Re: [Elecraft] S: Re: Elecraft Utilities

2016-04-09 Thread Dave Cole 
No one said anything about a warranty fix, in fact I mentioned a few
days ago that Elecraft might be discovering a profit center...

Please expand on just exactly what is so telling?

-- 
73's, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)

For software/hardware reviews see:
http://www.nk7z.net

For MixW support see:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info

For SSTV help see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info


On Sat, 2016-04-09 at 13:32 -0500, Kevin Stover wrote:
> And who gets to fix the radio, under warrantee of course, when this
> home 
> brewed command line utility bricks the radio? Through this whole 
> discussion I've heard very little from proponents of open sourcing
> the 
> utilities on this minor little point. Telling isn't it.
> 
> This could be a profit center for Elecraft now that I think about it.
> If 
> it were me, I'd charge $1,500 to fix any Elecraft product which has
> had 
> it's brains blown out by some home brewed and unsupported flash
> utility.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 4/9/2016 1:13 PM, ei6iz.Brendan Minish wrote:
> > 
> > I think that all most of us would need would be a command line
> > utility that
> > can be used to update firmware and perhaps back up settings.
> > Either making this open source or just releasing the protocol spec
> > would be
> > all that's needed.
> > This would not require the firmware to be open sourced, it would
> > just mean
> > that the Elecraft provided firmwares can be uploaded  to the radio.
> > 
> > Icing on the cake would be the ability to make radio backups
> > 
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] S: Re: Elecraft Utilities

2016-04-09 Thread Kevin Stover 

My perspective comes from the early days of home brewing PC's.
In the "good old days" with soldered BIOS EEPROMS and manufacturer 
approved command line flash utilities it was entirely possible to trash 
a motherboard. Lose power during a BIOS update or a cosmic ray takes out 
a section of the chip (I'm only partially kidding) and you got to buy a 
new motherboard. Your chances were 60/40 at best, a little better than 
flipping a coin. Next came socketed BIOS where all you had to do after a 
failed flash was buy a new chip from AMI, Award or Phoenix.


These days with dual BIOS chips on board, BIOS backed up to hard drive 
and GUI flash utilities it's a lot easier to recover from a failed flash 
and not nearly as expensive, but failures still happen. That's with mobo 
manufacturer approved and supplied utilities. How many posts do we get 
here a month from folks who have to do an EEINIT or at the very least 
re-flash after a failure?


If I was Elecraft I would run away from this potential Pandora's Box 
rapidly.



On 4/9/2016 1:43 PM, Ken G Kopp wrote:

Well said, Kevin!

This was my initial intent when I started this thread,
but you've done a better job of stating the obvious.

73!

Ken Kopp - K0PP




--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] S: Re: Elecraft Utilities

2016-04-09 Thread Doug Person via Elecraft 
If it works it's not likely to brick the K3.  The Utility program has 
nothing to do with the firmware.  Either the connection to the K3 works 
or it doesn't.  Once it works, loading the firmware is not complicated.


An awful lot of linux programs have been successfully recompiled to work 
on the non X86 platforms.  The catalog on the Pi is uuugh.  So its hard 
to say how complicated it would be to recompile for the Pi (and 
others).  Could be fairly trivial. All depends on how well it conforms 
to the standard linux libraries.


What linux et, al lacks is a good best practices to guide developers 
down a path of using a very standard collection of libs that are 
generally available on 99% of linux distros.  Right now it's the wild 
west and the linux reputation suffers as a result.


So, I hope all the Elecraft linux software becomes available for Pi.  If 
not - oh well.  Tiny X86 boxes are right around the corner.


Doug -- K0DXV

On 4/9/2016 11:32 AM, Kevin Stover wrote:
And who gets to fix the radio, under warrantee of course, when this 
home brewed command line utility bricks the radio? Through this whole 
discussion I've heard very little from proponents of open sourcing the 
utilities on this minor little point. Telling isn't it.


This could be a profit center for Elecraft now that I think about it. 
If it were me, I'd charge $1,500 to fix any Elecraft product which has 
had it's brains blown out by some home brewed and unsupported flash 
utility.





On 4/9/2016 1:13 PM, ei6iz.Brendan Minish wrote:
I think that all most of us would need would be a command line 
utility that

can be used to update firmware and perhaps back up settings.
Either making this open source or just releasing the protocol spec 
would be

all that's needed.
This would not require the firmware to be open sourced, it would just 
mean

that the Elecraft provided firmwares can be uploaded  to the radio.

Icing on the cake would be the ability to make radio backups





__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

[Elecraft] S: Re: Elecraft Utilities

2016-04-09 Thread Ken G Kopp 
Well said, Kevin!

This was my initial intent when I started this thread,
but you've done a better job of stating the obvious.

73!

Ken Kopp - K0PP


On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 12:32 PM, Kevin Stover 
wrote:

> And who gets to fix the radio, under warrantee of course, when this home
> brewed command

line utility bricks the radio? Through this whole discussion I've heard
> very little from proponents

   of open sourcing the utilities on this minor little point. Telling isn't
it.

This could be a profit center for Elecraft now that I think about it. If it
were me, I'd charge $1,500
to fix any Elecraft product which has had it's brains blown out by some
home brewed and unsupported
flash utility.





On 4/9/2016 1:13 PM, ei6iz.Brendan Minish wrote:

> I think that all most of us would need would be a command line utility that
>> can be used to update firmware and perhaps back up settings.
>> Either making this open source or just releasing the protocol spec would
>> be
>> all that's needed.
>> This would not require the firmware to be open sourced, it would just mean
>> that the Elecraft provided firmwares can be uploaded  to the radio.
>>
>> Icing on the cake would be the ability to make radio backups
>>
>>
> --
> R. Kevin Stover
> AC0H
> ARRL
> FISTS #11993
> SKCC #215
> NAQCC #3441
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to kengk...@gmail.com
>
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] S: Re: Elecraft Utilities

2016-04-09 Thread Kevin Stover 
And who gets to fix the radio, under warrantee of course, when this home 
brewed command line utility bricks the radio? Through this whole 
discussion I've heard very little from proponents of open sourcing the 
utilities on this minor little point. Telling isn't it.


This could be a profit center for Elecraft now that I think about it. If 
it were me, I'd charge $1,500 to fix any Elecraft product which has had 
it's brains blown out by some home brewed and unsupported flash utility.





On 4/9/2016 1:13 PM, ei6iz.Brendan Minish wrote:

I think that all most of us would need would be a command line utility that
can be used to update firmware and perhaps back up settings.
Either making this open source or just releasing the protocol spec would be
all that's needed.
This would not require the firmware to be open sourced, it would just mean
that the Elecraft provided firmwares can be uploaded  to the radio.

Icing on the cake would be the ability to make radio backups



--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] S: Re: Elecraft Utilities

2016-04-09 Thread ei6iz.Brendan Minish 
I think that all most of us would need would be a command line utility that
can be used to update firmware and perhaps back up settings.
Either making this open source or just releasing the protocol spec would be
all that's needed.
This would not require the firmware to be open sourced, it would just mean
that the Elecraft provided firmwares can be uploaded  to the radio.

Icing on the cake would be the ability to make radio backups
On 9 Apr 2016 16:28, "James Bennett"  wrote:

> After reading a half-bazillion posts on this I feel compelled to add my
> two cents worth.
>
> I've been around computers a very long time, starting my career back in
> the days of IBM's "big iron" mainframes. Have had my share of Windows-based
> PCs at work and at home, and ten years ago converted to being a "Mac head".
> Early last year I got my first Raspberry Pi and more recently acquired the
> newer version 3. I also run a Ubuntu Linux guest on my iMac under VMware
> Fusion. My primary reason for having these Ubuntu and RPi Linux instances
> was to set up WSJT-X, WSPR, and Quisk so I could experiment with and
> operate a tiny QRPp SDR while my K-line is used as my primary station rig.
>
> What I see as huge stumbling blocks in this whole Linux thing are twofold:
> the need in many cases to compile an application, and having to deal with
> pre-requisite packages. A pre-built package, with everything in it, is
> IMHO, the only way to go. I can't begin to count the number of hours I've
> spent dorking around with this pre-req crud and getting an application
> correctly compiled. These are hours I would have much sooner spent actually
> using the application instead of tracking down what the correct version of
> pre-req I need, where to get it, yada, yada. That stuff is fun for a while
> but not how I want to spend my time.
>
> Anyone new to Linux and used to simply downloading an application from the
> web or dropping a disk into their machine on Windows or a Mac will have a
> real eye opening experience when they first attempt compiling an
> application on Linux. The opportunity for failure is huge and thinking that
> Elecraft would consider for one second having to support this sort of thing
> - hahahahahaha Yeah, if you are a Linux guru it might be a piece of
> cake for you, but for the rest of us - major PITA.
>
>
>
> Jim Bennett / W6JHB
> Folsom, CA
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to ei6iz.bren...@gmail.com
>
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] S: Re: Elecraft Utilities

2016-04-09 Thread James Bennett 
After reading a half-bazillion posts on this I feel compelled to add my two 
cents worth. 

I've been around computers a very long time, starting my career back in the 
days of IBM's "big iron" mainframes. Have had my share of Windows-based PCs at 
work and at home, and ten years ago converted to being a "Mac head". Early last 
year I got my first Raspberry Pi and more recently acquired the newer version 
3. I also run a Ubuntu Linux guest on my iMac under VMware Fusion. My primary 
reason for having these Ubuntu and RPi Linux instances was to set up WSJT-X, 
WSPR, and Quisk so I could experiment with and operate a tiny QRPp SDR while my 
K-line is used as my primary station rig.

What I see as huge stumbling blocks in this whole Linux thing are twofold: the 
need in many cases to compile an application, and having to deal with 
pre-requisite packages. A pre-built package, with everything in it, is IMHO, 
the only way to go. I can't begin to count the number of hours I've spent 
dorking around with this pre-req crud and getting an application correctly 
compiled. These are hours I would have much sooner spent actually using the 
application instead of tracking down what the correct version of pre-req I 
need, where to get it, yada, yada. That stuff is fun for a while but not how I 
want to spend my time.

Anyone new to Linux and used to simply downloading an application from the web 
or dropping a disk into their machine on Windows or a Mac will have a real eye 
opening experience when they first attempt compiling an application on Linux. 
The opportunity for failure is huge and thinking that Elecraft would consider 
for one second having to support this sort of thing - hahahahahaha Yeah, if 
you are a Linux guru it might be a piece of cake for you, but for the rest of 
us - major PITA.



Jim Bennett / W6JHB
Folsom, CA
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] S: Re: Elecraft Utilities

2016-04-09 Thread Doug Person via Elecraft 
X86 processors are now being placed on Arduino sized boards.  There are 
also full X86 computers as small as an over sized dongle. The Raspberry 
Pi is a beautiful piece of engineering.  But, it is only a matter of 
time before you can buy an X86 in a similar package running Windows 10.  
Microsoft has already released Windows 10 for Raspberry PI and the Intel 
Edison is just the first shot at bringing X86 down to the Pi level.  
It's probably just a matter of months before you can choose a Pi or an 
Intel equipped X86 equivalent.


That said, jumping on the Pi train might be short-lived trip.  It's 
probably possible to diddle the compiler settings and get the Utilities 
working on Pi.  But, are there really enough interested parties to make 
that worth while?  Hard to say.


Meanwhile, I love my little Pi boxes and continue to be amazed at what 
they are capable of.


Doug -- K0DXV

On 4/9/2016 5:52 AM, Kevin Stover wrote:

Well
Elecraft have decided to do neither for the time being so

On 4/9/2016 3:20 AM, Andy McMullin wrote:

Don,

Just to clarify. The Raspberry Pi uses a range of completely standard 
Linux operating systems EXCEPT that it does not use the X86 range of 
processors. It uses the ARM range instead. It does not need to 
“emulate” Linux in all aspects — it IS Linux in all aspects. 
Applications that are correctly compiled work just like those for 
other Linux systems. For example, the standard FLDIGI source for 
Linux just recompiles under Linux on the Raspberry Pi and then works.


The designers of the Raspberry Pi are unlikely to rework their 
hardware to use a different processor — especially when the ARM one 
powers so many smartphones and other modern devices and the X86 one 
is hamstrung by needing to retain backwards compatibility with a 
design from over 30 years ago.


On the other hand, for the Elecraft Utilities to work on the Pi, all 
that would be required would be to compile the Linux source BUT for 
the ARM processor rather than the X86. Either Elecraft could do it 
or, as was suggested, they could release the source and (almost) 
anyone could do it.


—
Regards
Andy, G8TQH



On 8 Apr 2016, at 23:32, Don Wilhelm  wrote:

To ask Elecraft to provide Utilities for any and all small operating 
systems is unreasonable IMHO.  The mainstream OS of Windows, Mac and 
Linux *are* supported, but recently there have been a number of OS 
variants that have appeared on the horizon (and there are likely to 
be more to come) and that includes the Rasberry Pi, and several 
other 'computers' that have recently appeared on the hobbyist market.


Just because the most recent device can do RS-232 (or USB) 
communications does not mean it should be individually supported by 
hardware manufacturers.  It would be more productive to encourage 
those writing software for those devices to request that they 
emulate Windows, or Mac, or Linux in all aspects so one could use 
the applications written for those mainstream OS versions to run 
without problems on whichever platform those "hobby" devices may be 
using.


If the Rasberry Pi OS becomes stable over time, and is in use for a 
significant percentage of the Elecraft community, then it may 
eventually be supported on its own,  but for the time being, as I 
understand the Raspberry Pi, its OS is a version of Linux, but not 
everything works like the main Linux platform -- so until you can 
convince the Raspberry Pi developers to create a version of its OS 
that is compatible in all respects to Linux, you will not have 
success.  The market penetration for Raspberry Pi is just not great 
enough at this time for manufacturers to create software that will 
run on it.  Much to the dismay of those who have Raspberry Pi 
running and controlling their ham stations.


73,
Don W3FPR


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to kevin.sto...@mediacombb.net





__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] S: Re: Elecraft Utilities

2016-04-09 Thread Kevin Stover 

Well
Elecraft have decided to do neither for the time being so

On 4/9/2016 3:20 AM, Andy McMullin wrote:

Don,

Just to clarify. The Raspberry Pi uses a range of completely standard Linux 
operating systems EXCEPT that it does not use the X86 range of processors. It 
uses the ARM range instead. It does not need to “emulate” Linux in all aspects 
— it IS Linux in all aspects. Applications that are correctly compiled work 
just like those for other Linux systems. For example, the standard FLDIGI 
source for Linux just recompiles under Linux on the Raspberry Pi and then works.

The designers of the Raspberry Pi are unlikely to rework their hardware to use 
a different processor — especially when the ARM one powers so many smartphones 
and other modern devices and the X86 one is hamstrung by needing to retain 
backwards compatibility with a design from over 30 years ago.

On the other hand, for the Elecraft Utilities to work on the Pi, all that would 
be required would be to compile the Linux source BUT for the ARM processor 
rather than the X86. Either Elecraft could do it or, as was suggested, they 
could release the source and (almost) anyone could do it.

—
Regards
Andy, G8TQH



On 8 Apr 2016, at 23:32, Don Wilhelm  wrote:

To ask Elecraft to provide Utilities for any and all small operating systems is 
unreasonable IMHO.  The mainstream OS of Windows, Mac and Linux *are* 
supported, but recently there have been a number of OS variants that have 
appeared on the horizon (and there are likely to be more to come) and that 
includes the Rasberry Pi, and several other 'computers' that have recently 
appeared on the hobbyist market.

Just because the most recent device can do RS-232 (or USB) communications does not mean 
it should be individually supported by hardware manufacturers.  It would be more 
productive to encourage those writing software for those devices to request that they 
emulate Windows, or Mac, or Linux in all aspects so one could use the applications 
written for those mainstream OS versions to run without problems on whichever platform 
those "hobby" devices may be using.

If the Rasberry Pi OS becomes stable over time, and is in use for a significant 
percentage of the Elecraft community, then it may eventually be supported on 
its own,  but for the time being, as I understand the Raspberry Pi, its OS is a 
version of Linux, but not everything works like the main Linux platform -- so 
until you can convince the Raspberry Pi developers to create a version of its 
OS that is compatible in all respects to Linux, you will not have success.  The 
market penetration for Raspberry Pi is just not great enough at this time for 
manufacturers to create software that will run on it.  Much to the dismay of 
those who have Raspberry Pi running and controlling their ham stations.

73,
Don W3FPR


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to kevin.sto...@mediacombb.net



--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] S: Re: Elecraft Utilities

2016-04-09 Thread Andy McMullin 
Don,

Just to clarify. The Raspberry Pi uses a range of completely standard Linux 
operating systems EXCEPT that it does not use the X86 range of processors. It 
uses the ARM range instead. It does not need to “emulate” Linux in all aspects 
— it IS Linux in all aspects. Applications that are correctly compiled work 
just like those for other Linux systems. For example, the standard FLDIGI 
source for Linux just recompiles under Linux on the Raspberry Pi and then works.

The designers of the Raspberry Pi are unlikely to rework their hardware to use 
a different processor — especially when the ARM one powers so many smartphones 
and other modern devices and the X86 one is hamstrung by needing to retain 
backwards compatibility with a design from over 30 years ago. 

On the other hand, for the Elecraft Utilities to work on the Pi, all that would 
be required would be to compile the Linux source BUT for the ARM processor 
rather than the X86. Either Elecraft could do it or, as was suggested, they 
could release the source and (almost) anyone could do it.

— 
Regards
Andy, G8TQH


> On 8 Apr 2016, at 23:32, Don Wilhelm  wrote:
> 
> To ask Elecraft to provide Utilities for any and all small operating systems 
> is unreasonable IMHO.  The mainstream OS of Windows, Mac and Linux *are* 
> supported, but recently there have been a number of OS variants that have 
> appeared on the horizon (and there are likely to be more to come) and that 
> includes the Rasberry Pi, and several other 'computers' that have recently 
> appeared on the hobbyist market.
> 
> Just because the most recent device can do RS-232 (or USB) communications 
> does not mean it should be individually supported by hardware manufacturers.  
> It would be more productive to encourage those writing software for those 
> devices to request that they emulate Windows, or Mac, or Linux in all aspects 
> so one could use the applications written for those mainstream OS versions to 
> run without problems on whichever platform those "hobby" devices may be using.
> 
> If the Rasberry Pi OS becomes stable over time, and is in use for a 
> significant percentage of the Elecraft community, then it may eventually be 
> supported on its own,  but for the time being, as I understand the Raspberry 
> Pi, its OS is a version of Linux, but not everything works like the main 
> Linux platform -- so until you can convince the Raspberry Pi developers to 
> create a version of its OS that is compatible in all respects to Linux, you 
> will not have success.  The market penetration for Raspberry Pi is just not 
> great enough at this time for manufacturers to create software that will run 
> on it.  Much to the dismay of those who have Raspberry Pi running and 
> controlling their ham stations.
> 
> 73,
> Don W3FPR


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com