Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft business practices - more info

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

... and being in the service provider business, I can tell you that way 
too many shopping carts are set up on the assumption that the product 
will ship within 24 hours.


The typical developer has never read a merchant credit card agreement, 
and doesn't know that many of them state that you do not charge the card 
until the merchandise is actually shipped.


The developer doesn't seen a need for split transactions, since no one 
ever mentioned that they'd be taking orders for a very expensive product 
with an order backlog.


I'm ashamed of what my industry has become.

-- Lynn

On 2/13/2019 8:52 PM, Cliff Frescura wrote:

Being in the payments industry, I can tell you that most of these policies
are driven by the card brands (Visa, MasterCard, etc.), certifying bodies
(PCI, EMVCo) as well as the payment gateways.  It is a very complicated
chain with many rules.

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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft business practices - more info

[John Simmons]

Cliff,

Thanks for your insightful post. I was in the mail-order biz in the 80s, 
and we had to rely on weekly mailings of flagged credit card numbers. It 
was a PITA to look up every number taken over the phone and most of us 
at this place relied on 'gut' instincts based upon the behavior of the 
caller. Much safer now!


73,
John NI0K


Cliff Frescura 
Wednesday, February 13, 2019 10:52 PM
Being in the payments industry, I can tell you that most of these policies
are driven by the card brands (Visa, MasterCard, etc.), certifying bodies
(PCI, EMVCo) as well as the payment gateways. It is a very complicated
chain with many rules.

The shopping cart either does an immediate charge or what is called a
"pre-auth" where it holds the funds but does not transfer them yet. If and
when they decide to actually charge the card, then a complete/post-auth is
issued. The catch is that if a pre-auth is issued it will reverse
automatically if no complete/post-auth is issued, usually within 24 hours.
So the only practical choice is to charge the card.

The alternative is for the shopping cart to get a card token from the
gateway that it can store and retrieve for later payment. It is 
verboten to

store clear text card numbers, in any media: computer, post it note, etc.
When the order is shipped, operations tells the shopping cart software 
to go

ahead and charge against the card token. In this scenario it would be best
practice to the shopping cart software to also delete the token and
associated card data from the payment gateway, unless the cardholder
explicitly opted in to save card info.

This is not an Elecraft only issue. Payments are very complicated and
challenging for many merchants. Fundamental reasons are for risk reduction
(for all stakeholders) and security.

73,

Cliff K3LL

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Lou Voerman W2ROW
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2019 1:27 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] Elecraft business practices - more info

I heard from Elecraft Sales and will attempt to communicate what I was 
told.


Sales is using a new shopping cart platform which allows them limited time
to capture payment information. As a result, it seems that they are unable
to defer payment in the case of a backorder, so orders are charged
immediately (as was the case for the two orders I placed recently).

They said that they are testing a new application which will allow 
deferring

payment until actual ship time. The target for this application to be
implemented is next month. In the mean time they said they will add a 
refund

offer to the notifications they send to customers when a backorder occurs.

I am generally satisfied with this explanation but would have liked to 
have

told in advance.

Again, I have been a loyal and satisfied Elecraft customer for many years
and am not attempting to in any way talk anyone out of doing business with
them. I was surprised when my credit card was charged twice before 
shipment

was projected to occur and now I have more knowledge.

Thanks,
Lou





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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft business practices - more info

[Cliff Frescura]

Being in the payments industry, I can tell you that most of these policies
are driven by the card brands (Visa, MasterCard, etc.), certifying bodies
(PCI, EMVCo) as well as the payment gateways.  It is a very complicated
chain with many rules.

The shopping cart either does an immediate charge or what is called a
"pre-auth" where it holds the funds but does not transfer them yet.  If and
when they decide to actually charge the card, then a complete/post-auth is
issued.  The catch is that if a pre-auth is issued it will reverse
automatically if no complete/post-auth is issued, usually within 24 hours.
So the only practical choice is to charge the card.

The alternative is for the shopping cart to get a card token from the
gateway that it can store and retrieve for later payment.  It is verboten to
store clear text card numbers, in any media: computer, post it note, etc.
When the order is shipped, operations tells the shopping cart software to go
ahead and charge against the card token.  In this scenario it would be best
practice to the shopping cart software to also delete the token and
associated card data from the payment gateway, unless the cardholder
explicitly opted in to save card info.

This is not an Elecraft only issue.  Payments are very complicated and
challenging for many merchants.  Fundamental reasons are for risk reduction
(for all stakeholders) and security.

73,

Cliff K3LL

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Lou Voerman W2ROW
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2019 1:27 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] Elecraft business practices - more info

I heard from Elecraft Sales and will attempt to communicate what I was told.

Sales is using a new shopping cart platform which allows them limited time
to capture payment information. As a result, it seems that they are unable
to defer payment in the case of a backorder, so orders are charged
immediately (as was the case for the two orders I placed recently). 

They said that they are testing a new application which will allow deferring
payment until actual ship time. The target for this application to be
implemented is next month. In the mean time they said they will add a refund
offer to the notifications they send to customers when a backorder occurs.

I am generally satisfied with this explanation but would have liked to have
told in advance.

Again, I have been a loyal and satisfied Elecraft customer for many years
and am not attempting to in any way talk anyone out of doing business with
them. I was surprised when my credit card was charged twice before shipment
was projected to occur and now I have more knowledge.

Thanks,
Lou





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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft business practices

[Wayne Burdick]

Lou,

I've asked our sales department to investigate this. Sorry for the double 
glitch!

73,
Wayne
N6KR


> On Feb 8, 2019, at 4:41 AM, Lou Voerman W2ROW  wrote:
> 
> Let me start by saying that I am a long term Elecraft customer. I have built
> 4 K2s and a K1. I also own a K3, K3s, KX3, KX2 and other Elecraft gear. I
> helped out for several years as a volunteer in the Elecraft booth at the
> RARS hamfest here in Raleigh.
> 
> Two recent experiences involving backordered AX1s have left me concerned
> because my credit card was charged before Elecraft shipped the product. In
> both cases the backorder turned out to be longer than a month. I was not
> offered a refund on my credit card until I actually cancelled the orders.
> Note this was not a hold of funds on the card, it was an actual charge. In
> the first instance the AX1 was part of a larger order which included a KX2.
> I was charged for the entire order even though the AX1 did not ship. In the
> second instance the AX1 was listed as in stock when I ordered, I was
> notified that there was a week delay and then notified the delay was longer.
> My credit card was charged on the day the order was received by Elecraft. I
> cancelled and am awaiting a refund.
> 
> Back in the early days of internet ordering the most important test of a
> company's business practices was that they not charge a credit card before
> shipment. Amazon is a perfect example of this, they never charge before
> shipment. I will allow for some exceptions where I am told in advance that I
> am placing a preorder and my card will be charged immediately. Elecraft did
> not do this in either case described above.
> 
> The bottom line and based on the experiences above, it appears to be
> Elecraft policy to charge credit cards before shipment. I am extremely
> disappointed with this. Sorry for the long post.
> 
> Lou  W2ROW
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft business practices

[Rich Bobb via Elecraft]

Well stated Lou.

rich



On 2/8/19 07:41, Lou Voerman W2ROW wrote:

Let me start by saying that I am a long term Elecraft customer. I have built
4 K2s and a K1. I also own a K3, K3s, KX3, KX2 and other Elecraft gear. I
helped out for several years as a volunteer in the Elecraft booth at the
RARS hamfest here in Raleigh.

Two recent experiences involving backordered AX1s have left me concerned
because my credit card was charged before Elecraft shipped the product. In
both cases the backorder turned out to be longer than a month. I was not
offered a refund on my credit card until I actually cancelled the orders.
Note this was not a hold of funds on the card, it was an actual charge. In
the first instance the AX1 was part of a larger order which included a KX2.
I was charged for the entire order even though the AX1 did not ship. In the
second instance the AX1 was listed as in stock when I ordered, I was
notified that there was a week delay and then notified the delay was longer.
My credit card was charged on the day the order was received by Elecraft. I
cancelled and am awaiting a refund.

Back in the early days of internet ordering the most important test of a
company's business practices was that they not charge a credit card before
shipment. Amazon is a perfect example of this, they never charge before
shipment. I will allow for some exceptions where I am told in advance that I
am placing a preorder and my card will be charged immediately. Elecraft did
not do this in either case described above.

The bottom line and based on the experiences above, it appears to be
Elecraft policy to charge credit cards before shipment. I am extremely
disappointed with this. Sorry for the long post.

Lou  W2ROW



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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft business practices

[Hank]

This is an issue that should be addressed directly with Elecraft management.  
Obviously it is not an issue that everyone is having - I haven't with anything 
I've ordered.




This is really not a buyer beware issue.


-Original Message- 
> From: "Mike Morrow"  
> To: "Lou Voerman W2ROW" , elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
> Date: 02/08/19 08:42 
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft business practices 
> 
> >As I stated, they did this twice so I suspect more than a glitch.
> >
> >I did try to talk to sales and received several excuses but no definitive
> >answers.
> >
> >Lou W2ROW
> 
> What, EXACTLY, are you expecting readers of the Elecraft list to do for you?
> 
> Mike / KK5F
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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft business practices

[Michael Walker]

Hi John

Interesting story, but without someone from Elecraft jumping in, we are
just guessing.

I suspect it went like this, as I have some experience with online stores.

You placed your order, and the funds show on your credit card as you
ordered.

What you can't tell if the funds are on hold or not.  Those funds may not
have been captured (transferred to their bank).  A hold can last about 3
days before it expires.

If you called your credit card company and they said the funds were
captured, then I guess they were.   The capture is a manual process.  Maybe
they did, maybe they didn't.  But, what is key is the vendor (Elecraft)
takes ALL the risk on a credit card order.   It is easy for you to contest
a sale and the first thing the Bank does is go steal the money back out of
the Vendor's account.  I have seen this happen up to 8 weeks after a sale
to several of my friends who run small hobby businesses.  It is so bad,
they are going to shut down their small online business due to this type of
fraud.

So, next you call and say cancel.  What happened is they likely  jumped
through hoops to save your order and not lose a customer.   Parts missing
could be as simple as a knob or a washer.   Maybe they run over to
HomeDepot. :)

I doubt your order was lost but I do believe the delay was valid.  This is
normal for companies like Elecraft as they build to sales demands.

Elecraft is a very awesome  company and run by some wonderful people.
There is no doubt in my mind they were not trying to scam you or pull the
wool over your eyes.

I have had my share of Credit Card horror stories as I order a lot online.
I have yet to loose a single penny out of my own pocket in 30 years.  In
the 2 times I have issues, Visa quickly refunded my money without
question.

Like I said, it is the vendor that takes all the risk, not the buyer.

Mike va3mw


On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 8:59 AM John Harper  wrote:

> I had a similar issue recently after ordering a KXPA100. The "Status" page
> said they were in stock, both in kit form and completed, so I ordered a
> completed one.
>
> I ordered, my credit card was charged (not a hold of funds - charged).
> After a week I called to find out the status of my order and was told that
> several parts were on backorder and that they were expected the following
> week. I asked the lady to cancel my order. She put me on hold and a man
> then picked up the call, telling me that the amp is "ready to ship and will
> go out today". No thanks.
>
> In retrospect, I believe my order had been lost and would not have been
> found had I not called. I didn't like the fact that my card had been
> charged - I've been told since that this is not legal - or that the item
> wasn't available despite what the Status page said. If they're not going to
> keep it updated, don't have it at all.
>
> The whole thing turned out to be a blessing in disguise:
> https://ae5x.blogspot.com/2018/12/thoughts-on-hardrock-50.html
>
> I continue to enjoy my KX2 and KPA500 ;-)
>
> John AE5X
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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft business practices

[Wes]

How about take note?

On 2/8/2019 6:42 AM, Mike Morrow wrote:

As I stated, they did this twice so I suspect more than a glitch.

I did try to talk to sales and received several excuses but no definitive
answers.

Lou W2ROW

What, EXACTLY, are you expecting readers of the Elecraft list to do for you?

Mike / KK5F
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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft business practices

[Lou Voerman W2ROW]

I am expecting nothing from the list. I am attempting to inform the list
members that at least under certain circumstances Elecraft may charge your
credit card well in advance of shipping. Obviously anyone is free to do
anything they want with this information including completely ignore it.

Lou



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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft business practices

[Mike Morrow]

>As I stated, they did this twice so I suspect more than a glitch.
>
>I did try to talk to sales and received several excuses but no definitive
>answers.
>
>Lou W2ROW

What, EXACTLY, are you expecting readers of the Elecraft list to do for you?

Mike / KK5F
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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft business practices

[Lou Voerman W2ROW]

Hi Don,

As I stated, they did this twice so I suspect more than a glitch.

I did try to talk to sales and received several excuses but no definitive
answers.

Lou W2ROW



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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft business practices

[Don Wilhelm]

Lou,

I believe that was an oversight in sales - likely because you also 
ordered a KX2.


I would suggest that you email sa...@elecraft.com to question if not 
charging before shipment is still the standard practice.


The only time I have heard that Elecraft has pre-charged credit cards is 
when they offered first shipment priority on the KPA1500 if they pre-paid.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/8/2019 7:41 AM, Lou Voerman W2ROW wrote:

Let me start by saying that I am a long term Elecraft customer. I have built
4 K2s and a K1. I also own a K3, K3s, KX3, KX2 and other Elecraft gear. I
helped out for several years as a volunteer in the Elecraft booth at the
RARS hamfest here in Raleigh.

Two recent experiences involving backordered AX1s have left me concerned
because my credit card was charged before Elecraft shipped the product. In
both cases the backorder turned out to be longer than a month. I was not
offered a refund on my credit card until I actually cancelled the orders.
Note this was not a hold of funds on the card, it was an actual charge. In
the first instance the AX1 was part of a larger order which included a KX2.
I was charged for the entire order even though the AX1 did not ship. In the
second instance the AX1 was listed as in stock when I ordered, I was
notified that there was a week delay and then notified the delay was longer.
My credit card was charged on the day the order was received by Elecraft. I
cancelled and am awaiting a refund.

Back in the early days of internet ordering the most important test of a
company's business practices was that they not charge a credit card before
shipment. Amazon is a perfect example of this, they never charge before
shipment. I will allow for some exceptions where I am told in advance that I
am placing a preorder and my card will be charged immediately. Elecraft did
not do this in either case described above.

The bottom line and based on the experiences above, it appears to be
Elecraft policy to charge credit cards before shipment. I am extremely
disappointed with this. Sorry for the long post.

Lou  W2ROW

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