use Draw to create house plans.

> Thanks for the reminder. Documentation is requested in the outlook
section.

Missed that one.  :(

Do you have a list of all of the different use cases that were provided
in the survey?  If so, can you add them at to the missing documentation
page at
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Documentation_missing

If you don't, then, assuming that
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByWdNpQKVjM8bF91TGJCUXlFUk0/view?pref=2=1
is still live, I can grab the data, and create the use cases to add to
that list.

jonathon


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Results from the Draw Survey

[Heiko Tietze]

Hi Mike,

I suspect Google to always change my setting. Pretty sure that I enabled at 
least commenting. Anyway, now it should be okay.
And I'm glad to have you onboard since the documentation part is mostly a 
communication and marketing thing. 

All the best,
Heiko

On Donnerstag, 24. März 2016 13:30:58 CET Mike Saunders wrote:
> Hi Heiko,
> 
> On 23.03.2016 17:51, Heiko Tietze wrote:
> > As usual the English is a shame and needs proof-reading from natives.
> 
> Not a shame; the English is mostly great! But I'm a native speaker and
> can do a few cleanups if you like -- just grant access to my Google
> account (oka...@gmail.com) and I'll do it.
> 
> Cheers,
> Mike
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Results from the Draw Survey

[Mike Saunders]

Hi Heiko,

On 23.03.2016 17:51, Heiko Tietze wrote:


As usual the English is a shame and needs proof-reading from natives.


Not a shame; the English is mostly great! But I'm a native speaker and 
can do a few cleanups if you like -- just grant access to my Google 
account (oka...@gmail.com) and I'll do it.


Cheers,
Mike

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Results from the Draw Survey

[Heiko Tietze]

On Mittwoch, 23. März 2016 21:09:54 CET toki wrote:
> On 23/03/2016 16:51, Heiko Tietze wrote:
> > read critical to make sure that it's not too concise, not boring, and
> > that you can follow the argumentation.
> 
> Can you redo the charts in colour, rather than B
Sure. But why? And what color?
 
> > The result is a personal conclusion that should be verified.
> 
> I didn't read the individual survey responses, but based upon what you
> wrote there, and the comments that came up in discussing the survey, I
> think the only change would be adding that documentation has not kept up
> with changes to draw.
Args, I wanted to add this. Thanks for the reminder. Documentation is 
requested in the outlook section.

> > Also I suggest to left out the citations in the final publication.
> 
> If anything, the final publication needs to include a more
> comprehensive, and more complete set of citations.
I'm afraid of making the post lengthy, more than it is. It also might be hard 
to find good citations. Most replies are just one-worders.

> Whist it was obvious to me that the house plan from 1991 was not
> originally created with LibO, I couldn't tell from either your report,
> or from reading the blog it came from, if the new house plan was created
> with LibO, or if the user thought that they should be able to recreate
> the house plan using LibO.
This floor plan is one of the most complex vector drawing I found. According to 
Octavio's translation it is done in LibO. But even when not it would be 
possible. The idea is to illustrate our options - and that's one of the 
interesting use-cases.

Many thanks for carefully reading,
Heiko
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Results from the Draw Survey

[Octavio Alvarez]

On 23/03/16 14:09, toki wrote:
> Whist it was obvious to me that the house plan from 1991 was not
> originally created with LibO, I couldn't tell from either your
> report, or from reading the blog it came from, if the new house plan
> was created with LibO, or if the user thought that they should be
> able to recreate the house plan using LibO.

Translating the relevant paragraph directly into English, from the
mentioned blog post [1]:

"I acknowledge that the plan has many design mistakes; now that I copied
it into LibreOffice Draw I noticed that, but that was the first
intention, digitally drawing it and then make changes and corrections."

[1]
https://riggblog.wordpress.com/2016/02/28/mi-primer-plano-arquitectonico-de-1991-en-libreoffice-draw/

Hope this helps.


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Results from the Draw Survey

[toki]

On 23/03/2016 16:51, Heiko Tietze wrote:

> read critical to make sure that it's not too concise, not boring, and
> that you can follow the argumentation.

Can you redo the charts in colour, rather than B

> The result is a personal conclusion that should be verified.

I didn't read the individual survey responses, but based upon what you
wrote there, and the comments that came up in discussing the survey, I
think the only change would be adding that documentation has not kept up
with changes to draw.

> Also I suggest to left out the citations in the final publication.

If anything, the final publication needs to include a more
comprehensive, and more complete set of citations.

Whist it was obvious to me that the house plan from 1991 was not
originally created with LibO, I couldn't tell from either your report,
or from reading the blog it came from, if the new house plan was created
with LibO, or if the user thought that they should be able to recreate
the house plan using LibO.

jonathon






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