Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[Joel Madero]

>> If you are promoting LO because it provides better interoperability,
>> shouldn't they be configured as equivalents? You could even prompt users
>> on save. Would this break something?
> I do not know, as I am not a developer. I have configured my instance of
> LibreOffice to replace Calibri and Cambria with Carlito and Caladea
> (there is a replacement table in Options > LibreOffice > Fonts). I will
> ask developers is this specific replacement, given the pervasiveness of
> Calibri and Cambria, can be set as a pre-defined option.
IMHO this isn't a good thing. Lots of people expect that LibreOffice
would just use the font that is installed. So, for those users using
LibreOffice in Windows or in OSX who have access to the MSO fonts, would
definitely expect that opening a document that someone else sends your
way open with the correct fonts applied.

We already have enough issues with interoperability with MS Office -
going out of our way to add yet another (a replacement font even if you
have the correct font installed presumably legally) seems like asking
for trouble.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the replacement table but if it's "replace,
even if font is installed" - I'm no fan.


Best,
Joel

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[tdf-discuss] Re: OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[Marc Paré]

Le 2016-04-27 16:55, Simon Phipps a écrit :




I can't speak to a general recommendation, but this advice from Debian to
use Google's compatible free fonts seems good:

https://wiki.debian.org/SubstitutingCalibriAndCambriaFonts

In fact it makes me wonder if these could be the default equivalents for
the C-fonts in LibreOffice?

S.



Thanks for this information Simon.

Not sure if this is found anywhere on the LibreOffice sites/wiki, IMO, 
it would be useful information to many LibreOffice users.


Marc

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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[Mike Hall]

On 27/04/2016 21:57, Italo Vignoli wrote:

In fact, they are provided as equivalents, although the software is not
configured to handle them as equivalents.
If you are promoting LO because it provides better interoperability, 
shouldn't they be configured as equivalents? You could even prompt users 
on save. Would this break something?



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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[Italo Vignoli]

On 27/04/2016 22:55, Simon Phipps wrote:

> In fact it makes me wonder if these could be the default equivalents for
> the C-fonts in LibreOffice?

In fact, they are provided as equivalents, although the software is not
configured to handle them as equivalents.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[Simon Phipps]

On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 9:44 PM, Mike Hall  wrote:

> On 27/04/2016 21:18, Italo Vignoli wrote:
>
>> By using C-Fonts, you are therefore producing documents with limited
>> interoperability
>> C-Fonts are not interoperable also in technical terms,
>>
> That's good information.
>
> Does TDF have a recommendation for which fonts to use to maximise
> interoperability across the common range of OS's? (Quite complex if you
> include iOS and Android as well as Win, Mac, nix). Not sure if the generic
> 'sans-serif' etc do what the normal user wants.


I can't speak to a general recommendation, but this advice from Debian to
use Google's compatible free fonts seems good:

https://wiki.debian.org/SubstitutingCalibriAndCambriaFonts

In fact it makes me wonder if these could be the default equivalents for
the C-fonts in LibreOffice?

S.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[Mike Hall]

On 27/04/2016 21:18, Italo Vignoli wrote:

By using C-Fonts, you are therefore producing documents with limited
interoperability
C-Fonts are not interoperable also in technical terms,

That's good information.

Does TDF have a recommendation for which fonts to use to maximise 
interoperability across the common range of OS's? (Quite complex if you 
include iOS and Android as well as Win, Mac, nix). Not sure if the 
generic 'sans-serif' etc do what the normal user wants.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[Italo Vignoli]

Yes, the fonts come with Windows, but not with other operating systems.
On MacOS, they are legally available with MS Office installed. On Linux,
they are not available at all.

C-Fonts cannot be legally embedded, although they can be mechanically
embedded (and no one warns you about the legal risks). If you receive a
document which embeds a C-Font, the font may end up being installed on
your system (even if you are not allowed to use it because you do not
own a license). Microsoft can legally pursue the owner of the C-Font
license.

By using C-Fonts, you are therefore producing documents with limited
interoperability, even if you are legally allowed to use them (as you
own a Windows license).

C-Fonts are not interoperable also in technical terms, as they have a
peculiar metric size, which is difficult to emulate. This means that a
document where a C-Font is replaced with another font will be visually
different, to the point that many users will believe that contents are
not the same.

I hope this helps.

On 27/04/2016 20:43, Mike Hall wrote:
> On 27/04/2016 13:42, Italo Vignoli wrote:
>> Several people at TDF have been involved in the decision process and
>> have contributed specific evidence about ODF and OOXML
> I zapped your last message, but I wondered whether it was necessary to
> have an MSO licence to use Calibri etc. This windows PC, originally Win
> 7, now Win 10 has all the MS fonts but has never had MSO installed,
> which seems to imply it's Windows rather than Office that brings in the
> fonts?

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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[Mike Hall]

On 27/04/2016 13:42, Italo Vignoli wrote:

Several people at TDF have been involved in the decision process and
have contributed specific evidence about ODF and OOXML
I zapped your last message, but I wondered whether it was necessary to 
have an MSO licence to use Calibri etc. This windows PC, originally Win 
7, now Win 10 has all the MS fonts but has never had MSO installed, 
which seems to imply it's Windows rather than Office that brings in the 
fonts?



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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[Italo Vignoli]

On 26/04/2016 12:46, mjollni...@laposte.net wrote:

> Is it correct to say that the Transitionnal OOXML format is not
> compliant with any international standard or norm ? Neither ECMA, nor
> ISO, nor anything but MS$ itself.

OOXML Transitional is not the standard format, but a tweaked version of
OOXML integrating bynary blobs and other non standard components, which
was supposed to help the transition from the legacy file formats to
OOXML Strict (which is the only standard file format).

> If so, Does this means that NO version of MS$ office (from 2010 to
> the actual) writes BY DEFAULT in a standardized or normalised format.
>  (cf.
> https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc179191%28v=office.16%29.aspx
> for default formats)

Yes. Every Microsoft Office version since 2007 defaults to OOXML
Transitional, implementing a slightly different version of the OOXML
Transitional non standard file format.

Only MS Office 2013 and MS Office 2016 implement OOXML Strict, with a
process that makes it virtually impossible for any normal user to get a
real OOXML Strict file format (the user should save the document using
the OOXML Strict option - listed as last of the "save as" options -
before writing a single character).

Because of this behaviour which intentionally prevents the creation of
OOXML Strict files, the number of OOXML Strict files available is close
to zero.

In addition, Microsoft fonts used as default by MS Office since 2007 -
known as C-Fonts or Calibri, Cambria, Candara, Consolas, Constantia and
Corbel) - can only be used by MS Office licensed customers, as they are
included in MS Office EULA, to add another level of incompatibility.

> Is anyone confident enough in his knowledge of OOXML to acknowledge
> this ? Maybe this place is not the best one to ask the question ? If
> so, would please somebody advice me the best place to post the
> question ?

I am confident enough to answer most questions about OOXML issues.

Please do note that after the UK decision on July 22, 2014, not even
Microsoft has dared to define OOXML as standard in public, because it is
perfectly clear that the file format is not standard and will never be a
standard (after nine years and four different implementations of OOXML
Transitional, which was supposed to last a maximum of two MS Office
versions).

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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[Italo Vignoli]

On 27/04/2016 10:12, pasqual milvaques wrote:

> In the sake of documenting this, the UK Cabinet Office decision can be
> found here:
> https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/open-standards-for-government/sharing-or-collaborating-with-government-documents

Several people at TDF have been involved in the decision process and
have contributed specific evidence about ODF and OOXML - not being a
standard - to UK Cabinet Office.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[pasqual milvaques]

Hi

In the sake of documenting this, the UK Cabinet Office decision can be 
found here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/open-standards-for-government/sharing-or-collaborating-with-government-documents

In this URL there is addditional information about the supoport process:
https://standards.data.gov.uk/meeting/technical-standards-panel-meeting-17-march-2014

the main reason behind the ooxml rejection seems to be:

   We considered ODF and OpenXML in view of the UK Government
   definition of open standards, which was set following a full public
   consultation in 2012.

   ODF appeared to meet the definition. However, OpenXML did not appear
   to meet the criteria for market support - particularly regarding
   vendor independence. We found products which appear to implement
   OpenXML but only the most recent products claim to have the strict
   implementation and it is not used as a default format in any
   product. In addition, the development of the standard currently has
   limited involvement from outside a single supplier of office
   productivity suites.

Thanks

El 26/04/16 a les 19:27, Italo Vignoli ha escrit:

On 26/04/2016 15:09, pasqual milvaques wrote:


The 'transitional' variant of ooxml is specified in Part 4 of ISO/IEC
29500 so it's standard, it's supposed that the features of the
transitional variant ease the transition from older formats, I'm not
sure if there is a plan for making the strict variant the default in MS
Office, in Office 2016 it's not yet

OOXML Transitional is definitely not recognized as a standard, and is
specified in Part 4 of ISO/IEC 29500 exactly because is not a standard
(to make it clear how it differs from the standard). OOXML Transitional
was accepted to ease the transition to the standard, and as such should
have lasted only a few years, while it has been used by Microsoft as the
default OOXML format since forever. In addition, OOXML Transitional is
different for each version of MS Office, and the differences are not
documented (only the first OOXML Transitional was documented).

In addition, OOXML Strict - which is the ONLY accepted standard - is
almost impossible to obtain by normal users, as the process is far from
the usual one, as in order to have an OOXML Strict you must save the
document before performing ANY action (as otherwise the format switches
to OOXML Transitional, which is not a standard).

UK Cabinet Office has clearly documented the reasons why OOXML is not a
standard file format.




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