Re: [Emc-users] Sewing Machine Stiffness

[andy pugh]

On Fri, 26 May 2023 at 01:51, BRIAN GLACKIN  wrote:

> More modern cements originate from work by Aspdin (sp) from Leeds

That appears to be the correct spelling:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland_cement

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Sewing Machine Stiffness

[BRIAN GLACKIN]

Very true

For the most part the knowledge was misplaced with the fall of said empire.

For over a millennia after, lime mortars were the main “cement” but was not
“hydraulic” (set under water) like the original Roman cement.  Very
important when building harbors.

More modern cements originate from work by Aspdin (sp) from Leeds in the
early 1800s.

Advances in kiln technology (rotary) in the end of the 1800s and early
1900’s is what led to wider acceptance.

The ability to manufacture cement is heavily dependent on the development
of machine tools to produce the equipment needed.

Full circle

On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 6:41 PM Scott Harwell via Emc-users <
emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

>  Practical concrete was created by the Romans and in use from around
> 600BCE.
>
> Scott
>
>
> On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 05:37:46 PM CDT, BRIAN GLACKIN <
> glackin.br...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Thanks Andy
>
> The articles I knew of were of much more recent vintage.
>
> This article confirms the design was originally for “shell” lathes where
> they could manufacture a lathe in place and have it operational in 30ish
> days.  I was surprised it was WW1 as the cement technology at the time was
> rapidly evolving.
>
> By
>
> On Mon, May 22, 2023 at 4:28 AM andy pugh  wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 21 May 2023 at 23:57, BRIAN GLACKIN 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > During ww2 they made lathes bodies out of concrete with imbedded steel
> > > parts that were jigged in form or line bored for the spindle and tail
> > > stock.
> >
> > More info here:
> >
> >
> https://flowxrgdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/new-method-of-building-lathes.pdf
> >
> > (and it was actually WW1, the article is from1916)
> >
> > --
> > atp
> > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > lunatics."
> > — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Sewing Machine Stiffness

[Scott Harwell via Emc-users]

 Practical concrete was created by the Romans and in use from around 600BCE. 

Scott


On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 05:37:46 PM CDT, BRIAN GLACKIN 
 wrote:  
 
 Thanks Andy

The articles I knew of were of much more recent vintage.

This article confirms the design was originally for “shell” lathes where
they could manufacture a lathe in place and have it operational in 30ish
days.  I was surprised it was WW1 as the cement technology at the time was
rapidly evolving.

By

On Mon, May 22, 2023 at 4:28 AM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Sun, 21 May 2023 at 23:57, BRIAN GLACKIN 
> wrote:
>
> > During ww2 they made lathes bodies out of concrete with imbedded steel
> > parts that were jigged in form or line bored for the spindle and tail
> > stock.
>
> More info here:
>
> https://flowxrgdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/new-method-of-building-lathes.pdf
>
> (and it was actually WW1, the article is from1916)
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Sewing Machine Stiffness

[gene heskett]

On 5/22/23 18:36, BRIAN GLACKIN wrote:

Thanks Andy

The articles I knew of were of much more recent vintage.

This article confirms the design was originally for “shell” lathes where
they could manufacture a lathe in place and have it operational in 30ish
days.   I was surprised it was WW1 as the cement technology at the time was
rapidly evolving.

By

On Mon, May 22, 2023 at 4:28 AM andy pugh  wrote:


On Sun, 21 May 2023 at 23:57, BRIAN GLACKIN 
wrote:


During ww2 they made lathes bodies out of concrete with imbedded steel
parts that were jigged in form or line bored for the spindle and tail
stock.


More info here:

https://flowxrgdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/new-method-of-building-lathes.pdf

(and it was actually WW1, the article is from1916)


Andy; We've a discussion on the new sheldon list about long term 
stability of machined castings, brought on by my more or less annual 
expounding on backgear meshing & how to check/fix it.


I have trouble believing that most of the Sheldon's were shipped with 
the backgear engagement set at several tons which will generally flex 
the teeth of the smallest gear, leading to microcracks which eventually 
break the tooth off the gear at the root of the tooth form. Which is 
exactly the type of breakage seen in these now aged machines.


This could be explained by a casting shrinkage of maybe 20 thou over the 
last 80 years since the head castings were machined. Bringing the 
spindle bearing hole, and the hole for the eccentric shaft that is the 
backgear shifter shaft closer together. This would then result in the 
over-engagement of the backgears, giving a heavy rumble noise and 
vibration we've observed in these old machines when the backgear is 
engaged. So much so that the top of the gear tooth, which should still 
have its original machining marks, is worn smooth and even rounded like 
mine are now.  So badly worn that the hall effect encoder reading them 
for spindle speed and direction has a hard time with the quadrature 
timing variations that rounding causes.  That corner wear is seen as a 
variable width tooth.


Has such a long term after machining shrinkage study ever been done and 
written up?


Thanks.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] Sewing Machine Stiffness

[Thomas J Powderly]

Thx to all responses

Andy the pdf was very interesting.

bearings line jigged and clearances filled wit some babbet like material 
to assure allignment


hmmm old school additive construction vs expected line boring

i read it looking for how it was about casting stiffenss, but thanks for 
an interesting read from my hometown


tomp

On 5/22/23 15:20, andy pugh wrote:

On Sun, 21 May 2023 at 23:57, BRIAN GLACKIN  wrote:


During ww2 they made lathes bodies out of concrete with imbedded steel
parts that were jigged in form or line bored for the spindle and tail
stock.

More info here:
https://flowxrgdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/new-method-of-building-lathes.pdf

(and it was actually WW1, the article is from1916)




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Re: [Emc-users] Sewing Machine Stiffness

[BRIAN GLACKIN]

Thanks Andy

The articles I knew of were of much more recent vintage.

This article confirms the design was originally for “shell” lathes where
they could manufacture a lathe in place and have it operational in 30ish
days.   I was surprised it was WW1 as the cement technology at the time was
rapidly evolving.

By

On Mon, May 22, 2023 at 4:28 AM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Sun, 21 May 2023 at 23:57, BRIAN GLACKIN 
> wrote:
>
> > During ww2 they made lathes bodies out of concrete with imbedded steel
> > parts that were jigged in form or line bored for the spindle and tail
> > stock.
>
> More info here:
>
> https://flowxrgdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/new-method-of-building-lathes.pdf
>
> (and it was actually WW1, the article is from1916)
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Sewing Machine Stiffness

[andy pugh]

On Sun, 21 May 2023 at 23:57, BRIAN GLACKIN  wrote:

> During ww2 they made lathes bodies out of concrete with imbedded steel
> parts that were jigged in form or line bored for the spindle and tail
> stock.

More info here:
https://flowxrgdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/new-method-of-building-lathes.pdf

(and it was actually WW1, the article is from1916)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Sewing Machine Stiffness

[John Dammeyer]

One of the continuing discussions on the Gingery "Make your own shop from 
scrap" forums were the lightness of aluminum castings and how that made them 
more susceptible to vibration.  That's the biggest fault in my Gingery Lathe.  
I did cut some steel stock intending to create a stronger bed frame (filled 
with concrete) but then the South Bend Heavy 10L arrived and the Gingery is 
rarely used.  

My feelings using epoxy and fibreglass is that it will suffer the same issues.  
OTOH, epoxy with granite filler has been used.  But still in frames that by 
themselves are already strong.  Perhaps a mix of glass fibre and granite would 
be the best.
John


-Original Message-
From: BRIAN GLACKIN [mailto:glackin.br...@gmail.com] 
Sent: May 21, 2023 3:54 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Sewing Machine Stiffness

Epoxy is a bonding agent
Fiber (glass or otherwise) add cross linking in the resulting matrix.

Thes two Used alone, the resulting composite will be weak.

You need sized aggregate to make a much more rigid and robust structure.
The epoxy is then strongest bonding all these parts together

Sand and fines to fill the spaces between larger aggregate.   The top size
of the aggregate will depend on the thinnest portion of the structure but
generally 13-19 mm max.

During ww2 they made lathes bodies out of concrete with imbedded steel
parts that were jigged in form or line bored for the spindle and tail
stock.

https://www.engineeringforchange.org/news/the-concrete-lathe-world-war-i-technology-meets-21st-century-design/amp/


Brian
A guy that crushes rock for a living

On Sun, May 21, 2023 at 5:41 AM gene heskett  wrote:

> On 5/21/23 05:00, Nicklas SB Karlsson wrote:
> > l�r 2023-05-20 klockan 23:28 +0700 skrev Thomas J Powderly:
> >>
> >> I saw an overarm router recently
> >>
> >> and wondered if a sewing machine frame was stiff.
> >>
> >> Compared to a desktop gantry mill.
> > Gantry ought to be more stiff.
> >
> >
> That depends on the gantry, my 6040's x rods could be stiffer than they
> are, so light cuts are the order for smooth finishes. as is a mist
> coolant directed at the tool.
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>   soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>   - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/>
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Sewing Machine Stiffness

[BRIAN GLACKIN]

Epoxy is a bonding agent
Fiber (glass or otherwise) add cross linking in the resulting matrix.

Thes two Used alone, the resulting composite will be weak.

You need sized aggregate to make a much more rigid and robust structure.
The epoxy is then strongest bonding all these parts together

Sand and fines to fill the spaces between larger aggregate.   The top size
of the aggregate will depend on the thinnest portion of the structure but
generally 13-19 mm max.

During ww2 they made lathes bodies out of concrete with imbedded steel
parts that were jigged in form or line bored for the spindle and tail
stock.

https://www.engineeringforchange.org/news/the-concrete-lathe-world-war-i-technology-meets-21st-century-design/amp/


Brian
A guy that crushes rock for a living

On Sun, May 21, 2023 at 5:41 AM gene heskett  wrote:

> On 5/21/23 05:00, Nicklas SB Karlsson wrote:
> > lör 2023-05-20 klockan 23:28 +0700 skrev Thomas J Powderly:
> >>
> >> I saw an overarm router recently
> >>
> >> and wondered if a sewing machine frame was stiff.
> >>
> >> Compared to a desktop gantry mill.
> > Gantry ought to be more stiff.
> >
> >
> That depends on the gantry, my 6040's x rods could be stiffer than they
> are, so light cuts are the order for smooth finishes. as is a mist
> coolant directed at the tool.
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>   soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>   - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page 
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Emc-users] Sewing Machine Stiffness

[gene heskett]

On 5/21/23 05:00, Nicklas SB Karlsson wrote:

lör 2023-05-20 klockan 23:28 +0700 skrev Thomas J Powderly:


I saw an overarm router recently

and wondered if a sewing machine frame was stiff.

Compared to a desktop gantry mill.

Gantry ought to be more stiff.


That depends on the gantry, my 6040's x rods could be stiffer than they 
are, so light cuts are the order for smooth finishes. as is a mist 
coolant directed at the tool.



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Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] Sewing Machine Stiffness

[gene heskett]

On 5/21/23 02:56, marcus.bow...@visible.eclipse.co.uk wrote:

On 2023-05-21 03:43, Chris Albertson wrote:


Even 3D-printed PLA plastic can be strong enough.  I have a 3D-printed
CNC conversion of a harbor freight milling machine.  Normally they use
metal parts for the motor mounts and such but PLA can be just as rigid
if you make the parts thicker.



Yes; I have printed parts for several small machines for manually 
cutting tube, and I have printed and used some large fixtures which hold 
parts for milling, all quite successful. The key lies in the design, 
taking account of the properties of the printed material. So I guess its 
the same with epoxy/fibre. I have used glassfibre and epoxy for repairs, 
but hadn't thought to use it for structural purposes on a new part, so I 
must try that. Thanks for the suggestion.


Marcus

I'm using PETG+CF for parts where it s/b more rigid. Not as strong as 
pure petg, but much more rigid. Its abrasive though, so don't use for 
rubbing parts, bolted seems ok. I have two motor mounts in plain petg, 
seems to be rigid enough.


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Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] Sewing Machine Stiffness

[Nicklas SB Karlsson]

lör 2023-05-20 klockan 23:28 +0700 skrev Thomas J Powderly:
> 
> I saw an overarm router recently
> 
> and wondered if a sewing machine frame was stiff.
> 
> Compared to a desktop gantry mill.
Gantry ought to be more stiff.




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Re: [Emc-users] Sewing Machine Stiffness

[marcus . bowman]

On 2023-05-21 03:43, Chris Albertson wrote:


Even 3D-printed PLA plastic can be strong enough.  I have a 3D-printed
CNC conversion of a harbor freight milling machine.  Normally they use
metal parts for the motor mounts and such but PLA can be just as rigid
if you make the parts thicker.



Yes; I have printed parts for several small machines for manually 
cutting tube, and I have printed and used some large fixtures which hold 
parts for milling, all quite successful. The key lies in the design, 
taking account of the properties of the printed material. So I guess its 
the same with epoxy/fibre. I have used glassfibre and epoxy for repairs, 
but hadn't thought to use it for structural purposes on a new part, so I 
must try that. Thanks for the suggestion.


Marcus


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Re: [Emc-users] Sewing Machine Stiffness

[Chris Albertson]

> On May 20, 2023, at 2:12 PM, marcus.bow...@visible.eclipse.co.uk wrote:
> 
> 
> Interesting idea, which makes a lot of sense.
> So you would end up with a 'solid' epoxy/glass mix. What would its 
> performance be like compared to a heavy dense epoxy/stone mix?


Glass and stone are not much different.   Both make a hard composite.  But the 
shape of the chopped fiber is different from crushed stone.  Fiber is more than 
100:1 length-to-width ratio, even if chopped very short. 

People can argue that cast iron is stiffer.   But the iron is whatever shape 
and size it happens to be, the glass fiber can be custom-made to any size and 
shape up to making your own B2 bomber airplane.   So even if an equal size of 
iron is stronger, make the glass part 2X larger.

Even 3D-printed PLA plastic can be strong enough.  I have a 3D-printed CNC 
conversion of a harbor freight milling machine.  Normally they use metal parts 
for the motor mounts and such but PLA can be just as rigid if you make the 
parts thicker.

If you have access to a foundry then you can make your own custom case iron.

Metal is best if you need the part to fit in a small space but plastic can be 
as strong if you have the space for a larger part.   For example you might use 
module 0.5 steel gears but these are expensive to make. You could 3D print 
module 2.0 gears that are as strong but you will have a very different-looking 
machine

On the other hand, even a cheap sewing machine frame can be strong enough if 
you limit the cutting speed the keep the forces down.  



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Re: [Emc-users] Sewing Machine Stiffness

[Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users]

Epoxy wouldn't be a good material for a long, unsupported beam like that, even 
if filled with glass fiber. A cast iron sewing machine arm isn't going to 
eventually sag under its own weight, though it may not be shaped to withstand 
horizontal bending and longitudinal twisting forces without some deflection. 
Fill it up with epoxy and chopped glass and it should become stiff enough for 
hanging a wood routing spindle on the free end.

This guy had an epoxy slab cured for 18 months yet in the sun it still easily 
bent. https://youtu.be/hCmE2yY8Kvk?t=619

On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 01:14:47 PM MDT, Chris Albertson 
 wrote: 

If you are going to the trouble of filling a frame with epoxy then two things…

1) Why bother with the frame, just print a plastic mold and fill that. with 
epoxy.  Then it will be the exact size and shape you need.

2) Don’t use epoxy as it is not very stiff,  Mix the epoxy with glass fiber 
such that the fiber-to-epoxy ratio is as high as you can possibly make it.  You 
don’t need expensive carbon fiber as you don’t care about weight.  You want as 
much glass in the mix as possible.  The usual way is to use woven glass, wet it 
with epoxy then use pressure from clamps or a vacuum pump to compress the part 
and push out as much epoxy as possible.  But you can also mix chopped fiber 
with the liquid resin and make a paste. 

This is actually very low-tech and can be done with simple hand tools like 
paintbrushes and scissors.

The problem is the same as with any new design, you have to make some 
prototypes and measure them and likey redesign them a few times.  This is why 
people usually copy existing proven designs.


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Re: [Emc-users] Sewing Machine Stiffness

[marcus . bowman]

On 2023-05-20 20:12, Chris Albertson wrote:
If you are going to the trouble of filling a frame with epoxy then two 
things…


1) Why bother with the frame, just print a plastic mold and fill that.
with epoxy.   Then it will be the exact size and shape you need.



Interesting idea, which makes a lot of sense.
So you would end up with a 'solid' epoxy/glass mix. What would its 
performance be like compared to a heavy dense epoxy/stone mix?


Marcus




2) Don’t use epoxy as it is not very stiff,  Mix the epoxy with glass
fiber such that the fiber-to-epoxy ratio is as high as you can
possibly make it.   You don’t need expensive carbon fiber as you don’t
care about weight.   You want as much glass in the mix as possible.
The usual way is to use woven glass, wet it with epoxy then use
pressure from clamps or a vacuum pump to compress the part and push
out as much epoxy as possible.  But you can also mix chopped fiber
with the liquid resin and make a paste.

This is actually very low-tech and can be done with simple hand tools
like paintbrushes and scissors.

The problem is the same as with any new design, you have to make some
prototypes and measure them and likey redesign them a few times.  This
is why people usually copy existing proven designs.




On May 20, 2023, at 11:28 AM, Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users 
 wrote:


You'd need to get a frame casting, set up indicators, then do some 
pushing, twisting, and leaning on it to see how much it moves.


What could stiffen it is filling all its internal space with epoxy. 
The upper casting from one of these

https://china-highly.en.made-in-china.com/product/gSHxMeWyblRA/China-Hl-246-Long-Arm-Compound-Feeding-Super-Heavy-Sewing-Machine.html
could do the job since it bolts on from above it could be mounted over 
any XY base you can build.


Just might be workable for a wood router for sign carving. Z travel 
would be limited to whatever vertical slide you mount, and if you 
space the arm up higher.


I'd expect that the really long ones with arms around 30 inches, would 
be pretty well vibration damped in order to handle high speed sewing 
in heavy materials like canvas. Sewing is mostly a short vertical 
motion. I'd assume the main area of concern for adapting a long arm 
sewing machine to routing would be resistance to bending sideways and 
twisting around the long axis of the arm.




On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 11:00:22 AM MDT, Thomas J Powderly 
 wrote:


I saw an overarm router recently

and wondered if a sewing machine frame was stiff.

Compared to a desktop gantry mill.


I imagined a makita router mounted on the over arm

minimal Z travel ( 150mm at most)


I can find castings for industrial machines pretty cheap in qty 1

What i see are C frames, single casting, with base plate as long as 
over

arm.


Any thoughts?

( I don't have a sewing machine to lean on ;-)


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Re: [Emc-users] Sewing Machine Stiffness

[Chris Albertson]

If you are going to the trouble of filling a frame with epoxy then two things…

1) Why bother with the frame, just print a plastic mold and fill that. with 
epoxy.   Then it will be the exact size and shape you need.

2) Don’t use epoxy as it is not very stiff,  Mix the epoxy with glass fiber 
such that the fiber-to-epoxy ratio is as high as you can possibly make it.   
You don’t need expensive carbon fiber as you don’t care about weight.   You 
want as much glass in the mix as possible.  The usual way is to use woven 
glass, wet it with epoxy then use pressure from clamps or a vacuum pump to 
compress the part and push out as much epoxy as possible.  But you can also mix 
chopped fiber with the liquid resin and make a paste. 

This is actually very low-tech and can be done with simple hand tools like 
paintbrushes and scissors.

The problem is the same as with any new design, you have to make some 
prototypes and measure them and likey redesign them a few times.  This is why 
people usually copy existing proven designs.




> On May 20, 2023, at 11:28 AM, Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> You'd need to get a frame casting, set up indicators, then do some pushing, 
> twisting, and leaning on it to see how much it moves.
> 
> What could stiffen it is filling all its internal space with epoxy. The upper 
> casting from one of these
> https://china-highly.en.made-in-china.com/product/gSHxMeWyblRA/China-Hl-246-Long-Arm-Compound-Feeding-Super-Heavy-Sewing-Machine.html
> could do the job since it bolts on from above it could be mounted over any XY 
> base you can build.
> 
> Just might be workable for a wood router for sign carving. Z travel would be 
> limited to whatever vertical slide you mount, and if you space the arm up 
> higher.
> 
> I'd expect that the really long ones with arms around 30 inches, would be 
> pretty well vibration damped in order to handle high speed sewing in heavy 
> materials like canvas. Sewing is mostly a short vertical motion. I'd assume 
> the main area of concern for adapting a long arm sewing machine to routing 
> would be resistance to bending sideways and twisting around the long axis of 
> the arm.
> 
> 
> 
> On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 11:00:22 AM MDT, Thomas J Powderly 
>  wrote: 
> 
> I saw an overarm router recently
> 
> and wondered if a sewing machine frame was stiff.
> 
> Compared to a desktop gantry mill.
> 
> 
> I imagined a makita router mounted on the over arm
> 
> minimal Z travel ( 150mm at most)
> 
> 
> I can find castings for industrial machines pretty cheap in qty 1
> 
> What i see are C frames, single casting, with base plate as long as over 
> arm.
> 
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> ( I don't have a sewing machine to lean on ;-)
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Sewing Machine Stiffness

[gene heskett]

On 5/20/23 13:39, Chris Albertson wrote:

I think there would be a huge variation.  A cheap $100 consumer sewingmachine 
would not be at strong as an industrial sewing machine that sells for 20 times 
as much.

One problem with many homemade gentry machines is that people us too-thin 
material for the base.If the gantry rails are screwed to a sheet of 
plywood, the entire machine will be as rigid as a sheet of plywood.

I’ve been working on some kitchens lately and visiting granite yards.  They 
typically have cut-off leftovers for not a lot of money.  A slab of stone would 
be much better than a plywood sheet and not expensive if it only has to be 
sewing machine sized.




On May 20, 2023, at 9:28 AM, Thomas J Powderly  wrote:


I saw an overarm router recently

and wondered if a sewing machine frame was stiff.

Compared to a desktop gantry mill.


I imagined a makita router mounted on the over arm

minimal Z travel ( 150mm at most)


I can find castings for industrial machines pretty cheap in qty 1

What i see are C frames, single casting, with base plate as long as over arm.

While the basic idea is good, I would not consider it unless the frame 
was originally designed for heavy duty leather or sail making machines, 
which will have considerably stiffer base plates.


Any thoughts?

( I don't have a sewing machine to lean on ;-)


TomP



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Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] Sewing Machine Stiffness

[Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users]

You'd need to get a frame casting, set up indicators, then do some pushing, 
twisting, and leaning on it to see how much it moves.

What could stiffen it is filling all its internal space with epoxy. The upper 
casting from one of these
https://china-highly.en.made-in-china.com/product/gSHxMeWyblRA/China-Hl-246-Long-Arm-Compound-Feeding-Super-Heavy-Sewing-Machine.html
could do the job since it bolts on from above it could be mounted over any XY 
base you can build.

Just might be workable for a wood router for sign carving. Z travel would be 
limited to whatever vertical slide you mount, and if you space the arm up 
higher.

I'd expect that the really long ones with arms around 30 inches, would be 
pretty well vibration damped in order to handle high speed sewing in heavy 
materials like canvas. Sewing is mostly a short vertical motion. I'd assume the 
main area of concern for adapting a long arm sewing machine to routing would be 
resistance to bending sideways and twisting around the long axis of the arm.



On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 11:00:22 AM MDT, Thomas J Powderly 
 wrote: 

I saw an overarm router recently

and wondered if a sewing machine frame was stiff.

Compared to a desktop gantry mill.


I imagined a makita router mounted on the over arm

minimal Z travel ( 150mm at most)


I can find castings for industrial machines pretty cheap in qty 1

What i see are C frames, single casting, with base plate as long as over 
arm.


Any thoughts?

( I don't have a sewing machine to lean on ;-)


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Re: [Emc-users] Sewing Machine Stiffness

[Chris Albertson]

I think there would be a huge variation.  A cheap $100 consumer sewingmachine 
would not be at strong as an industrial sewing machine that sells for 20 times 
as much.

One problem with many homemade gentry machines is that people us too-thin 
material for the base.If the gantry rails are screwed to a sheet of 
plywood, the entire machine will be as rigid as a sheet of plywood.

I’ve been working on some kitchens lately and visiting granite yards.  They 
typically have cut-off leftovers for not a lot of money.  A slab of stone would 
be much better than a plywood sheet and not expensive if it only has to be 
sewing machine sized.



> On May 20, 2023, at 9:28 AM, Thomas J Powderly  wrote:
> 
> 
> I saw an overarm router recently
> 
> and wondered if a sewing machine frame was stiff.
> 
> Compared to a desktop gantry mill.
> 
> 
> I imagined a makita router mounted on the over arm
> 
> minimal Z travel ( 150mm at most)
> 
> 
> I can find castings for industrial machines pretty cheap in qty 1
> 
> What i see are C frames, single casting, with base plate as long as over arm.
> 
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> ( I don't have a sewing machine to lean on ;-)
> 
> 
> TomP
> 
> 
> 
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