Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)

[brian]

I seem to recall this was functionality was available way back when (>10 
years ago) for a two rig satellite setup.


From memory (perhaps faulty):

There was a software program which compensated for the Doppler shift 
with an RS232 link to the downlink radio.  No correction was made to the 
uplink radio.


There was also one or more program(s)/hardware board(s) to control the 
EL-AZ rotors (various outputs so that most rotors could be controlled).


I do recall using the downlink Doppler shift compensation program. It 
worked fine in the CW mode I tested.  I abandoned it because it was easy 
enough to manually tune the radio to follow the Doppler on 70 cm downlinks.


Didn't use the rotor control hardware/software with the U100 (clack box) 
rotors I had.  They were easy enough to manually operate.  Set the 
declination rotor, track azimuth in steps for a while, reset declination 
rotor etc.  An available satellite tracking computer program gave the 
needed elevations/azimuths.


"Integration" was an exercise for the user.  Some guys did indeed 
integrate the all the pieces. I found it unnecessary to do so.


Biggest pain was waiting for passes of the few useable birds available.

Guys interested in something narrow bandwidth modes would perhaps need 
to refine the old technology or maybe not. Moonbounce programs 
apparently compensate for Doppler.


73 de Brian/K3KO


On 5/25/2016 16:04 PM, Edward R Cole wrote:

Johnny,

I was actually planning to try doing exactly that: use my K3+432
transverter with KX3-2M.  But this is new territory which no one has
ventured.  First one would need sw to interface the radios, then sw to
link to satellite tracking sw, and also a program that would provide
both inverting and non-inverting dual band frequency tracking.  The UHF
radio needs to change frequency at a faster rate than the VHF radio in
order to compensate for Doppler.  Just linking VFO's will not do it.

I'm not a programmer so that would depend on patching together from
other sw and I kept putting that off.
I had wanted a dual-band mobile radio to replace radios I had sold in
buying transverters which don't cover the full band.  I figured one with
cross-band duplex would get me back with a usable satellite radio (but
only FM).

There are a couple sats that have linear transponders for SSB/CW use
though not in high earth orbit (Heo).  That thinking morphed into my
acquiring the old FT-736R which adds all-mode operation and CAT.

The KX2 got me thinking how nice a dual-band VHF/UHF KX3 would be (doing
duplex would add extra nice).

Somebody will marry the two Elecraft radios some day for full cross-band
duplex.

Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 11:33:24 + (UTC)
From: Johnny Siu <vr2...@yahoo.com.hk>
To: Edward R Cole <kl...@acsalaska.net>, David Anderson
 <gm4...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Elecraft@mailman.qth.net" <Elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: [Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)

Instead of developing a new radio for SAT. ?Can there be a device that
can link two elecraft radios for up / downlink of SAT?
In the past, CT16 can link Icom IC275 and IC475 to work as a pair.
I think this route will save a lot of R for a new radio.
73
Johnny VR2XMC



73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
 "Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
 dubus...@gmail.com

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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

Seems that this is a strong argument against a "satellite radio" -- if 
they launch a new satellite, and it does something different, you might 
not have the right bands and/or modes built in.


General purpose UHF/VHF is a different story.

On 5/25/2016 1:43 AM, David Anderson via Elecraft wrote:

We had much better satellites then, in decent orbits like AO-10. So Yaesu in 
particular brought out lovely expensive duplex radios. Great! However then the 
linear sats gradually died and were replaced by digital radio sats. Some FM one 
channel toy sats, but nothing like the old wide linear transponders.



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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)

[Edward R Cole]

Johnny,

I was actually planning to try doing exactly that: use my K3+432 
transverter with KX3-2M.  But this is new territory which no one has 
ventured.  First one would need sw to interface the radios, then sw 
to link to satellite tracking sw, and also a program that would 
provide both inverting and non-inverting dual band frequency 
tracking.  The UHF radio needs to change frequency at a faster rate 
than the VHF radio in order to compensate for Doppler.  Just linking 
VFO's will not do it.


I'm not a programmer so that would depend on patching together from 
other sw and I kept putting that off.
I had wanted a dual-band mobile radio to replace radios I had sold in 
buying transverters which don't cover the full band.  I figured one 
with cross-band duplex would get me back with a usable satellite 
radio (but only FM).


There are a couple sats that have linear transponders for SSB/CW use 
though not in high earth orbit (Heo).  That thinking morphed into my 
acquiring the old FT-736R which adds all-mode operation and CAT.


The KX2 got me thinking how nice a dual-band VHF/UHF KX3 would be 
(doing duplex would add extra nice).


Somebody will marry the two Elecraft radios some day for full 
cross-band duplex.


Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 11:33:24 + (UTC)
From: Johnny Siu <vr2...@yahoo.com.hk>
To: Edward R Cole <kl...@acsalaska.net>, David Anderson
<gm4...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Elecraft@mailman.qth.net" <Elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: [Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)

Instead of developing a new radio for SAT. ?Can there be a device 
that can link two elecraft radios for up / downlink of SAT?

In the past, CT16 can link Icom IC275 and IC475 to work as a pair.
I think this route will save a lot of R for a new radio.
73
Johnny VR2XMC



73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
dubus...@gmail.com

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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)

[Edward R Cole]

Sure - I have done no market analysis survey - its just a shot in the dark.

To address why no EU mfr - really?  How many ham mfrs are 
US-based?  ALL three top brands are in Japan.
Only Tentec and Elecraft are US.  There are many VHF-mw transverter 
mfr's located in EU and only one in the US.  (David should comment on 
UK-EU VHF activity).


OK.  When the Flex-5000, came out many eme stations bought it - they 
already had equipment.  Many eme'rs have bought the K3, as 
well.  They traded their old radios.  How many hams traded their 
FT-817 to buy the KX3? I did.


New tech doesn't just attract HFers.

Satellite experience faded with the end of the Heo linear transponder 
era.  Leo sat are lower altitude so max range is much more limited 
which also limits the number of stations that are workable - got 
that.  Having one channel causes "traffic jams" also negative.


That is why the radio I envision cannot be just for satellite 
users.  In fact it should be thoroughly researched for what the full 
spectrum of VHF+ users want.  I (not very humbly) believe I represent that.


I tried to list the features wanted.  The market is beyond just 
satellite users or eme'rs or FM repeater users, or contesters, or 
meteor scatter users, or Emcomm users, or digital mode users, ...only 
if the radio offers something for all of them - big hint!


All the big three are marketing multiple models for VHF multi-mode; 
only two radios do satellite in duplex (I'm not counting the 
HT's).  So there must be a market.


MY point it nothing made today offers all the feature that VHFers 
want, and many are not state of the art tech.  Elecraft has shown the 
willingness to venture into new tech.  Why I suggest they might 
consider making such a radio.


Some day someone will - watch the stampede when that happens!

73, Ed

To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)
Message-ID: <5745951f.2090...@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

I should be the last person on earth to comment on this.

If there is such a large market in EU then it suggests that an EU
manufacturer ought to be the source. Why hasn't that happened?

One factor missing from your 1000 estimate is the fraction that are
likely to buy.  Clearly active stations already have their own gear.

My experience with satellites is minimal. 1000 contacts.  The trouble
was that represented less than 50 different stations.  The novelty
quickly died.  Haven't been back since.

73 de Brian/K3KO



73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
dubus...@gmail.com

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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)

[Dr. William J. Schmidt, II]

I would buy a 736R updated replacement in a microsecond Specially with some 
of the capabilities of the K3. I sold my 736R and have regretted it ever since. 
 (I have no interest in QRP/ being weak).


Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ
 
Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC
Staunton, Illinois
 
Owner – Operator
Villa Grand Piton - J68HZ
Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.
Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

email:  b...@wjschmidt.com
 

> On May 24, 2016, at 11:38 PM, Edward R Cole <kl...@acsalaska.net> wrote:
> 
> There are about 1500-2000 hams active on 2m-eme worldwide; probably another 
> 1000 on other bands on eme.
> VHF+ is huge in EU with contests every month and literally hundreds of 
> stations working on 10-GHz in the UK and EU.
> 2m is the most used IF for mw.
> 
> On VHF and UHF up to 1296 there are probably five times as many active hams 
> as in the US.  A radio as I described would be well received by this segment 
> of ham radio.
> 
> Would 1,000 ordered the first month be adequate?
> 
> 73, Ed - KL7UW
> PS: you would be surprised how many KX3 are in use as IF for VHF and higher 
> bands.  KX2 will probably see some of this use as well.
> 
> Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 15:16:38 -0700
> From: Phil Wheeler <w...@socal.rr.com>
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)
> Message-ID: <7f140668-ae11-ec14-9ac4-91a72a13a...@socal.rr.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
> 
> Ed, re "Who will build it?": It seems the market
> must be large enough to justify the investment. I
> wonder if it really is?
> 
> 73, Phil W7OX
> 
> 
> 
> 73, Ed - KL7UW
> http://www.kl7uw.com
>"Kits made by KL7UW"
> Dubus Mag business:
>dubus...@gmail.com
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)

[David Anderson via Elecraft]

The Europeans have produced the FunCube dongle and the SDRPLay. I wouldn't be 
surprised to see the Chinese producing something as they are launching more 
satellites than anyone else just now.

For many most of the fun with satellites is building up the gear and antenna 
tracking, playing with the software, and not buying a do it all box and just 
working people, that gets boring quickly. It was more useful when we had high 
orbit birds, then it was a way of chatting to people on another continent about 
technical matters with almost no QRM for an hour or so. That has largely been 
replaced by the Internet. 

73 from David GM4JJJ

> On 25 May 2016, at 13:05, brian <als...@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> I should be the last person on earth to comment on this.
> 
> If there is such a large market in EU then it suggests that an EU 
> manufacturer ought to be the source. Why hasn't that happened?
> 
> One factor missing from your 1000 estimate is the fraction that are likely to 
> buy.  Clearly active stations already have their own gear.
> 
> My experience with satellites is minimal. 1000 contacts.  The trouble was 
> that represented less than 50 different stations.  The novelty quickly died.  
> Haven't been back since.
> 
> 73 de Brian/K3KO
> 
>> On 5/25/2016 4:38 AM, Edward R Cole wrote:
>> There are about 1500-2000 hams active on 2m-eme worldwide; probably
>> another 1000 on other bands on eme.
>> VHF+ is huge in EU with contests every month and literally hundreds of
>> stations working on 10-GHz in the UK and EU.
>> 2m is the most used IF for mw.
>> 
>> On VHF and UHF up to 1296 there are probably five times as many active
>> hams as in the US.  A radio as I described would be well received by
>> this segment of ham radio.
>> 
>> Would 1,000 ordered the first month be adequate?
>> 
>> 73, Ed - KL7UW
>> PS: you would be surprised how many KX3 are in use as IF for VHF and
>> higher bands.  KX2 will probably see some of this use as well.
>> 
>> Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 15:16:38 -0700
>> From: Phil Wheeler <w...@socal.rr.com>
>> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)
>> Message-ID: <7f140668-ae11-ec14-9ac4-91a72a13a...@socal.rr.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>> 
>> Ed, re "Who will build it?": It seems the market
>> must be large enough to justify the investment. I
>> wonder if it really is?
>> 
>> 73, Phil W7OX
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 73, Ed - KL7UW
>> http://www.kl7uw.com
>>   "Kits made by KL7UW"
>> Dubus Mag business:
>>   dubus...@gmail.com
>> 
>> __
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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)

[David Anderson via Elecraft]

That is the point yes.

I wasn't saying it wasn't.

Excuse my previous comments which came across as confrontational, they weren't 
meant to be and my only excuse is lack of coffee ;-) I was merely outlining my 
thoughts which may be in agreement with what has already been said by others.

I use the KX3 with external transverter for TX and an SDRPlay for receive.

The point is there are many ways to skin a cat, and we have excellent cheap SDR 
receivers now which combined with any transmitter you have will accomplish what 
we need for the existing LEO linear transponders.

Like Ed KL7UW, I also have an FT-736R which I picked up a few years ago when 
nobody wanted them as they thought the FT-847 was a better radio because it was 
newer.  The FT-736R has a much cleaner transmitter (can be improved further 
with some simple mods), lacks a few important things like transmit inhibit for 
use with sequencers, and has a poor 435 MHz receiver in terms of strong signal 
handling. The 23cm modules are like rocking horse s**t to find though :-( but 
despite all that I am hanging on to mine as a backup rig and occasional 
satellite use.

First we need the sats, and until then the manufacturers are not going to pull 
the trigger on an all in one VHF/UHF satellite box I fear. So the easiest 
option -now- for many who want to get their feet wet is a cheap wideband SDR 
receiver combined with any multi mode transmitter old or new. 

Many of the young new hams who are going to be interested in cube sats just 
don't have much money to spend unlike the relatively rich retired hams on this 
list, myself included. They will go for new technology which they can put 
together themselves, SDR dongles, Raspberry Pi, Etc. At a fraction of the cost 
of the cheapest all in one duplex box. They are the future of the hobby, and 
will have entirely different ideas than we old timers. This is a good thing.

Similar things happened with the pacsats where many used old CB transceivers as 
their IF for Transverters to get PSK or FSK modems going for store and forward 
sats. Experimentation with cheap gear repurposed was the order of the day for 
many.  

The Icom 7300 with built in touch panoramic display points the way forward for 
all manufacturers, in a couple of generations we will have higher frequency 
versions with multiple receivers. If the 7300 had transverter facilities I 
might even have tried one, the price is right I feel.  But I have no interest 
in a radio that only goes up to 70 MHz. I never operate below 50 MHz. 

I still love the KX3 which is my main transceiver for VHF, using an external 
transverter on 2m, building one for 70cm, and just bought a used 4m internal 
transverter for it which should do me for now. It isn't ideal as Elecraft 
didn't put in a transverter socket, but there are ways round it, a lot of 
switch boxes are required to route audio on receive and transmit for digital 
and SSB, and a frequency decoder on the RS-232 is needed to route RF and PTT 
send to the appropriate transverter.  

Perhaps a future KX4 might be less of a field radio and more of a shack radio 
so that less clutter is needed in the shack. 

I didn't go for a K3 or K3S as the KX3 does nearly everything I need and I feel 
that a new generation SDR radio must be coming along, so I will wait and see 
what happens. 

73 from David GM4JJJ

> On 25 May 2016, at 11:01, Andy McMullin  wrote:
> 
> But isn't that the point? 
> 
> The KXn family ARE SDR, with I and Q outputs ready for excellent pandapter 
> display with the PXn. 
> 
> Just want VHF/UHF instead of HF and it's all there. 
> 
> Andy, G8TQH
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 25 May 2016, at 09:43, David Anderson via Elecraft 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> When I was active on the linear transponders of AO6 through to AO13 I never 
>> used a satellite duplex radio, always separates. We had much better 
>> satellites then, in decent orbits like AO-10. So Yaesu in particular brought 
>> out lovely expensive duplex radios. Great! However then the linear sats 
>> gradually died and were replaced by digital radio sats. Some FM one channel 
>> toy sats, but nothing like the old wide linear transponders.
>> 
>> Only recently with FunCube and the Chinese Sats have we started to get 
>> linear voice transponders back, but again in low fast moving orbits.
>> 
>> Many are now making use of SDR dongles or other SDR receivers as their 
>> receiver for sats, because they have many advantages over the old way of 
>> just being able to listen to your own receive channel. With an SDR and 
>> panoramic can see all of the passband of the transponder or transponders on 
>> multiple satellites at once. You can point and click on a signal of 
>> interest. Record the whole pass and play it back and see who you missed in 
>> the very short pass.   You can run the SDR on a tablet computer in the 
>> field, and have more capability than your old FT-736R of olden days.
>> 
>> In 

Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)

[brian]

I should be the last person on earth to comment on this.

If there is such a large market in EU then it suggests that an EU 
manufacturer ought to be the source. Why hasn't that happened?


One factor missing from your 1000 estimate is the fraction that are 
likely to buy.  Clearly active stations already have their own gear.


My experience with satellites is minimal. 1000 contacts.  The trouble 
was that represented less than 50 different stations.  The novelty 
quickly died.  Haven't been back since.


73 de Brian/K3KO

On 5/25/2016 4:38 AM, Edward R Cole wrote:

There are about 1500-2000 hams active on 2m-eme worldwide; probably
another 1000 on other bands on eme.
VHF+ is huge in EU with contests every month and literally hundreds of
stations working on 10-GHz in the UK and EU.
2m is the most used IF for mw.

On VHF and UHF up to 1296 there are probably five times as many active
hams as in the US.  A radio as I described would be well received by
this segment of ham radio.

Would 1,000 ordered the first month be adequate?

73, Ed - KL7UW
PS: you would be surprised how many KX3 are in use as IF for VHF and
higher bands.  KX2 will probably see some of this use as well.

Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 15:16:38 -0700
From: Phil Wheeler <w...@socal.rr.com>
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)
Message-ID: <7f140668-ae11-ec14-9ac4-91a72a13a...@socal.rr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

Ed, re "Who will build it?": It seems the market
must be large enough to justify the investment. I
wonder if it really is?

73, Phil W7OX



73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
 "Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
 dubus...@gmail.com

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[Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)

[Johnny Siu via Elecraft]

Instead of developing a new radio for SAT.  Can there be a device that can link 
two elecraft radios for up / downlink of SAT?
In the past, CT16 can link Icom IC275 and IC475 to work as a pair.
I think this route will save a lot of R for a new radio.
73
Johnny VR2XMC

  寄件人︰ Edward R Cole <kl...@acsalaska.net>
 收件人︰ David Anderson <gm4...@yahoo.co.uk> 
副本(CC)︰ Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
 傳送日期︰ 2016年05月25日 (週三) 6:47 PM
 主題︰ Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)
   
David,

At 12:43 AM 5/25/2016, David Anderson wrote:
>When I was active on the linear transponders of AO6 through to AO13 
>I never used a satellite duplex radio, always separates. We had much 
>better satellites then, in decent orbits like AO-10. So Yaesu in 
>particular brought out lovely expensive duplex radios. Great! 
>However then the linear sats gradually died and were replaced by 
>digital radio sats. Some FM one channel toy sats, but nothing like 
>the old wide linear transponders.

The FT-736R and other dual-band multi-mode duplex radios were 
produced for the early Heo linear transponder sats - true.  And the 
market for expensive big box radios faded with only single channel FM 
Leo sats.  Understandable that mfrs would go where the market is 
largest.  Kenwood and Icom still market such a radio; Yaesu 
stopped.  But they didn't drop out of the multi-mode VHF radio 
market...just a duplex model.


>Only recently with FunCube and the Chinese Sats have we started to 
>get linear voice transponders back, but again in low fast moving orbits.
>
>Many are now making use of SDR dongles or other SDR receivers as 
>their receiver for sats, because they have many advantages over the 
>old way of just being able to listen to your own receive channel. 
>With an SDR and panoramic can see all of the passband of the 
>transponder or transponders on multiple satellites at once. You can 
>point and click on a signal of interest. Record the whole pass and 
>play it back and see who you missed in the very short pass.  You 
>can run the SDR on a tablet computer in the field, and have more 
>capability than your old FT-736R of olden days.

And my proposal was not for such?  Clearly I stated it should be a 
direct frequency SDR, but married with a transmitter which the 
funcubes aren't.  I mentioned a panadapter and IQ interface to 
computer to support modern sw.


>In short, until we have high orbit transponders on VHF UHF like 
>AO-10/13 no manufacturer is going to produce an FT-736R replacement.

I bought an old FT-736R for more reasons than for satellite.  But 
that should not be confused with my proposal for a KX3-like duplex 
radio.  Certainly one would not compare the KX3 with a 
FT-840.  Totally a different product.  Totally new tech.

>  Any plans for a geostationary satellite would not use VHF UHF, but 
> microwave to get the bandwidth required for a third of the world 
> trying to access it at one time all the time.

Yes, that is true.  That will involve a new mw radio designed for the 
digital modes to be used.  Amsat is cognizant of the fact that hams 
will not be easily do this as was done for AO-40 s-band using surplus 
stuff.  The VHF radio + transverter will not suffice.  The concept 
under consideration includes SDR tech.


>Things have moved on, a single duplex box isn't what is needed.  A 
>transmitter CAT coupled to an SDR panoramic receiver is much better. 
>Point on the screen on the signal you see and with Doppler corrected 
>software set the transmitter you have via CAT to the uplink 
>frequency. It is also magnitudes cheaper.

Is that not what I talked about?  The KX3 is a SDR though limited to 
HF/6m + 2m transverter.  Perhaps a wide-range SDR would be better but 
you still need a comparable transmitter which can operate in 
duplex.  At present this still is a bunch of boxes wired together 
requiring a lot of engineering by the individual vs a complete package.

And such equipment should have more than a single application like 
satellite but instead offer a wide range of VHF+ operational activity 
- so one could buy just one box for doing all.  But you are correct 
that the concept should incorporate newest SDR technology with ample 
use of computing power.  I believe I mentioned all those requirements.

Maybe one can build a wide-range SDR based radio without need for 
transverters.  A SDR that tunes 50-4000 MHz but with comparable 
transmit capability.  I'm not sure that one can do direct freq SDR 
that far with existing tech. One thing to guard against is thinking 
SDR means only a receiver (which current funcube are).

It may be that we are too soon to accomplish that?  The first guy to 
do it will have the market.



73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
    "Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
    dubus...@gmail.com

__
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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)

[Edward R Cole]

David,

At 12:43 AM 5/25/2016, David Anderson wrote:
When I was active on the linear transponders of AO6 through to AO13 
I never used a satellite duplex radio, always separates. We had much 
better satellites then, in decent orbits like AO-10. So Yaesu in 
particular brought out lovely expensive duplex radios. Great! 
However then the linear sats gradually died and were replaced by 
digital radio sats. Some FM one channel toy sats, but nothing like 
the old wide linear transponders.


The FT-736R and other dual-band multi-mode duplex radios were 
produced for the early Heo linear transponder sats - true.  And the 
market for expensive big box radios faded with only single channel FM 
Leo sats.  Understandable that mfrs would go where the market is 
largest.  Kenwood and Icom still market such a radio; Yaesu 
stopped.  But they didn't drop out of the multi-mode VHF radio 
market...just a duplex model.



Only recently with FunCube and the Chinese Sats have we started to 
get linear voice transponders back, but again in low fast moving orbits.


Many are now making use of SDR dongles or other SDR receivers as 
their receiver for sats, because they have many advantages over the 
old way of just being able to listen to your own receive channel. 
With an SDR and panoramic can see all of the passband of the 
transponder or transponders on multiple satellites at once. You can 
point and click on a signal of interest. Record the whole pass and 
play it back and see who you missed in the very short pass.   You 
can run the SDR on a tablet computer in the field, and have more 
capability than your old FT-736R of olden days.


And my proposal was not for such?  Clearly I stated it should be a 
direct frequency SDR, but married with a transmitter which the 
funcubes aren't.  I mentioned a panadapter and IQ interface to 
computer to support modern sw.



In short, until we have high orbit transponders on VHF UHF like 
AO-10/13 no manufacturer is going to produce an FT-736R replacement.


I bought an old FT-736R for more reasons than for satellite.  But 
that should not be confused with my proposal for a KX3-like duplex 
radio.  Certainly one would not compare the KX3 with a 
FT-840.  Totally a different product.  Totally new tech.


 Any plans for a geostationary satellite would not use VHF UHF, but 
microwave to get the bandwidth required for a third of the world 
trying to access it at one time all the time.


Yes, that is true.  That will involve a new mw radio designed for the 
digital modes to be used.  Amsat is cognizant of the fact that hams 
will not be easily do this as was done for AO-40 s-band using surplus 
stuff.  The VHF radio + transverter will not suffice.  The concept 
under consideration includes SDR tech.



Things have moved on, a single duplex box isn't what is needed.  A 
transmitter CAT coupled to an SDR panoramic receiver is much better. 
Point on the screen on the signal you see and with Doppler corrected 
software set the transmitter you have via CAT to the uplink 
frequency. It is also magnitudes cheaper.


Is that not what I talked about?  The KX3 is a SDR though limited to 
HF/6m + 2m transverter.  Perhaps a wide-range SDR would be better but 
you still need a comparable transmitter which can operate in 
duplex.  At present this still is a bunch of boxes wired together 
requiring a lot of engineering by the individual vs a complete package.


And such equipment should have more than a single application like 
satellite but instead offer a wide range of VHF+ operational activity 
- so one could buy just one box for doing all.  But you are correct 
that the concept should incorporate newest SDR technology with ample 
use of computing power.  I believe I mentioned all those requirements.


Maybe one can build a wide-range SDR based radio without need for 
transverters.  A SDR that tunes 50-4000 MHz but with comparable 
transmit capability.  I'm not sure that one can do direct freq SDR 
that far with existing tech. One thing to guard against is thinking 
SDR means only a receiver (which current funcube are).


It may be that we are too soon to accomplish that?  The first guy to 
do it will have the market.




73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
dubus...@gmail.com

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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)

[Andy McMullin]

But isn't that the point? 

The KXn family ARE SDR, with I and Q outputs ready for excellent pandapter 
display with the PXn. 

Just want VHF/UHF instead of HF and it's all there. 

Andy, G8TQH

Sent from my iPhone

> On 25 May 2016, at 09:43, David Anderson via Elecraft 
>  wrote:
> 
> When I was active on the linear transponders of AO6 through to AO13 I never 
> used a satellite duplex radio, always separates. We had much better 
> satellites then, in decent orbits like AO-10. So Yaesu in particular brought 
> out lovely expensive duplex radios. Great! However then the linear sats 
> gradually died and were replaced by digital radio sats. Some FM one channel 
> toy sats, but nothing like the old wide linear transponders.
> 
> Only recently with FunCube and the Chinese Sats have we started to get linear 
> voice transponders back, but again in low fast moving orbits.
> 
> Many are now making use of SDR dongles or other SDR receivers as their 
> receiver for sats, because they have many advantages over the old way of just 
> being able to listen to your own receive channel. With an SDR and panoramic 
> can see all of the passband of the transponder or transponders on multiple 
> satellites at once. You can point and click on a signal of interest. Record 
> the whole pass and play it back and see who you missed in the very short 
> pass.   You can run the SDR on a tablet computer in the field, and have more 
> capability than your old FT-736R of olden days.
> 
> In short, until we have high orbit transponders on VHF UHF like AO-10/13 no 
> manufacturer is going to produce an FT-736R replacement. Any plans for a 
> geostationary satellite would not use VHF UHF, but microwave to get the 
> bandwidth required for a third of the world trying to access it at one time 
> all the time.
> 
> Things have moved on, a single duplex box isn't what is needed.  A 
> transmitter CAT coupled to an SDR panoramic receiver is much better. Point on 
> the screen on the signal you see and with Doppler corrected software set the 
> transmitter you have via CAT to the uplink frequency. It is also magnitudes 
> cheaper. 
> 
> 
> 73 from David GM4JJJ
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)

[David Anderson via Elecraft]

When I was active on the linear transponders of AO6 through to AO13 I never 
used a satellite duplex radio, always separates. We had much better satellites 
then, in decent orbits like AO-10. So Yaesu in particular brought out lovely 
expensive duplex radios. Great! However then the linear sats gradually died and 
were replaced by digital radio sats. Some FM one channel toy sats, but nothing 
like the old wide linear transponders.

Only recently with FunCube and the Chinese Sats have we started to get linear 
voice transponders back, but again in low fast moving orbits.

Many are now making use of SDR dongles or other SDR receivers as their receiver 
for sats, because they have many advantages over the old way of just being able 
to listen to your own receive channel. With an SDR and panoramic can see all of 
the passband of the transponder or transponders on multiple satellites at once. 
You can point and click on a signal of interest. Record the whole pass and play 
it back and see who you missed in the very short pass.   You can run the SDR on 
a tablet computer in the field, and have more capability than your old FT-736R 
of olden days.

In short, until we have high orbit transponders on VHF UHF like AO-10/13 no 
manufacturer is going to produce an FT-736R replacement. Any plans for a 
geostationary satellite would not use VHF UHF, but microwave to get the 
bandwidth required for a third of the world trying to access it at one time all 
the time.

Things have moved on, a single duplex box isn't what is needed.  A transmitter 
CAT coupled to an SDR panoramic receiver is much better. Point on the screen on 
the signal you see and with Doppler corrected software set the transmitter you 
have via CAT to the uplink frequency. It is also magnitudes cheaper. 


73 from David GM4JJJ
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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)

[Andy McMullin]

I hate saying "me too" but I think you've put it succinctly. 

There used to be a range of VHF/UHF  capable satellite rigs but these days the 
user seems left to secondhand, huge base station or complex Yaesu menus (with 
tiny display). Elecraft could wipe the floor. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On 24 May 2016, at 18:56, Barry Baines  wrote:
> 
> Ed:
> 
> Please allow me to second your suggestion for a “KXV3Sat”, though a KX2 
> derivative with FM + VHF + UHF and full duplex would certainly be another 
> option that would be very intriguing. Whether such a design built into a 
> K2/K3 footprint (with or without HF) is feasible from an engineering/cost of 
> production perspective is something else… 
> 
> Given the rapid growth of the amateur satellite ’fleet,’ there are plenty of 
> opportunities to take advantage of such a product for satellite operations.  
> AMSAT-NA’s AO-85 (FM) was placed in service in October, 2015.  Between now 
> and January there will be three more FM Cubesats built by AMSAT-NA that will 
> be launched.  In addition, AMSAT-NA is building a 30 KHz wide linear 
> transponder satellite (Fox-1E).  AMSAT-UK launched FunCube-1 (AO-73) which is 
> also a linear transponder satellite.  The Chinese placed a number of sats 
> last fall in orbit on one launcher  with a variety of capabilities, including 
> liner transponder.  These satellites, coupled with FO-29 and AO-7 are 
> certainly candidates for operating with a low power, SSB/CW capable 
> transceiver operating duplex.
> 
> As you know, a number of satellite operators are working these satellites in 
> the field using an Arrow or Elk Antenna with the FT-817x class transceivers 
> which to my knowledge is the only backpack size QRP-capable HF-VHF-UHF 
> multimode radio with built-in battery for portable operation in the field 
> currently on the market.  The FT-817x is not full duplex, so satellite 
> operators use two of these radios to be able to hear their downlink when 
> working the linear transponder satellites.  While the FT-817x does work well 
> for this type of operation, it does have a confusing set of options in the 
> menu and in my opinion is  more difficult to learn to operate than what 
> Elecraft offers in their firmware architecture;  having to use for FT-817s 
> for full duplex adds to the complexity and cost of such operations. Interest 
> in satellite operations is increasing and such a product would spur further 
> growth.  It seems to me that an Elecraft-designed radio capable of FM + UHF + 
> VHF + full duplex in an integrated package with the footprint of a KX2 or the 
> KX3 would be a winner; a HT-size transceiver (KX2) capable of working the 
> linear satellites plus the FM sates would be a game changer for satellite 
> operators.
> 
> FWIW,
> 
> Barry Baines, WD4ASW
> Westborough, MA
> (Currently in Deshler, OH after ’surviving’ Hamvention)
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On May 24, 2016, at 1:11 PM, Edward R Cole  wrote:
>> 
>> One type of radio that Elecraft has avoided making to date:
>> multi-band, multi-mode VHF/UHF, cross-band duplex radio.
>> 
>> I recently bought a (not new) radio that, at its time, was considered one of 
>> the finest radios for this:
>> Yaesu FT-736R.  It is still held in considerable respect.
>> 
>> I wanted a VHF/UHF multi-mode radio capable of satellite operation and had 
>> considered a cross-band duplex-capable FM mobile radio, but it would have 
>> limited me to FM.  For approximately $200 more I obtained a "cherry" FT-736R 
>> with basic 2m/70cm capability.
>> 
>> The radio is capable of expansion to two more bands via installation of 
>> internal modules for 6m, 220, and 1.2 GHz.  Quite a remarkable model of 
>> adaptability for its time.
>> 
>> I previously owned its successor, the  FT-847, which was HF, 6m, 2m, 70cm.  
>> But on used market cost double what I spent on the FT-736R.
>> 
>> Had Elecraft offered a VHF/UHF cross-band duplex multi-mode radio I would 
>> have considered it.  Nothing on the current market equals the Elecraft radio 
>> quality (my opinion).  I chose the K3/10 plus transverters for eme, but the 
>> K3 is not capable of duplex operation.
>> 
>> If a KVX3sat were produced - I think the market is there.  Current 
>> competitors: IC-9100 and TS2000X;Yaesu is out of the satellite radio market.
>> 
>> 73, Ed - KL7UW
>> http://www.kl7uw.com
>>   "Kits made by KL7UW"
>> Dubus Mag business:
>>   dubus...@gmail.com
>> 
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> 
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> Home: 

Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)

[Edward R Cole]

There are about 1500-2000 hams active on 2m-eme worldwide; probably 
another 1000 on other bands on eme.
VHF+ is huge in EU with contests every month and literally hundreds 
of stations working on 10-GHz in the UK and EU.

2m is the most used IF for mw.

On VHF and UHF up to 1296 there are probably five times as many 
active hams as in the US.  A radio as I described would be well 
received by this segment of ham radio.


Would 1,000 ordered the first month be adequate?

73, Ed - KL7UW
PS: you would be surprised how many KX3 are in use as IF for VHF and 
higher bands.  KX2 will probably see some of this use as well.


Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 15:16:38 -0700
From: Phil Wheeler <w...@socal.rr.com>
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)
Message-ID: <7f140668-ae11-ec14-9ac4-91a72a13a...@socal.rr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

Ed, re "Who will build it?": It seems the market
must be large enough to justify the investment. I
wonder if it really is?

73, Phil W7OX



73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
dubus...@gmail.com

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[Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)

[Johnny Siu via Elecraft]

Hello Elecrafters,
I, of course, like the idea of SAT derivative.  However, as mentioned in my 
previous post, both KX2 and K3S are product life cycle extension to fully 
utilize the spent R  These products are only evolution and not revolution.
I have much doubt on the market size of so called satellite radio from 
Elecraft.  With a look of the XV transverters especially the XV432, they are 
not cheap but there are issues such as heat issues under full specification 
output / power and frequency instabilities etc.
Hence, I am looking for something revolutionary and not evolutionary from 
Elecraft.  Both K3 and KX3 were revolutionary at the time of announcement.  
When I saw KX3 in 2011 Dayton, I was surprised and thought KX3 would kill all 
other brands QRP ham radios.
73
Johnny VR2XMC
previously XV50, XV144 and XV432

  寄件人︰ Kevin Stover <kevin.sto...@mediacombb.net>
 收件人︰ elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
 傳送日期︰ 2016年05月25日 (週三) 8:17 AM
 主題︰ Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)
   
I have changed my thinking on this.

My suggestion would be a kick butt single band 6m rig in a K3s box. All 
the bells and whistles the K3s has now with the addition of cross band 
duplex and 100W any mode no time limit. The other bands would be 
installed as transverters in a computer style main board in the rig. 
Each transverter would be capable of 50W minimum output, have it's own 
SO239/N connector. The current K3EXTREF would be standard for 10MHz 
reference, as well as a 0.5 ppm TCXO along with RX I/Q out ala KX3. A 
V/UHF version of the P3 would have to be offered for the computer averse 
among us.

Call it the K3s SAT+.

On 5/24/2016 6:44 PM, Kevin Stover wrote:
> I like it!
> Especially the laptop style dock.
>
> On 5/24/2016 4:33 PM, Edward R Cole wrote:
>> I replied in depth to Barry but let me share that more briefly with 
>> the List:
>>
>> My vision for a "KXV3sat" would be based on a 50-MHz direct 
>> conversion SDR (if that is practical at this time).
>> That would establish the IF for other bands which would be 
>> accomplished with transverters.  HF would be unnecessary and just 
>> take up valuable real estate inside the radio.
>>
>> To keep a KX3 sized concept power would likely be held to 10w on 2m 
>> and 70cm.  The radio would have IQ baseband access for running other 
>> sw on external computers.  Similar I/F for Line in audio and computer 
>> PTT would enable use of  sw other than the internal DSP.  SDR means 
>> any number of modes could be accommodated.  Stable LO would be 
>> required for NB digital modes and use with mw.  Full cross-band 
>> duplex plus computer tuning of both VFO's to enable satellite 
>> auto-tune from external sw.  BNC would suffice for ANT connections 
>> since power is low.  Battery operation (option).
>>
>> An option would be a K3 sized transverter housing which modules for 
>> 222, 432, 902, and 1.2 GHz that could be added making a complete 
>> 50-1296 package, or just what you want.  The KXV3sat would dock to 
>> this "console" for 'no external interconnect' wiring package.  
>> Probably modules would be 10w or maybe 25w.  If enough room, 60-80w 
>> PA boards might be included for 6m/2m/70cm. Though there are ext. 
>> PA's available from the ham community.
>>
>> Keeping the power down in the KXV3sat would make it usable for 
>> portable operating and keep it light.  Also 100w linears would likely 
>> add $300 per band to the total price.
>>
>> Design considerations would emcompass VHF/UHF SSB/CW/FM plus digital 
>> modes.  Interconnection for ext amps, ext freq. source, ext computer 
>> I/F, Panadaptor.  One could operate satellite in full-duplex and 
>> operating eme/ms/weak-signal modes.  Perhaps optional Rx antenna 
>> ports could be incorporated as options.
>>
>> My belief there is a large market for such a radio.  Satellite 
>> population is on the rise, so is small-scale eme.  VHF/eme 
>> Dxpeditions are on the rise for which a small footprint is desirable 
>> for airline baggage.
>>
>> Who will build it?
>>
>> 73, Ed - KL7UW
>> http://www.kl7uw.com
>>    "Kits made by KL7UW"
>> Dubus Mag business:
>>    dubus...@gmail.com
>>
>> __
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>>
>
>


--

Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)

[Kevin Stover]

I have changed my thinking on this.

My suggestion would be a kick butt single band 6m rig in a K3s box. All 
the bells and whistles the K3s has now with the addition of cross band 
duplex and 100W any mode no time limit. The other bands would be 
installed as transverters in a computer style main board in the rig. 
Each transverter would be capable of 50W minimum output, have it's own 
SO239/N connector. The current K3EXTREF would be standard for 10MHz 
reference, as well as a 0.5 ppm TCXO along with RX I/Q out ala KX3. A 
V/UHF version of the P3 would have to be offered for the computer averse 
among us.


Call it the K3s SAT+.

On 5/24/2016 6:44 PM, Kevin Stover wrote:

I like it!
Especially the laptop style dock.

On 5/24/2016 4:33 PM, Edward R Cole wrote:
I replied in depth to Barry but let me share that more briefly with 
the List:


My vision for a "KXV3sat" would be based on a 50-MHz direct 
conversion SDR (if that is practical at this time).
That would establish the IF for other bands which would be 
accomplished with transverters.   HF would be unnecessary and just 
take up valuable real estate inside the radio.


To keep a KX3 sized concept power would likely be held to 10w on 2m 
and 70cm.  The radio would have IQ baseband access for running other 
sw on external computers.  Similar I/F for Line in audio and computer 
PTT would enable use of   sw other than the internal DSP.  SDR means 
any number of modes could be accommodated.  Stable LO would be 
required for NB digital modes and use with mw.  Full cross-band 
duplex plus computer tuning of both VFO's to enable satellite 
auto-tune from external sw.  BNC would suffice for ANT connections 
since power is low.  Battery operation (option).


An option would be a K3 sized transverter housing which modules for 
222, 432, 902, and 1.2 GHz that could be added making a complete 
50-1296 package, or just what you want.  The KXV3sat would dock to 
this "console" for 'no external interconnect' wiring package.  
Probably modules would be 10w or maybe 25w.  If enough room, 60-80w 
PA boards might be included for 6m/2m/70cm. Though there are ext. 
PA's available from the ham community.


Keeping the power down in the KXV3sat would make it usable for 
portable operating and keep it light.  Also 100w linears would likely 
add $300 per band to the total price.


Design considerations would emcompass VHF/UHF SSB/CW/FM plus digital 
modes.  Interconnection for ext amps, ext freq. source, ext computer 
I/F, Panadaptor.  One could operate satellite in full-duplex and 
operating eme/ms/weak-signal modes.  Perhaps optional Rx antenna 
ports could be incorporated as options.


My belief there is a large market for such a radio.  Satellite 
population is on the rise, so is small-scale eme.  VHF/eme 
Dxpeditions are on the rise for which a small footprint is desirable 
for airline baggage.


Who will build it?

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
dubus...@gmail.com

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SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441



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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)

[Kevin Stover]

I like it!
Especially the laptop style dock.

On 5/24/2016 4:33 PM, Edward R Cole wrote:
I replied in depth to Barry but let me share that more briefly with 
the List:


My vision for a "KXV3sat" would be based on a 50-MHz direct conversion 
SDR (if that is practical at this time).
That would establish the IF for other bands which would be 
accomplished with transverters.   HF would be unnecessary and just 
take up valuable real estate inside the radio.


To keep a KX3 sized concept power would likely be held to 10w on 2m 
and 70cm.  The radio would have IQ baseband access for running other 
sw on external computers.  Similar I/F for Line in audio and computer 
PTT would enable use of   sw other than the internal DSP.  SDR means 
any number of modes could be accommodated.  Stable LO would be 
required for NB digital modes and use with mw.  Full cross-band duplex 
plus computer tuning of both VFO's to enable satellite auto-tune from 
external sw.  BNC would suffice for ANT connections since power is 
low.  Battery operation (option).


An option would be a K3 sized transverter housing which modules for 
222, 432, 902, and 1.2 GHz that could be added making a complete 
50-1296 package, or just what you want.  The KXV3sat would dock to 
this "console" for 'no external interconnect' wiring package.  
Probably modules would be 10w or maybe 25w.  If enough room, 60-80w PA 
boards might be included for 6m/2m/70cm.  Though there are ext. PA's 
available from the ham community.


Keeping the power down in the KXV3sat would make it usable for 
portable operating and keep it light.  Also 100w linears would likely 
add $300 per band to the total price.


Design considerations would emcompass VHF/UHF SSB/CW/FM plus digital 
modes.  Interconnection for ext amps, ext freq. source, ext computer 
I/F, Panadaptor.  One could operate satellite in full-duplex and 
operating eme/ms/weak-signal modes.  Perhaps optional Rx antenna ports 
could be incorporated as options.


My belief there is a large market for such a radio.  Satellite 
population is on the rise, so is small-scale eme.  VHF/eme Dxpeditions 
are on the rise for which a small footprint is desirable for airline 
baggage.


Who will build it?

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
dubus...@gmail.com

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R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441



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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)

[Phil Wheeler]

Ed, re "Who will build it?": It seems the market 
must be large enough to justify the investment. I 
wonder if it really is?


73, Phil W7OX

On 5/24/16 2:33 PM, Edward R Cole wrote:
I replied in depth to Barry but let me share 
that more briefly with the List:


My vision for a "KXV3sat" would be based on a 
50-MHz direct conversion SDR (if that is 
practical at this time).
That would establish the IF for other bands 
which would be accomplished with transverters.   
HF would be unnecessary and just take up 
valuable real estate inside the radio.


To keep a KX3 sized concept power would likely 
be held to 10w on 2m and 70cm.  The radio would 
have IQ baseband access for running other sw on 
external computers.  Similar I/F for Line in 
audio and computer PTT would enable use of   sw 
other than the internal DSP.  SDR means any 
number of modes could be accommodated.  Stable 
LO would be required for NB digital modes and 
use with mw.  Full cross-band duplex plus 
computer tuning of both VFO's to enable 
satellite auto-tune from external sw.  BNC would 
suffice for ANT connections since power is low.  
Battery operation (option).


An option would be a K3 sized transverter 
housing which modules for 222, 432, 902, and 1.2 
GHz that could be added making a complete 
50-1296 package, or just what you want.  The 
KXV3sat would dock to this "console" for 'no 
external interconnect' wiring package.  Probably 
modules would be 10w or maybe 25w.  If enough 
room, 60-80w PA boards might be included for 
6m/2m/70cm.  Though there are ext. PA's 
available from the ham community.


Keeping the power down in the KXV3sat would make 
it usable for portable operating and keep it 
light.  Also 100w linears would likely add $300 
per band to the total price.


Design considerations would emcompass VHF/UHF 
SSB/CW/FM plus digital modes.  Interconnection 
for ext amps, ext freq. source, ext computer 
I/F, Panadaptor.  One could operate satellite in 
full-duplex and operating eme/ms/weak-signal 
modes.  Perhaps optional Rx antenna ports could 
be incorporated as options.


My belief there is a large market for such a 
radio.  Satellite population is on the rise, so 
is small-scale eme.  VHF/eme Dxpeditions are on 
the rise for which a small footprint is 
desirable for airline baggage.


Who will build it?

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
dubus...@gmail.com


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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)

[Edward R Cole]

I replied in depth to Barry but let me share that more briefly with the List:

My vision for a "KXV3sat" would be based on a 50-MHz direct 
conversion SDR (if that is practical at this time).
That would establish the IF for other bands which would be 
accomplished with transverters.   HF would be unnecessary and just 
take up valuable real estate inside the radio.


To keep a KX3 sized concept power would likely be held to 10w on 2m 
and 70cm.  The radio would have IQ baseband access for running other 
sw on external computers.  Similar I/F for Line in audio and computer 
PTT would enable use of   sw other than the internal DSP.  SDR means 
any number of modes could be accommodated.  Stable LO would be 
required for NB digital modes and use with mw.  Full cross-band 
duplex plus computer tuning of both VFO's to enable satellite 
auto-tune from external sw.  BNC would suffice for ANT connections 
since power is low.  Battery operation (option).


An option would be a K3 sized transverter housing which modules for 
222, 432, 902, and 1.2 GHz that could be added making a complete 
50-1296 package, or just what you want.  The KXV3sat would dock to 
this "console" for 'no external interconnect' wiring 
package.  Probably modules would be 10w or maybe 25w.  If enough 
room, 60-80w PA boards might be included for 6m/2m/70cm.  Though 
there are ext. PA's available from the ham community.


Keeping the power down in the KXV3sat would make it usable for 
portable operating and keep it light.  Also 100w linears would likely 
add $300 per band to the total price.


Design considerations would emcompass VHF/UHF SSB/CW/FM plus digital 
modes.  Interconnection for ext amps, ext freq. source, ext computer 
I/F, Panadaptor.  One could operate satellite in full-duplex and 
operating eme/ms/weak-signal modes.  Perhaps optional Rx antenna 
ports could be incorporated as options.


My belief there is a large market for such a radio.  Satellite 
population is on the rise, so is small-scale eme.  VHF/eme 
Dxpeditions are on the rise for which a small footprint is desirable 
for airline baggage.


Who will build it?

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
dubus...@gmail.com

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[Elecraft] KX2 Satellite Derivative? (Was: Re: The KX2)

[Barry Baines]

Ed:

Please allow me to second your suggestion for a “KXV3Sat”, though a KX2 
derivative with FM + VHF + UHF and full duplex would certainly be another 
option that would be very intriguing. Whether such a design built into a K2/K3 
footprint (with or without HF) is feasible from an engineering/cost of 
production perspective is something else… 

Given the rapid growth of the amateur satellite ’fleet,’ there are plenty of 
opportunities to take advantage of such a product for satellite operations.  
AMSAT-NA’s AO-85 (FM) was placed in service in October, 2015.  Between now and 
January there will be three more FM Cubesats built by AMSAT-NA that will be 
launched.  In addition, AMSAT-NA is building a 30 KHz wide linear transponder 
satellite (Fox-1E).  AMSAT-UK launched FunCube-1 (AO-73) which is also a linear 
transponder satellite.  The Chinese placed a number of sats last fall in orbit 
on one launcher  with a variety of capabilities, including liner transponder.  
These satellites, coupled with FO-29 and AO-7 are certainly candidates for 
operating with a low power, SSB/CW capable transceiver operating duplex.

As you know, a number of satellite operators are working these satellites in 
the field using an Arrow or Elk Antenna with the FT-817x class transceivers 
which to my knowledge is the only backpack size QRP-capable HF-VHF-UHF 
multimode radio with built-in battery for portable operation in the field 
currently on the market.  The FT-817x is not full duplex, so satellite 
operators use two of these radios to be able to hear their downlink when 
working the linear transponder satellites.  While the FT-817x does work well 
for this type of operation, it does have a confusing set of options in the menu 
and in my opinion is  more difficult to learn to operate than what Elecraft 
offers in their firmware architecture;  having to use for FT-817s for full 
duplex adds to the complexity and cost of such operations. Interest in 
satellite operations is increasing and such a product would spur further 
growth.  It seems to me that an Elecraft-designed radio capable of FM + UHF + 
VHF + full duplex in an integrated package with the footprint of a KX2 or the 
KX3 would be a winner; a HT-size transceiver (KX2) capable of working the 
linear satellites plus the FM sates would be a game changer for satellite 
operators.
  
FWIW,

Barry Baines, WD4ASW
Westborough, MA
(Currently in Deshler, OH after ’surviving’ Hamvention)




> On May 24, 2016, at 1:11 PM, Edward R Cole  wrote:
> 
> One type of radio that Elecraft has avoided making to date:
> multi-band, multi-mode VHF/UHF, cross-band duplex radio.
> 
> I recently bought a (not new) radio that, at its time, was considered one of 
> the finest radios for this:
> Yaesu FT-736R.  It is still held in considerable respect.
> 
> I wanted a VHF/UHF multi-mode radio capable of satellite operation and had 
> considered a cross-band duplex-capable FM mobile radio, but it would have 
> limited me to FM.  For approximately $200 more I obtained a "cherry" FT-736R 
> with basic 2m/70cm capability.
> 
> The radio is capable of expansion to two more bands via installation of 
> internal modules for 6m, 220, and 1.2 GHz.  Quite a remarkable model of 
> adaptability for its time.
> 
> I previously owned its successor, the  FT-847, which was HF, 6m, 2m, 70cm.  
> But on used market cost double what I spent on the FT-736R.
> 
> Had Elecraft offered a VHF/UHF cross-band duplex multi-mode radio I would 
> have considered it.  Nothing on the current market equals the Elecraft radio 
> quality (my opinion).  I chose the K3/10 plus transverters for eme, but the 
> K3 is not capable of duplex operation.
> 
> If a KVX3sat were produced - I think the market is there.  Current 
> competitors: IC-9100 and TS2000X;Yaesu is out of the satellite radio market.
> 
> 73, Ed - KL7UW
> http://www.kl7uw.com
>"Kits made by KL7UW"
> Dubus Mag business:
>dubus...@gmail.com
> 
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