Re: [Emc-users] Control board
On 7 February 2012 01:34, Erik Friesen e...@aercon.net wrote: I feel like I'm fumbling a bit for information on the mesa cards. Is the firmware open source? How does one go about configuring the card? I have a bit of experience with embedded electronics, but working with this is a bit new to me. How configurable is the spi? The SPI is a bit too configurable, and in effect you have to write a sub-driver for any specific new hardware. There is a tool in LinuxCNC for writing real-time drivers and components called comp http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/hal_comp.html To use the Mesa-card BSPI modules you need to write yourself a realtime component using comp. Currently there is only one example which is used by another Mesa card (the 7i65 8x servo control card) http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=emc2.git;a=blob;f=src/hal/drivers/mesa_7i65.comp;h=41bcc37e2a9ab42c4cc00547a20955f7624650a1;hb=HEAD That card has 8x analogue inputs and 8x analogue outputs handled by on-board SPI devices. I think that, for your requirements, a Pico or Mesa board to handle the encoder counting and realtime stuff and a USB-connected Arduino would work well. Bear in mind that even with an encoder the best you can do with steppers is detect a stall or missed steps, recovery isn't really possible as driving a stepper harder == faster only makes things worse. -- atp The idea that there is no such thing as objective truth is, quite simply, wrong. -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Control board
My current spindle is very low tech, a bosch colt. I would use a 4-20ma amp donut, perhaps wind a couple extra loops. I'll have to think this over a bit. It is one thing to write a driver when you have complete docs, yet another when you have to search so many places for all the information. Managing this with a pic32 would be a piece of cake, its just the dev time that holds me back. On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 2:59 AM, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com wrote: On 7 February 2012 01:34, Erik Friesen e...@aercon.net wrote: I feel like I'm fumbling a bit for information on the mesa cards. Is the firmware open source? How does one go about configuring the card? I have a bit of experience with embedded electronics, but working with this is a bit new to me. How configurable is the spi? The SPI is a bit too configurable, and in effect you have to write a sub-driver for any specific new hardware. There is a tool in LinuxCNC for writing real-time drivers and components called comp http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/hal_comp.html To use the Mesa-card BSPI modules you need to write yourself a realtime component using comp. Currently there is only one example which is used by another Mesa card (the 7i65 8x servo control card) http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=emc2.git;a=blob;f=src/hal/drivers/mesa_7i65.comp;h=41bcc37e2a9ab42c4cc00547a20955f7624650a1;hb=HEAD That card has 8x analogue inputs and 8x analogue outputs handled by on-board SPI devices. I think that, for your requirements, a Pico or Mesa board to handle the encoder counting and realtime stuff and a USB-connected Arduino would work well. Bear in mind that even with an encoder the best you can do with steppers is detect a stall or missed steps, recovery isn't really possible as driving a stepper harder == faster only makes things worse. -- atp The idea that there is no such thing as objective truth is, quite simply, wrong. -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Control board
On 7 February 2012 15:10, Erik Friesen e...@aercon.net wrote: I'll have to think this over a bit. It is one thing to write a driver when you have complete docs, yet another when you have to search so many places for all the information. Well, the docs do exist, but don't seem to be linked to the PDF or HTML manuals. man hm2_bspi_setup_chan man hm2_bspi_write_chan man hm2_tram_add_bspi_frame man hm2_allocate_bspi_tram man hm2_bspi_set_read_funtion man hm2_bspi_set_write_function These also might only work in the master development branch. It is pretty experimental at the moment. (There is a UART version of the same thing which is even more experimental) -- atp The idea that there is no such thing as objective truth is, quite simply, wrong. -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Control board
seems like only things that start with hal_ or rtapi_ get built and added to the html from that directory. I assume it is a submakefile thing. None of the man pages are directly included in the PDF docs. John On 2/7/2012 9:36 AM, andy pugh wrote: On 7 February 2012 15:10, Erik Friesene...@aercon.net wrote: I'll have to think this over a bit. It is one thing to write a driver when you have complete docs, yet another when you have to search so many places for all the information. Well, the docs do exist, but don't seem to be linked to the PDF or HTML manuals. man hm2_bspi_setup_chan man hm2_bspi_write_chan man hm2_tram_add_bspi_frame man hm2_allocate_bspi_tram man hm2_bspi_set_read_funtion man hm2_bspi_set_write_function These also might only work in the master development branch. It is pretty experimental at the moment. (There is a UART version of the same thing which is even more experimental) -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Control board
I have also been mulling over the ft232h. I asked ftdi, but never received a reply, about the latency. I assume it is at least 125 usec, but that depends how that everything is managed. If the usb host stack could be hacked to give extra care to a specific device, it seems it could work, although not sure if it really is worth it. On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 10:36 AM, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com wrote: On 7 February 2012 15:10, Erik Friesen e...@aercon.net wrote: I'll have to think this over a bit. It is one thing to write a driver when you have complete docs, yet another when you have to search so many places for all the information. Well, the docs do exist, but don't seem to be linked to the PDF or HTML manuals. man hm2_bspi_setup_chan man hm2_bspi_write_chan man hm2_tram_add_bspi_frame man hm2_allocate_bspi_tram man hm2_bspi_set_read_funtion man hm2_bspi_set_write_function These also might only work in the master development branch. It is pretty experimental at the moment. (There is a UART version of the same thing which is even more experimental) -- atp The idea that there is no such thing as objective truth is, quite simply, wrong. -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Control board
I have the master, as of a couple weeks ago, but I don't see any of the hm2 stuff. On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 5:58 PM, Erik Friesen e...@aercon.net wrote: I have also been mulling over the ft232h. I asked ftdi, but never received a reply, about the latency. I assume it is at least 125 usec, but that depends how that everything is managed. If the usb host stack could be hacked to give extra care to a specific device, it seems it could work, although not sure if it really is worth it. On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 10:36 AM, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com wrote: On 7 February 2012 15:10, Erik Friesen e...@aercon.net wrote: I'll have to think this over a bit. It is one thing to write a driver when you have complete docs, yet another when you have to search so many places for all the information. Well, the docs do exist, but don't seem to be linked to the PDF or HTML manuals. man hm2_bspi_setup_chan man hm2_bspi_write_chan man hm2_tram_add_bspi_frame man hm2_allocate_bspi_tram man hm2_bspi_set_read_funtion man hm2_bspi_set_write_function These also might only work in the master development branch. It is pretty experimental at the moment. (There is a UART version of the same thing which is even more experimental) -- atp The idea that there is no such thing as objective truth is, quite simply, wrong. -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Control board
Jon Elson's Universal Stepper Controller will take care of the encoders for you: http://pico-systems.com/univstep.html. Many devices including the very inexpensive Teensy board can manage the HID. From: Erik Friesen e...@aercon.net To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Monday, February 6, 2012 6:32 AM Subject: [Emc-users] Control board I am doing a bit of 3 axis cnc routing on pvc. I would like to set it and forget it while it runs. I have been thinking about building, or buying if available, something down this line. Parallel breakout for stepper drive. Microchip pic32 or similar to monitor incoming steps Encoders on steppers to compare against steps. Pic set up as usb HID device, with misc IO for jogging, etc. Amperage monitoring on 110 out relays, controlled with HID or aux parport io. I would set up the amperage and stepper monitors on the control board to flip a bit if things get out of whack, which would be netted to the machine-on. Is there something out there that fits the bill already? -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Control board
I have been looking pretty close at the pico systems board, however, as of yet I am not clear how to integrate spindle amps monitoring with it. I also want to monitor vaccum for a holddown system. On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 9:02 AM, Greg Bernard yankeelena2...@yahoo.comwrote: Jon Elson's Universal Stepper Controller will take care of the encoders for you: http://pico-systems.com/univstep.html. Many devices including the very inexpensive Teensy board can manage the HID. From: Erik Friesen e...@aercon.net To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Monday, February 6, 2012 6:32 AM Subject: [Emc-users] Control board I am doing a bit of 3 axis cnc routing on pvc. I would like to set it and forget it while it runs. I have been thinking about building, or buying if available, something down this line. Parallel breakout for stepper drive. Microchip pic32 or similar to monitor incoming steps Encoders on steppers to compare against steps. Pic set up as usb HID device, with misc IO for jogging, etc. Amperage monitoring on 110 out relays, controlled with HID or aux parport io. I would set up the amperage and stepper monitors on the control board to flip a bit if things get out of whack, which would be netted to the machine-on. Is there something out there that fits the bill already? -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Control board
Erik Friesen wrote: I have been looking pretty close at the pico systems board, however, as of yet I am not clear how to integrate spindle amps monitoring with it. I also want to monitor vaccum for a holddown system. You just want an overcurrent limit, or you want an analog measurement available to LinuxCNC? The first should be fairly easy, assuming you have some kind of current sensor. The second is not easy, I just didn't put in a provision for analog inputs. If low-resolution is good enough, you could hook up an 8-bit ADC chip to 8 digital inputs and use the weighted-sum HAL component to turn that back into a value. Jon -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Control board
On Mon, 2012-02-06 at 07:32 -0500, Erik Friesen wrote: I am doing a bit of 3 axis cnc routing on pvc. I would like to set it and forget it while it runs. I have been thinking about building, or buying if available, something down this line. Parallel breakout for stepper drive. Microchip pic32 or similar to monitor incoming steps Encoders on steppers to compare against steps. Pic set up as usb HID device, with misc IO for jogging, etc. Amperage monitoring on 110 out relays, controlled with HID or aux parport io. I would set up the amperage and stepper monitors on the control board to flip a bit if things get out of whack, which would be netted to the machine-on. If you are using the parallel port to generate step/dir signals, just adding another parallel port, set up as input, should be able to handle encoders just fine. Currently, the only practical real-time interfaces are the parallel port and PCI, so in my opinion, encoder data should go through one of them. Off-loading the encoder counting function to a microprocessor is reinventing the wheel since Linuxcnc already has this and more built in. I think the tricky bit is in getting analog data into Linuxcnc. Analog is not so hard because a fast hardware FPGA signal generator can produce an analog like signal with PWM or PDM. For analog to digital remotes, I tend to think that PCI or the parallel port should be used with a Modbus or SPI converter. There are SPI sensors available: http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/EMC2/serial_adc/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/EMC2/serial_dac/ Modbus is becoming more mature for controlling VFD's with LinuxCNC: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?VFD_Modbus Arduino's, PIC's and AVR's could be used to support remote sensors: http://axis.unpy.net/01198594294 http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?AVR (see bottom for Modbus) http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ModIO I've been working with using an AVR with the parallel port, which would have the advantage of being real-time, but would need to be fairly local to the LinuxCNC PC. I'm thinking of having the AVR convert to Modbus and/or SPI for the remote units. Some Mesa products have SPI capability: http://www.mesanet.com/pdf/parallel/5i25man.pdf It looks like the 5i25 might have everything you need, but there are so many ways to peel a banana. -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html California, USA -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Control board
I don't care about an analog measurement, I want the system to pause or park when amps are outside of a set range. How would you do the first scenario? On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:14 PM, Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com wrote: Erik Friesen wrote: I have been looking pretty close at the pico systems board, however, as of yet I am not clear how to integrate spindle amps monitoring with it. I also want to monitor vaccum for a holddown system. You just want an overcurrent limit, or you want an analog measurement available to LinuxCNC? The first should be fairly easy, assuming you have some kind of current sensor. The second is not easy, I just didn't put in a provision for analog inputs. If low-resolution is good enough, you could hook up an 8-bit ADC chip to 8 digital inputs and use the weighted-sum HAL component to turn that back into a value. Jon -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Control board
I am not so sure about the parallel port and encoder idea though, the encoders I see are up to 1000 per rev, that requires a pretty fast base period to handle that, not? 2us ? I also am not very clear on emc2 capability to manage analog inputs, it seems easier to offload the deciding to an external mcu of some sort. Also, how would emc2 handle encoders with steppers? On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:23 PM, Erik Friesen e...@aercon.net wrote: I don't care about an analog measurement, I want the system to pause or park when amps are outside of a set range. How would you do the first scenario? On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:14 PM, Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com wrote: Erik Friesen wrote: I have been looking pretty close at the pico systems board, however, as of yet I am not clear how to integrate spindle amps monitoring with it. I also want to monitor vaccum for a holddown system. You just want an overcurrent limit, or you want an analog measurement available to LinuxCNC? The first should be fairly easy, assuming you have some kind of current sensor. The second is not easy, I just didn't put in a provision for analog inputs. If low-resolution is good enough, you could hook up an 8-bit ADC chip to 8 digital inputs and use the weighted-sum HAL component to turn that back into a value. Jon -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Control board
On Mon, 6 Feb 2012, Erik Friesen wrote: Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 12:23:00 -0500 From: Erik Friesen e...@aercon.net Reply-To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Control board I don't care about an analog measurement, I want the system to pause or park when amps are outside of a set range. How would you do the first scenario? Measuring spindle current can be rather tricky as you normally need an isolated current sensor (with high voltage isolation and very high common mode noise immunity since the current will usually be sensed at a point with 180-360V PWM) Hall effect sensors are a common way to do this. The other way is a floating current sense resistor (but this normally requires a isolated floating power supply) For a small spindle where 1V drop across a current sense resistor is acceptable, a simple current sense resistor with an AC OPTO-isolator may be enough since the 1V is enough to activate the OPTOS LED. This is very simple but will be fairly inaccurate (LED turn on voltage will vary with temperature) and quickly ends up with too much power dissipation: 1A = 1W but 5A = 25W Also depending on the spindle drive electronics, you may not need to measure/sense any current since the drive does this itself. Running a servo spindle drive in torque mode allows LinuxCNC to monitor the spindle load directly (its just the PIDs output) On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:14 PM, Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com wrote: Erik Friesen wrote: I have been looking pretty close at the pico systems board, however, as of yet I am not clear how to integrate spindle amps monitoring with it. I also want to monitor vaccum for a holddown system. You just want an overcurrent limit, or you want an analog measurement available to LinuxCNC? The first should be fairly easy, assuming you have some kind of current sensor. The second is not easy, I just didn't put in a provision for analog inputs. If low-resolution is good enough, you could hook up an 8-bit ADC chip to 8 digital inputs and use the weighted-sum HAL component to turn that back into a value. Jon -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your ()_() signature to help him gain world domination. -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] Control board
On 6 February 2012 16:09, Erik Friesen e...@aercon.net wrote: I have been looking pretty close at the pico systems board, however, as of yet I am not clear how to integrate spindle amps monitoring with it. I also want to monitor vaccum for a holddown system. On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 9:02 AM, Greg Bernard yankeelena2...@yahoo.com wrote: Jon Elson's Universal Stepper Controller will take care of the encoders for you: http://pico-systems.com/univstep.html. Many devices including the very inexpensive Teensy board can manage the HID. Ther are some very nice vacuum gauges on RS components. They are differential so you can apply pressure or vacuum. 0-5V linear output. Low cost too. You could make a simple PWM driver out of it, to read the pulse width with EMC, or use comparators to measure a threshold. If that's too much PT you might be able to jury rig a simple temperature controller to read the analog and switch a relay output. Look up RS part; 719-1093 Regards Roland From: Erik Friesen e...@aercon.net To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Monday, February 6, 2012 6:32 AM Subject: [Emc-users] Control board I am doing a bit of 3 axis cnc routing on pvc. I would like to set it and forget it while it runs. I have been thinking about building, or buying if available, something down this line. Parallel breakout for stepper drive. Microchip pic32 or similar to monitor incoming steps Encoders on steppers to compare against steps. Pic set up as usb HID device, with misc IO for jogging, etc. Amperage monitoring on 110 out relays, controlled with HID or aux parport io. I would set up the amperage and stepper monitors on the control board to flip a bit if things get out of whack, which would be netted to the machine-on. Is there something out there that fits the bill already? -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Control board
On Mon, 2012-02-06 at 12:29 -0500, Erik Friesen wrote: I am not so sure about the parallel port and encoder idea though, the encoders I see are up to 1000 per rev, that requires a pretty fast base period to handle that, not? 2us ? In reference to my reply, I suggested that using the parallel port for encoders, but only if the encoder pulse rate is similar to the step rate. An FPGA PCI or parallel port board would be needed for decent encoder rates. I also am not very clear on emc2 capability to manage analog inputs, it seems easier to offload the deciding to an external mcu of some sort. Also, how would emc2 handle encoders with steppers? In the normal stepper configuration file, the position command and the position feedback are software shorted together. core_stepper.hal ~~~ ... 25 # connect position feedback from step generators 26 # to motion module 27 net Xpos-fb stepgen.0.position-fb = axis.0.motor-pos-fb 28 net Ypos-fb stepgen.1.position-fb = axis.1.motor-pos-fb 29 net Zpos-fb stepgen.2.position-fb = axis.2.motor-pos-fb ... ~~~ This is because when a step is sent out, it is assumed that the step completes properly, and besides, a normal stepper system has no way of providing feedback. I haven't worked on a stepper system with encoders, but I think one replaces the above stepgen feedback with the encoder output. This link indicates there is are example files somewhere?: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Steppers_With_Encoders For the cost, this may be a good analog trip indicator: http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9147 The biggest problem might be in conditioning the analog signal to a 0 - 5 Volt range. One could use the USB connection as is, or change the program to just send out a one bit or watchdog signal. Being a microprocessor, the trip conditions could be quite sophisticated. -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html California, USA -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Control board
The mesa card looks interesting to me. The catch is, how is one going to go about doing spi and pulling the data into emc2? I assume everything would have to be bit banged, and is not taken care of in the fpga. It also says it has quadrature encoder interface, but once again, how is this handled? If this was handled with a accessible register, that would work pretty well. On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Kirk Wallace kwall...@wallacecompany.comwrote: On Mon, 2012-02-06 at 12:29 -0500, Erik Friesen wrote: I am not so sure about the parallel port and encoder idea though, the encoders I see are up to 1000 per rev, that requires a pretty fast base period to handle that, not? 2us ? In reference to my reply, I suggested that using the parallel port for encoders, but only if the encoder pulse rate is similar to the step rate. An FPGA PCI or parallel port board would be needed for decent encoder rates. I also am not very clear on emc2 capability to manage analog inputs, it seems easier to offload the deciding to an external mcu of some sort. Also, how would emc2 handle encoders with steppers? In the normal stepper configuration file, the position command and the position feedback are software shorted together. core_stepper.hal ~~~ ... 25 # connect position feedback from step generators 26 # to motion module 27 net Xpos-fb stepgen.0.position-fb = axis.0.motor-pos-fb 28 net Ypos-fb stepgen.1.position-fb = axis.1.motor-pos-fb 29 net Zpos-fb stepgen.2.position-fb = axis.2.motor-pos-fb ... ~~~ This is because when a step is sent out, it is assumed that the step completes properly, and besides, a normal stepper system has no way of providing feedback. I haven't worked on a stepper system with encoders, but I think one replaces the above stepgen feedback with the encoder output. This link indicates there is are example files somewhere?: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Steppers_With_Encoders For the cost, this may be a good analog trip indicator: http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9147 The biggest problem might be in conditioning the analog signal to a 0 - 5 Volt range. One could use the USB connection as is, or change the program to just send out a one bit or watchdog signal. Being a microprocessor, the trip conditions could be quite sophisticated. -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html California, USA -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Control board
On Mon, 6 Feb 2012, Erik Friesen wrote: Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 17:57:10 -0500 From: Erik Friesen e...@aercon.net Reply-To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Control board The mesa card looks interesting to me. The catch is, how is one going to go about doing spi and pulling the data into emc2? There is FPGA firmware support for SPI with up 16 channels and up to 32 bits of data/channel and clocklow/2 = 16.666 or ~25 MHz) There is also HostMot2 driver support for the SPI firmware (in LinuxCNC 2.5 or ) I assume everything would have to be bit banged, and is not taken care of in the fpga. It also says it has quadrature encoder interface, but once again, how is this handled? If this was handled with a accessible register, that would work pretty well. Its fully supported by the HostMot2 driver. if you have a running LinuxCNC system type: man hostmot2 for Mesa HostMot2 driver/firmware capabilities on your system On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Kirk Wallace kwall...@wallacecompany.comwrote: On Mon, 2012-02-06 at 12:29 -0500, Erik Friesen wrote: I am not so sure about the parallel port and encoder idea though, the encoders I see are up to 1000 per rev, that requires a pretty fast base period to handle that, not? 2us ? In reference to my reply, I suggested that using the parallel port for encoders, but only if the encoder pulse rate is similar to the step rate. An FPGA PCI or parallel port board would be needed for decent encoder rates. I also am not very clear on emc2 capability to manage analog inputs, it seems easier to offload the deciding to an external mcu of some sort. Also, how would emc2 handle encoders with steppers? In the normal stepper configuration file, the position command and the position feedback are software shorted together. core_stepper.hal ~~~ ... 25 # connect position feedback from step generators 26 # to motion module 27 net Xpos-fb stepgen.0.position-fb = axis.0.motor-pos-fb 28 net Ypos-fb stepgen.1.position-fb = axis.1.motor-pos-fb 29 net Zpos-fb stepgen.2.position-fb = axis.2.motor-pos-fb ... ~~~ This is because when a step is sent out, it is assumed that the step completes properly, and besides, a normal stepper system has no way of providing feedback. I haven't worked on a stepper system with encoders, but I think one replaces the above stepgen feedback with the encoder output. This link indicates there is are example files somewhere?: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Steppers_With_Encoders For the cost, this may be a good analog trip indicator: http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9147 The biggest problem might be in conditioning the analog signal to a 0 - 5 Volt range. One could use the USB connection as is, or change the program to just send out a one bit or watchdog signal. Being a microprocessor, the trip conditions could be quite sophisticated. -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html California, USA -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your ()_() signature to help him gain world domination. -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Control board
I feel like I'm fumbling a bit for information on the mesa cards. Is the firmware open source? How does one go about configuring the card? I have a bit of experience with embedded electronics, but working with this is a bit new to me. How configurable is the spi? On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Peter C. Wallace p...@mesanet.com wrote: On Mon, 6 Feb 2012, Erik Friesen wrote: Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 17:57:10 -0500 From: Erik Friesen e...@aercon.net Reply-To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Control board The mesa card looks interesting to me. The catch is, how is one going to go about doing spi and pulling the data into emc2? There is FPGA firmware support for SPI with up 16 channels and up to 32 bits of data/channel and clocklow/2 = 16.666 or ~25 MHz) There is also HostMot2 driver support for the SPI firmware (in LinuxCNC 2.5 or ) I assume everything would have to be bit banged, and is not taken care of in the fpga. It also says it has quadrature encoder interface, but once again, how is this handled? If this was handled with a accessible register, that would work pretty well. Its fully supported by the HostMot2 driver. if you have a running LinuxCNC system type: man hostmot2 for Mesa HostMot2 driver/firmware capabilities on your system On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Kirk Wallace kwall...@wallacecompany.comwrote: On Mon, 2012-02-06 at 12:29 -0500, Erik Friesen wrote: I am not so sure about the parallel port and encoder idea though, the encoders I see are up to 1000 per rev, that requires a pretty fast base period to handle that, not? 2us ? In reference to my reply, I suggested that using the parallel port for encoders, but only if the encoder pulse rate is similar to the step rate. An FPGA PCI or parallel port board would be needed for decent encoder rates. I also am not very clear on emc2 capability to manage analog inputs, it seems easier to offload the deciding to an external mcu of some sort. Also, how would emc2 handle encoders with steppers? In the normal stepper configuration file, the position command and the position feedback are software shorted together. core_stepper.hal ~~~ ... 25 # connect position feedback from step generators 26 # to motion module 27 net Xpos-fb stepgen.0.position-fb = axis.0.motor-pos-fb 28 net Ypos-fb stepgen.1.position-fb = axis.1.motor-pos-fb 29 net Zpos-fb stepgen.2.position-fb = axis.2.motor-pos-fb ... ~~~ This is because when a step is sent out, it is assumed that the step completes properly, and besides, a normal stepper system has no way of providing feedback. I haven't worked on a stepper system with encoders, but I think one replaces the above stepgen feedback with the encoder output. This link indicates there is are example files somewhere?: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Steppers_With_Encoders For the cost, this may be a good analog trip indicator: http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9147 The biggest problem might be in conditioning the analog signal to a 0 - 5 Volt range. One could use the USB connection as is, or change the program to just send out a one bit or watchdog signal. Being a microprocessor, the trip conditions could be quite sophisticated. -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html California, USA -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your ()_() signature to help him gain world domination. -- Try before you
Re: [Emc-users] Control board
On Mon, 6 Feb 2012, Erik Friesen wrote: Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 18:34:37 -0500 From: Erik Friesen e...@aercon.net Reply-To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Control board I feel like I'm fumbling a bit for information on the mesa cards. Is the firmware open source? Yes How does one go about configuring the card? For bus configurable cards (Most), the configuration bit file is specified in LinuxCNCs .ini file, something like loadrt hm2_pci config=firmware=hm2/5i20/TPEN6_6.BIT num_3pwmgens=2 For the 5I25/6I25 the cards EEPROM needs to be preconfigured with the desired firmware I have a bit of experience with embedded electronics, but working with this is a bit new to me. How configurable is the spi? its pretty configurable. The current driver code supports the BSPI module which supports most SPI features (clock rates from a few KHz to 16 or 25 MHz, data sizes from 1 to 32 bits, normal CLKPOL and CLKPHA options) On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Peter C. Wallace p...@mesanet.com wrote: On Mon, 6 Feb 2012, Erik Friesen wrote: Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 17:57:10 -0500 From: Erik Friesen e...@aercon.net Reply-To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Control board The mesa card looks interesting to me. The catch is, how is one going to go about doing spi and pulling the data into emc2? There is FPGA firmware support for SPI with up 16 channels and up to 32 bits of data/channel and clocklow/2 = 16.666 or ~25 MHz) There is also HostMot2 driver support for the SPI firmware (in LinuxCNC 2.5 or ) I assume everything would have to be bit banged, and is not taken care of in the fpga. It also says it has quadrature encoder interface, but once again, how is this handled? If this was handled with a accessible register, that would work pretty well. Its fully supported by the HostMot2 driver. if you have a running LinuxCNC system type: man hostmot2 for Mesa HostMot2 driver/firmware capabilities on your system On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Kirk Wallace kwall...@wallacecompany.comwrote: On Mon, 2012-02-06 at 12:29 -0500, Erik Friesen wrote: I am not so sure about the parallel port and encoder idea though, the encoders I see are up to 1000 per rev, that requires a pretty fast base period to handle that, not? 2us ? In reference to my reply, I suggested that using the parallel port for encoders, but only if the encoder pulse rate is similar to the step rate. An FPGA PCI or parallel port board would be needed for decent encoder rates. I also am not very clear on emc2 capability to manage analog inputs, it seems easier to offload the deciding to an external mcu of some sort. Also, how would emc2 handle encoders with steppers? In the normal stepper configuration file, the position command and the position feedback are software shorted together. core_stepper.hal ~~~ ... 25 # connect position feedback from step generators 26 # to motion module 27 net Xpos-fb stepgen.0.position-fb = axis.0.motor-pos-fb 28 net Ypos-fb stepgen.1.position-fb = axis.1.motor-pos-fb 29 net Zpos-fb stepgen.2.position-fb = axis.2.motor-pos-fb ... ~~~ This is because when a step is sent out, it is assumed that the step completes properly, and besides, a normal stepper system has no way of providing feedback. I haven't worked on a stepper system with encoders, but I think one replaces the above stepgen feedback with the encoder output. This link indicates there is are example files somewhere?: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Steppers_With_Encoders For the cost, this may be a good analog trip indicator: http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9147 The biggest problem might be in conditioning the analog signal to a 0 - 5 Volt range. One could use the USB connection as is, or change the program to just send out a one bit or watchdog signal. Being a microprocessor, the trip conditions could be quite sophisticated. -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html California, USA -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Control board
Erik Friesen wrote: I don't care about an analog measurement, I want the system to pause or park when amps are outside of a set range. How would you do the first scenario? Does your spindle drive provide an overcurrent signal? If it is a contact that opens on fault, you can just wire it in series with the E-stop chain. Or, to be a little more gentle, you could connect it to another digital input and connect that in HAL to the feed-hold input. That might burn your workpiece unless the overcurrent condition also shuts down the spindle. HAL allows you to do a wide range of special things with just a couple commands in the configs files. A vacuum switch could also be rigged in the same way. Jon -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Control board
Erik Friesen wrote: I am not so sure about the parallel port and encoder idea though, the encoders I see are up to 1000 per rev, that requires a pretty fast base period to handle that, not? 2us ? It all depends on the RPM. 1000 count/rev encoders would be fine with software conting at low speeds, but would miss counts at higher speeds. That's why most systems use hardware encoder counting. Also, how would emc2 handle encoders with steppers? Using the Pico Systems Universal Stepper Controller, it works very easily. You flip a switch on the board to make it count the encoder instead of the step pulses it issues. But, of course, it can't help the stepper driver when the motor stalls. The condition will be detected, but it can't recover. However, position won't be lost, so you can just reset from the following error message and continue. Jon -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
