Re: [Elecraft] AX-1 -- with and without counterpoise

[Howard Hoyt via Elecraft]

Hi all,

Over at the Elecraft-KX io group, being QRP all the time we had this 
discussion a while back and I wanted to repost a post I made with a 
useful link, I think it is germane to this discussion:


--

https://elecraft-kx.groups.io/g/main/topic/90090191#72021

posted by Howard Hoyt - Mar 28, 2022 #72021

Hi all,
I thought I'd start this thread since some posts regarding antennas in 
general were pretty much OT.  Subjective reports we see in groups all 
the time although great for expressing enthusiasm for ham radio 
operation in general, carry little information others can use to 
evaluate antenna performance.


Like many other hams I studied Maxwell's equations in EE school (too 
many years ago), and they define the characteristics of electromagnetic 
waves pretty thoroughly.  I am sure modern antenna engineers utilize 
them to perfect antenna designs and many hams may be talented enough to 
use this approach.  However this many years after Uni. I only have the 
time and brain power to use more cookbook approaches, and like many 
people I learn faster with visual aids.


With this in mind, and specifically regarding the oddly controversial 
aspect of two-pole radiation (radiator and so-called counterpoise) I 
wanted to share this YouTube video by Frank Rutter / K3AW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEigIMS6bo4
He does a masterful job of presenting many aspects of antenna 
performance using a 3 GHz model, which has a wavelength short enough to 
allow the antenna and ground plane (counterpoise) to fit on a table for 
demonstration.  I highly recommend setting aside an hour, grabbing a 
beverage and watching the entire 1:08:27 video, it may be the best 
expenditure of your time this week.  My single critique of the 
demonstration is I wish he had a big meter to show the signal changes as 
he changes the setup.


Relative to recent discussions regarding counterpoises here, Frank shows 
how a lossy counterpoise (his model for earth) diminishes antenna 
performance at the 10:00 mark.  At the 30:00-minute mark he explains the 
proliferation of stacked beams.  At 1:03:00 he explains that an inverted 
"L" can result in RF at the operating position, due to common-mode 
currents.  This Inverted "L" configuration resembles how many portable 
end-fed antennas end up being deployed due to necessity.  Also he 
demonstrates how at commonly deployed heights they show a propensity for 
high-angle radiation, good for close in to medium range communications, 
not so much for DX.


Part of the value in Frank's demonstration is the relative, but direct 
comparisons of the different antenna configurations in identical 
locations.  We do not have this luxury when operating from a hilltop or 
at the beach, so we have to apply best practices to maximize results, 
and in this way ideas from his demonstrations can be valuable to us.


As an additional note: I have learned a lot about designing antennas by 
modeling them using EZNEC.  After years selling and supporting the 
software, Roy Lewallen / W7EL has given the package to us for free and 
available here:

https://www.eznec.com
I highly recommend getting this software and learning to use it.  If you 
are truly interested in maximizing your antenna knowledge and 
performance, it will be time well spent.
 
Anyone interested in the KX rigs or AX antennas should join our group, 
over 6000 strong and growing.


Cheers & 73,
Howie / WA4PSC
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Re: [Elecraft] K3/K3S Options Last time buy update

[Linda M]

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[Elecraft] Elecraft CW Net Report

[kevin]

Good Evening,

    Conditions were so so on both bands.  Noise was down, QSB was 
moderate, and signals were medium too.  Forty meter was not as strong as 
I had expected.  Fire danger is high in Oregon, less so in California.  
They had some rain last week.  The smoke came back this morning when the 
wind changed direction.  Rain would be nice, fog will do.



  On 14050.5 kHz at 2200z:

W0CZ - Ken - ND

NO8V - John - MI

K4JPN - Steve - GA

K6XK - Roy - IA

AB9V - Mike - IN


  On 7047.5 kHz at z:

K0DTJ - Brian - CA

WM5F - Dwight - ID

W0CZ - Ken - ND

K6PJV - Dale - CA


   Until next week 73,

  Kevin.  KD5ONS




-







Everything that exists is in a manner the seed of that which will be.








2 + 2  can equal  11





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[Elecraft] 80M Elecraft SSB Net

[Dave New]

Sunday 9pm ET (summer and winter) on 3775 kHz

Thanks to these checkins and relays:

WB9JNZ Eric IL (sorry didn't write down the rig, was it  
the K3S or the K4?)

W5SV   Dave K4D TX
WM6P   SteveK4D GA
WD6CQO Marshall Kenwood TX (sorry couldn't copy the Kenwood model)

73,

-- Dave, N8SBE


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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Ed Hopton via Elecraft]

Ghost or Carolina Reaper chilies, yes! RF or poison oak...NO!
73,
Ed N3CMI


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of Hank via Elecraft
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2022 7:13 PM
To: Wayne Burdick 
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

Sometimes the burn feels good!

> On Sep 25, 2022, at 7:17 PM, Wayne Burdick  wrote:
> 
> No. But try on a little poison oak followed by a hot shower. OMG. That’s the 
> nice burn. 
> 
> 
> elecraft.com
> 
>> On Sep 25, 2022, at 12:11 PM, Fred Jensen  wrote:
>> 
>> There is no such thing as a "nice" RF burn.
>> 
>> 73,
>> 
>> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
>> Sparks NV DM09dn
>> Washoe County
>> 
>> Steve L wrote on 9/24/2022 6:36 PM:
>>> Caution when using this location:  Make sure your counterpoise is insulated 
>>> and there’s no way to contact bare metal at this point with your hand when 
>>> using the KX2 hand-held ‘walkie-talkie’ style.  I received a nice RF burn 
>>> on my hand at this point once!
>>> 
>>> Steve
>>> AA8AF
>>> 
> On Sep 24, 2022, at 3:37 PM, Dan Presley  wrote:
 
 The other nice feature of the KX2 is the mini banana jack on the side of 
 the radio for attaching the counterpoise . It’s perfect for pedestrian 
 mobile and should you encounter some sort of snag it’ll pop out before the 
 wire breaks.Wayne can better comment than me,but I believe the resonance 
 of the AX1 (or AX2 I presume) it’s not right within the 20M band, but 
 close. The auto tuner easily takes care of matching and as Wayne mentioned 
 earlier compensates for all of the other variables. Just a note that the 
 AX2 is a single band coil and can be modified for different bands. Plus 
 it’s even a lot lower profile than the AX1.
 If you want to see some fun videos of using the AX1 directly attached to 
 the KX2 search on YouTube for HB9BZG-SOTA from the Swiss Alps!
 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Hank via Elecraft]

Sometimes the burn feels good!

> On Sep 25, 2022, at 7:17 PM, Wayne Burdick  wrote:
> 
> No. But try on a little poison oak followed by a hot shower. OMG. That’s the 
> nice burn. 
> 
> 
> elecraft.com
> 
>> On Sep 25, 2022, at 12:11 PM, Fred Jensen  wrote:
>> 
>> There is no such thing as a "nice" RF burn.
>> 
>> 73,
>> 
>> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
>> Sparks NV DM09dn
>> Washoe County
>> 
>> Steve L wrote on 9/24/2022 6:36 PM:
>>> Caution when using this location:  Make sure your counterpoise is insulated 
>>> and there’s no way to contact bare metal at this point with your hand when 
>>> using the KX2 hand-held ‘walkie-talkie’ style.  I received a nice RF burn 
>>> on my hand at this point once!
>>> 
>>> Steve
>>> AA8AF
>>> 
> On Sep 24, 2022, at 3:37 PM, Dan Presley  wrote:
 
 The other nice feature of the KX2 is the mini banana jack on the side of 
 the radio for attaching the counterpoise . It’s perfect for pedestrian 
 mobile and should you encounter some sort of snag it’ll pop out before the 
 wire breaks.Wayne can better comment than me,but I believe the resonance 
 of the AX1 (or AX2 I presume) it’s not right within the 20M band, but 
 close. The auto tuner easily takes care of matching and as Wayne mentioned 
 earlier compensates for all of the other variables. Just a note that the 
 AX2 is a single band coil and can be modified for different bands. Plus 
 it’s even a lot lower profile than the AX1.
 If you want to see some fun videos of using the AX1 directly attached to 
 the KX2 search on YouTube for HB9BZG-SOTA from the Swiss Alps!
 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
>> www.avg.com
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Re: [Elecraft] AX-1 -- with and without counterpoise

[David Gilbert]

That's a pretty interesting set of tests.  Thanks!

It would have been more interesting, though, if they had duplicated the 
tests without the counterpoise, and without the length of coax from the 
rig to the antenna.  My point all along has been that for these short 
loaded whips that the counterpoise is doing most of the work.  I just 
want to see how MUCH of the work it's doing.


73,
Dave   AB7E



On 9/25/2022 2:37 PM, SCOTT MCDONALD wrote:
Dave, if you’d like to see a reasonably controlled test of radiators, 
you might want to take a look at the 2002 HF Pack Vertical Antenna 
Shootout Results.  The antennas range from full size to a resistor 
with a short whip.


https://www.qsl.net/hfpack/antennas/shootoutvertical2002.html#vertical

For sure, the counterpoise was a resonant horizontal quarter wave, not 
a drag wire, and not counterpoiseless (sic), but the results were 
otherwise controlled nicely for direction using quality gear by people 
fairly knowledgeable about portable and pedestrian mobile ops.  If you 
look at the numbers you can even (kinda) infer the radiation 
resistance goes up with the square of the radiator length thing, as 
one would expect.


And while there is no AX-1 tested, there is one antenna very much like 
it in the mix, about the same length, same dimension loading coil, 
etc. (not judging here Wayne, feel free to rebut).  And it’s about 5dB 
down from a full size quarter wave under controlled conditions, not a 
surprising result.


About the only thing missing seems to be some practical use data (per 
Julia) comparing a drag wire counterpoise as actually used in the 
field with the Shootout’s single horizontal counterpoise, if someone 
hasn’t already done that. Given the interest at the time  I’d guess 
that answer might exist in HF Pack lore too - maybe someone here knows?


Scott ka9p

Make something good happen!


On Sep 25, 2022, at 3:26 PM, David Gilbert  wrote:



Personally, I only care about a pure comparison test in as controlled 
circumstances as possible.  Any practical test like you describe will 
have so many variables that it won't be useful for anything other 
than as an anecdote. "Ground" is going to be wildly different 
depending upon location.  Propagation is highly variable for distant 
reports, and if you instead use a nearby setup for reception, it will 
make a difference which direction is it relative to the trailing 
counterpoise.


Besides, lots of people have already proven they can make contacts 
with the scenario you describe, but nobody has a clue how efficient 
that might be or not be.


73,
Dave   AB7E



On 9/25/2022 12:30 PM, Julia Tuttle wrote:

Hi Dave,

I think that's a proper comparison in a physics sense, but I don't 
think it fully represents how the AX1 is deployed in practice.


I would run both an ideal scenario -- the one you described -- amd a 
practical scenario -- something like a KX3 + internal batteries on a 
picnic table, AX1 on the bipod, and the counterpoise trailing down 
to and across the ground.


73,

Julie

On Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 15:19 David Gilbert  wrote:


   To be a proper comparison, the AX1 needs to be out it the clear away
   from anything else, preferable at a height that allows the
   counterpoise
   to be hanging straight down with the end maybe a foot or two off the
   ground.  Measurements should be with the AX1 at the same height above
   the ground without and without the counterpoise. Ideally a KX2 or
   similar rig should used, be battery powered (with very short leads if
   external), no coax, and no body contact to the source of RF.  Signal
   reports should be in microvolts ... the number of contacts isn't
   really
   useful and neither is SNR if the readings are taken over a lengthy
   period of time.

   If I can get my hands on an AX1, I plan to either climb a tree or
   set up
   a tall fiberglass step ladder for the AX1 as far away line of
   sight from
   my home as practical.  I'd use my KX2 for the signal source, using
   the
   Tune function to put out RF without touching the KX2. Near my home
   I'd
   set up the portable vertical antenna I described in an earlier
   post, and
   feed that to my K3 set to read microvolts.  I'd operate the AX1 (with
   and without counterpoise wire) and any other antenna for
   comparison, and
   have a friend record the microvolts from the K3 as a blind test.

   I would use the tuner in the KX2 to simulate actual use, but that
   would
   of course introduce a variable for possibly different amounts of
   loss in
   the tuner depending upon the load.  I don't see a good way to
   avoid that.

   73,
   Dave   AB7E



   On 9/25/2022 7:06 AM, Ron Gruner wrote:
   > I've just run two tests of my WSPR/AX-1 set-up with and without a
   > counterpoise. Each test ran 24 hours over the last couple of
   days. Here are
   > the results:
   >
   > COUNTERPOISE?
   >           YES       NO
   >       ---  ---
   > Total Contacts         152      129
   > 

Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Wayne Burdick]

No. But try on a little poison oak followed by a hot shower. OMG. That’s the 
nice burn. 


elecraft.com

> On Sep 25, 2022, at 12:11 PM, Fred Jensen  wrote:
> 
> There is no such thing as a "nice" RF burn.
> 
> 73,
> 
> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> Sparks NV DM09dn
> Washoe County
> 
> Steve L wrote on 9/24/2022 6:36 PM:
>> Caution when using this location:  Make sure your counterpoise is insulated 
>> and there’s no way to contact bare metal at this point with your hand when 
>> using the KX2 hand-held ‘walkie-talkie’ style.  I received a nice RF burn on 
>> my hand at this point once!
>> 
>> Steve
>> AA8AF
>> 
 On Sep 24, 2022, at 3:37 PM, Dan Presley  wrote:
>>> 
>>> The other nice feature of the KX2 is the mini banana jack on the side of 
>>> the radio for attaching the counterpoise . It’s perfect for pedestrian 
>>> mobile and should you encounter some sort of snag it’ll pop out before the 
>>> wire breaks.Wayne can better comment than me,but I believe the resonance of 
>>> the AX1 (or AX2 I presume) it’s not right within the 20M band, but close. 
>>> The auto tuner easily takes care of matching and as Wayne mentioned earlier 
>>> compensates for all of the other variables. Just a note that the AX2 is a 
>>> single band coil and can be modified for different bands. Plus it’s even a 
>>> lot lower profile than the AX1.
>>> If you want to see some fun videos of using the AX1 directly attached to 
>>> the KX2 search on YouTube for HB9BZG-SOTA from the Swiss Alps!
>>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> www.avg.com
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Re: [Elecraft] AX-1 -- with and without counterpoise

[Wayne Burdick]

Too much science for one Sunday. We could all just strap in, take a hike, and 
get on the air. 


elecraft.com

> On Sep 25, 2022, at 3:21 PM, Jim Brown  wrote:
> 
> On 9/25/2022 1:43 PM, Bill Mader wrote:
>> Putting the results in a spreadsheet quickly makes antenna configurations'
>> difference apparent.  I have done something similar using the RBN, two
>> antennas, and two nearby frequencies on the same band.  This method
>> effectively identified which antenna was preferred in different directions
>> and distances.  Even so, the differences could change briefly at any time
>> so being able to switch antennas instantly was extremely helpful.
> 
> I've done that for two 160M antennas, one of which had a couple of dB of 
> directivity. I used my call on one, a club call on the other. Transmitted 
> TEST K9YC on CW 5-6 times for each call, paused 5 min, QSYed both a bit, 
> repeated 10-12 times. Did this 6-8 nights, had spreadsheet rows for each 
> station that heard me, separate row for each antenna. The test provided 
> excellent data.
> 
> W6GJB did something quite similar comparing a top and bottom loaded vertical 
> we'd built for CQP/7QP expeditions with an inverted V on 80M. It also yielded 
> good data. It's shown on a few slides in this talk we did at the Pacificon 
> antenna forum. We've since abandoned the concept after later trying a half 
> dozen or so iterations of the design because it's not mechanically practical 
> for the intended portable use.
> http://k9yc.com/80M-FDVertical.pdf
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] AX-1 -- with and without counterpoise

[Jim Brown]

On 9/25/2022 1:43 PM, Bill Mader wrote:

Putting the results in a spreadsheet quickly makes antenna configurations'
difference apparent.  I have done something similar using the RBN, two
antennas, and two nearby frequencies on the same band.  This method
effectively identified which antenna was preferred in different directions
and distances.  Even so, the differences could change briefly at any time
so being able to switch antennas instantly was extremely helpful.


I've done that for two 160M antennas, one of which had a couple of dB of 
directivity. I used my call on one, a club call on the other. 
Transmitted TEST K9YC on CW 5-6 times for each call, paused 5 min, QSYed 
both a bit, repeated 10-12 times. Did this 6-8 nights, had spreadsheet 
rows for each station that heard me, separate row for each antenna. The 
test provided excellent data.


W6GJB did something quite similar comparing a top and bottom loaded 
vertical we'd built for CQP/7QP expeditions with an inverted V on 80M. 
It also yielded good data. It's shown on a few slides in this talk we 
did at the Pacificon antenna forum. We've since abandoned the concept 
after later trying a half dozen or so iterations of the design because 
it's not mechanically practical for the intended portable use.

http://k9yc.com/80M-FDVertical.pdf

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] AX-1 -- with and without counterpoise

[Richard Hill]

One could also consider, "HF Vertical Performance-Test Methods and Results"
by N0AX and K7LXC, 2000.  Available from Champion Radio Products or DX
Engineering.

They set this up as a reasonably reproducible test method to allow at least
somewhat comparable results accepting the inevitable variations from
location to location.

Setting up tests that include one or more of their test antennas and one or
more of the HF Pack antennas and various configurations of AX1 and AX2
antenna systems could result in comparisons that reflect some standard for
comparison and some level of relative understanding.

Especially if done on that standard pedestrian mobile test track.  Hi.

NU6T


On Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 2:38 PM SCOTT MCDONALD via Elecraft <
elecraft@mailman.qth.net> wrote:

> Dave, if you’d like to see a reasonably controlled test of radiators, you
> might want to take a look at the 2002 HF Pack Vertical Antenna Shootout
> Results.  The antennas range from full size to a resistor with a short whip.
>
> https://www.qsl.net/hfpack/antennas/shootoutvertical2002.html#vertical
>
> For sure, the counterpoise was a resonant horizontal quarter wave, not a
> drag wire, and not counterpoiseless (sic), but the results were otherwise
> controlled nicely for direction using quality gear by people fairly
> knowledgeable about portable and pedestrian mobile ops.  If you look at the
> numbers you can even (kinda) infer the radiation resistance goes up with
> the square of the radiator length thing, as one would expect.
>
> And while there is no AX-1 tested, there is one antenna very much like it
> in the mix, about the same length, same dimension loading coil, etc. (not
> judging here Wayne, feel free to rebut).  And it’s about 5dB down from a
> full size quarter wave under controlled conditions, not a surprising result.
>
> About the only thing missing seems to be some practical use data (per
> Julia) comparing a drag wire counterpoise as actually used in the field
> with the Shootout’s single horizontal counterpoise, if someone hasn’t
> already done that. Given the interest at the time  I’d guess that answer
> might exist in HF Pack lore too - maybe someone here knows?
>
> Scott ka9p
>
> Make something good happen!
>
> > On Sep 25, 2022, at 3:26 PM, David Gilbert  wrote:
> >
> > 
> >
> > Personally, I only care about a pure comparison test in as controlled
> circumstances as possible.  Any practical test like you describe will have
> so many variables that it won't be useful for anything other than as an
> anecdote.  "Ground" is going to be wildly different depending upon
> location.  Propagation is highly variable for distant reports, and if you
> instead use a nearby setup for reception, it will make a difference which
> direction is it relative to the trailing counterpoise.
> >
> > Besides, lots of people have already proven they can make contacts with
> the scenario you describe, but nobody has a clue how efficient that might
> be or not be.
> >
> > 73,
> > Dave   AB7E
> >
> >
> >
> >> On 9/25/2022 12:30 PM, Julia Tuttle wrote:
> >> Hi Dave,
> >>
> >> I think that's a proper comparison in a physics sense, but I don't
> think it fully represents how the AX1 is deployed in practice.
> >>
> >> I would run both an ideal scenario -- the one you described -- amd a
> practical scenario -- something like a KX3 + internal batteries on a picnic
> table, AX1 on the bipod, and the counterpoise trailing down to and across
> the ground.
> >>
> >> 73,
> >>
> >> Julie
> >>
> >> On Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 15:19 David Gilbert  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>To be a proper comparison, the AX1 needs to be out it the clear away
> >>from anything else, preferable at a height that allows the
> >>counterpoise
> >>to be hanging straight down with the end maybe a foot or two off the
> >>ground.  Measurements should be with the AX1 at the same height above
> >>the ground without and without the counterpoise. Ideally a KX2 or
> >>similar rig should used, be battery powered (with very short leads if
> >>external), no coax, and no body contact to the source of RF.  Signal
> >>reports should be in microvolts ... the number of contacts isn't
> >>really
> >>useful and neither is SNR if the readings are taken over a lengthy
> >>period of time.
> >>
> >>If I can get my hands on an AX1, I plan to either climb a tree or
> >>set up
> >>a tall fiberglass step ladder for the AX1 as far away line of
> >>sight from
> >>my home as practical.  I'd use my KX2 for the signal source, using
> >>the
> >>Tune function to put out RF without touching the KX2. Near my home
> >>I'd
> >>set up the portable vertical antenna I described in an earlier
> >>post, and
> >>feed that to my K3 set to read microvolts.  I'd operate the AX1 (with
> >>and without counterpoise wire) and any other antenna for
> >>comparison, and
> >>have a friend record the microvolts from the K3 as a blind test.
> >>

Re: [Elecraft] AX-1 -- with and without counterpoise

[SCOTT MCDONALD via Elecraft]

Dave, if you’d like to see a reasonably controlled test of radiators, you might 
want to take a look at the 2002 HF Pack Vertical Antenna Shootout Results.  The 
antennas range from full size to a resistor with a short whip.

https://www.qsl.net/hfpack/antennas/shootoutvertical2002.html#vertical

For sure, the counterpoise was a resonant horizontal quarter wave, not a drag 
wire, and not counterpoiseless (sic), but the results were otherwise controlled 
nicely for direction using quality gear by people fairly knowledgeable about 
portable and pedestrian mobile ops.  If you look at the numbers you can even 
(kinda) infer the radiation resistance goes up with the square of the radiator 
length thing, as one would expect.

And while there is no AX-1 tested, there is one antenna very much like it in 
the mix, about the same length, same dimension loading coil, etc. (not judging 
here Wayne, feel free to rebut).  And it’s about 5dB down from a full size 
quarter wave under controlled conditions, not a surprising result.

About the only thing missing seems to be some practical use data (per Julia) 
comparing a drag wire counterpoise as actually used in the field with the 
Shootout’s single horizontal counterpoise, if someone hasn’t already done that. 
Given the interest at the time  I’d guess that answer might exist in HF Pack 
lore too - maybe someone here knows?

Scott ka9p

Make something good happen!

> On Sep 25, 2022, at 3:26 PM, David Gilbert  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I only care about a pure comparison test in as controlled 
> circumstances as possible.  Any practical test like you describe will have so 
> many variables that it won't be useful for anything other than as an 
> anecdote.  "Ground" is going to be wildly different depending upon location.  
> Propagation is highly variable for distant reports, and if you instead use a 
> nearby setup for reception, it will make a difference which direction is it 
> relative to the trailing counterpoise.
> 
> Besides, lots of people have already proven they can make contacts with the 
> scenario you describe, but nobody has a clue how efficient that might be or 
> not be.
> 
> 73,
> Dave   AB7E
> 
> 
> 
>> On 9/25/2022 12:30 PM, Julia Tuttle wrote:
>> Hi Dave,
>> 
>> I think that's a proper comparison in a physics sense, but I don't think it 
>> fully represents how the AX1 is deployed in practice.
>> 
>> I would run both an ideal scenario -- the one you described -- amd a 
>> practical scenario -- something like a KX3 + internal batteries on a picnic 
>> table, AX1 on the bipod, and the counterpoise trailing down to and across 
>> the ground.
>> 
>> 73,
>> 
>> Julie
>> 
>> On Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 15:19 David Gilbert  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>To be a proper comparison, the AX1 needs to be out it the clear away
>>from anything else, preferable at a height that allows the
>>counterpoise
>>to be hanging straight down with the end maybe a foot or two off the
>>ground.  Measurements should be with the AX1 at the same height above
>>the ground without and without the counterpoise. Ideally a KX2 or
>>similar rig should used, be battery powered (with very short leads if
>>external), no coax, and no body contact to the source of RF.  Signal
>>reports should be in microvolts ... the number of contacts isn't
>>really
>>useful and neither is SNR if the readings are taken over a lengthy
>>period of time.
>> 
>>If I can get my hands on an AX1, I plan to either climb a tree or
>>set up
>>a tall fiberglass step ladder for the AX1 as far away line of
>>sight from
>>my home as practical.  I'd use my KX2 for the signal source, using
>>the
>>Tune function to put out RF without touching the KX2. Near my home
>>I'd
>>set up the portable vertical antenna I described in an earlier
>>post, and
>>feed that to my K3 set to read microvolts.  I'd operate the AX1 (with
>>and without counterpoise wire) and any other antenna for
>>comparison, and
>>have a friend record the microvolts from the K3 as a blind test.
>> 
>>I would use the tuner in the KX2 to simulate actual use, but that
>>would
>>of course introduce a variable for possibly different amounts of
>>loss in
>>the tuner depending upon the load.  I don't see a good way to
>>avoid that.
>> 
>>73,
>>Dave   AB7E
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>On 9/25/2022 7:06 AM, Ron Gruner wrote:
>>> I've just run two tests of my WSPR/AX-1 set-up with and without a
>>> counterpoise. Each test ran 24 hours over the last couple of
>>days. Here are
>>> the results:
>>>
>>> COUNTERPOISE?
>>>YES   NO
>>>---  ---
>>> Total Contacts152  129
>>> Maximum Distance (km)  15,720   17,276
>>> Median Distance 2,1371,823
>>> Median SpotQ  446  398
>>>
>>> Where 

Re: [Elecraft] AX-1 -- with and without counterpoise

[David Gilbert]

I intend to do that.  I probably will also test the resistor with and 
without a whip ... i.e., four combinations.


I don't expect a resistor to do as well as the AX1 because the AX1 is a 
partly reactive load that doesn't absorb energy like a resistor would, 
but we don't really know how lossy the AX1 is, do we.  I just think that 
it might be an interesting comparison, and an actual measurement for the 
AX1 with and without a counterpoise most certainly would be interesting.


73,
Dave   AB7E


On 9/25/2022 2:00 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:

If the signal in your AX1 test is significantly stronger with the
counterpoise it would be interesting to also compare using a resistor
vertical with counterpoise post as you previously posted.

John KK9A




David Gilbert ab7e wrote:

To be a proper comparison, the AX1 needs to be out it the clear away
from anything else, preferable at a height that allows the counterpoise
to be hanging straight down with the end maybe a foot or two off the
ground.  Measurements should be with the AX1 at the same height above
the ground without and without the counterpoise. Ideally a KX2 or
similar rig should used, be battery powered (with very short leads if
external), no coax, and no body contact to the source of RF.  Signal
reports should be in microvolts ... the number of contacts isn't really
useful and neither is SNR if the readings are taken over a lengthy
period of time.

If I can get my hands on an AX1, I plan to either climb a tree or set up
a tall fiberglass step ladder for the AX1 as far away line of sight from
my home as practical.  I'd use my KX2 for the signal source, using the
Tune function to put out RF without touching the KX2.  Near my home I'd
set up the portable vertical antenna I described in an earlier post, and
feed that to my K3 set to read microvolts.  I'd operate the AX1 (with
and without counterpoise wire) and any other antenna for comparison, and
have a friend record the microvolts from the K3 as a blind test.

I would use the tuner in the KX2 to simulate actual use, but that would
of course introduce a variable for possibly different amounts of loss in
the tuner depending upon the load.  I don't see a good way to avoid that.

73,
Dave   AB7E

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Re: [Elecraft] AX-1 -- with and without counterpoise

[john]

If the signal in your AX1 test is significantly stronger with the
counterpoise it would be interesting to also compare using a resistor
vertical with counterpoise post as you previously posted.

John KK9A

David Gilbert ab7e wrote:

To be a proper comparison, the AX1 needs to be out it the clear away 
from anything else, preferable at a height that allows the counterpoise 
to be hanging straight down with the end maybe a foot or two off the 
ground.  Measurements should be with the AX1 at the same height above 
the ground without and without the counterpoise. Ideally a KX2 or 
similar rig should used, be battery powered (with very short leads if 
external), no coax, and no body contact to the source of RF.  Signal 
reports should be in microvolts ... the number of contacts isn't really 
useful and neither is SNR if the readings are taken over a lengthy 
period of time.

If I can get my hands on an AX1, I plan to either climb a tree or set up 
a tall fiberglass step ladder for the AX1 as far away line of sight from 
my home as practical.  I'd use my KX2 for the signal source, using the 
Tune function to put out RF without touching the KX2.  Near my home I'd 
set up the portable vertical antenna I described in an earlier post, and 
feed that to my K3 set to read microvolts.  I'd operate the AX1 (with 
and without counterpoise wire) and any other antenna for comparison, and 
have a friend record the microvolts from the K3 as a blind test.

I would use the tuner in the KX2 to simulate actual use, but that would 
of course introduce a variable for possibly different amounts of loss in 
the tuner depending upon the load.  I don't see a good way to avoid that.

73,
Dave   AB7E

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Re: [Elecraft] K3/K3S Options Last time buy update

[john]

It has been 21 weeks since this post and to my knowledge there has been no
updates. I placed my order for a group 4 part 75 weeks ago and it has yet to
appear in my package box.

John KK9A


Eric Swartz WA6HHQ wrote:

Hi Everyone,

I apologize for not posting this update last week. It was quite busy
at Elecraft HQ, plus I had two unexpected visits to the dentist. (Lots of
fun :-)

As you know by now, the logistics and parts production shortage problems
caused by the COVID pandemic have caused huge production problems for us
and the rest of the electronics industry, car manufacturers etc. The delay
getting the K3/K3S Options status out has primarily been due to the fact
that our Elecraft production, purchasing and engineering teams, in addition
to their normal day to day tasks, they have also been heavily focused on
working together to find production quantities of parts (and alternate
parts) for our primary product lines (K4, K4D, KX2, KX3, KPA500, KPA1500,
KXPA100 etc.)  This is a herculean task, with new shortages popping up
every week. Even 'confirmed' scheduled parts ordered 12 months in advance
from major distributors can suddenly not show up on time. So far we have
been successful dodging these issues, finding alternate suppliers, locating
alternate parts, buying larger quantities of hard to get parts for
inventory etc. This has kept our primary products moving out the door in
steadily increasing quantities each month, (Feb. and March were record
months) but it also has slowed us from working on finding and purchasing
all the parts for the last run of K3/K3S options. That said, we are now
focusing more directly on this and have been successful getting many of the
critical K3/K3S option parts in house.   Below is our current Status.

I've initially broken the options into 5 groups with estimated shipping
dates, depending on which options we are currently focused on, parts we
already have in stock, expected parts delivery times, certainty of
acquiring parts, manufacturing time and how close we are to having all
parts for each option in house.  Dates will get firmer in general as we
move forward.

We will contact customers with currently booked orders (and wait list
customers in some cases) as each option gets close to shipping.  (Please
try to resist calling sales for new updates as they are heavily loaded and
will not have new K3/K3sOption information until the next update comes out.)

Group 1:
a.)  K144XV will be ready to ship within the next week.  (We will start
contacting customers this week).
b.)  K144RFLK: 6-8 weeks if everything goes ok. This board can be
installed after the K144XV is installed. (We're working to get this one
faster, if possible.)

Group 2:  (These two options received the highest quantity of orders)
a.) KSYN3A:  7-12 weeks if there are no last minute surprises. We have been
successful locating and purchasing the primary problem parts, including the
SI570, Pic processor etc.

b.)KIO3BUPKIT: 8-12 weeks

Group 3:
KXV3B, KBPF3A, P3TX Monitor, KAT3A:, KPA3A  10-14 weeks

Group 4:
K3/0-Mini, K3EXREF, KDVR3.  14-16 weeks est. This may change +/- depending
on parts deliveries and availability.

Group 5:
P3, P3SVGA:   After Group 4.  Working on locating several hard to get
parts.  Will update with estimated ship dates in following status updates
as this becomes better defined.

I will work to post updates every 2-3 weeks as we move forward. As parts
come in we hope some items in groups 2-4 will move to shorter times.

73,
Eric   WA6HHQ
*elecraft.com *

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Re: [Elecraft] AX-1 -- with and without counterpoise

[Bill Mader]

Dave is getting closer to a valid test.  However, testing on two different
days (rig and antenna inventory) is not quite useful for obvious reasons,
mostly propagation conditions.

A better method is to use a "standard" dipole and two WSPR transmitters;
one on the dipole and another on the two different AX1 configurations.
Then, the numbers become comparisons against the "standard" dipole.  the
point is to spend 24 hours comparing one configuration against the dipole
and the next day the second configuration against the dipole.

Putting the results in a spreadsheet quickly makes antenna configurations'
difference apparent.  I have done something similar using the RBN, two
antennas, and two nearby frequencies on the same band.  This method
effectively identified which antenna was preferred in different directions
and distances.  Even so, the differences could change briefly at any time
so being able to switch antennas instantly was extremely helpful.

Anecdotes, even comparing configurations from one day to the next are not
very helpful unless done over many days.  WSPR is an excellent tool for
antenna and propagation study.  A pair of WSPRLite transmitters provide
accurate, useful data whereas "I worked..." can be interesting, but not
very useful although it is extremely popular.

73, Bill, K8TE


Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2022 12:19:03 -0700
From: David Gilbert 
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] AX-1 -- with and without counterpoise
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed


To be a proper comparison, the AX1 needs to be out it the clear away
from anything else, preferable at a height that allows the counterpoise
to be hanging straight down with the end maybe a foot or two off the
ground.? Measurements should be with the AX1 at the same height above
the ground without and without the counterpoise. Ideally a KX2 or
similar rig should used, be battery powered (with very short leads if
external), no coax, and no body contact to the source of RF.? Signal
reports should be in microvolts ... the number of contacts isn't really
useful and neither is SNR if the readings are taken over a lengthy
period of time.

If I can get my hands on an AX1, I plan to either climb a tree or set up
a tall fiberglass step ladder for the AX1 as far away line of sight from
my home as practical.? I'd use my KX2 for the signal source, using the
Tune function to put out RF without touching the KX2.? Near my home I'd
set up the portable vertical antenna I described in an earlier post, and
feed that to my K3 set to read microvolts.? I'd operate the AX1 (with
and without counterpoise wire) and any other antenna for comparison, and
have a friend record the microvolts from the K3 as a blind test.

I would use the tuner in the KX2 to simulate actual use, but that would
of course introduce a variable for possibly different amounts of loss in
the tuner depending upon the load.? I don't see a good way to avoid that.

73,
Dave?? AB7E



On 9/25/2022 7:06 AM, Ron Gruner wrote:
> I've just run two tests of my WSPR/AX-1 set-up with and without a
> counterpoise. Each test ran 24 hours over the last couple of days. Here
are
> the results:
>
>  COUNTERPOISE?
>YES   NO
>---  ---
> Total Contacts152  129
> Maximum Distance (km)  15,720   17,276
> Median Distance 2,1371,823
> Median SpotQ  446  398
>
> Where SpotQ = Kilometers / [(2 Watts x (SNR in DB + 36))/36) ]
>
> The WSPR circuit's ground and SMA connectors are apparently providing
> enough of a counterpoise to propagate a respectable signal.
>
> Here's a close-up of the rig with no counterpoise:
> https://gruner.com/k4rhg/wspr_ax-1_nocounterpoise.png
>
> 73,
> Ron Gruner
> K4RHG



73, Bill Mader, K8TE
ARRL New Mexico Section Manager
*ARRL - The national association for Amateur Radio**™*
Secretary/Treasurer and Past President, Albuquerque DX Association
W6H NM Coordinator, Route 66 On-the-Air 8-17 Sep 2023
New Mexico QSO Party 8 Apr 2023
Duke City Hamfest Chairman www.dukecityhamfest.org 15-17 Sep 2023
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Re: [Elecraft] AX-1 -- with and without counterpoise

[David Gilbert]

Personally, I only care about a pure comparison test in as controlled 
circumstances as possible.  Any practical test like you describe will 
have so many variables that it won't be useful for anything other than 
as an anecdote.  "Ground" is going to be wildly different depending upon 
location.  Propagation is highly variable for distant reports, and if 
you instead use a nearby setup for reception, it will make a difference 
which direction is it relative to the trailing counterpoise.


Besides, lots of people have already proven they can make contacts with 
the scenario you describe, but nobody has a clue how efficient that 
might be or not be.


73,
Dave   AB7E



On 9/25/2022 12:30 PM, Julia Tuttle wrote:

Hi Dave,

I think that's a proper comparison in a physics sense, but I don't 
think it fully represents how the AX1 is deployed in practice.


I would run both an ideal scenario -- the one you described -- amd a 
practical scenario -- something like a KX3 + internal batteries on a 
picnic table, AX1 on the bipod, and the counterpoise trailing down to 
and across the ground.


73,

Julie

On Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 15:19 David Gilbert  wrote:


To be a proper comparison, the AX1 needs to be out it the clear away
from anything else, preferable at a height that allows the
counterpoise
to be hanging straight down with the end maybe a foot or two off the
ground.  Measurements should be with the AX1 at the same height above
the ground without and without the counterpoise. Ideally a KX2 or
similar rig should used, be battery powered (with very short leads if
external), no coax, and no body contact to the source of RF.  Signal
reports should be in microvolts ... the number of contacts isn't
really
useful and neither is SNR if the readings are taken over a lengthy
period of time.

If I can get my hands on an AX1, I plan to either climb a tree or
set up
a tall fiberglass step ladder for the AX1 as far away line of
sight from
my home as practical.  I'd use my KX2 for the signal source, using
the
Tune function to put out RF without touching the KX2. Near my home
I'd
set up the portable vertical antenna I described in an earlier
post, and
feed that to my K3 set to read microvolts.  I'd operate the AX1 (with
and without counterpoise wire) and any other antenna for
comparison, and
have a friend record the microvolts from the K3 as a blind test.

I would use the tuner in the KX2 to simulate actual use, but that
would
of course introduce a variable for possibly different amounts of
loss in
the tuner depending upon the load.  I don't see a good way to
avoid that.

73,
Dave   AB7E



On 9/25/2022 7:06 AM, Ron Gruner wrote:
> I've just run two tests of my WSPR/AX-1 set-up with and without a
> counterpoise. Each test ran 24 hours over the last couple of
days. Here are
> the results:
>
> COUNTERPOISE?
>                                YES       NO
>                            ---  ---
> Total Contacts                152      129
> Maximum Distance (km)      15,720   17,276
> Median Distance             2,137    1,823
> Median SpotQ                  446      398
>
> Where SpotQ = Kilometers / [(2 Watts x (SNR in DB + 36))/36) ]
>
> The WSPR circuit's ground and SMA connectors are apparently
providing
> enough of a counterpoise to propagate a respectable signal.
>
> Here's a close-up of the rig with no counterpoise:
> https://gruner.com/k4rhg/wspr_ax-1_nocounterpoise.png
>
> 73,
> Ron Gruner
> K4RHG
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Re: [Elecraft] AX-1 -- with and without counterpoise

[Julia Tuttle]

Hi Dave,

I think that's a proper comparison in a physics sense, but I don't think it
fully represents how the AX1 is deployed in practice.

I would run both an ideal scenario -- the one you described -- amd a
practical scenario -- something like a KX3 + internal batteries on a picnic
table, AX1 on the bipod, and the counterpoise trailing down to and across
the ground.

73,

Julie

On Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 15:19 David Gilbert  wrote:

>
> To be a proper comparison, the AX1 needs to be out it the clear away
> from anything else, preferable at a height that allows the counterpoise
> to be hanging straight down with the end maybe a foot or two off the
> ground.  Measurements should be with the AX1 at the same height above
> the ground without and without the counterpoise. Ideally a KX2 or
> similar rig should used, be battery powered (with very short leads if
> external), no coax, and no body contact to the source of RF.  Signal
> reports should be in microvolts ... the number of contacts isn't really
> useful and neither is SNR if the readings are taken over a lengthy
> period of time.
>
> If I can get my hands on an AX1, I plan to either climb a tree or set up
> a tall fiberglass step ladder for the AX1 as far away line of sight from
> my home as practical.  I'd use my KX2 for the signal source, using the
> Tune function to put out RF without touching the KX2.  Near my home I'd
> set up the portable vertical antenna I described in an earlier post, and
> feed that to my K3 set to read microvolts.  I'd operate the AX1 (with
> and without counterpoise wire) and any other antenna for comparison, and
> have a friend record the microvolts from the K3 as a blind test.
>
> I would use the tuner in the KX2 to simulate actual use, but that would
> of course introduce a variable for possibly different amounts of loss in
> the tuner depending upon the load.  I don't see a good way to avoid that.
>
> 73,
> Dave   AB7E
>
>
>
> On 9/25/2022 7:06 AM, Ron Gruner wrote:
> > I've just run two tests of my WSPR/AX-1 set-up with and without a
> > counterpoise. Each test ran 24 hours over the last couple of days. Here
> are
> > the results:
> >
> >  COUNTERPOISE?
> >YES   NO
> >---  ---
> > Total Contacts152  129
> > Maximum Distance (km)  15,720   17,276
> > Median Distance 2,1371,823
> > Median SpotQ  446  398
> >
> > Where SpotQ = Kilometers / [(2 Watts x (SNR in DB + 36))/36) ]
> >
> > The WSPR circuit's ground and SMA connectors are apparently providing
> > enough of a counterpoise to propagate a respectable signal.
> >
> > Here's a close-up of the rig with no counterpoise:
> > https://gruner.com/k4rhg/wspr_ax-1_nocounterpoise.png
> >
> > 73,
> > Ron Gruner
> > K4RHG
> > __
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Re: [Elecraft] AX-1 -- with and without counterpoise

[Richard Hill]

It would be interesting to see the results of a fully double blind
scientifically reproducible test done with traceable engineering quality
test equipment on a closed pedestrian mobile track.

NU6T

On Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 12:19 PM David Gilbert  wrote:

>
> To be a proper comparison, the AX1 needs to be out it the clear away
> from anything else, preferable at a height that allows the counterpoise
> to be hanging straight down with the end maybe a foot or two off the
> ground.  Measurements should be with the AX1 at the same height above
> the ground without and without the counterpoise. Ideally a KX2 or
> similar rig should used, be battery powered (with very short leads if
> external), no coax, and no body contact to the source of RF.  Signal
> reports should be in microvolts ... the number of contacts isn't really
> useful and neither is SNR if the readings are taken over a lengthy
> period of time.
>
> If I can get my hands on an AX1, I plan to either climb a tree or set up
> a tall fiberglass step ladder for the AX1 as far away line of sight from
> my home as practical.  I'd use my KX2 for the signal source, using the
> Tune function to put out RF without touching the KX2.  Near my home I'd
> set up the portable vertical antenna I described in an earlier post, and
> feed that to my K3 set to read microvolts.  I'd operate the AX1 (with
> and without counterpoise wire) and any other antenna for comparison, and
> have a friend record the microvolts from the K3 as a blind test.
>
> I would use the tuner in the KX2 to simulate actual use, but that would
> of course introduce a variable for possibly different amounts of loss in
> the tuner depending upon the load.  I don't see a good way to avoid that.
>
> 73,
> Dave   AB7E
>
>
>
> On 9/25/2022 7:06 AM, Ron Gruner wrote:
> > I've just run two tests of my WSPR/AX-1 set-up with and without a
> > counterpoise. Each test ran 24 hours over the last couple of days. Here
> are
> > the results:
> >
> >  COUNTERPOISE?
> >YES   NO
> >---  ---
> > Total Contacts152  129
> > Maximum Distance (km)  15,720   17,276
> > Median Distance 2,1371,823
> > Median SpotQ  446  398
> >
> > Where SpotQ = Kilometers / [(2 Watts x (SNR in DB + 36))/36) ]
> >
> > The WSPR circuit's ground and SMA connectors are apparently providing
> > enough of a counterpoise to propagate a respectable signal.
> >
> > Here's a close-up of the rig with no counterpoise:
> > https://gruner.com/k4rhg/wspr_ax-1_nocounterpoise.png
> >
> > 73,
> > Ron Gruner
> > K4RHG
> > __
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Re: [Elecraft] AX-1 -- with and without counterpoise

[David Gilbert]

To be a proper comparison, the AX1 needs to be out it the clear away 
from anything else, preferable at a height that allows the counterpoise 
to be hanging straight down with the end maybe a foot or two off the 
ground.  Measurements should be with the AX1 at the same height above 
the ground without and without the counterpoise. Ideally a KX2 or 
similar rig should used, be battery powered (with very short leads if 
external), no coax, and no body contact to the source of RF.  Signal 
reports should be in microvolts ... the number of contacts isn't really 
useful and neither is SNR if the readings are taken over a lengthy 
period of time.


If I can get my hands on an AX1, I plan to either climb a tree or set up 
a tall fiberglass step ladder for the AX1 as far away line of sight from 
my home as practical.  I'd use my KX2 for the signal source, using the 
Tune function to put out RF without touching the KX2.  Near my home I'd 
set up the portable vertical antenna I described in an earlier post, and 
feed that to my K3 set to read microvolts.  I'd operate the AX1 (with 
and without counterpoise wire) and any other antenna for comparison, and 
have a friend record the microvolts from the K3 as a blind test.


I would use the tuner in the KX2 to simulate actual use, but that would 
of course introduce a variable for possibly different amounts of loss in 
the tuner depending upon the load.  I don't see a good way to avoid that.


73,
Dave   AB7E



On 9/25/2022 7:06 AM, Ron Gruner wrote:

I've just run two tests of my WSPR/AX-1 set-up with and without a
counterpoise. Each test ran 24 hours over the last couple of days. Here are
the results:

 COUNTERPOISE?
   YES   NO
   ---  ---
Total Contacts152  129
Maximum Distance (km)  15,720   17,276
Median Distance 2,1371,823
Median SpotQ  446  398

Where SpotQ = Kilometers / [(2 Watts x (SNR in DB + 36))/36) ]

The WSPR circuit's ground and SMA connectors are apparently providing
enough of a counterpoise to propagate a respectable signal.

Here's a close-up of the rig with no counterpoise:
https://gruner.com/k4rhg/wspr_ax-1_nocounterpoise.png

73,
Ron Gruner
K4RHG
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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Fred Jensen]

There is no such thing as a "nice" RF burn.

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

Steve L wrote on 9/24/2022 6:36 PM:

Caution when using this location:  Make sure your counterpoise is insulated and 
there’s no way to contact bare metal at this point with your hand when using 
the KX2 hand-held ‘walkie-talkie’ style.  I received a nice RF burn on my hand 
at this point once!

Steve
AA8AF


On Sep 24, 2022, at 3:37 PM, Dan Presley  wrote:

The other nice feature of the KX2 is the mini banana jack on the side of the 
radio for attaching the counterpoise . It’s perfect for pedestrian mobile and 
should you encounter some sort of snag it’ll pop out before the wire 
breaks.Wayne can better comment than me,but I believe the resonance of the AX1 
(or AX2 I presume) it’s not right within the 20M band, but close. The auto 
tuner easily takes care of matching and as Wayne mentioned earlier compensates 
for all of the other variables. Just a note that the AX2 is a single band coil 
and can be modified for different bands. Plus it’s even a lot lower profile 
than the AX1.
If you want to see some fun videos of using the AX1 directly attached to the 
KX2 search on YouTube for HB9BZG-SOTA from the Swiss Alps!





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Re: [Elecraft] AX1 today

[Dan Presley]

Thanks Wayne for the encouragement.  Since I’ve become involved in our local 
club-Portland Amateur Radio Club, or PARC , we’ve encouraged members to get out 
of the home shack and try outdoor operating. As is true with many urban 
dwellers we all fight noise and space issues,and no better way to hear what the 
bands are doing plus get some exercise. SOTA has become very popular here in 
Oregon-lots of summits of varying degrees of accessibility so almost everyone 
can participate. Also been a real boost to QrP and CW. 

Dan Presley 503-701-3871
danpresley@me. com 
n7...@arrl.net


> On Sep 24, 2022, at 22:54, Wayne Burdick  wrote:
> 
> And thank you for getting outdoors to operate, Dan. That's the real reason 
> for the AX line :)
> 
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
> 
> 
>> On Sep 24, 2022, at 10:09 PM, Dan Presley  wrote:
>> 
>> All this discussion about the antenna caused me to carve out a little time 
>> this afternoon to go to a suburban summit. Perfect setting for the AX1 as 
>> there’s no good trees and since it’s also somewhat of a park -wires around 
>> and in the air are frowned on. Also with limited time a quick setup and tear 
>> down is important. My usual setup is a small lightweight tripod (light 
>> stand) that goes to 6 feet and elevated radials (3 13’). I have alligator 
>> clips on the end of the radials for easy attachment to anything like some 
>> grass or a shrub. ATU in the KX2 hardly ‘clicked’ for a match. In 45 minutes 
>>  I worked 22 stations (12 states),Japan and 4 ‘S2S’-summit to summit 
>> contacts on 20 and 15 M CW 5 watts. Best report was 599 from OK..almost 
>> pulled off an S2S with JH3PLL. Kept asking ‘N7??’ but we couldn’t quite pull 
>> it off. And everything except the tripod packs into a small LowePro bag. 
>> Summit W7O/WV-099 if you follow that. Thanks for a great product Wayne. 
>> 
>> 
>> Dan Presley 503-701-3871
>> danpresley@me. com 
>> n7...@arrl.net
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] AX-1 -- with and without counterpoise

[Wayne Burdick]

Every conductor attached to the radio’s case (ground) will become part of the 
counterpoise. Including your body, and any other objects that are conductive 
that capacitively or resistively couple to the ground.

This is one of the many reasons why an ATU is needed to compensate for 
electrically short antennas.

Wayne



elecraft.com

> On Sep 25, 2022, at 7:49 AM, Julia Tuttle  wrote:
> 
> How long is the power cable? Is it possible it's using that as a
> counterpoise?
> 
>> On Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 10:07 Ron Gruner  wrote:
>> 
>> I've just run two tests of my WSPR/AX-1 set-up with and without a
>> counterpoise. Each test ran 24 hours over the last couple of days. Here are
>> the results:
>> 
>>COUNTERPOISE?
>>  YES   NO
>>  ---  ---
>> Total Contacts152  129
>> Maximum Distance (km)  15,720   17,276
>> Median Distance 2,1371,823
>> Median SpotQ  446  398
>> 
>> Where SpotQ = Kilometers / [(2 Watts x (SNR in DB + 36))/36) ]
>> 
>> The WSPR circuit's ground and SMA connectors are apparently providing
>> enough of a counterpoise to propagate a respectable signal.
>> 
>> Here's a close-up of the rig with no counterpoise:
>> https://gruner.com/k4rhg/wspr_ax-1_nocounterpoise.png
>> 
>> 73,
>> Ron Gruner
>> K4RHG
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Re: [Elecraft] AX-1 -- with and without counterpoise

[Dave (NK7Z)]

You might try running the same test with-- say 12 turns of cable on a 
Mix31 FT240 core, on every cable leaving the transmitter.


73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 9/25/22 07:06, Ron Gruner wrote:

I've just run two tests of my WSPR/AX-1 set-up with and without a
counterpoise. Each test ran 24 hours over the last couple of days. Here are
the results:

 COUNTERPOISE?
   YES   NO
   ---  ---
Total Contacts152  129
Maximum Distance (km)  15,720   17,276
Median Distance 2,1371,823
Median SpotQ  446  398

Where SpotQ = Kilometers / [(2 Watts x (SNR in DB + 36))/36) ]

The WSPR circuit's ground and SMA connectors are apparently providing
enough of a counterpoise to propagate a respectable signal.

Here's a close-up of the rig with no counterpoise:
https://gruner.com/k4rhg/wspr_ax-1_nocounterpoise.png

73,
Ron Gruner
K4RHG
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Re: [Elecraft] AX-1 -- with and without counterpoise

[Julia Tuttle]

How long is the power cable? Is it possible it's using that as a
counterpoise?

On Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 10:07 Ron Gruner  wrote:

> I've just run two tests of my WSPR/AX-1 set-up with and without a
> counterpoise. Each test ran 24 hours over the last couple of days. Here are
> the results:
>
> COUNTERPOISE?
>   YES   NO
>   ---  ---
> Total Contacts152  129
> Maximum Distance (km)  15,720   17,276
> Median Distance 2,1371,823
> Median SpotQ  446  398
>
> Where SpotQ = Kilometers / [(2 Watts x (SNR in DB + 36))/36) ]
>
> The WSPR circuit's ground and SMA connectors are apparently providing
> enough of a counterpoise to propagate a respectable signal.
>
> Here's a close-up of the rig with no counterpoise:
> https://gruner.com/k4rhg/wspr_ax-1_nocounterpoise.png
>
> 73,
> Ron Gruner
> K4RHG
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[Elecraft] AX-1 -- with and without counterpoise

[Ron Gruner]

I've just run two tests of my WSPR/AX-1 set-up with and without a
counterpoise. Each test ran 24 hours over the last couple of days. Here are
the results:

COUNTERPOISE?
  YES   NO
  ---  ---
Total Contacts152  129
Maximum Distance (km)  15,720   17,276
Median Distance 2,1371,823
Median SpotQ  446  398

Where SpotQ = Kilometers / [(2 Watts x (SNR in DB + 36))/36) ]

The WSPR circuit's ground and SMA connectors are apparently providing
enough of a counterpoise to propagate a respectable signal.

Here's a close-up of the rig with no counterpoise:
https://gruner.com/k4rhg/wspr_ax-1_nocounterpoise.png

73,
Ron Gruner
K4RHG
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