[JMeter] HTTP Sampler consolidation of implementations
Just a heads up that I'm currently working on trying to combine the HTTP implementations (Java, HttpClient3) into a single GUI, with run-time choice of implementation. The rationale for this is that HttpClient 4 is now available, and it would be good to add that, but I think we should keep HttpClient for backwards compatibility and comparison. Creating another GUI/Sampler set is easy enough, but it would be useful to be able to switch implementations easily - currently that requires switching samplers (e.g. by editting the JMX file). The current plan is to allow the implementation to be specified on the HTTP Request Defaults config screen as well as on the HTTP Request screen. The code is a bit involved, because the Config settings are processed at run-time after the test plan has been built. [But even the Sampler GUI needs to create the sampler before it can store the sampler settings - and the implementation can then be changed.] Currently I use a Sampler Proxy that dispatches to the appropriate implementation class. These classes have to extend an abstract class that provides the necessary methods to interface with the Proxy test element and thus provide access to the test element properties. That part seems to be working OK. The next phase is to ensure that existing JMX files can be converted (during load) to use the new sampler. The intention is to keep the existing Java and HttpClient samplers, so that subclasses will continue to work, but not expose them in the GUI. I've not finally decided about the AJP sampler - it can be easily converted, but I don't think there's much of a use case for switching between AJP and another implementation. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@jakarta.apache.org
Re: [JMeter] Convert to Maven based build?
Hi sebb, On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 9:42 AM, sebb seb...@gmail.com wrote: On 25 November 2010 14:18, Peter Lynch ply...@apache.org wrote: I am wondering if there is developer support for the idea of converting JMeter's build process to be based on Maven. If there is suitable support of this idea, I was going to start writing a conversion script that would convert the project sources while maintaining as much scm history as possible. Should be possible to maintain all SCM history if done properly. Note that changes of source layout will cause a (one-off) problem for people who maintain private patches. I have outlined some of the advantages this offers in this enhancement https://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=50324 https://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=50324 So what do the developers think? Why do you want to build JMeter with Maven? I'd like JMeter to be accessible to as many developers as possible. I'd like the source code layout to be more standardized, to be more accessible to Java developers who want to contribute to the project. I'd like to fix problems in JMeter source code by opening the project in any IDE that supports Maven project structures and know instantly how to run tests, build and deploy. I'd like the artifacts that JMeter produces to be in a format that can be more easily reused and referenced by other projects. Is it just so that JMeter jars can be uploaded to Maven Central? If so, then there are simpler ways to achieve this. No that is not the primary reason, see above. I am familiar with how to get jars on Central using various methods - I work at Sonatype afterall ;). Is it so that you can run JMeter with Maven (assuming jars are in Central)? If so, then potentially major changes are needed to JMeter, because currently it maintains its own classpath, and expects to find jars in specific locations. For example, lib/ext is searched for JMeter components; lib is not. Since JMeter has to do quite a lot of jar scanning, it is important that this is efficient. You bring up some good points but all of this is scope creep - it may come as an eventual side effect but that is not the main goal. It may turn out that during the conversion process there is some roadblock that would prevent Maven being useful - but I doubt it. I would suggest any changes converting to Maven brings affects mostly project structure, accessibility and maintainability over the long term. Note also that the Ant build does some work that may be tricky to implement in Maven. For example, the documentation is built twice - once for web-site, and once for the dynamic help system. The build also creates a lot of different jars. My experience of multimodule Maven builds is that they can take a lot longer than Ant, and are tricky to get working correctly. I'm not saying that JMeter can't or won't use Maven for builds, but it's not going to be at all easy to implement and maintain. I know from my participation in Apache Commons that even simple projects can spend quite a lot of time on Maven issues. It sounds like you have some valuable experience to draw upon. That's great! As long as there is not a defacto no to experimenting using Maven then I suggest to come up with a script first that does the conversion, and then discuss if the end result tradeoffs make JMeter a better project or not (... and if the changes the script applies should get committed). -Peter https://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=50324 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@jakarta.apache.org -- Peter Lynch http://blog.peterlynch.ca
Re: [JMeter] Convert to Maven based build?
I hate maven and it sucks. It does not reduce maintenance at all. I vote against changing to maven. -1 Maven is a road to he'll on my book Sent from my iPhone On Nov 25, 2010, at 1:28 PM, sebb seb...@gmail.com wrote: On 25 November 2010 17:54, Peter Lynch pe...@peterlynch.ca wrote: Hi sebb, On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 9:42 AM, sebb seb...@gmail.com wrote: On 25 November 2010 14:18, Peter Lynch ply...@apache.org wrote: I am wondering if there is developer support for the idea of converting JMeter's build process to be based on Maven. If there is suitable support of this idea, I was going to start writing a conversion script that would convert the project sources while maintaining as much scm history as possible. Should be possible to maintain all SCM history if done properly. Note that changes of source layout will cause a (one-off) problem for people who maintain private patches. I have outlined some of the advantages this offers in this enhancement https://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=50324 https://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=50324 So what do the developers think? Why do you want to build JMeter with Maven? I'd like JMeter to be accessible to as many developers as possible. I'd like the source code layout to be more standardized, to be more accessible to Java developers who want to contribute to the project. I'd like to fix problems in JMeter source code by opening the project in any IDE that supports Maven project structures and know instantly how to run tests, build and deploy. I'd like the artifacts that JMeter produces to be in a format that can be more easily reused and referenced by other projects. Is it just so that JMeter jars can be uploaded to Maven Central? If so, then there are simpler ways to achieve this. No that is not the primary reason, see above. I am familiar with how to get jars on Central using various methods - I work at Sonatype afterall ;). Is it so that you can run JMeter with Maven (assuming jars are in Central)? If so, then potentially major changes are needed to JMeter, because currently it maintains its own classpath, and expects to find jars in specific locations. For example, lib/ext is searched for JMeter components; lib is not. Since JMeter has to do quite a lot of jar scanning, it is important that this is efficient. You bring up some good points but all of this is scope creep - it may come as an eventual side effect but that is not the main goal. This is not scope creep - if the above mentioned issues are not addressed, then JMeter either won't work or will be slowed down. It may turn out that during the conversion process there is some roadblock that would prevent Maven being useful - but I doubt it. Well, the above need to be addressed for a start. I would suggest any changes converting to Maven brings affects mostly project structure, accessibility and maintainability over the long term. The layout of SVN is not particularly important to me; that can be changed to suit Maven and the Ant file modified to suit. However, I do take issue with the proposition that converting to Maven necessarily reduces maintenance. Note also that the Ant build does some work that may be tricky to implement in Maven. For example, the documentation is built twice - once for web-site, and once for the dynamic help system. The build also creates a lot of different jars. My experience of multimodule Maven builds is that they can take a lot longer than Ant, and are tricky to get working correctly. I'm not saying that JMeter can't or won't use Maven for builds, but it's not going to be at all easy to implement and maintain. I know from my participation in Apache Commons that even simple projects can spend quite a lot of time on Maven issues. It sounds like you have some valuable experience to draw upon. That's great! I'm the current release manager, and have been for several years. As long as there is not a defacto no to experimenting using Maven then I suggest to come up with a script first that does the conversion, and then discuss if the end result tradeoffs make JMeter a better project or not (... and if the changes the script applies should get committed). Rejigging the source files to fit in with Maven is a one-off effort, but before starting down this road, I think someone needs to show that JMeter will actually run OK when the jars are stored in a Maven repo. That should be possible to prove without needing to make any changes to the JMeter source layout. AIUI, it would just require copying the jars and basic POMs to a local repo, and creating a POM that depends on the JMeter jars. This work would not be wasted, as the POMs that are created will be needed later in the Mavenisation of JMeter (assuming the experiment is successful). - To
Re: [JMeter] Convert to Maven based build?
On Nov 25, 2010, at 2:29 PM, Peter Lin wool...@gmail.com wrote: even though I haven't been active in jmeter in a while, I am still a jmeter committer. Quantify a while. I'm still a committee on various projects. Would I veto a change by someone with a defined need who shows initiative? No. If Peter Lynch has the itch, why not let him experiment? This place works on initiative, not a series of subjective objections to a tool he wishes to use. This place works only if people like yourself (like myself) get out of the way of people more active than ourselves. wrote: This community is a Meritocracy, not a Democracy. What's the difference?, you ask. In a Democracy you have a vote, you can cast your vote for various reasons, no one asks why if you vote a certain way. There's no abstract idea of merit. At Apache you certainly have a vote in a consensus-based approach to collaboration, but no one has license to -1 without an argument on the merits. This is what makes the community a Meritocracy. If you disagree with Peter's initiative, you'll need to provide a few things for your veto to stick: 1. A detailed set of objections to which Peter should be able to respond. 2. Some justification as to why the community would reject initiative? 3. A reasonable attempt to understand the merit of a particular proposal. I think the maven is a road to hell rhetoric violates the necessary sense of decorum that enables a group of volunteers to work together. It runs counter to the ideas the Foundation (supposedly) adheres to. If you are really casting a veto on peter's initiative stand up and present a viable counter-argument. If you don't I do believe the the community should disregard you previous email. Tim O'Brien On Nov 25, 2010, at 12:46 PM, Peter Lin wool...@gmail.com wrote: I hate maven and it sucks. It does not reduce maintenance at all. I vote against changing to maven. -1 Maven is a road to he'll on my book Sent from my iPhone On Nov 25, 2010, at 1:28 PM, sebb seb...@gmail.com wrote: On 25 November 2010 17:54, Peter Lynch pe...@peterlynch.ca wrote: Hi sebb, On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 9:42 AM, sebb seb...@gmail.com wrote: On 25 November 2010 14:18, Peter Lynch ply...@apache.org wrote: I am wondering if there is developer support for the idea of converting JMeter's build process to be based on Maven. If there is suitable support of this idea, I was going to start writing a conversion script that would convert the project sources while maintaining as much scm history as possible. Should be possible to maintain all SCM history if done properly. Note that changes of source layout will cause a (one-off) problem for people who maintain private patches. I have outlined some of the advantages this offers in this enhancement https://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=50324 https://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=50324 So what do the developers think? Why do you want to build JMeter with Maven? I'd like JMeter to be accessible to as many developers as possible. I'd like the source code layout to be more standardized, to be more accessible to Java developers who want to contribute to the project. I'd like to fix problems in JMeter source code by opening the project in any IDE that supports Maven project structures and know instantly how to run tests, build and deploy. I'd like the artifacts that JMeter produces to be in a format that can be more easily reused and referenced by other projects. Is it just so that JMeter jars can be uploaded to Maven Central? If so, then there are simpler ways to achieve this. No that is not the primary reason, see above. I am familiar with how to get jars on Central using various methods - I work at Sonatype afterall ;). Is it so that you can run JMeter with Maven (assuming jars are in Central)? If so, then potentially major changes are needed to JMeter, because currently it maintains its own classpath, and expects to find jars in specific locations. For example, lib/ext is searched for JMeter components; lib is not. Since JMeter has to do quite a lot of jar scanning, it is important that this is efficient. You bring up some good points but all of this is scope creep - it may come as an eventual side effect but that is not the main goal. This is not scope creep - if the above mentioned issues are not addressed, then JMeter either won't work or will be slowed down. It may turn out that during the conversion process there is some roadblock that would prevent Maven being useful - but I doubt it. Well, the above need to be addressed for a start. I would suggest any changes converting to Maven brings affects mostly project structure, accessibility and maintainability over the long term. The layout of SVN is not particularly important to me; that can be changed to suit Maven and the
Re: [JMeter] HTTP Sampler consolidation of implementations
Hello, Your plan seems very well. Keep legacy samplers (Java, Hc3) is a good things, but perhaps if there has three http samplers thus will introduce some confusing for a new user? (what http sampler is the best for my test?) (Actually, my understanding is the Java Http sampler is the legacy and reliable, and Hc3 is new challenger and is better for httpS request...) Another ask: what will be the default sampler? AJP sampler seems not very used like sampler. Keep his independence will be good for the evolution of federated http sampler. Milamber Le 25/11/2010 15:45, sebb a ecrit : Just a heads up that I'm currently working on trying to combine the HTTP implementations (Java, HttpClient3) into a single GUI, with run-time choice of implementation. The rationale for this is that HttpClient 4 is now available, and it would be good to add that, but I think we should keep HttpClient for backwards compatibility and comparison. Creating another GUI/Sampler set is easy enough, but it would be useful to be able to switch implementations easily - currently that requires switching samplers (e.g. by editting the JMX file). The current plan is to allow the implementation to be specified on the HTTP Request Defaults config screen as well as on the HTTP Request screen. The code is a bit involved, because the Config settings are processed at run-time after the test plan has been built. [But even the Sampler GUI needs to create the sampler before it can store the sampler settings - and the implementation can then be changed.] Currently I use a Sampler Proxy that dispatches to the appropriate implementation class. These classes have to extend an abstract class that provides the necessary methods to interface with the Proxy test element and thus provide access to the test element properties. That part seems to be working OK. The next phase is to ensure that existing JMX files can be converted (during load) to use the new sampler. The intention is to keep the existing Java and HttpClient samplers, so that subclasses will continue to work, but not expose them in the GUI. I've not finally decided about the AJP sampler - it can be easily converted, but I don't think there's much of a use case for switching between AJP and another implementation. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@jakarta.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@jakarta.apache.org
Re: [JMeter] Convert to Maven based build?
honestly, I don't remember the last time I committed changes for jmeter. it was a bug fix in something I wrote 5-6 years back. I've contributed quite a bit of stuff to jmeter in the past and still use it. For me, jmeter is a mature stable product that meets all of my needs, so I haven't needed any new features the last 3-4 years. I have no objections to stepping aside so that new people can get involved. I just question the need to change from ANT to Maven. JMeter is a stand alone app. From my own experience, people tend to use maven to make it easier to deploy a webapp to a container, which doesn't apply to jmeter. If the goal is to push jmeter jars to a maven repository, there's no need to use maven. simply create a task with ant that uploads the jars. JMeter's structure is mature and works well. If someone can convince me of the actual benefits of using maven with jmeter, I'll gladly eat crow and vote for it. As I stated earlier, I hate maven and have a strong bias from first hand experience. It's not like I came the conclusion without using it. I supported a complex project for over a year and half that used maven. In practice, maintaining maven build often degenerates to a full time job. This isn't some third hand story, I was the person stuck with maintaining a maven build. I have no desire to burden sebastian with maintaining maven build when the current ant build works well and has basically zero maintenance over head. Will moving to maven reduce maintenance cost below zero? On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Tim O'Brien tobr...@discursive.com wrote: On Nov 25, 2010, at 2:29 PM, Peter Lin wool...@gmail.com wrote: even though I haven't been active in jmeter in a while, I am still a jmeter committer. Quantify a while. I'm still a committee on various projects. Would I veto a change by someone with a defined need who shows initiative? No. If Peter Lynch has the itch, why not let him experiment? This place works on initiative, not a series of subjective objections to a tool he wishes to use. This place works only if people like yourself (like myself) get out of the way of people more active than ourselves. wrote: This community is a Meritocracy, not a Democracy. What's the difference?, you ask. In a Democracy you have a vote, you can cast your vote for various reasons, no one asks why if you vote a certain way. There's no abstract idea of merit. At Apache you certainly have a vote in a consensus-based approach to collaboration, but no one has license to -1 without an argument on the merits. This is what makes the community a Meritocracy. If you disagree with Peter's initiative, you'll need to provide a few things for your veto to stick: 1. A detailed set of objections to which Peter should be able to respond. 2. Some justification as to why the community would reject initiative? 3. A reasonable attempt to understand the merit of a particular proposal. I think the maven is a road to hell rhetoric violates the necessary sense of decorum that enables a group of volunteers to work together. It runs counter to the ideas the Foundation (supposedly) adheres to. If you are really casting a veto on peter's initiative stand up and present a viable counter-argument. If you don't I do believe the the community should disregard you previous email. Tim O'Brien On Nov 25, 2010, at 12:46 PM, Peter Lin wool...@gmail.com wrote: I hate maven and it sucks. It does not reduce maintenance at all. I vote against changing to maven. -1 Maven is a road to he'll on my book Sent from my iPhone On Nov 25, 2010, at 1:28 PM, sebb seb...@gmail.com wrote: On 25 November 2010 17:54, Peter Lynch pe...@peterlynch.ca wrote: Hi sebb, On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 9:42 AM, sebb seb...@gmail.com wrote: On 25 November 2010 14:18, Peter Lynch ply...@apache.org wrote: I am wondering if there is developer support for the idea of converting JMeter's build process to be based on Maven. If there is suitable support of this idea, I was going to start writing a conversion script that would convert the project sources while maintaining as much scm history as possible. Should be possible to maintain all SCM history if done properly. Note that changes of source layout will cause a (one-off) problem for people who maintain private patches. I have outlined some of the advantages this offers in this enhancement https://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=50324 https://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=50324 So what do the developers think? Why do you want to build JMeter with Maven? I'd like JMeter to be accessible to as many developers as possible. I'd like the source code layout to be more standardized, to be more accessible to Java developers who want to contribute to the project. I'd like to fix problems in JMeter source code by opening the project in any IDE that supports Maven project structures and know
Re: [JMeter] HTTP Sampler consolidation of implementations
On 25 November 2010 23:13, Milamber milam...@apache.org wrote: Hello, Your plan seems very well. Keep legacy samplers (Java, Hc3) is a good things, but perhaps if there has three http samplers thus will introduce some confusing for a new user? (what http sampler is the best for my test?) It will have to be documented. In theory, HC4 will be the best, but it may take a while to get the JMeter interface code working correctly. So I did not want to replace HC3 with HC4. Once it is well established, HC3 can be made optional, at which point JMeter would revert to two choices again. (Actually, my understanding is the Java Http sampler is the legacy and reliable, and Hc3 is new challenger and is better for httpS request...) Another ask: what will be the default sampler? Currently it is the Java sampler, but I plan to make it configurable with a JMeter property. AJP sampler seems not very used like sampler. Keep his independence will be good for the evolution of federated http sampler. Milamber Le 25/11/2010 15:45, sebb a ecrit : Just a heads up that I'm currently working on trying to combine the HTTP implementations (Java, HttpClient3) into a single GUI, with run-time choice of implementation. The rationale for this is that HttpClient 4 is now available, and it would be good to add that, but I think we should keep HttpClient for backwards compatibility and comparison. Creating another GUI/Sampler set is easy enough, but it would be useful to be able to switch implementations easily - currently that requires switching samplers (e.g. by editting the JMX file). The current plan is to allow the implementation to be specified on the HTTP Request Defaults config screen as well as on the HTTP Request screen. The code is a bit involved, because the Config settings are processed at run-time after the test plan has been built. [But even the Sampler GUI needs to create the sampler before it can store the sampler settings - and the implementation can then be changed.] Currently I use a Sampler Proxy that dispatches to the appropriate implementation class. These classes have to extend an abstract class that provides the necessary methods to interface with the Proxy test element and thus provide access to the test element properties. That part seems to be working OK. The next phase is to ensure that existing JMX files can be converted (during load) to use the new sampler. The intention is to keep the existing Java and HttpClient samplers, so that subclasses will continue to work, but not expose them in the GUI. I've not finally decided about the AJP sampler - it can be easily converted, but I don't think there's much of a use case for switching between AJP and another implementation. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@jakarta.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@jakarta.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@jakarta.apache.org
Re: [JMeter] Convert to Maven based build?
Truthfully the main motivation for proposing to use Maven to build JMeter is to increase the chances of getting more people involved in the project, to fix bugs, to send patches and add features. Honestly do we expect the majority of potential developers to run for the hills and the project to die if JMeter project is built with Maven? On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Peter Lin wool...@gmail.com wrote: even though I haven't been active in jmeter in a while, I am still a jmeter committer. quite honestly, I've seen maven work first hand. 1. the claim it reduces maintenance has not truth. My first hand experience is that it creates a much bigger burden. Configuration management maintenance burden is relative to the frequency of change within the project. If what JMeter delivers in terms of final artifacts does not change, I don't expect maintaining a Maven build to somehow require change for change sake. 2. changing the directory structure of jmeter to fit maven is wrong for several reasons. due to maven's suggested structure it's common to run into path length issues on windows platforms. When i was responsible for maintaining maven builds, we often had to rename unit tests because it exceeded 255 characters. Forcing everyone to use and build on linux or unix is not acceptable in my book. Using an NTFS based Windows file system, UNC paths, path name components (ie. a file name or directory name) under 260 characters and total path length under ~32000 characters - there is no problem. Last I experienced a problem using Maven and long paths was with JDK 1.5, Windows XP and a FAT filesystem. How many developers are building JMeter on a FAT filesystem, I dunno but sounds like the chances of running into this problem on a development environment nowadays is pretty slim. 3. not everyone wants or cares to install maven. Couldn't someone say that about any tool? 4. maven 1 and 2 are both slow We cannot compare speed of the building JMeter using Maven because we have no benchmark building it with Maven yet. We create a script that converts to Maven project. Run the build actions and understand the deployment process. Compare the build time it takes to do common actions. Weigh any build time overhead with current build process and all of the other benefits and go from there. Lets say the entire Maven build takes 10 seconds longer (I have no data yet) - is it so bad that all the other benefits make it not worth it? If how to develop JMeter using IDEA, Netbeans and Eclipse remains a black art compared to just importing a Maven project into your IDE and go...is it worth it? Maybe...but lets at least deal with facts at least. The first step to do that is to try it out. 5. maven repositories are notoriously unreliable. when maven repositories go down, maven builds fail until that repository comes back. A few years back codehaus went down due to hardware failure. people that relied on codehaus + maven ended up having build issues The state of repository servers has changed quite a bit from a few years ago. 6. maven 1 2 repositories are poorly designed and do not support versioning properly from first hand experience. Back when I maintained maven builds, we ended up creating multiple maven repositories internally so that we could support multiple releases. I can say that using Maven 1 is a bad choice today if you have the opportunity to use Maven 3. Since JMeter would be newly using Maven, I see no reason not to use the latest version. bottom line is, maven is poorly designed and not worth the hassle. Plenty of people find it works fine for them, and there's lots of people who love maven. I am not one of those people. I'm looking to grow the JMeter community. I thought this was one way to help do that. Really does this have to be a opinionated flame war? There are simple people out there looking to volunteer to help a project grow and improve. I'm offering to be one of them. -Peter On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 2:56 PM, Tim O'Brien tobr...@discursive.com wrote: This community is a Meritocracy, not a Democracy. What's the difference?, you ask. In a Democracy you have a vote, you can cast your vote for various reasons, no one asks why if you vote a certain way. There's no abstract idea of merit. At Apache you certainly have a vote in a consensus-based approach to collaboration, but no one has license to -1 without an argument on the merits. This is what makes the community a Meritocracy. If you disagree with Peter's initiative, you'll need to provide a few things for your veto to stick: 1. A detailed set of objections to which Peter should be able to respond. 2. Some justification as to why the community would reject initiative? 3. A reasonable attempt to understand the merit of a particular proposal. I think the maven is a road to hell rhetoric violates the necessary sense of decorum that enables a group of volunteers to work
Re: [JMeter] Convert to Maven based build?
so far I am not convinced of the benefits of changing to maven. my vote is still -1 As I said before, my feeling is jmeter is mature and stable. JMeter isn't missing any critical features and seb has done a phenominal job of maintaining it. It's not like there's 10 critical features JMeter must have. Frankly, I don't buy the argument that jmeter will die. Given JMeter's focus is narrow, there's no point bloating it with lots of useless knobs and buttons. I also don't buy the argument of building developer community. JMeter's developer list has always been small even before I joined. I attribute this to the focused nature of jmeter. JMeter doesn't try to be the kitchen sink, butler, maid, dumb waiter, door bell, race car and bus all rolled into one. What kind of improvement are you talking about? What kind of growth are you talking about? Performance tools have a nitch and will always be that way. There's no realistic way to drastically grow jmeter's user base. Even though the traffic on the mailing list doesn't show it, the user base is much larger. Before I joined jmeter, I thought the user base was small. Once I started hearing from users directly, it became apparent the user base is much larger. For example, I know aetna uses it across their enterprise and is officially recommended by their standards and practices group. That's a huge user base in just 1 health care company. I also know the university of connecticut uses jmeter as their standard testing tool. What's the difference between running ant vs build command? What's the cost vs time benefit for switching? I won't speak for sebastian, but my experience is that maven 1 2 aren't reliable. If sebastian is ok with the change, I'm ok with it. He is the one who has been actively maintaining it and he is the one who will have to suffer maven. Long after other developer leave, sebastian will probably be the one maintaining it. My suggestion is to think of sebastian and the burden you put on him. Don't arbitrarily change the build because you happen to love maven. On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 9:21 PM, Peter Lynch ply...@apache.org wrote: Truthfully the main motivation for proposing to use Maven to build JMeter is to increase the chances of getting more people involved in the project, to fix bugs, to send patches and add features. Honestly do we expect the majority of potential developers to run for the hills and the project to die if JMeter project is built with Maven? On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Peter Lin wool...@gmail.com wrote: even though I haven't been active in jmeter in a while, I am still a jmeter committer. quite honestly, I've seen maven work first hand. 1. the claim it reduces maintenance has not truth. My first hand experience is that it creates a much bigger burden. Configuration management maintenance burden is relative to the frequency of change within the project. If what JMeter delivers in terms of final artifacts does not change, I don't expect maintaining a Maven build to somehow require change for change sake. 2. changing the directory structure of jmeter to fit maven is wrong for several reasons. due to maven's suggested structure it's common to run into path length issues on windows platforms. When i was responsible for maintaining maven builds, we often had to rename unit tests because it exceeded 255 characters. Forcing everyone to use and build on linux or unix is not acceptable in my book. Using an NTFS based Windows file system, UNC paths, path name components (ie. a file name or directory name) under 260 characters and total path length under ~32000 characters - there is no problem. Last I experienced a problem using Maven and long paths was with JDK 1.5, Windows XP and a FAT filesystem. How many developers are building JMeter on a FAT filesystem, I dunno but sounds like the chances of running into this problem on a development environment nowadays is pretty slim. 3. not everyone wants or cares to install maven. Couldn't someone say that about any tool? 4. maven 1 and 2 are both slow We cannot compare speed of the building JMeter using Maven because we have no benchmark building it with Maven yet. We create a script that converts to Maven project. Run the build actions and understand the deployment process. Compare the build time it takes to do common actions. Weigh any build time overhead with current build process and all of the other benefits and go from there. Lets say the entire Maven build takes 10 seconds longer (I have no data yet) - is it so bad that all the other benefits make it not worth it? If how to develop JMeter using IDEA, Netbeans and Eclipse remains a black art compared to just importing a Maven project into your IDE and go...is it worth it? Maybe...but lets at least deal with facts at least. The first step to do that is to try it out. 5. maven repositories are notoriously unreliable. when maven repositories go down, maven
Re: [JMeter] Convert to Maven based build?
Peter Lin, On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Peter Lin wool...@gmail.com wrote: so far I am not convinced of the benefits of changing to maven. my vote is still -1 As I said before, my feeling is jmeter is mature and stable. JMeter isn't missing any critical features and seb has done a phenominal job of maintaining it. It's not like there's 10 critical features JMeter must have. Frankly, I don't buy the argument that jmeter will die. Given JMeter's focus is Obviously I did not suggest JMeter will die if it doesn't use Maven ?? Where in the world... narrow, there's no point bloating it with lots of useless knobs and buttons. I also don't buy the argument of building developer community. JMeter's developer list has always been small even before I joined. I attribute this to the focused nature of jmeter. JMeter doesn't try to be the kitchen sink, butler, maid, dumb waiter, door bell, race car and bus all rolled into one. What kind of improvement are you talking about? What kind of growth are you talking about? I'm just suggesting that it is convenient to load a project's sources into a modern IDE and have the IDE instantly know how to build the project without setting up anything. That I can use previous knowledge of working on other projects and reuse it with this one. That it is useful for a project to share it's artifacts with others in a standard way. That someone who wants to contribute a patch or fix a bug or write a test has a lower barrier to entry. I've already stated other benefits in previous messages and in the bugzilla issue. Don't worry - I'm not launching JMeter Inc. Performance tools have a nitch and will always be that way. There's no realistic way to drastically grow jmeter's user base. Even though the traffic on the mailing list doesn't show it, the user base is much larger. Before I joined jmeter, I thought the user base was small. Once I started hearing from users directly, it became apparent the user base is much larger. For example, I know aetna uses it across their enterprise and is officially recommended by their standards and practices group. That's a huge user base in just 1 health care company. I also know the university of connecticut uses jmeter as their standard testing tool. What's the difference between running ant vs build command? What's the cost vs time benefit for switching? I won't speak for sebastian, but my experience is that maven 1 2 aren't reliable. If sebastian is ok with the change, I'm ok with it. He is the one who has been actively maintaining it and he is the one who will have to suffer maven. Is it really necessary to use terms like 'road to hell', describe some ideas as 'stupid', imply suffering and burdens. Perhaps it may cause some people to ignore your experiences and opinions and focus instead on your generally poor demeanor. I'm not seeing how it helps your arguments. At the end of the day, I'm just looking to volunteer my time to add value to a project I use. I am not here to sell Maven like snake oil. I refuse to predict how great or horrible JMeter will become if it uses Maven - I'd rather spend time writing a conversion script to at least provide the option for factual evaluation. Long after other developer leave, sebastian will probably be the one maintaining it. My suggestion is to think of sebastian and the burden you put on him. Don't arbitrarily change the build because you happen to love maven. On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 9:21 PM, Peter Lynch ply...@apache.org wrote: Truthfully the main motivation for proposing to use Maven to build JMeter is to increase the chances of getting more people involved in the project, to fix bugs, to send patches and add features. Honestly do we expect the majority of potential developers to run for the hills and the project to die if JMeter project is built with Maven? On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Peter Lin wool...@gmail.com wrote: even though I haven't been active in jmeter in a while, I am still a jmeter committer. quite honestly, I've seen maven work first hand. 1. the claim it reduces maintenance has not truth. My first hand experience is that it creates a much bigger burden. Configuration management maintenance burden is relative to the frequency of change within the project. If what JMeter delivers in terms of final artifacts does not change, I don't expect maintaining a Maven build to somehow require change for change sake. 2. changing the directory structure of jmeter to fit maven is wrong for several reasons. due to maven's suggested structure it's common to run into path length issues on windows platforms. When i was responsible for maintaining maven builds, we often had to rename unit tests because it exceeded 255 characters. Forcing everyone to use and build on linux or unix is not acceptable in my book. Using an NTFS based Windows file system, UNC paths, path name components
Re: [JMeter] Convert to Maven based build?
On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 12:08 AM, Peter Lynch ply...@apache.org wrote: Peter Lin, On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Peter Lin wool...@gmail.com wrote: so far I am not convinced of the benefits of changing to maven. my vote is still -1 As I said before, my feeling is jmeter is mature and stable. JMeter isn't missing any critical features and seb has done a phenominal job of maintaining it. It's not like there's 10 critical features JMeter must have. Frankly, I don't buy the argument that jmeter will die. Given JMeter's focus is Obviously I did not suggest JMeter will die if it doesn't use Maven ?? Where in the world... narrow, there's no point bloating it with lots of useless knobs and buttons. I also don't buy the argument of building developer community. JMeter's developer list has always been small even before I joined. I attribute this to the focused nature of jmeter. JMeter doesn't try to be the kitchen sink, butler, maid, dumb waiter, door bell, race car and bus all rolled into one. What kind of improvement are you talking about? What kind of growth are you talking about? I'm just suggesting that it is convenient to load a project's sources into a modern IDE and have the IDE instantly know how to build the project without setting up anything. That I can use previous knowledge of working on other projects and reuse it with this one. That it is useful for a project to share it's artifacts with others in a standard way. That someone who wants to contribute a patch or fix a bug or write a test has a lower barrier to entry. I've already stated other benefits in previous messages and in the bugzilla issue. Don't worry - I'm not launching JMeter Inc. By modern IDE what do you mean? In eclipse atleast, maven plugin do not work. Ant works out of the box in Eclipse and netbeans. Maven seems to only work great if you use IntelliJ. I fully realize I have baggage when it comes to maven and I clearly stated my bias. I'm simply voicing my experience with maven so that others see the other side of maven. I leave the decision up to sebastian, since he is the only one that really has any say. Is it really necessary to use terms like 'road to hell', describe some ideas as 'stupid', imply suffering and burdens. Perhaps it may cause some people to ignore your experiences and opinions and focus instead on your generally poor demeanor. I'm not seeing how it helps your arguments. At the end of the day, I'm just looking to volunteer my time to add value to a project I use. I am not here to sell Maven like snake oil. I refuse to predict how great or horrible JMeter will become if it uses Maven - I'd rather spend time writing a conversion script to at least provide the option for factual evaluation. it's selfish to not think of those who are maintaining it, simply because you like maven and drank the koolaid. When I contribute to OSS projects I simply follow the established procedures and submit a patch. I don't try to change the existing setup. I just don't understand why maven proponents push it on others. I'm blunt and completely opinionated. I've seen several jakarta projects convert from ant to maven and become a pain to build. Sorry if my rants hurt your feelings, but maven tends to illicit that kind of love it or hate it response. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@jakarta.apache.org
