Re: [Elecraft] Subject: Re: KXBC3 clock drift

2016-08-28 Thread Joe Stone (KF5WBO) 
>> Re:  "...Tweak the rate a bit each time the clock is set." 
>
> Back in early 2013, there was some discussion on the
> Yahoo Group about doing something like that either
> through the Utility, or even a menu entry with "factor"
> that could be adjusted by the user.  It never went a
> anywhere because most of us just learned to ignore
> the clock, or be sure to reset the clock when we are
> setting up a site.

This was implemented with the KX2, "RTC ADJ".  Any feedback from KX2 owner's
who purchased the KX2 / KXIO2 Real Time Clock?

> If the KX3 clock isn’t stable with temperature, it isn’t worth bothering.

The accuracy of RTC IC's (e.g., DS3231) are typically measured in seconds
per year (+/-2 ppm) across a broad range of temperatures (e.g., 32°F to
104°F).  The KX3 / KXBC3 uses a PIC microcontroller to keep time, not a RTC
IC.

The KX2 manual states, "Monitor your clock's accuracy over 24 hours,
preferably at your typical ambient operating temperature."  I'm not sure
there's such a thing as a "typical ambient operating temperature" for a
portable rig like the KX2 and KX3.

Joe
KF5WBO



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Re: [Elecraft] Subject: Re: KXBC3 clock drift

2016-08-28 Thread Mark via Elecraft 
Re:  "...Tweak the rate a bit each time the clock is set."

Back in early 2013, there was some discussion on the Yahoo Group about doing 
something like that either through the Utility, or even a menu entry with 
"factor" that could be adjusted by the user.  It never went a anywhere because 
most of us just learned to ignore the clock, or be sure to reset the clock when 
we are setting up a site.

As I recall, Wayne's KX3 was far more accurate than some of ours, and he was a 
bit surprised.  Mine was one of the worst ones, but it has either gotten better 
in that 3 year period, or I am more tolerant now than I was then.  I think it 
is the latter since retirement has helped me stop worrying about such little 
things.

Mark
KE6BB


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Re: [Elecraft] Subject: Re: KXBC3 clock drift

2016-08-28 Thread Walter Underwood 
Sometime around 1990, Unix added the adjtime(2) system call. This allowed 
changing the frequency of the system clock, typically by adjusting how many 
wall-time ticks were added per hardware clock tick. If the clock was stable but 
off frequency, progressive adjustments (compared to a reference clock) would 
get it very close to the right frequency. This is pretty much always done with 
NTP, the Network Time Protocol. 

If the KX3 clock is stable and is adjustable, the KX3 Utility could do this. 
Tweak the rate a bit each time the clock is set.

If the KX3 clock isn’t stable with temperature, it isn’t worth bothering.

wunder
Walter Underwood
wun...@wunderwood.org
http://observer.wunderwood.org/  (my blog)

> On Aug 28, 2016, at 4:43 PM, Jim Brown  wrote:
> 
> I don't know either, but need accurate time on my computer to use the various 
> WSJT modes. For about four years, I've used a freeware Windoze utility called 
> NetTime. www.timesynctool.com  There are several other such programs in 
> common use.
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC
> 
> 
> On Sun,8/28/2016 4:02 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
>> There is a difference of about 15 seconds between GPS time and UTC time. GPS 
>> time does not include the recent leap seconds. The GPS message includes the 
>> current difference between GPS time and UTC. I don't know which time the JT 
>> modes use, probably UTC.
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Subject: Re: KXBC3 clock drift

2016-08-28 Thread Jim Brown 
I don't know either, but need accurate time on my computer to use the 
various WSJT modes. For about four years, I've used a freeware Windoze 
utility called NetTime. www.timesynctool.com  There are several other 
such programs in common use.


73, Jim K9YC


On Sun,8/28/2016 4:02 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
There is a difference of about 15 seconds between GPS time and UTC 
time. GPS time does not include the recent leap seconds. The GPS 
message includes the current difference between GPS time and UTC. I 
don't know which time the JT modes use, probably UTC.



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Re: [Elecraft] Subject: Re: KXBC3 clock drift

2016-08-28 Thread Bill Frantz 
There is a difference of about 15 seconds between GPS time and 
UTC time. GPS time does not include the recent leap seconds. The 
GPS message includes the current difference between GPS time and 
UTC. I don't know which time the JT modes use, probably UTC.


See: 
, 
and . For an idea 
of how complex the idea of time really is, see .



The ideal programs to have automatically update the K3(S) and 
KX3 clocks would be logging programs and utilities that are 
running "all the time". RUMlogNG, N2MM, Win4K3Suite, etc.



When I built my BeagleBone Box, a low power computer using a 
BeagleBone system board, I had to add a real-time clock. I chose 
a high precision one, the ChronoDot - Ultra-precise Real Time 
Clock (v2.1) from Adafruit part# 255 = $17.50. I wanted 
precision in case I wanted to run JT modes while out in the wilderness.


I just checked it and found it 23 seconds slow compared with 
NTP. It has been at least 5 months since I synced the clock on 
that computer, and probably a lot more. Not too bad for a clock 
that runs off a button battery. (Hmmm, that describes my watch 
too, but the ChronoDot is significantly more precise.)


73 Bill AE6JV

On 8/28/16 at 2:03 PM, kl...@acsalaska.net (Edward R Cole) wrote:

But if you are off the grid then some other time std is 
needed.  GPS time is probably the answer.  I bought a GPS with 
USB dongle for under $50 dollars which there is software to 
update the computer time.


Now a utility on my computer with access to accurate time that 
could be downloaded to my K3 once per day or once per week 
would be nice.  It could elicit the K3 Utility program to 
connect and update the K3 clock, automatically.  No change to 
the K3 clock hardware would be needed.


Bill Frantz|"Insofar as the propositions of mathematics 
refer to
408-356-8506   | reality, they are not certain; and insofar 
they are
www.pwpconsult.com | certain, they do not refer to reality.” 
-- Einstein


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Re: [Elecraft] Subject: Re: KXBC3 clock drift

2016-08-28 Thread Lewis Phelps 
I concur, and suggest another path for those who have a strong need for 0.01 
second accuracy of their rig’s clock. 

There are Arduino GPS shields available for $40 and less.  If one were so 
inclined, it would seem feasible to use an Arduino with GPS shield connected to 
the serial port of the rig; you could even build a pass-through connector sot 
that other serial devices could be connected. 

Lew N6LEW

> On Aug 28, 2016, at 2:03 PM, Edward R Cole  wrote:
> 
> I think this topic is a little over the edge.
> 
> Do ALL radios have clocks, even??  My 1950's HQ100C had a clock which was 
> option C in the model number.  It was an electric clock.  Do I wish the K3 
> clock kept better time?  Yes, but its not something I'm going to bother 
> Elecraft about.
> 
> Accurate time is required for some digital modes but they run in a computer 
> so that is where accurate time is needed.  Several sources of atomic quality 
> time are available from the Internet.
> 
> But if you are off the grid then some other time std is needed.  GPS time is 
> probably the answer.  I bought a GPS with USB dongle for under $50 dollars 
> which there is software to update the computer time.
> 
> Now a utility on my computer with access to accurate time that could be 
> downloaded to my K3 once per day or once per week would be nice.  It could 
> elicit the K3 Utility program to connect and update the K3 clock, 
> automatically.  No change to the K3 clock hardware would be needed.
> 
> I assume this not rocket science for all you computer whizzes.  I'm not 
> suggesting Elecraft take this on - somebody else.  Surely the K3 utility is 
> not that hard a nut to crack?
> 
> 73, Ed - KL7UW
> http://www.kl7uw.com
>"Kits made by KL7UW"
> Dubus Mag business:
>dubus...@gmail.com
> 
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Lew Phelps N6LEW
Pasadena, CA DM04wd
Elecraft K3-10 / KXV144 / XV432
Yaesu FT-7800 
l...@n6lew.us
www.n6lew.us

Generalized Law of Entropy: Sooner or later, everything that has been put 
together will fall apart.





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[Elecraft] Subject: Re: KXBC3 clock drift

2016-08-28 Thread Edward R Cole 

I think this topic is a little over the edge.

Do ALL radios have clocks, even??  My 1950's HQ100C had a clock which 
was option C in the model number.  It was an electric clock.  Do I 
wish the K3 clock kept better time?  Yes, but its not something I'm 
going to bother Elecraft about.


Accurate time is required for some digital modes but they run in a 
computer so that is where accurate time is needed.  Several sources 
of atomic quality time are available from the Internet.


But if you are off the grid then some other time std is needed.  GPS 
time is probably the answer.  I bought a GPS with USB dongle for 
under $50 dollars which there is software to update the computer time.


Now a utility on my computer with access to accurate time that could 
be downloaded to my K3 once per day or once per week would be 
nice.  It could elicit the K3 Utility program to connect and update 
the K3 clock, automatically.  No change to the K3 clock hardware 
would be needed.


I assume this not rocket science for all you computer whizzes.  I'm 
not suggesting Elecraft take this on - somebody else.  Surely the K3 
utility is not that hard a nut to crack?


73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
dubus...@gmail.com

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