Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations
Hello Howard, NOOO.it's cluttered..really. I think that it is not cluttered at all. This GUI corresponds to what I need i.e.: * not to waste time in searching the wished command or to switch of mode or sub-mode (minimum of menus, maximum of buttons, panel of modes...), * always the maximum of information directly available on the screen (many hints, contextual help with right click, QRGs, actual configuration...). I hope that this corresponds also to some other needs. Now you think sincerely that it is cluttered. Nice! As we say Les goûts et les couleurs ne se discutent pas which means It is useless to discuss tastes and colours. 73 Patrick - Original Message - From: w6ids To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 2:26 AM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Hey Patrick! NOOO.it's cluttered..really. You fall back onto that old song of yours about not being a specialist, which I take in this context to mean talented enough, to work with the GUI. I don't believe that for a minute, my good man. Working the GUI may not be one of your more interesting chores and you may not have a clue as to an improved layout, but don't tell me you don't have the talent to handle it. I don't have the talent for it I think. I've been on this planet 60-plus years now; I can tell when someone is blowing smoke in my directionwell, usually...uh...most of the time. Best Regards, Sir Howard W6IDS Richmond, IN - Original Message - From: Patrick Lindecker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 4:16 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Hello Howard, SNIP SNIP But I understand that you think it is cluttered. It is simply complex (as digital modes are not always very simple). However I'm not a specialist of programs and GUI. Anyway we have the chance to have a big diversity of excellent programs, so... 73 Patrick
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations
Hi Patrick.. I would really like to hear what that sounds like I know someone who speaks French. I'll pass it by her. Best Regards, Howard W6IDS Richmond, IN - Original Message - From: Patrick Lindecker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Hello Howard, SNIP SNIP Now you think sincerely that it is cluttered. Nice! As we say Les goûts et les couleurs ne se discutent pas which means It is useless to discuss tastes and colours.
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations
Patrick, Yes, but MultiPSK and DRM780 and fldigi and other programs already support MFSK and other modes. My point is that few know about MFSK picture mode, even though it is implemented in many programs, because it is accessible only when in MFSK mode and is hard to find. So, I propose simply making it more easily accessible, for example, by making it available on a main menu, or even as its own mode. In reality, it would simply be MFSK and would start with the Open File dialog box for image types, and in the case of MultiPSK and PocketDigi, it would send the RSID for MFSK. Leigh/WA5ZNU On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:48 pm, Patrick Lindecker wrote: Hello Leigh, RR for all. is mostly a UI thing, allowing people in Olivia or some other mode of about the same bandwidth to initiate an MFSK picture transmission Yes but it would need a MFSK decoder (to decode the SSTV prefix) plus the Olivia decoder. It would be better to do MFSK16 (+MFSK SSTV) only. 73 Patrick - Original Message - From: Leigh L Klotz, Jr. To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 10:16 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Right, ypu need the size, not just the fact that it is the mode. However, if you just use the MFSK code and then send the size info in MFSK, it would be 100% compatible with existing implementations. So, it is mostly a UI thing, allowing people in Olivia or some other mode of about the same bandwidth to initiate an MFSK picture transmission without the cognitive overhead of switching to MFSK. PSK users probably wouldn't want to do this unless there is enough clear bandwidth available. 73, Leigh/WA5ZNU On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:54 am, Patrick Lindecker wrote: Hello Leigh, RSID is now available in open source C++ pocketdigi so I suspect it will RSID define modes and has a limited number of combinations available. Here you would need perhaps 24 bits to define all the information needed. So a more classical (hard decision instead of soft decision) and a bigger RS coding would be necessary, which is not a big problem but days are too short... 73 Patrick - Original Message - From: Leigh L Klotz, Jr. To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 5:49 AM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Patrick, The advantage of the MFSK analog picture mode is that it is already widely implemented, and almost all implementors of MFSK have it. Your RSID is now available in open source C++ pocketdigi so I suspect it will be incorporated into more programs as well. Put the two together and the mode will be widely available fairly soon. 73, Leigh/WA5ZNU On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 3:14 pm, Patrick Lindecker wrote: Sholto, Patrick, I just assumed that a digital SSTV mode in 500Hz that could send a decent size picture in a reasonable amount of time was impossible. With a standard modulation and a standard compression scheme you are perfectly right, but, perhaps, with some modulation as the one used by Cesco for FDMDV and a very powerful compression scheme, it's perhaps possible. A big challenge in all cases. Then error correction could also be applied... Yes, it would be ideal. 73 Patrick - Original Message - From: Sholto Fisher To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 11:56 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Patrick, I just assumed that a digital SSTV mode in 500Hz that could send a decent size picture in a reasonable amount of time was impossible. Certainly if it is possible then it would make more sense to look at that approach. Then error correction could also be applied... 73, Sholto KE7HPV. - Original Message - From: Patrick Lindecker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Hello Sholto, MFSK SSTV is an analogical SSTV mode with the originality that it is a narrow band SSTV mode (the same as MFSK) and the format of the picture is free (small or big as you want). It would be possible to put some RS prefix (with more bits available than for RS ID) to define the center frequency, format and color. But I'm not sure that the gain would be important as this type of SSTV is an old technology. Better would be a Digital SSTV within 500 Hz and as fast as standard SSTV. 73 Patrick
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations
Leigh, Have you looked at Digital SSTV based on HamDRM? I've just compiled the HamDRM DLL and am hoping to have this integrated in DM780 in February sometime. Simon Brown, HB9DRV - Original Message - From: Leigh L Klotz, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Patrick, Yes, but MultiPSK and DRM780 and fldigi and other programs already support MFSK and other modes.
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations
HI Leigh. That makes sense, but it would require Patrick to work with the GUI and he's not willing to do that, according to past comments. I think that would start a domino effect in the layout to remove clutter and I don't think he wants to get involved in that. Pity. Great program and innovative otherwise. I'd finally buy my license for it if he'd work on that GUI...heavy sigh. Sorry, Pat. It's just a li'l issue with me. I suspect most everyone else has easily adapted to the layout. Leigh just flicked my switch with his observation. No disrespect intended. Howard W6IDS Richmond, IN - Original Message - From: Leigh L Klotz, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 2:17 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Patrick, Yes, but MultiPSK and DRM780 and fldigi and other programs already support MFSK and other modes. My point is that few know about MFSK picture mode, even though it is implemented in many programs, because it is accessible only when in MFSK mode and is hard to find. So, I propose simply making it more easily accessible, for example, by making it available on a main menu, or even as its own mode. In reality, it would simply be MFSK and would start with the Open File dialog box for image types, and in the case of MultiPSK and PocketDigi, it would send the RSID for MFSK. Leigh/WA5ZNU
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations
Hello Leigh, So, I propose simply making it more easily accessible, for example, by making it available on a main menu, or even as its own mode. In I understand. In fact the solution would be to do a three pages document MFSK-SSTV easy with Multipsk in the same way as I do with ALE. dialog box for image types, and in the case of MultiPSK and PocketDigi, it would send the RSID for MFSK. It is sure very comfortable to receive a RS ID as the tuning is immediatly perfect. But you would need a specific QRG for these pictures... 73 Patrick - Original Message - From: Leigh L Klotz, Jr. To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 8:17 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Patrick, Yes, but MultiPSK and DRM780 and fldigi and other programs already support MFSK and other modes. My point is that few know about MFSK picture mode, even though it is implemented in many programs, because it is accessible only when in MFSK mode and is hard to find. So, I propose simply making it more easily accessible, for example, by making it available on a main menu, or even as its own mode. In reality, it would simply be MFSK and would start with the Open File dialog box for image types, and in the case of MultiPSK and PocketDigi, it would send the RSID for MFSK. Leigh/WA5ZNU On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:48 pm, Patrick Lindecker wrote: Hello Leigh, RR for all. is mostly a UI thing, allowing people in Olivia or some other mode of about the same bandwidth to initiate an MFSK picture transmission Yes but it would need a MFSK decoder (to decode the SSTV prefix) plus the Olivia decoder. It would be better to do MFSK16 (+MFSK SSTV) only. 73 Patrick - Original Message - From: Leigh L Klotz, Jr. To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 10:16 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Right, ypu need the size, not just the fact that it is the mode. However, if you just use the MFSK code and then send the size info in MFSK, it would be 100% compatible with existing implementations. So, it is mostly a UI thing, allowing people in Olivia or some other mode of about the same bandwidth to initiate an MFSK picture transmission without the cognitive overhead of switching to MFSK. PSK users probably wouldn't want to do this unless there is enough clear bandwidth available. 73, Leigh/WA5ZNU On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:54 am, Patrick Lindecker wrote: Hello Leigh, RSID is now available in open source C++ pocketdigi so I suspect it will RSID define modes and has a limited number of combinations available. Here you would need perhaps 24 bits to define all the information needed. So a more classical (hard decision instead of soft decision) and a bigger RS coding would be necessary, which is not a big problem but days are too short... 73 Patrick - Original Message - From: Leigh L Klotz, Jr. To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 5:49 AM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Patrick, The advantage of the MFSK analog picture mode is that it is already widely implemented, and almost all implementors of MFSK have it. Your RSID is now available in open source C++ pocketdigi so I suspect it will be incorporated into more programs as well. Put the two together and the mode will be widely available fairly soon. 73, Leigh/WA5ZNU On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 3:14 pm, Patrick Lindecker wrote: Sholto, Patrick, I just assumed that a digital SSTV mode in 500Hz that could send a decent size picture in a reasonable amount of time was impossible. With a standard modulation and a standard compression scheme you are perfectly right, but, perhaps, with some modulation as the one used by Cesco for FDMDV and a very powerful compression scheme, it's perhaps possible. A big challenge in all cases. Then error correction could also be applied... Yes, it would be ideal. 73 Patrick - Original Message - From: Sholto Fisher To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 11:56 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Patrick, I just assumed that a digital SSTV mode in 500Hz that could send a decent size picture in a reasonable amount of time was impossible. Certainly if it is possible then it would make more sense to look at that approach. Then error correction could also be applied... 73, Sholto KE7HPV. - Original Message - From: Patrick Lindecker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations
Hello Howard, to remove clutter and I don't think he wants to get involved in that. No I'm going to get involved in that simply because there is no clutter. All is done in a logical way and done to switch rapidly without going in a menu (as I don't like menus and prefer buttons). But I understand that you think it is cluttered. It is simply complex (as digital modes are not always very simple). However I'm not a specialist of programs and GUI. Anyway we have the chance to have a big diversity of excellent programs, so... 73 Patrick - Original Message - From: w6ids To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 8:34 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations HI Leigh. That makes sense, but it would require Patrick to work with the GUI and he's not willing to do that, according to past comments. I think that would start a domino effect in the layout to remove clutter and I don't think he wants to get involved in that. Pity. Great program and innovative otherwise. I'd finally buy my license for it if he'd work on that GUI...heavy sigh. Sorry, Pat. It's just a li'l issue with me. I suspect most everyone else has easily adapted to the layout. Leigh just flicked my switch with his observation. No disrespect intended. Howard W6IDS Richmond, IN - Original Message - From: Leigh L Klotz, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 2:17 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Patrick, Yes, but MultiPSK and DRM780 and fldigi and other programs already support MFSK and other modes. My point is that few know about MFSK picture mode, even though it is implemented in many programs, because it is accessible only when in MFSK mode and is hard to find. So, I propose simply making it more easily accessible, for example, by making it available on a main menu, or even as its own mode. In reality, it would simply be MFSK and would start with the Open File dialog box for image types, and in the case of MultiPSK and PocketDigi, it would send the RSID for MFSK. Leigh/WA5ZNU
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations
It could be done in 500 Hz - why are you looking for the 500Hz bandwidth? Simon Brown, HB9DRV - Original Message - From: Leigh L Klotz, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] I didn't know it fit iin 500Hz. I will go look again. This is JPEG2000 coding? If it fits, it is more interesting than MFSK's analog mode, but MFSK's analog has the deployment advantage.
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations
Yes. I still think a menu item or a button for send picture would be inviting to users. QRG I will leave it to Andy as he brought up the topic of center of activity. Leigh/WA5ZNU On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 1:07 pm, Patrick Lindecker wrote: Hello Leigh, So, I propose simply making it more easily accessible, for example, by making it available on a main menu, or even as its own mode. In I understand. In fact the solution would be to do a three pages document MFSK-SSTV easy with Multipsk in the same way as I do with ALE. dialog box for image types, and in the case of MultiPSK and PocketDigi, it would send the RSID for MFSK. It is sure very comfortable to receive a RS ID as the tuning is immediatly perfect. But you would need a specific QRG for these pictures... 73 Patrick - Original Message - From: Leigh L Klotz, Jr. To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 8:17 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Patrick, Yes, but MultiPSK and DRM780 and fldigi and other programs already support MFSK and other modes. My point is that few know about MFSK picture mode, even though it is implemented in many programs, because it is accessible only when in MFSK mode and is hard to find. So, I propose simply making it more easily accessible, for example, by making it available on a main menu, or even as its own mode. In reality, it would simply be MFSK and would start with the Open File dialog box for image types, and in the case of MultiPSK and PocketDigi, it would send the RSID for MFSK. Leigh/WA5ZNU On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:48 pm, Patrick Lindecker wrote: Hello Leigh, RR for all. is mostly a UI thing, allowing people in Olivia or some other mode of about the same bandwidth to initiate an MFSK picture transmission Yes but it would need a MFSK decoder (to decode the SSTV prefix) plus the Olivia decoder. It would be better to do MFSK16 (+MFSK SSTV) only. 73 Patrick - Original Message - From: Leigh L Klotz, Jr. To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 10:16 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Right, ypu need the size, not just the fact that it is the mode. However, if you just use the MFSK code and then send the size info in MFSK, it would be 100% compatible with existing implementations. So, it is mostly a UI thing, allowing people in Olivia or some other mode of about the same bandwidth to initiate an MFSK picture transmission without the cognitive overhead of switching to MFSK. PSK users probably wouldn't want to do this unless there is enough clear bandwidth available. 73, Leigh/WA5ZNU On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:54 am, Patrick Lindecker wrote: Hello Leigh, RSID is now available in open source C++ pocketdigi so I suspect it will RSID define modes and has a limited number of combinations available. Here you would need perhaps 24 bits to define all the information needed. So a more classical (hard decision instead of soft decision) and a bigger RS coding would be necessary, which is not a big problem but days are too short... 73 Patrick - Original Message - From: Leigh L Klotz, Jr. To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 5:49 AM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Patrick, The advantage of the MFSK analog picture mode is that it is already widely implemented, and almost all implementors of MFSK have it. Your RSID is now available in open source C++ pocketdigi so I suspect it will be incorporated into more programs as well. Put the two together and the mode will be widely available fairly soon. 73, Leigh/WA5ZNU On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 3:14 pm, Patrick Lindecker wrote: Sholto, Patrick, I just assumed that a digital SSTV mode in 500Hz that could send a decent size picture in a reasonable amount of time was impossible. With a standard modulation and a standard compression scheme you are perfectly right, but, perhaps, with some modulation as the one used by Cesco for FDMDV and a very powerful compression scheme, it's perhaps possible. A big challenge in all cases. Then error correction could also be applied... Yes, it would be ideal. 73 Patrick - Original Message - From: Sholto Fisher To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 11:56 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Patrick, I just assumed that a digital SSTV mode in 500Hz that could send a decent size picture in a reasonable amount of time was impossible. Certainly if it is possible then it would make more sense to look at that approach. Then error correction could also be applied... 73, Sholto KE7HPV. - Original Message - From: Patrick Lindecker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations
In the US, we can send images in 500Hz bandwidth in the cw/data segments of the band, but if the bandwidth is higher than 500Hz, we must move to the phone bands. Andy is trying to foster a set of image operations down in what works out to be in the US data segment, so if we want to play, we have to do it in 500Hz. There was a discusion of OFDM recently here and I thought the upshot was that the throughput for 500Hz coding using multiple QAM carriers in 500 Hz would result in transfer times too long, so I suggested maybe we try making the MFSK analog mode more readily available. The DRM stuff is quite exciting and I hope to try it out sometime, but for now at least, it will have to be in the image/phone band, where we then can't do kbd-to-kbd data. Leigh/WA5ZNU And no, I don't want to start another debate on the FCC regulations. On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 1:59 pm, Simon Brown wrote: It could be done in 500 Hz - why are you looking for the 500Hz bandwidth? Simon Brown, HB9DRV - Original Message - From: Leigh L Klotz, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] I didn't know it fit iin 500Hz. I will go look again. This is JPEG2000 coding? If it fits, it is more interesting than MFSK's analog mode, but MFSK's analog has the deployment advantage. Announce your digital presence via our Interactive Sked Page at http://www.obriensweb.com/sked DRCC contest info : http://www.obriensweb.com/drcc.htm Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations
Hey Patrick! NOOO.it's cluttered..really. You fall back onto that old song of yours about not being a specialist, which I take in this context to mean talented enough, to work with the GUI. I don't believe that for a minute, my good man. Working the GUI may not be one of your more interesting chores and you may not have a clue as to an improved layout, but don't tell me you don't have the talent to handle it. I don't have the talent for it I think. I've been on this planet 60-plus years now; I can tell when someone is blowing smoke in my directionwell, usually...uh...most of the time. Best Regards, Sir Howard W6IDS Richmond, IN - Original Message - From: Patrick Lindecker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 4:16 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Hello Howard, SNIP SNIP But I understand that you think it is cluttered. It is simply complex (as digital modes are not always very simple). However I'm not a specialist of programs and GUI. Anyway we have the chance to have a big diversity of excellent programs, so... 73 Patrick
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations
I don't have a problem with various kinds of UI, but I do know some people care intensely. One of the things I hope to accomplish with the znudigi experiment is a separation of modem from UI. I amworking with several different UI designs for znudigi clients, and hoping that others will too. Eventually, I hope the protocol is the outcome, and it gets incorporated into existing programs, such as fldigi, and perhaps even MultiPSK, so that alternate or special-purpose interfaces or applications can be built by those who consider themselves specialists in their areas, without having to delve too far afield. In other words, I am proposing modularity. 73 es GL, Leigh/WA5ZNU
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations
Leigh, I have not been following this SSTV discussion very closely as I got the impression that it was analog SSTV when MMSSTV was mentioned as a program. Or is this actually digital SSTV? Can you give us a capsule account? Do you have any knowledge of any tests that have been done between RFSM2400 and the WinDRM/EasyPal type of OFDM? Even though this has to be done in the voice/image portions of the bands here in the U.S., it just does not add up that no one has done this kind of testing yet. And I have asked about this repeatedly. Are you or anyone else interested in doing these kinds of tests? I just recently got the capability to key up some of these modes (and most any sound card mode) from 160 to 6 meters, but on some bands with minimal antenna capability. Mostly ground mounted Butternut vertical. One of the very helpful things about the voice bands is that you can make contact on voice and then transmit the digital image on the same frequency. Very convenient if a problem comes up. The only down side is that you need reasonable good signals. But then again, I think we are going to find that for the most part, we will need fairly good signals for these fast modes. WinDRM and EasyPal require something around +8 dB S/N although the STANAG modems are supposed to be able to go much below that point. We may be able to partially simulate that by reducing power. Speaking of power, I can run well over 100 watts on most of the digital modes as I do have an Ameritron ALS-600 amplifier. For those who are thinking that this is an SSTV experiment, it really is more of a surrogate for the modem type. The only reason for using image data instead of text data is to meet the requirements here in the U.S. 73, Rick, KV9U Leigh L Klotz, Jr. wrote: In the US, we can send images in 500Hz bandwidth in the cw/data segments of the band, but if the bandwidth is higher than 500Hz, we must move to the phone bands. Andy is trying to foster a set of image operations down in what works out to be in the US data segment, so if we want to play, we have to do it in 500Hz. There was a discusion of OFDM recently here and I thought the upshot was that the throughput for 500Hz coding using multiple QAM carriers in 500 Hz would result in transfer times too long, so I suggested maybe we try making the MFSK analog mode more readily available. The DRM stuff is quite exciting and I hope to try it out sometime, but for now at least, it will have to be in the image/phone band, where we then can't do kbd-to-kbd data.
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations
Hello Leigh, RSID is now available in open source C++ pocketdigi so I suspect it will RSID define modes and has a limited number of combinations available. Here you would need perhaps 24 bits to define all the information needed. So a more classical (hard decision instead of soft decision) and a bigger RS coding would be necessary, which is not a big problem but days are too short... 73 Patrick - Original Message - From: Leigh L Klotz, Jr. To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 5:49 AM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Patrick, The advantage of the MFSK analog picture mode is that it is already widely implemented, and almost all implementors of MFSK have it. Your RSID is now available in open source C++ pocketdigi so I suspect it will be incorporated into more programs as well. Put the two together and the mode will be widely available fairly soon. 73, Leigh/WA5ZNU On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 3:14 pm, Patrick Lindecker wrote: Sholto, Patrick, I just assumed that a digital SSTV mode in 500Hz that could send a decent size picture in a reasonable amount of time was impossible. With a standard modulation and a standard compression scheme you are perfectly right, but, perhaps, with some modulation as the one used by Cesco for FDMDV and a very powerful compression scheme, it's perhaps possible. A big challenge in all cases. Then error correction could also be applied... Yes, it would be ideal. 73 Patrick - Original Message - From: Sholto Fisher To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 11:56 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Patrick, I just assumed that a digital SSTV mode in 500Hz that could send a decent size picture in a reasonable amount of time was impossible. Certainly if it is possible then it would make more sense to look at that approach. Then error correction could also be applied... 73, Sholto KE7HPV. - Original Message - From: Patrick Lindecker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Hello Sholto, MFSK SSTV is an analogical SSTV mode with the originality that it is a narrow band SSTV mode (the same as MFSK) and the format of the picture is free (small or big as you want). It would be possible to put some RS prefix (with more bits available than for RS ID) to define the center frequency, format and color. But I'm not sure that the gain would be important as this type of SSTV is an old technology. Better would be a Digital SSTV within 500 Hz and as fast as standard SSTV. 73 Patrick
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations
Hi David: right click the modes and you will get new modes. Garrett / AA0OI - Original Message From: wd4kpd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:11:31 PM Subject: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations regarding those narrow modes in mmsstvhow do i access themdoesnt seem to be any access menu ? david/wd4kpd Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations
Right, ypu need the size, not just the fact that it is the mode. However, if you just use the MFSK code and then send the size info in MFSK, it would be 100% compatible with existing implementations. So, it is mostly a UI thing, allowing people in Olivia or some other mode of about the same bandwidth to initiate an MFSK picture transmission without the cognitive overhead of switching to MFSK. PSK users probably wouldn't want to do this unless there is enough clear bandwidth available. 73, Leigh/WA5ZNU On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:54 am, Patrick Lindecker wrote: Hello Leigh, RSID is now available in open source C++ pocketdigi so I suspect it will RSID define modes and has a limited number of combinations available. Here you would need perhaps 24 bits to define all the information needed. So a more classical (hard decision instead of soft decision) and a bigger RS coding would be necessary, which is not a big problem but days are too short... 73 Patrick - Original Message - From: Leigh L Klotz, Jr. To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 5:49 AM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Patrick, The advantage of the MFSK analog picture mode is that it is already widely implemented, and almost all implementors of MFSK have it. Your RSID is now available in open source C++ pocketdigi so I suspect it will be incorporated into more programs as well. Put the two together and the mode will be widely available fairly soon. 73, Leigh/WA5ZNU On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 3:14 pm, Patrick Lindecker wrote: Sholto, Patrick, I just assumed that a digital SSTV mode in 500Hz that could send a decent size picture in a reasonable amount of time was impossible. With a standard modulation and a standard compression scheme you are perfectly right, but, perhaps, with some modulation as the one used by Cesco for FDMDV and a very powerful compression scheme, it's perhaps possible. A big challenge in all cases. Then error correction could also be applied... Yes, it would be ideal. 73 Patrick - Original Message - From: Sholto Fisher To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 11:56 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Patrick, I just assumed that a digital SSTV mode in 500Hz that could send a decent size picture in a reasonable amount of time was impossible. Certainly if it is possible then it would make more sense to look at that approach. Then error correction could also be applied... 73, Sholto KE7HPV. - Original Message - From: Patrick Lindecker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Hello Sholto, MFSK SSTV is an analogical SSTV mode with the originality that it is a narrow band SSTV mode (the same as MFSK) and the format of the picture is free (small or big as you want). It would be possible to put some RS prefix (with more bits available than for RS ID) to define the center frequency, format and color. But I'm not sure that the gain would be important as this type of SSTV is an old technology. Better would be a Digital SSTV within 500 Hz and as fast as standard SSTV. 73 Patrick
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations
On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:11:31 -, you wrote: regarding those narrow modes in mmsstvhow do i access themdoesnt seem to be any access menu ? Right click on a mode button yuou want to redefine, and a long list of modes appear. The narrow modes is in the lower end. -- OV1A Jens Solar Cycle 24 has arrived!
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations
Sholto, Patrick, I just assumed that a digital SSTV mode in 500Hz that could send a decent size picture in a reasonable amount of time was impossible. With a standard modulation and a standard compression scheme you are perfectly right, but, perhaps, with some modulation as the one used by Cesco for FDMDV and a very powerful compression scheme, it's perhaps possible. A big challenge in all cases. Then error correction could also be applied... Yes, it would be ideal. 73 Patrick - Original Message - From: Sholto Fisher To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 11:56 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Patrick, I just assumed that a digital SSTV mode in 500Hz that could send a decent size picture in a reasonable amount of time was impossible. Certainly if it is possible then it would make more sense to look at that approach. Then error correction could also be applied... 73, Sholto KE7HPV. - Original Message - From: Patrick Lindecker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Hello Sholto, MFSK SSTV is an analogical SSTV mode with the originality that it is a narrow band SSTV mode (the same as MFSK) and the format of the picture is free (small or big as you want). It would be possible to put some RS prefix (with more bits available than for RS ID) to define the center frequency, format and color. But I'm not sure that the gain would be important as this type of SSTV is an old technology. Better would be a Digital SSTV within 500 Hz and as fast as standard SSTV. 73 Patrick
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations
Hello Sholto, MFSK SSTV is an analogical SSTV mode with the originality that it is a narrow band SSTV mode (the same as MFSK) and the format of the picture is free (small or big as you want). It would be possible to put some RS prefix (with more bits available than for RS ID) to define the center frequency, format and color. But I'm not sure that the gain would be important as this type of SSTV is an old technology. Better would be a Digital SSTV within 500 Hz and as fast as standard SSTV. 73 Patrick For information the specifications of SSTV in MFSK16 SSTV in MFSK16 Created by : Nick Fedoseev (UT2UZ) and Denis Nechitailov (UU9JDR) in 2003 Description : It is a SSTV mode without transmission of a synchronization ray, in color or in black and white mode, where the picture may be transmitted among MFSK16 text. The picture format is not fixed as in classical SSTV but variable (limited to small pictures). Multipsk proposes to use the standard 320x256 to take advantage of the SSTV workshop and the stored SSTV pictures. The band of frequencies used is 234,375 Hz (15 x 15,625 Hz), which is the width between extreme peaks of a MFSK16 transmission. The duration of a pixel is exactly 1 ms. In color mode, the colors are transmitted in the following order: Red, Green, Blue. In black and white mode, the black color corresponds to the lower frequency and the white color to the higher frequency. To be recognized, the picture must be MFSK16 prefixed by: * Pic:320x256C; for example for a color picture of 320x256 dimension whose transmission will last 320x256x3x0,001=246 sec, * Pic:320x256; for example for a black and white picture of 320x256 dimension whose transmission will last 320x256x1x0,001=82 sec. - Original Message - From: Sholto Fisher To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 4:45 AM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Yes I never quite understood why it only appeared as an MFSK thing. I guess it was because it shares a similar bandwidth with it. I think using a transmitted header (similar to Patrick's Reed Solomon sequence) at the start would be a better way to define picture size colors and it provides an automatic tuning reference - which will be important because unlike regular SSTV you don't really know in advance where the tones are going to be in the narrow digital areas of the bands. 73, Sholto KE7HPV. - Original Message - From: Leigh L Klotz, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 7:37 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations The MFSK picture mode isn't tied to MFSK in any logical way, only in the programs. It doesn't use MFSK modulation for the picture, for example. I think your plan is good and intend to put it into place, but others with production digimode programs are better situated to do it now. 73, Leigh/WA5ZNI On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 7:34 pm, Sholto Fisher wrote: Andy, I agree with you - it would be nice to have a general purpose narrow bandwidth image mode which could be used in a stand alone fashion. The problem with MFSK16 SSTV is that it is tied to MFSK16 and you can't receive it if you didn't catch the MFSK Pic: command. Perhaps one of the programmers who frequent this group could invent an analog 500Hz SSTV mode that allows someone listening to start receiving even if they missed the initial Pic: command plus some form of automatic header (like SSTV has now) or Patrick's RS-ID for easy tuning and correct submode selection? 73, Sholto KE7HPV. Announce your digital presence via our Interactive Sked Page at http://www.obriensweb.com/sked DRCC contest info : http://www.obriensweb.com/drcc.htm Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations
Jens, Thanks for information. I had absolutely no idea there was already a narrow band SSTV mode in MMSSTV. Just shows no matter how long you've been a ham there is always something new to learn! I am guessing then that this mode would be legal now on 30m in FCC areas as well as Region 1? I will have to try it out soon! By the way Jens, I have the autospotters running with a higher squelch value which should cut down on some of the busted calls on my spot pages. At some point soon I will enable a filter to exclude autospots if you wish. 73, Sholto KE7HPV. - Original Message - From: Jens Petersen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:19 AM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 19:33:54 -0800, you wrote: Andy, I agree with you - it would be nice to have a general purpose narrow bandwidth image mode which could be used in a stand alone fashion. The problem with MFSK16 SSTV is that it is tied to MFSK16 and you can't receive it if you didn't catch the MFSK Pic: command. Perhaps one of the programmers who frequent this group could invent an analog 500Hz SSTV mode that allows someone listening to start receiving even if they missed the initial Pic: command plus some form of automatic header (like SSTV has now) or Patrick's RS-ID for easy tuning and correct submode selection? In MMSSTV ver. 1.11G there is 6 narrow SSTV modes (ex. MP140-N), they works as fine as the wide modes, but takes longer time for the same quality. Let's use it on 7.038 (zone 1) and 10.140 -- OV1A Jens Solar Cycle 24 has arrived!
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations
Patrick, I just assumed that a digital SSTV mode in 500Hz that could send a decent size picture in a reasonable amount of time was impossible. Certainly if it is possible then it would make more sense to look at that approach. Then error correction could also be applied... 73, Sholto KE7HPV. - Original Message - From: Patrick Lindecker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Hello Sholto, MFSK SSTV is an analogical SSTV mode with the originality that it is a narrow band SSTV mode (the same as MFSK) and the format of the picture is free (small or big as you want). It would be possible to put some RS prefix (with more bits available than for RS ID) to define the center frequency, format and color. But I'm not sure that the gain would be important as this type of SSTV is an old technology. Better would be a Digital SSTV within 500 Hz and as fast as standard SSTV. 73 Patrick
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations
Patrick, The advantage of the MFSK analog picture mode is that it is already widely implemented, and almost all implementors of MFSK have it. Your RSID is now available in open source C++ pocketdigi so I suspect it will be incorporated into more programs as well. Put the two together and the mode will be widely available fairly soon. 73, Leigh/WA5ZNU On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 3:14 pm, Patrick Lindecker wrote: Sholto, Patrick, I just assumed that a digital SSTV mode in 500Hz that could send a decent size picture in a reasonable amount of time was impossible. With a standard modulation and a standard compression scheme you are perfectly right, but, perhaps, with some modulation as the one used by Cesco for FDMDV and a very powerful compression scheme, it's perhaps possible. A big challenge in all cases. Then error correction could also be applied... Yes, it would be ideal. 73 Patrick - Original Message - From: Sholto Fisher To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 11:56 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Patrick, I just assumed that a digital SSTV mode in 500Hz that could send a decent size picture in a reasonable amount of time was impossible. Certainly if it is possible then it would make more sense to look at that approach. Then error correction could also be applied... 73, Sholto KE7HPV. - Original Message - From: Patrick Lindecker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations Hello Sholto, MFSK SSTV is an analogical SSTV mode with the originality that it is a narrow band SSTV mode (the same as MFSK) and the format of the picture is free (small or big as you want). It would be possible to put some RS prefix (with more bits available than for RS ID) to define the center frequency, format and color. But I'm not sure that the gain would be important as this type of SSTV is an old technology. Better would be a Digital SSTV within 500 Hz and as fast as standard SSTV. 73 Patrick
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations
I'm writing analogue SSTV code and testing on 20m / 80m. I rarely hear any SSB at all on 14.230 / 3.730 . http://www.hb9drv.ch/sstv/sstv.htm BTW - anyone using SSTV on 40m in Europe - if so what frequency? Simon Brown, HB9DRV - Original Message - From: Brad [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't know what your problem is, that's EXACTLY how it operates in VK on the main and repeater frequencies. Very little SSB is heard, and then that is from JA or EU. We use 14230, 14236, 14227, 7171 and 10132.
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations
On 20M currently, there are two stations. They send a picture, chat via phone SSB about the picture I've got 645 cartoons . They pause occasionally, invite other on frequency Anyone around that wants to send a picture? . They then announce which mode they are about to send in, then they have another chat about how the picture was received. Sometimes the weather of football games are also talked about. Toght now it is... I'm looking at train you just sent, your slant is off a bit. Your sound card may need calibrating , then a conversation about how to calibrate a picture ensued. While this is perfectly legitimate, I'm just looking to start SSTV without the chatter. Andy. On Jan 19, 2008 3:53 PM, Simon Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm writing analogue SSTV code and testing on 20m / 80m. I rarely hear any SSB at all on 14.230 / 3.730 . http://www.hb9drv.ch/sstv/sstv.htm BTW - anyone using SSTV on 40m in Europe - if so what frequency? Simon Brown, HB9DRV - Original Message - From: Brad [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't know what your problem is, that's EXACTLY how it operates in VK on the main and repeater frequencies. Very little SSB is heard, and then that is from JA or EU. We use 14230, 14236, 14227, 7171 and 10132. -- Andy K3UK www.obriensweb.com (QSL via N2RJ)
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations
I have quiet enjoyed the few MFSK pix I have sent, narrowband. The chatter is all via MFSK, and the bandwidth is narrow, of course. Fldigi implements it so DRM780 might as well. 73, Leigh/WA5ZNU On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 2:39 pm, Andrew O'Brien wrote: On 20M currently, there are two stations. They send a picture, chat via phone SSB about the picture I've got 645 cartoons . They pause occasionally, invite other on frequency Anyone around that wants to send a picture? . They then announce which mode they are about to send in, then they have another chat about how the picture was received. Sometimes the weather of football games are also talked about. Toght now it is... I'm looking at train you just sent, your slant is off a bit. Your sound card may need calibrating , then a conversation about how to calibrate a picture ensued. While this is perfectly legitimate, I'm just looking to start SSTV without the chatter. Andy. On Jan 19, 2008 3:53 PM, Simon Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm writing analogue SSTV code and testing on 20m / 80m. I rarely hear any SSB at all on 14.230 / 3.730 . http://www.hb9drv.ch/sstv/sstv.htm BTW - anyone using SSTV on 40m in Europe - if so what frequency? Simon Brown, HB9DRV - Original Message - From: Brad [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't know what your problem is, that's EXACTLY how it operates in VK on the main and repeater frequencies. Very little SSB is heard, and then that is from JA or EU. We use 14230, 14236, 14227, 7171 and 10132. -- Andy K3UK www.obriensweb.com (QSL via N2RJ) Announce your digital presence via our Interactive Sked Page at http://www.obriensweb.com/sked DRCC contest info : http://www.obriensweb.com/drcc.htm Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations
Andy, I agree with you - it would be nice to have a general purpose narrow bandwidth image mode which could be used in a stand alone fashion. The problem with MFSK16 SSTV is that it is tied to MFSK16 and you can't receive it if you didn't catch the MFSK Pic: command. Perhaps one of the programmers who frequent this group could invent an analog 500Hz SSTV mode that allows someone listening to start receiving even if they missed the initial Pic: command plus some form of automatic header (like SSTV has now) or Patrick's RS-ID for easy tuning and correct submode selection? 73, Sholto KE7HPV.
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations
Yes I never quite understood why it only appeared as an MFSK thing. I guess it was because it shares a similar bandwidth with it. I think using a transmitted header (similar to Patrick's Reed Solomon sequence) at the start would be a better way to define picture size colors and it provides an automatic tuning reference - which will be important because unlike regular SSTV you don't really know in advance where the tones are going to be in the narrow digital areas of the bands. 73, Sholto KE7HPV. - Original Message - From: Leigh L Klotz, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 7:37 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Redefining SSTV operations The MFSK picture mode isn't tied to MFSK in any logical way, only in the programs. It doesn't use MFSK modulation for the picture, for example. I think your plan is good and intend to put it into place, but others with production digimode programs are better situated to do it now. 73, Leigh/WA5ZNI On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 7:34 pm, Sholto Fisher wrote: Andy, I agree with you - it would be nice to have a general purpose narrow bandwidth image mode which could be used in a stand alone fashion. The problem with MFSK16 SSTV is that it is tied to MFSK16 and you can't receive it if you didn't catch the MFSK Pic: command. Perhaps one of the programmers who frequent this group could invent an analog 500Hz SSTV mode that allows someone listening to start receiving even if they missed the initial Pic: command plus some form of automatic header (like SSTV has now) or Patrick's RS-ID for easy tuning and correct submode selection? 73, Sholto KE7HPV. Announce your digital presence via our Interactive Sked Page at http://www.obriensweb.com/sked DRCC contest info : http://www.obriensweb.com/drcc.htm Yahoo! Groups Links
