Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Pete Biggs]

On Mon, 2022-10-31 at 03:49 +0100, Ángel wrote:
> On 2022-10-26 at 12:00 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > That's interesting. It looks like Gnome are using an old version of
> > Discourse then.
> > 
> > The comments about categories and topics is interesting. I asked if
> > it were possible to create sub-categories in the Applications
> > category and the answer was a complete and resounding NO.
> 
> I think you refer to 
> https://discourse.gnome.org/t/sub-categories/11733/6

Yes, that's the one.  

I think there was a couple of things that peeved me about that
discussion. Clearly they don't want anything to do with mailing lists,
nor do they seem to really care about the transition - "this is what we
are providing, live with it", if you don't like it, find somewhere
else. I fear that it's the kid with a ball - it's my ball, so we are
going to play by my rules - and the kid is still playing by their rules
as they kick the ball against the wall on their own.

The comments also about them providing the Gnome ecosystem, that
Evolution lives with in, for free, and so we should be a damn sight
more grateful about it. I feel that the contribution that *we* provide
for free in supporting the applications that makes Gnome what it is has
been deftly overlooked in all this. This list has provided a focus for
user support of Evolution and has many people with decades of
experience of using it. The support will almost certainly now become
fragmented: There will be a new mailing list which may, or may not,
fly; there will be Discourse that Gnome (not Evolution) stalwarts will
use - but not sure users will ever find it; but I think most support
will be via the distro forums now.


> 
> 
> > 
> > Plain text emails going into the system should be just that. I send
> > them as plain text not as markdown. If I wanted to give them some
> > form of extra formatting I would use HTML. Can't text just be
> > interpreted as text.
> 
> Plain text emails often use _some_ symbols for *emphasis*.
> While there is no clear standard for that, interpreting them as
> markdown isn't that an odd choice.

It looks like in Discourse the plain text emails are shoved into an
HTML container without any further processing when displayed. So all
the white space is collapsed and a variable width font is used
destroying any semblance of formatting.  If they just surrounded plain
text with   tags it would be better.

I have nothing against Markdown and I happily use it other on-line
things - but not email.

> 
> 
> That would be sensible. Although markdown should be mostly backwards
> compatible when feed with plaintext.
> 
Yes, Markdown is - but Discourse seems to just take the Markdown
elements, and only those elements and change them into the equivalent
HTML leaving the rest of the text to the whims of a browser.

P.


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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Paul W Parker via evolution-list]

IMHO emails remain easier and better than web-pages, so I shall miss
the emails from evolution-list  {:-((



Paul W Parker 
Australia
.


On Mon, 2022-10-31 at 03:48 +0100, Ángel wrote:
> 
> 
> __
> evolution-list mailing list
> evolution-list@gnome.org
> To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ...
> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Ángel]

On 2022-10-26 at 12:00 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> That's interesting. It looks like Gnome are using an old version of
> Discourse then.
> 
> The comments about categories and topics is interesting. I asked if
> it were possible to create sub-categories in the Applications
> category and the answer was a complete and resounding NO.

I think you refer to 
https://discourse.gnome.org/t/sub-categories/11733/6

When looking at discourse I also considered the interface should have a
section per application and for properly filing the support requests.
Then, actually looking at the workflow it understand it makes sense.
It's a bit weird, sure, but when creating a new post, it does ask you
the tag (i.e. the application), and you can search for only some
application tags.

It's not what I expected, it can probably be made available with a
"better" interface, but their use of tags makes sense. Specially since
there's such large number of GNOME applications that would have to be
listed.


> It seems to me that they think users/we/contributors should be
> interested in the whole of the Gnome ecosystem not just one bit of
> it.  This is a Gnome Discourse issue, not a Discourse issue.

I think it will lead to more exposure of the different silos. So that
someone mostly interested in the Music player will now be more likely
to help an evolution or gedit user. But, at the same time, this also
means more exposure to the other apps for those not interested a tiny
bit in the other parts of GNOME.


> 
> Plain text emails going into the system should be just that. I send
> them as plain text not as markdown. If I wanted to give them some
> form of extra formatting I would use HTML. Can't text just be
> interpreted as text.

Plain text emails often use _some_ symbols for *emphasis*.
While there is no clear standard for that, interpreting them as
markdown isn't that an odd choice.

Hyperkitty can do something similar (which is configurable):

https://docs.mailman3.org/projects/hyperkitty/en/latest/rendering.html


> Or it should at least be a bit more intelligent about it - if
> there are markdown elements, interpret it as markdown, otherwise it's
> plain text.


That would be sensible. Although markdown should be mostly backwards
compatible when feed with plaintext.


Regards


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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Ángel]

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

On Wed, 2022-10-26 at 12:29 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote:
> "evolution-users"

Hi,

if possible the old moderators should become the new admins/moderators,
hence one of them should get in contact with freedesktop.org or foo.bar.

If additional help is needed, maybe somebody from this list or I can
help. Just ask!

Don't forget to ask freedesktop.org or foo.bar, what they will use to
replace Mailman 2 ;).

Regards,
Ralf
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Milan Crha via evolution-list]

On Wed, 2022-10-26 at 16:06 +0200, George N. Reeke wrote:
> could you please let us all know where you will be when you have
> decided?

:))

Hi,
I'll go where the "official" way will lead. Let's wait for the result.
Poc and the other list admins will talk together and then a decision
might be made. I do not want to push the decision onto them, it's just
that they are much better than me with all the required mailing list
knowledge and experience and all that stuff.

I suppose the really last mail here might be something like "users can
follow the community at ." whatever the "" will be.

Bye,
Milan

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[George N. Reeke]

On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 18:26 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list
> wrote:
> > 
> > I suggested the two places where other similar/related projects to
> > the
> > Evolution already have their mailing lists. It might make sense to
> > be
> > nearby to them, from my point of view. Neither of those projects
> > are
> > developed under the GNOME umbrella, though.
> > 
> 
I would like to sign up for whatever list Milan will be looking
at and available on to help people.  (No need to say why!) Milan,
could you please let us all know where you will be when you have
decided?
George Reeke

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Andrea Veri]

Hi,

I’ve received several questions during the past days which possibly makes
sense to summarize in a single topic [1] which I can then reference.
Hopefully this specific post will help anyone looking for the same set of
answers as well. If any additional common question arises I’ll make sure to
add it to this same topic in Discourse.

Thanks and please let us know if you have any questions around Discourse or
your onboarding process!

[1]
https://discourse.gnome.org/t/common-questions-re-mailman-to-discourse/11841


On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 1:09 PM Andrea Veri  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> As we have been communicating during the past few months GNOME's Mailman
> platform is being decommissioned (python2 deprecation, major burden in
> managing lists spam). The deadline is currently set to the end of October
> 2022. Mailing list subscribers are invited to migrate to GNOME's Discourse
> instance [1]. Neil made sure [2] to create a set of tags you can re-use to
> initiate a new topic in the new platform, if a tag is missing please reach
> out to me directly.
>
> Jehan (from the GIMP Team) kindly provided some instructions you can
> follow [3] in order to safely migrate your reading workflow to Discourse.
> The new platform supports several login methods including your GNOME
> Account and other major OpenID providers.
>
> After the deadline of the end of October Mailman archives will remain
> alive in read only mode for posterity. If the mailing list was used behind
> an alias, please let me know so we can re-do the same setup but on
> Discourse instead.
>
> Thanks,
>
> P.S All the l10n lists are still pending code changes in damned-lies, the
> deadline to decommission those lists may slip by a week or two depending
> how soon those changes will be made available in DL codebase
>
> [1] https://discourse.gnome.org
> [2]
> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2022-September/msg00018.html
> [3]
> https://discourse.gnome.org/t/welcome-to-gimp-forum-on-gnome-discourse/11534/5
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Andrea
>
> Principal Systems Engineer at Red Hat,
> GNOME Infrastructure Team Coordinator,
> Former GNOME Foundation Board of Directors Secretary,
> GNOME Foundation Membership & Elections Committee Chairman
>
> Homepage: https://www.dragonsreach.it
>


-- 
Cheers,
Andrea

Principal Systems Engineer at Red Hat,
GNOME Infrastructure Team Coordinator,
Former GNOME Foundation Board of Directors Secretary,
GNOME Foundation Membership & Elections Committee Chairman

Homepage: https://www.dragonsreach.it
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2022-10-26 at 12:29 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote:
> On Wed, 2022-10-26 at 11:13 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > My personal opinion is that the Freedesktop site looks more
> > promising, purely in terms of the number of lists they host
> 
> Hi,
> I kinda like it too. Who's gonna ask there for the conditions of
> adding a new mailing list there, please? As you said, it would be a
> pita to have multiple people asking the same question(s) for the same
> list there. I'm sure I do not want to maintain the list, I do not
> want to be an admin of it, but I can help to gather the information.
> 
> By the way, the page to create a list is accessible. Whether it lets
> me create a new list without asking the freedesktop.org folks I do
> not know, I wasn't brave enough to try to create the list, though I'd
> rather not create the list behind their back. I do not know how these
> things work.

I guess it would make sense for one of the moderators to do it, unless
someone has a better idea. Note that none of us is strictly an "admin",
we just moderate posts when required and have some control over user
access and other aspects of Mailman configuration. I'll consult with
the other two guys to see what they think.

> Partly related, would the new list be named "evolution-users" or
> "evolution-list"? The "evolution-hackers" is going to be shut down,
> there's not much to be written there these days.
> I think "evolution-users" (as suggested by someone else here) is
> good, it may even help to distinguish it from a Darwinism mailing
> list ;)

I'd say "evolution-users" would make sense, on the assumption that we
don't expect the archives to be merged.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Pete Biggs]

On Wed, 2022-10-26 at 11:24 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 13:09 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > > 
> > > They do, an example set of headers from one of the replies I got
> > > recently:
> > > 
> > > Reply-To: GNOME Discourse
> > > <03e7e14d32e53136f623f8ab8e9...@discourse.gnome.org>
> > > Message-ID:
> > > 
> > > References: 
> > 
> > The threading information needs some serious work. The References:
> > header doesn't match up with the message being replied to, in fact
> > the
> > only consistent reference is to the
> > topic/xx...@discourse.gnome.org ID.
> > Consequently there's no real threading in the mail from Discourse,
> > everything is at the same level underneath the first mail - and it
> > doesn't take much for not even that to work.
> > 
> > 
> > And I still can't find out how to get an email copy of my own posts.
> > Is
> > that even possible?
> 
> I mentioned your objections in a post to the Fedora Users list (which
> uses Mailman3), and this was a reply from one of its users:
> 
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/us...@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/JUIEBVLICRHOEW6IQ34QS4445N6CNNVN/
> 
That's interesting. It looks like Gnome are using an old version of
Discourse then.

The comments about categories and topics is interesting. I asked if it
were possible to create sub-categories in the Applications category and
the answer was a complete and resounding NO. It seems to me that they
think users/we/contributors should be interested in the whole of the
Gnome ecosystem not just one bit of it.  This is a Gnome Discourse
issue, not a Discourse issue.

Similarly with sporadic emails - that's a Gnome infrastructure thing.

Plain text emails going into the system should be just that. I send
them as plain text not as markdown. If I wanted to give them some form
of extra formatting I would use HTML. Can't text just be interpreted as
text. Or it should at least be a bit more intelligent about it - if
there are markdown elements, interpret it as markdown, otherwise it's
plain text.

P.



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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Milan Crha via evolution-list]

On Wed, 2022-10-26 at 11:13 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> My personal opinion is that the Freedesktop site looks more
> promising, purely in terms of the number of lists they host

Hi,
I kinda like it too. Who's gonna ask there for the conditions of adding
a new mailing list there, please? As you said, it would be a pita to
have multiple people asking the same question(s) for the same list
there. I'm sure I do not want to maintain the list, I do not want to be
an admin of it, but I can help to gather the information.

By the way, the page to create a list is accessible. Whether it lets me
create a new list without asking the freedesktop.org folks I do not
know, I wasn't brave enough to try to create the list, though I'd
rather not create the list behind their back. I do not know how these
things work.

Partly related, would the new list be named "evolution-users" or
"evolution-list"? The "evolution-hackers" is going to be shut down,
there's not much to be written there these days.
I think "evolution-users" (as suggested by someone else here) is good,
it may even help to distinguish it from a Darwinism mailing list ;)

Bye,
Milan

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 13:09 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > 
> > They do, an example set of headers from one of the replies I got
> > recently:
> > 
> > Reply-To: GNOME Discourse
> > <03e7e14d32e53136f623f8ab8e9...@discourse.gnome.org>
> > Message-ID:
> > 
> > References: 
> 
> The threading information needs some serious work. The References:
> header doesn't match up with the message being replied to, in fact
> the
> only consistent reference is to the
> topic/xx...@discourse.gnome.org ID.
> Consequently there's no real threading in the mail from Discourse,
> everything is at the same level underneath the first mail - and it
> doesn't take much for not even that to work.
> 
> 
> And I still can't find out how to get an email copy of my own posts.
> Is
> that even possible?

I mentioned your objections in a post to the Fedora Users list (which
uses Mailman3), and this was a reply from one of its users:

https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/us...@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/JUIEBVLICRHOEW6IQ34QS4445N6CNNVN/

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2022-10-26 at 07:34 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote:
> On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 22:23 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > Can you ask them? Probably better not to have several people asking
> > the same questions.
> 
> Hi,
> I can ask David, the infradead.org person, though I thought I'll keep
> the real paper work to somebody more knowledgeable than me.
> 
> > We'd also need to know if they support migrating the
> > current list membership.
> 
> I won't do that. Let the people decide which sites hold their mail
> addresses. Some may not like being moved to a different site without
> their explicit agreement. People should also choose their mailing
> list password on their own.

Fair enough.

> > I think it would help if they could also host the archive, simply
> > to
> > avoid having it split between two sites, before and after the
> > change.
> 
> While it makes perfect sense for archive searching, I won't do that
> too. When you open
> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/ and
> go to the bottom, then the Download section shows sizes for
> respective
> months since year 2000. Those are gzip compressed .mbox files. For
> example September 2022 shows 511KB compressed and when I decompress
> it,
> it's 947K. I did not count all the years, but I'd rather not use so
> much space on the new site immediately after moving there. That won't
> be good.

I think that would be up to the site admins to decide.

My personal opinion is that the Freedesktop site looks more promising,
purely in terms of the number of lists they host, but I'm fine with
whichever one makes the transition easier.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

On Wed, 2022-10-26 at 07:34 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote:
> On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 22:23 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > Can you ask them? Probably better not to have several people asking
> > the same questions.
> 
>   Hi,
> I can ask David, the infradead.org person, though I thought I'll keep
> the real paper work to somebody more knowledgeable than me.


Hi,

there's still the option to open a list at risup.net [1], [2].

Regards,
Ralf

[1]
" Western Meadowlark replied... about 6 hours ago

Hi Ralf,

Please go ahead and create the list request. I don't see why would have
a problem hosting a list for a FLOSS MUA - personally, I think FLOSS
itself is a movement for radical social change given the power and role
of proprietary software in the world.

Best wishes," - https://support.riseup.net/en/ticket/3227QJ76OfCW7Ci7

[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riseup
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Milan Crha via evolution-list]

On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 22:23 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> Can you ask them? Probably better not to have several people asking
> the same questions.

Hi,
I can ask David, the infradead.org person, though I thought I'll keep
the real paper work to somebody more knowledgeable than me.

> We'd also need to know if they support migrating the
> current list membership.

I won't do that. Let the people decide which sites hold their mail
addresses. Some may not like being moved to a different site without
their explicit agreement. People should also choose their mailing list
password on their own.

> I think it would help if they could also host the archive, simply to
> avoid having it split between two sites, before and after the change.

While it makes perfect sense for archive searching, I won't do that
too. When you open https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/ and
go to the bottom, then the Download section shows sizes for respective
months since year 2000. Those are gzip compressed .mbox files. For
example September 2022 shows 511KB compressed and when I decompress it,
it's 947K. I did not count all the years, but I'd rather not use so
much space on the new site immediately after moving there. That won't
be good.

Bye,
Milan

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 18:26 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote:
> On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 13:09 +0200, Andrea Veri wrote:
> > After the deadline of the end of October Mailman archives will
> > remain
> > alive in read only mode for posterity. If the mailing list was used
> > behind an alias, please let me know so we can re-do the same setup
> > but on Discourse instead.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > P.S All the l10n lists are still pending code changes in damned-
> > lies,
> > the deadline to decommission those lists may slip by a week or two
> > depending how soon those changes will be made available in DL
> > codebase
> 
> Hi,
> I just asked Andrea to keep the evolution-list running a bit longer.
> It's currently postponed to the mid of the November. It gives roughly
> two more weeks to decide where to go, if anywhere.
> 
> My personal opinion is to use a free mailing list service. Expecting
> there will be people not moving to the new location, thus the
> location
> will not turn from free to a paid service is not ideal. It's better
> to
> stay on the safe side, to avoid another move elsewhere in the near or
> far future.
> 

I agree.

> I suggested the two places where other similar/related projects to
> the
> Evolution already have their mailing lists. It might make sense to be
> nearby to them, from my point of view. Neither of those projects are
> developed under the GNOME umbrella, though.
> 
Agreed again.

> I do not know what conditions the freedesktop.org [1] or the
> infradead.org [2] have to accept a new mailing list. It's to be
> discovered by the list admins, if they/you/we agree on any of these
> services. Or other services. When it comes to it, the old good
> SourceForge supports mailing lists as well.
> 
> I do not mind that much, as long as no money is involved. I do not
> think it would be fair to ask any money from the volunteers. Invest
> your wisdom, rather than bugs.

Can you ask them? Probably better not to have several people asking the
same questions. We'd also need to know if they support migrating the
current list membership. I think it would help if they could also host
the archive, simply to avoid having it split between two sites, before
and after the change.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 18:59 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list
wrote:
> On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 18:26 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list
> wrote:
> > My personal opinion is to use a free mailing list service.
> > Expecting
> > there will be people not moving to the new location, thus the
> > location
> > will not turn from free to a paid service is not ideal. It's better
> > to
> > stay on the safe side, to avoid another move elsewhere in the near
> > or
> > far future.
> 
> +1
> 
> > I suggested the two places where other similar/related projects to
> > the
> > Evolution already have their mailing lists. It might make sense to
> > be
> > nearby to them, from my point of view. Neither of those projects
> > are
> > developed under the GNOME umbrella, though.
> > 
> > [1] https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/
> > [2] http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/
> 
> Joking:
> 
> [1] does host more than one controversial project, while [2] does
> host the Mailman mailing list, but the Mailman mailing list is unused
> :D.

They also host several prominent free software lists, including
LibreOffice, Nouveau and gstreamer-* among others.

> A serious concern:
> 
> Both use Mailman 2. Do they soon migrate to Mailman 3 or to Twitter
> and Discourse?

I'll ask them.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Milan Crha via evolution-list]

On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 18:59 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list
wrote:
> Both use Mailman 2. Do they soon migrate to Mailman 3 or to Twitter
> and Discourse?

Hi,
that's a question for them.
Bye,
Milan

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 18:26 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote:
> My personal opinion is to use a free mailing list service. Expecting
> there will be people not moving to the new location, thus the location
> will not turn from free to a paid service is not ideal. It's better to
> stay on the safe side, to avoid another move elsewhere in the near or
> far future.

+1

> I suggested the two places where other similar/related projects to the
> Evolution already have their mailing lists. It might make sense to be
> nearby to them, from my point of view. Neither of those projects are
> developed under the GNOME umbrella, though.
> 
> [1] https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/
> [2] http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/

Joking:

[1] does host more than one controversial project, while [2] does host
the Mailman mailing list, but the Mailman mailing list is unused :D.

A serious concern:

Both use Mailman 2. Do they soon migrate to Mailman 3 or to Twitter and
Discourse?
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Milan Crha via evolution-list]

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 13:09 +0200, Andrea Veri wrote:
> After the deadline of the end of October Mailman archives will remain
> alive in read only mode for posterity. If the mailing list was used
> behind an alias, please let me know so we can re-do the same setup
> but on Discourse instead.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> P.S All the l10n lists are still pending code changes in damned-lies,
> the deadline to decommission those lists may slip by a week or two
> depending how soon those changes will be made available in DL
> codebase

Hi,
I just asked Andrea to keep the evolution-list running a bit longer.
It's currently postponed to the mid of the November. It gives roughly
two more weeks to decide where to go, if anywhere.

My personal opinion is to use a free mailing list service. Expecting
there will be people not moving to the new location, thus the location
will not turn from free to a paid service is not ideal. It's better to
stay on the safe side, to avoid another move elsewhere in the near or
far future.

I suggested the two places where other similar/related projects to the
Evolution already have their mailing lists. It might make sense to be
nearby to them, from my point of view. Neither of those projects are
developed under the GNOME umbrella, though.

I do not know what conditions the freedesktop.org [1] or the
infradead.org [2] have to accept a new mailing list. It's to be
discovered by the list admins, if they/you/we agree on any of these
services. Or other services. When it comes to it, the old good
SourceForge supports mailing lists as well.

I do not mind that much, as long as no money is involved. I do not
think it would be fair to ask any money from the volunteers. Invest
your wisdom, rather than bugs.

Anyway, my personal opinion.
Bye,
Milan

[1] https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/
[2] http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Steve Litt]

Patrick O'Callaghan said on Sat, 22 Oct 2022 12:40:36 +0100

>On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 20:04 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:

>> How many members does this list have? If it's less than 100, we can
>> use
>> the free version of groups.io.  
>
>As of right now, there are 856 registered subscribers to the Evolution
>list.

This would be very roughly $30 USD per month for groups.io. Futurequest
would be less than 1/3 that amount, although I don't know how well
Futurequest would service 856 people.

SteveT

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 19:14 +0200, Torsten Krah wrote:
> The problem is we do only have a few days left to discuss that

Hi,

in 2021 a member of the Ubuntu community started to run an off-topic
mailing list. It has got very low traffic, the list archive only
contains January 2021, February 2021, May 2021, July 2021 and September
2021 ;), since just a few people started using it for off-topic
discussions.

Discourse is already an off-topic discussion on the Ubuntu users mailing
list, see
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2022-October/308598.html
.

I suspect that we can stay in contact via
https://lists.sonic.net/mailman/listinfo/itsbuntoff .

We need to ask
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2021-January/303099.html
, I add rikona by Cc.

I'm already subscribed.

Still open: https://support.riseup.net/en/ticket/3227QJ76OfCW7Ci7

I suspect that https://freeshell.de/about/ can't be used for this
purpose. I've got an account, but still need to read. However, if we
take some time and stay in contact, we probably will find a solution.
End of October isn't the end of the world.

We already had an offer or two offers by members of this mailing list,
we should keep this/those offers in mind, too.

Regards,
Ralf
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Torsten Krah via evolution-list]

I do have the skills to drive a mailman list from an infrastructure point
of view including all the mta, spam etc. stuff with postfix & co, DNS etc.
pp.


We would need a maildomain + some hosting provider and now here it gets
interesting - at least it is much less than the group.io prices written
here per month, e.g. if you look at the virtual servers from hetzner.de for
e.g. a cx21 it's about 6,37€ per month + storage box backup place + the
domain costs which are e.g. for a .de domain about 12€ per year, .org about
16€ and we would have no limitations from users etc - only the resources of
the host are of cause the limit ;-).

So we could move to something driven by the community itself including the
costs or we move like Milan said maybe to freedesktop lists infra if we can
...

The problem is we do only have a few days left to discuss that and to
analyze what most members and the devs itself prefer here including for
example to provide a prototype of alternatives to test and vote against or
in favour - really a bad move to not communicate that earlier on this list
itself but somewhere else where no one of the nearly 950 subscribers are
subscribed too to read that ... :-/.

Just my 2 cents about that.

Torsten
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[mario chiari]

+1

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 12:47 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > 
> 
> If this is real, then the "communicating" has been sadly lacking.
> This
> is the first I've heard of it.
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, but I find "Forum" type things, which I believe is what
> Discourse is, not at all intuitive and I hate dealing with them. Is
> there to be no way of contributing sensibly using email - yes, I've
> read the post from "Jehan" - it looks like it's a distinct kludge to
> interact with it via email.
> 
> 20 years of helping the Evolution community and it looks like it's
> the
> end.
> 
> P.
> 
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 09:53 -0500, Anonymous Japhering via evolution-
list wrote:
> The free level only allows up to 100 members -- how many folks are in
> the current list?

Around 850 at the moment.

> All levels have restrictions on archive size:  1GB, 30GB, 1TB. Anyone
> know how big, size wise, the archives are?

I could probably get that info but I'd be surprised if it were less
than 1GB.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 09:53 -0500, Anonymous Japhering wrote:
> Groups.io is interesting but also there are a few concerning things
> The free level only allows up to 100 members -- how many folks are in 
>  the current list?
>  
>  All levels have restrictions on archive size:  1GB, 30GB, 1TB.

https://riseup.net/en/lists/list-admin/configuration/creating-lists

I created a ticket at https://support.riseup.net/en/topics/new .


Email:  ralf-mardorf at riseup.net
Name:   Ralf Mardorf
Group/Team: Lists
Subject:Freedom of Internet users

Message:

Hi,

I suspect that a FLOSS mailing list for a MUA doesn't fit the "only
requirement" "that the list must be used for radical social change."
OTOH fighting against nowadays Internet lifestyle by some of us is
considered "a progressive, radical, or revolutionary nature", hence this
request.

Evolution is a full featured FLOSS MUA, that can replace proprietary
solutions for almost everything. The GNOME project informed the
subscribers of the Evolution mailing list 11 days before it will be
dropped. The list is discontinued at the end of this month, see
https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2022-October/msg00128.html
.

The replacement is https://discourse.gnome.org/ , a forum with levels,
badges, no real archive, sending mails with remote content. Our
community is being threatened by decay, since we can't stand this
approach, that is a copy of proprietary approaches, that aren't good for
the freedom of Internet usage.

Apart from jokes related to the Vogons, we don't have fun, but instead
we suffer from fear to loose another free community.

I wonder if you would allow us to migrate this list to lists.riseup.net
. Almost all subscribers don't care about GNOME at all, we care about a
good MUA and a lot of users aren't willing to follow GNOME's migration
to Discourse.

AFAIK we are around 900 subscribers, used to send plain text emails
without attachments.

Regards,
Ralf

PS:

This is the ticket:
https://support.riseup.net/en/ticket/3227QJ76OfCW7Ci7

Consider to drop a note.
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Anonymous Japhering via evolution-list]

On 10/21/22 11:50, Brewster Gillett wrote:

  Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list wrote:

A quick and simple question: who is in position to decide to move this list
to another mailing list, hosted elsewhere? There have been already a few
propositions on this list for an alternative. Who is the "owner" of this
list who can decide about the move?

bg:

Excellent question. I'll toss out this possibility:



We're using groups.io for a couple of the Mensa discussion lists I'm on.
Mostly indistinguishable from good ol' mailman. Don't know if there's
a cost involved, but I would be willing to contribute if we move there.


Groups.io is interesting but also there are a few concerning things

The free level only allows up to 100 members -- how many folks are in
the current list?

All levels have restrictions on archive size:  1GB, 30GB, 1TB. Anyone
know how big, size wise, the archives are?

It appears to be possible that the archives could, with some rules and
volunteer help, be converted into a Wiki or move into some other integrated
service (would need to get the complete list of integrations to see).

Hashtags might be useful to avoid subgroups ( user, dev, bugs, help etc ).

For those that still use RSS, there is an email to RSS feed.

Monthly pricing or Year in advance ( 12 months for the price of 11 )

Groups.io:

Free level

   Unlimited messages
   Up to 100 members
   Advanced moderation features
   1GB attachment storage

Premium level -  $0.04/member per month with a $20/month minimum

   Everything in Free, plus:

   Direct add members
   Customizable profiles and member data
   Unlimited subgroups
   Calendar
   Files section
   Photo albums
   Real-time chat
   Wiki
   Structured databases
   Polls
   Accept donations from members
   30GB storage space

Enterprise level -  $0.20/member per month with a $200/month minimum

   Everything in Premium, plus:

   Your own branding
   Your own domain
   Single sign on, via Auth0 (others by request)
   Customizable home page
   1TB storage space
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 20:04 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> Brewster Gillett said on Fri, 21 Oct 2022 09:50:24 -0700
> 
> 
> > Excellent question. I'll toss out this possibility:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > We're using groups.io for a couple of the Mensa discussion lists
> > I'm
> > on. Mostly indistinguishable from good ol' mailman. Don't know if
> > there's a cost involved, but I would be willing to contribute if we
> > move there.
> 
> How many members does this list have? If it's less than 100, we can
> use
> the free version of groups.io.

As of right now, there are 856 registered subscribers to the Evolution
list.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Steve Litt]

Brewster Gillett said on Fri, 21 Oct 2022 09:50:24 -0700


>Excellent question. I'll toss out this possibility:
>
>
>
>We're using groups.io for a couple of the Mensa discussion lists I'm
>on. Mostly indistinguishable from good ol' mailman. Don't know if
>there's a cost involved, but I would be willing to contribute if we
>move there.

How many members does this list have? If it's less than 100, we can use
the free version of groups.io.

SteveT

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Steve Litt]

Brewster Gillett said on Fri, 21 Oct 2022 09:50:24 -0700


>
>Excellent question. I'll toss out this possibility:
>
>
>
>We're using groups.io for a couple of the Mensa discussion lists I'm
>on. Mostly indistinguishable from good ol' mailman. Don't know if
>there's a cost involved, but I would be willing to contribute if we
>move there.

I will too, ten USD per year. 

SteveT

Steve Litt 
Summer 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Brewster Gillett]

 Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list wrote:
> A quick and simple question: who is in position to decide to move this list
> to another mailing list, hosted elsewhere? There have been already a few
> propositions on this list for an alternative. Who is the "owner" of this
> list who can decide about the move?

bg:

Excellent question. I'll toss out this possibility:



We're using groups.io for a couple of the Mensa discussion lists I'm on.
Mostly indistinguishable from good ol' mailman. Don't know if there's
a cost involved, but I would be willing to contribute if we move there.

This "Discourse" is a poorly structured, excessively juvey and chirpy
construct which appears to present group interactions in an extremely
cumbersome fashion. And "badges", fer chrissake! Bohdges? We doan need no
steenkin' bohdges!

If we're stuck with Discourse, I'm gone. And open to replacement suggestions
for Linux MUAs other than Evo.

Brewster



-- 

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 18:41 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> https://discourse.gnome.org/t/a-test-topic-so-that-the-refugees-from-the-evolution-mailing-list-can-try-and-sort-things-out/1170

The complete link does read
  
https://discourse.gnome.org/t/a-test-topic-so-that-the-refugees-from-the-evolution-mailing-list-can-try-and-sort-things-out/11701
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 17:19 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 12:11 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> > Sorin Srbu via evolution-list said on Fri, 21 Oct 2022 09:50:23 +
> > 
> > 
> > > Ah, seems like Discourse closes topics after fourteen days with no
> > > traffic. Might this be a problem when revisiting the same topic but
> > > later? 
> > 
> > Yes.
> > 
> It's actually a month now - don't know if that just the Evolution tag
> or what.

Hi,

"This topic will close a month after the last reply" other topics after
14 days.

What happens, if the subscriber who posted the last reply deletes the
account?

I deleted my account a few minutes ago and my post to
https://discourse.gnome.org/t/a-test-topic-so-that-the-refugees-from-the-evolution-mailing-list-can-try-and-sort-things-out/1170
vanished. The post wasn't deleted by me.

Apart from the deadline issue and all other annoyances, it also
seemingly doesn't work as an archive.

Regards,
Ralf
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Pete Biggs]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 12:11 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> Sorin Srbu via evolution-list said on Fri, 21 Oct 2022 09:50:23 +
> 
> 
> > Ah, seems like Discourse closes topics after fourteen days with no
> > traffic. Might this be a problem when revisiting the same topic but
> > later? 
> 
> Yes.
> 
It's actually a month now - don't know if that just the Evolution tag
or what.

P.
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Steve Litt]

Sorin Srbu via evolution-list said on Fri, 21 Oct 2022 09:50:23 +


>Ah, seems like Discourse closes topics after fourteen days with no
>traffic. Might this be a problem when revisiting the same topic but
>later? 

Yes.

SteveT

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Anonymous Japhering via evolution-list]

On 10/21/22 09:15, Pete Biggs wrote:

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 16:04 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list
wrote:

Dnia 21.10.2022 o godz. 14:57:04 Patrick O'Callaghan pisze:

As others have said, Evolution is primarily an email client, and it
makes sense that its main support forum should be a properly managed
mailing list.

A quick and simple question: who is in position to decide to move this list
to another mailing list, hosted elsewhere? There have been already a few
propositions on this list for an alternative. Who is the "owner" of this
list who can decide about the move?

I think the issue is largely that Evolution is a Gnome application. Any
"official" list - i.e. mentioned in documentation and so on - should,
or really can only, be under the auspices of the Gnome organisation. If
it's not then it's just some other random mailing list.

Gnome users will consistently be pointed towards Discourse as the route
for help and support; the developers will primarily be using Discourse
as their route to helping people and receiving feedback. No matter how
often people are told that "the helpful people are over there", it
would still be unofficial and unlikely to gain traction.


And via use of the "Trust" system, they have rendered it impossible
to shadow the list as that ID will never develop any trust.
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 14:57 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> Evolution is one of the few Gnome apps I use (my desktop is KDE) and I
> seriously do *not* want to have to deal with this on a message-by-
> message basis.

Hi,

Evolution isn't the only GNOME app I've got installed, but to my
knowledge it's the only one I'm using. I would be surprised, if another
app I'm using is a GNOME app, too.

To me receiving "Nautilus" related messages, is the same as receiving
(other) spam. IOW at the moment I receive lots of spam from Discourse
GNOME.

> I'm on several technical mailing lists, each of them with their own
> management. What they largely have in common is a set of common
> practices which people have become used to over a period of many
> years. The Gnome lists appear to be moving to platform which is
> radically different from every other list I'm on, and which requires a
> new set of tools to manage. This is a lot of pain for zero gain as far
> as I'm concerned.

It already starts with the multipart messages sent by Discourse. I can't
disable HTML, since administrative bodies etc. tend to send HTML emails.
>From a mailing list I expect to get plain text emails, no multipart, no
HTML. HTML is a PITA. I don't expect proper emails from administrative
bodies etc., but from BSD and Linux communities I expect a little bit
more familiarity related to emails.

Regards,
Ralf 






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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Pete Biggs]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 16:04 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list
wrote:
> Dnia 21.10.2022 o godz. 14:57:04 Patrick O'Callaghan pisze:
> > 
> > As others have said, Evolution is primarily an email client, and it
> > makes sense that its main support forum should be a properly managed
> > mailing list.
> 
> A quick and simple question: who is in position to decide to move this list
> to another mailing list, hosted elsewhere? There have been already a few
> propositions on this list for an alternative. Who is the "owner" of this
> list who can decide about the move?

I think the issue is largely that Evolution is a Gnome application. Any
"official" list - i.e. mentioned in documentation and so on - should,
or really can only, be under the auspices of the Gnome organisation. If
it's not then it's just some other random mailing list.

Gnome users will consistently be pointed towards Discourse as the route
for help and support; the developers will primarily be using Discourse
as their route to helping people and receiving feedback. No matter how
often people are told that "the helpful people are over there", it
would still be unofficial and unlikely to gain traction. 

P.
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Jim Popovitch via evolution-list]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 16:04 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list
wrote:
> Dnia 21.10.2022 o godz. 14:57:04 Patrick O'Callaghan pisze:
> > 
> > As others have said, Evolution is primarily an email client, and it
> > makes sense that its main support forum should be a properly managed
> > mailing list.
> 
> A quick and simple question: who is in position to decide to move this list
> to another mailing list, hosted elsewhere? There have been already a few
> propositions on this list for an alternative. Who is the "owner" of this
> list who can decide about the move?

Further, the previous stated reasons for dropping mail.gnome.org have
all been proven unsubstantiated. Python2 is not going away (Ubuntu Pro
supports it until the year 2030), and spam is not a problem on other
well run mailing lists. 

-Jim P. 


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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list]

Dnia 21.10.2022 o godz. 14:57:04 Patrick O'Callaghan pisze:
> 
> As others have said, Evolution is primarily an email client, and it
> makes sense that its main support forum should be a properly managed
> mailing list.

A quick and simple question: who is in position to decide to move this list
to another mailing list, hosted elsewhere? There have been already a few
propositions on this list for an alternative. Who is the "owner" of this
list who can decide about the move?
-- 
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   Jaroslaw Rafa
   r...@rafa.eu.org
--
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 14:10 +0200, Andrea Veri wrote:
> That's about correct, and I see where that can be seen as a
> limitation. You
> can only filter by category in the way that you're mentioning AFAIK.
> One
> way would be to include an [Evolution] or [$APP] tag in the subject
> line
> and filter by that but that'd require instructing users to do so, not
> particularly feasible. But that's definitely a good point.

It's a bit more than a "good point". To me this is a fatal limitation.
I'm willing to make the effort to adapt to Discourse (thousands
wouldn't) but unless a reliable solution to this is found the change is
simply unacceptable. I have absolutely no interest in following
discussions about the Gnome project as a whole. Evolution is one of the
few Gnome apps I use (my desktop is KDE) and I seriously do *not* want
to have to deal with this on a message-by-message basis.

As others have said, Evolution is primarily an email client, and it
makes sense that its main support forum should be a properly managed
mailing list.

A further point: I'm on several technical mailing lists, each of them
with their own management. What they largely have in common is a set of
common practices which people have become used to over a period of many
years. The Gnome lists appear to be moving to platform which is
radically different from every other list I'm on, and which requires a
new set of tools to manage. This is a lot of pain for zero gain as far
as I'm concerned.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Andrea Veri]

Pete,

threading is there and working as expected, been using Discourse for a
while and threading is properly working. At this point, for any further
question, I'd suggest you to open a new topic under [1] so that everyone
can help you and anyone else on this list getting what they're looking for.
As I mentioned a lot of users joined during the past few days and there's
been a lot of good discussion on how to build proper workflows to properly
replace Mailman. You have good points which I'm confident will benefit
everyone on the Discourse platform.

Thanks!

[1] https://discourse.gnome.org/c/site-feedback/3

On Fri, Oct 21, 2022 at 2:09 PM Pete Biggs  wrote:

> >
> > They do, an example set of headers from one of the replies I got
> > recently:
> >
> > Reply-To: GNOME Discourse
> > <03e7e14d32e53136f623f8ab8e9...@discourse.gnome.org>
> > Message-ID: 
> > References: 
>
> The threading information needs some serious work. The References:
> header doesn't match up with the message being replied to, in fact the
> only consistent reference is to the topic/xx...@discourse.gnome.org ID.
> Consequently there's no real threading in the mail from Discourse,
> everything is at the same level underneath the first mail - and it
> doesn't take much for not even that to work.
>
>
> And I still can't find out how to get an email copy of my own posts. Is
> that even possible?
>
> P.
>
>

-- 
Cheers,
Andrea

Principal Systems Engineer at Red Hat,
GNOME Infrastructure Team Coordinator,
Former GNOME Foundation Board of Directors Secretary,
GNOME Foundation Membership & Elections Committee Chairman

Homepage: https://www.dragonsreach.it
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Sorin Srbu via evolution-list]

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 22:58 +0200, Andrea Veri wrote:
> 
> Each Discourse category comes with an email endpoint, let's say you want
> to create a new thread under the Applications category, you can send an
> email to theapplicati...@discourse.gnome.org email and it gets
> automatically posted to Discourse, like you do today with Mailman. In the
> background we can configure an automatic tag, that is whenever the
> Evolution or Evo (or anything you prefer) word is mentioned (similar to
> what happens today with Mailman list name tag on subjects) the "evolution"
> tag is automatically added to your thread, that eases consumption by your
> contributors which have watchers defined for the "evolution" tag.
> 
> I'm more than happy to work with you guys to ease this transition. But
> please keep in mind that nobody is forcing you to use a web forum,
> Discourse (NOT Discord) can also work as a plain mailing list (please see
> Andre's mail [1] around this), so don't be alarmed.

Hi!

I'd like to see this automation in action first, if possible.

Pete Biggs raises a valid point about the "evolution of Evince" though.
Would this be tagged as an Evolution Mail topic then?
How "smart" is this automation?

What needs to be done/okayed/whatever to have you(?) set this up for us to
try out?

Before somebody asks, I'm just a lowly enduser and have no idea about
automatic tagging on web forums and stuff like that. 
I just want to use the information available here in a fast and easy
fashion. :-)

-- 
Sorin Srbu, Serverdrift
Tele: 08-524 84166
Karolinska Institutet Universitetsbibliotek
Avdelningen för Verksamhetsstöd
Enheten för Teknikstöd och Bildproduktion


# They say you can't buy happiness, but you can buy a 
# motorcycle, and that's pretty damn close!



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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Andrea Veri]

Pete,

That's about correct, and I see where that can be seen as a limitation. You
can only filter by category in the way that you're mentioning AFAIK. One
way would be to include an [Evolution] or [$APP] tag in the subject line
and filter by that but that'd require instructing users to do so, not
particularly feasible. But that's definitely a good point.

On Fri, Oct 21, 2022 at 1:02 PM Pete Biggs  wrote:

>
> >
> > Tagging means adding a tag to a specific thread that is created to
> > make sure it can easily be filtered out and most importantly it can
> > easily be configured as a watcher (i.e the process that allows you to
> > receive an email when a new email / response has been added to a
> > thread). Our Discourse instance already has a tag called "evolution",
> > which can be used to tag a specific thread at creation time (or later
> > on in the process) to make sure it gets properly filtered for
> > contributors that are only interested in mc conversations. Each
> > Discourse category comes with an email endpoint, let's say you want
> > to create a new thread under the Applications category, you can send
> > an email to the applicati...@discourse.gnome.org email and it gets
> > automatically posted to Discourse, like you do today with Mailman. In
> > the background we can configure an automatic tag, that is whenever
> > the Evolution or Evo (or anything you prefer) word is mentioned
> > (similar to what happens today with Mailman list name tag on
> > subjects) the "evolution" tag is automatically added to your thread,
> > that eases consumption by your contributors which have watchers
> > defined for the "evolution" tag.
>
> So, the emails from Discourse come with a category label, not a tag
> label. i.e. the emails have a subject of "[Applications] ".  There
> doesn't seem to be any indication in the headers of the Tag(s) that
> caused the notification email to be sent.
>
> If someone is interested in more than one Gnome application, as far as
> I can see there's no way of filtering the two different "lists".
>
> Is this correct or am I missing something?
>
>
> P.
>
>

-- 
Cheers,
Andrea

Principal Systems Engineer at Red Hat,
GNOME Infrastructure Team Coordinator,
Former GNOME Foundation Board of Directors Secretary,
GNOME Foundation Membership & Elections Committee Chairman

Homepage: https://www.dragonsreach.it
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> They do, an example set of headers from one of the replies I got
> recently:
> 
> Reply-To: GNOME Discourse
> <03e7e14d32e53136f623f8ab8e9...@discourse.gnome.org>
> Message-ID: 
> References: 

The threading information needs some serious work. The References:
header doesn't match up with the message being replied to, in fact the
only consistent reference is to the topic/xx...@discourse.gnome.org ID.
Consequently there's no real threading in the mail from Discourse,
everything is at the same level underneath the first mail - and it
doesn't take much for not even that to work.


And I still can't find out how to get an email copy of my own posts. Is
that even possible?

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> Speaking of which, found this thread on Discourse. 
> Thanks to Pete Biggs, if you're here!

Always ... well until the demise.


P.

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> Tagging means adding a tag to a specific thread that is created to
> make sure it can easily be filtered out and most importantly it can
> easily be configured as a watcher (i.e the process that allows you to
> receive an email when a new email / response has been added to a
> thread). Our Discourse instance already has a tag called "evolution",
> which can be used to tag a specific thread at creation time (or later
> on in the process) to make sure it gets properly filtered for
> contributors that are only interested in mc conversations. Each
> Discourse category comes with an email endpoint, let's say you want
> to create a new thread under the Applications category, you can send
> an email to the applicati...@discourse.gnome.org email and it gets
> automatically posted to Discourse, like you do today with Mailman. In
> the background we can configure an automatic tag, that is whenever
> the Evolution or Evo (or anything you prefer) word is mentioned
> (similar to what happens today with Mailman list name tag on
> subjects) the "evolution" tag is automatically added to your thread,
> that eases consumption by your contributors which have watchers
> defined for the "evolution" tag.

So, the emails from Discourse come with a category label, not a tag
label. i.e. the emails have a subject of "[Applications] ".  There
doesn't seem to be any indication in the headers of the Tag(s) that
caused the notification email to be sent. 

If someone is interested in more than one Gnome application, as far as
I can see there's no way of filtering the two different "lists".

Is this correct or am I missing something?


P.

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Sorin Srbu via evolution-list]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 12:47 +0200, Sorin Srbu wrote:
> On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 11:13 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 09:50 +, Sorin Srbu via evolution-list wrote:
> > > Ah, seems like Discourse closes topics after fourteen days with no
> > > traffic.
> > > Might this be a problem when revisiting the same topic but later?
> > > One can create a new topic of course, and refer to the old one, but
> > > this
> > > seems to be one hoop to many to jump through.
> > > 
> > > FWIW, I prefer a regular mailing list like this. I can save topics I
> > > have a
> > > personal interest in and go also go back with a reply or request more
> > > info
> > > later on.
> > > 
> > 
> > A good point. I've had a little experience with the Rclone topic on
> > Discourse and must say I dislike it intensely, though haven't attempted
> > to use the email interface. However it does have a 14-day timeout,
> > which I think is entirely unsuitable for a list such as this one.
> 
> 
> I went to Discourse and enabled the category thing per Andrés summary mail
> earlier. I'm willing to give it a go for now, despite some initially not
> to
> promising gotcha's.
> 
> I also enabled the mailing list mode ("for the hardcore" users) in the
> preferences. 
> Now I'm waiting for some new topics to emerge and see if they end up in my
> mailer or not.
> 

Speaking of which, found this thread on Discourse. 
Thanks to Pete Biggs, if you're here!

https://discourse.gnome.org/t/a-test-topic-so-that-the-refugees-from-the-evolution-mailing-list-can-try-and-sort-things-out/11701/2


-- 
Sorin Srbu, Serverdrift
Tele: 08-524 84166
Karolinska Institutet Universitetsbibliotek
Avdelningen för Verksamhetsstöd
Enheten för Teknikstöd och Bildproduktion


# They say you can't buy happiness, but you can buy a 
# motorcycle, and that's pretty damn close!



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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Sorin Srbu via evolution-list]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 11:13 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 09:50 +, Sorin Srbu via evolution-list wrote:
> > Ah, seems like Discourse closes topics after fourteen days with no
> > traffic.
> > Might this be a problem when revisiting the same topic but later?
> > One can create a new topic of course, and refer to the old one, but
> > this
> > seems to be one hoop to many to jump through.
> > 
> > FWIW, I prefer a regular mailing list like this. I can save topics I
> > have a
> > personal interest in and go also go back with a reply or request more
> > info
> > later on.
> > 
> 
> A good point. I've had a little experience with the Rclone topic on
> Discourse and must say I dislike it intensely, though haven't attempted
> to use the email interface. However it does have a 14-day timeout,
> which I think is entirely unsuitable for a list such as this one.


I went to Discourse and enabled the category thing per Andrés summary mail
earlier. I'm willing to give it a go for now, despite some initially not to
promising gotcha's.

I also enabled the mailing list mode ("for the hardcore" users) in the
preferences. 
Now I'm waiting for some new topics to emerge and see if they end up in my
mailer or not.




-- 
Sorin Srbu, Serverdrift
Tele: 08-524 84166
Karolinska Institutet Universitetsbibliotek
Avdelningen för Verksamhetsstöd
Enheten för Teknikstöd och Bildproduktion


# They say you can't buy happiness, but you can buy a 
# motorcycle, and that's pretty damn close!



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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 09:50 +, Sorin Srbu via evolution-list wrote:
> Ah, seems like Discourse closes topics after fourteen days with no
> traffic.
> Might this be a problem when revisiting the same topic but later?
> One can create a new topic of course, and refer to the old one, but
> this
> seems to be one hoop to many to jump through.
> 
> FWIW, I prefer a regular mailing list like this. I can save topics I
> have a
> personal interest in and go also go back with a reply or request more
> info
> later on.
> 

A good point. I've had a little experience with the Rclone topic on
Discourse and must say I dislike it intensely, though haven't attempted
to use the email interface. However it does have a 14-day timeout,
which I think is entirely unsuitable for a list such as this one.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 11:27 +0200, Andrea Veri wrote:
> > One glaring omission in [1] and [2] is *this* *list*. Are you
> > expecting
> > everyone on this list to also be on the Gnome devel and foundation
> > lists? Many people who use this list don't even use Gnome, have no
> > interest in Gnome, nor really care about it. They just use
> > Evolution
> > and want some help.
> > 
> 
> This list is hosted on the GNOME Infrastructure which is sponsored by
> the
> GNOME Foundation and our sponsors, so yes, I expect at least one list
> representative to be subscribed to one of those lists.

I can't answer for what you may expect, but I can say with total
confidence that no-one ever mentioned such an expectation when I agreed
to be a moderator of this list.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 23:03 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> Have you ever read "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy"?

You took the words out of my mouth.

For those who don't get the reference:

“But Mr Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning
office for the last nine months.”
“Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them,
yesterday afternoon. You hadn’t exactly gone out of your way to call
attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or
anything.”
“But the plans were on display …”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a
locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the
door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard’.”

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Sorin Srbu via evolution-list]

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 13:09 +0200, Andrea Veri wrote:
> Du får inte e-post ofta från a...@gnome.org. Se varför det här är viktigt.
> Hi,
> 
> As we have been communicating during the past few months GNOME's Mailman
> platform is being decommissioned (python2 deprecation, major burden in
> managing lists spam). The deadline is currently set to the end of October
> 2022. Mailing list subscribers are invited to migrate to GNOME's Discourse
> instance [1]. Neil made sure [2] to create a set of tags you can re-use to
> initiate a new topic in the new platform, if a tag is missing please reach
> out to me directly.
> 
> Jehan (from the GIMP Team) kindly provided some instructions you can
> follow [3] in order to safely migrate your reading workflow to Discourse.
> The new platform supports several login methods including your GNOME
> Account and other major OpenID providers.
> 
> After the deadline of the end of October Mailman archives will remain
> alive in read only mode for posterity. If the mailing list was used behind
> an alias, please let me know so we can re-do the same setup but on
> Discourse instead.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> P.S All the l10n lists are still pending code changes in damned-lies, the
> deadline to decommission those lists may slip by a week or two depending
> how soon those changes will be made available in DL codebase
> 
> [1] https://discourse.gnome.org
> [2] 
> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2022-September/msg00018
> .html
> [3] 
> https://discourse.gnome.org/t/welcome-to-gimp-forum-on-gnome-discourse/115
> 34/5

Ah, seems like Discourse closes topics after fourteen days with no traffic.
Might this be a problem when revisiting the same topic but later?
One can create a new topic of course, and refer to the old one, but this
seems to be one hoop to many to jump through.

FWIW, I prefer a regular mailing list like this. I can save topics I have a
personal interest in and go also go back with a reply or request more info
later on.


-- 
Sorin Srbu, Serverdrift
Tele: 08-524 84166
Karolinska Institutet Universitetsbibliotek
Avdelningen för Verksamhetsstöd
Enheten för Teknikstöd och Bildproduktion


# They say you can't buy happiness, but you can buy a 
# motorcycle, and that's pretty damn close!




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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Andrea Veri]

On Fri, Oct 21, 2022 at 12:03 AM Pete Biggs  wrote:

> >
> > what you're saying is a honestly a bit unfair, lists decommission has
> > been communicated multiple times over the past few months, see [1]
> > and [2],
>
> Communicated to whom?
>
> Have you ever read "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy"?
>
> One glaring omission in [1] and [2] is *this* *list*. Are you expecting
> everyone on this list to also be on the Gnome devel and foundation
> lists? Many people who use this list don't even use Gnome, have no
> interest in Gnome, nor really care about it. They just use Evolution
> and want some help.
>

This list is hosted on the GNOME Infrastructure which is sponsored by the
GNOME Foundation and our sponsors, so yes, I expect at least one list
representative to be subscribed to one of those lists.


> >  but what's even more discouraging is seeing users on your list
>
> It's not my list. I'm just a user who has been trying to help people.
>
> > mentioning we're switching to *Discord*, or others not even
> > understanding Discourse has the same mailing list workflow that you
> > have today but has some sugar added on top for people who like web
> > forums and other features Discourse provides.
>
> My experience of web forums is that the discussions are disjointed,
> without any real threading, and it's difficult to follow detailed,
> lengthy, discussions.  Does tacking a mail interface on to it alleviate
> any of those issues?
>
> Do the notifications mails from Discourse have threading information in
> them? I don't see how it can if some posts are written on the forum and
> some are email based.  Have these sorts of issues been thought about?
> This is a mail client we are talking about here, we CARE about such
> things.
>

They do, an example set of headers from one of the replies I got recently:

Reply-To: GNOME Discourse <
03e7e14d32e53136f623f8ab8e9...@discourse.gnome.org>
Message-ID: 
References: 
Subject: [Community/Membership] New GNOME Foundation and Emeritus members
List-Unsubscribe: <
https://discourse.gnome.org/email/unsubscribe/6aa8437e14d329e176e2ea3f8ab84f1cf4289a9edc86693f8ab84f
>
List-ID: GNOME Discourse | Community Membership <
membership.community.discourse.gnome.org>
List-Archive:
https://discourse.gnome.org/t/new-gnome-foundation-and-emeritus-members/11399

The above IDs have been replaced with fake ones, but you get the idea.

As you can see the web forum and the plain mail setup are handled via
unique topic/threads IDs which are contained in the response emails users
get. On top of that you can filter by List-ID, exactly as you did with
Mailman. I want to keep stressing out how your workflow won't change,
Discourse is a totally acceptable solution for users that don't want to
interact with a web interface.

The Accessibility team wrote a great overview / instructions set [1] which
may be useful for you guys as well, we're seeing good traction in people
adopting the new tool and contributing into making sure other lists can do
the same.

[1]
https://discourse.gnome.org/t/welcome-to-gnome-discourse-screen-reader-users/11678

>
> >
> > There's a subset of lists (the l10n ones) which have requested an
> > exception from October's deadline, we can surely offer that in case
> > you want some more time in order to migrate somewhere else or just
> > give Discourse a try. But please, very please, let's just stop
> > complaining for the sake of doing so and without having even tried
> > using the new tool.
>
> But if we try it and don't like it, what then? I presume there is no
> other option under the auspices of Gnome? There's no point in lying
> down in front of the bulldozer?
>
>
> P.
>
>

-- 
Cheers,
Andrea

Principal Systems Engineer at Red Hat,
GNOME Infrastructure Team Coordinator,
Former GNOME Foundation Board of Directors Secretary,
GNOME Foundation Membership & Elections Committee Chairman

Homepage: https://www.dragonsreach.it
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Pete Biggs]

BTW, the tradition and expectation of this list is "no top posting",
"no html mails" and "trim your posts".  But I suppose that's a moot
point now.

I'm trying to work out how I'm going to deal with this - we've been
told to shut up and just do it, so I am ...

> 
> Tagging means adding a tag to a specific thread that is created to
> make sure it can easily be filtered out and most importantly it can
> easily be configured as a watcher (i.e the process that allows you to
> receive an email when a new email / response has been added to a
> thread). Our Discourse instance already has a tag called "evolution",
> which can be used to tag a specific thread at creation time (or later
> on in the process) to make sure it gets properly filtered for
> contributors that are only interested in mc conversations. Each
> Discourse category comes with an email endpoint, let's say you want
> to create a new thread under the Applications category, you can send
> an email to the applicati...@discourse.gnome.org email and it gets
> automatically posted to Discourse, like you do today with Mailman. In
> the background we can configure an automatic tag, that is whenever
> the Evolution or Evo (or anything you prefer) word is mentioned
> (similar to what happens today with Mailman list name tag on
> subjects) the "evolution" tag is automatically added to your thread,
> that eases consumption by your contributors which have watchers
> defined for the "evolution" tag.

So there is no specific "category" for Evolution. We can't directly
mail to, say, evolut...@discourse.gnome.org? It relies on some behind
the scenes automation to correctly tag a message?  What happens when
someone mentions "the evolution of evince as a PDF viewer", will that
get tagged as well?  Does the automation only apply to incoming mail or
would any web posts also get auto-tagged?

> 
> I'm more than happy to work with you guys to ease this transition.
> But please keep in mind that nobody is forcing you to use a web
> forum, Discourse (NOT Discord) can also work as a plain mailing list

But it really looks like this is a web forum thing that can notify you
of posts, but with an incoming email parser stuck on the side for those
that really must use email.  It doesn't have the feel of something that
has been designed as a mailing list replacement at its heart.


> (please see Andre's mail [1] around this), so don't be alarmed.
> 

We are not alarmed. We are dismayed and annoyed at the precipitous
nature of this announcement. 

P.


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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 23:03 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> Have you ever read "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy"?

So I'm not the only one :).

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 22:43 +0200, Andrea Veri wrote:
> what you're saying is a honestly a bit unfair, lists decommission has
> been communicated multiple times over the past few months

Hi,

a lot of Evolution users don't use GNOME or any other DE at all.

“There’s no point in acting surprised about it. All the planning charts
and demolition orders have been on display at your local planning
department in Alpha Centauri for 50 of your Earth years, so you’ve had
plenty of time to lodge any formal complaint and it’s far too late to
start making a fuss about it now. … What do you mean you’ve never been
to Alpha Centauri? Oh, for heaven’s sake, mankind, it’s only four light
years away, you know. I’m sorry, but if you can’t be bothered to take an
interest in local affairs, that’s your own lookout. Energize the
demolition beams.”

― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Regards,
Ralf
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> what you're saying is a honestly a bit unfair, lists decommission has
> been communicated multiple times over the past few months, see [1]
> and [2],

Communicated to whom?

Have you ever read "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy"?

One glaring omission in [1] and [2] is *this* *list*. Are you expecting
everyone on this list to also be on the Gnome devel and foundation
lists? Many people who use this list don't even use Gnome, have no
interest in Gnome, nor really care about it. They just use Evolution
and want some help.

>  but what's even more discouraging is seeing users on your list

It's not my list. I'm just a user who has been trying to help people.

> mentioning we're switching to *Discord*, or others not even
> understanding Discourse has the same mailing list workflow that you
> have today but has some sugar added on top for people who like web
> forums and other features Discourse provides.

My experience of web forums is that the discussions are disjointed,
without any real threading, and it's difficult to follow detailed,
lengthy, discussions.  Does tacking a mail interface on to it alleviate
any of those issues?

Do the notifications mails from Discourse have threading information in
them? I don't see how it can if some posts are written on the forum and
some are email based.  Have these sorts of issues been thought about?
This is a mail client we are talking about here, we CARE about such
things.

> 
> 
> There's a subset of lists (the l10n ones) which have requested an
> exception from October's deadline, we can surely offer that in case
> you want some more time in order to migrate somewhere else or just
> give Discourse a try. But please, very please, let's just stop
> complaining for the sake of doing so and without having even tried
> using the new tool.

But if we try it and don't like it, what then? I presume there is no
other option under the auspices of Gnome? There's no point in lying
down in front of the bulldozer?


P.

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 22:44 +0200, Andrea Veri wrote:
> And it seems I forgot both [1] and [2], there you go.
> 
> [1]
> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2022-August/msg4.html
> [2]
> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2022-September/msg00018.html
> 
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 10:43 PM Andrea Veri  wrote:
> 
> > Pete,
> > 
> > what you're saying is a honestly a bit unfair, lists decommission
> > has been
> > communicated multiple times over the past few months, see [1] and
> > [2], but

Those announcements were sent to several Gnome development lists, which
neither I nor (AFAIK) any of my fellow moderators subscribe to. We are
users, not developers. It would have been nice to have similar
announcements sent to those of us who actually deal with list
moderation and membership, or even directly to the list itself as
happened today. Instead, the first notice that any of us have had is
this declaration that there is deadline only 10 days away.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 19:10 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > 
> > I am a moderator of the Evolution list, and this is the first I've
> > heard of this. I think that 10 days notice of such a radical change
> > is
> > not reasonable. Most people here, including myself, will have no
> > idea
> > what this is about.
> 
> poc - as a moderator of the list, do you see the "major burden in
> managing lists spam".  It's not the first time I've seen something be
> shutdown with an excuse of "the spam, the spam, we can't cope". 
> Surely
> spam tagging is a mature process these days.

Spam moderation is not a big problem on this list, mainly (I think)
because it's a subscriber-only list and spam is almost always trapped
by the list manager, both by checking membership and by using a
Bayesian filter. Moderators get notice of anything held for approval
and deal with it via a web interface, but it usually amounts to at most
2 or 3 cases per day, so not a big deal.

(This, by the way, is how non-member posts get to the list; a moderator
has to approve them). 

There are currently 3 moderators: myself, Andre Klapper and Adam Tauno
Williams. Note that we have no control over the actual list hosting,
i.e. we are not list admins.

I imagine the spam problem might be greater on some other lists,
especially those that accept posts from non-members.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list]

Dnia 20.10.2022 o godz. 22:58:33 Andrea Veri pisze:
> category, you can send an email to the applicati...@discourse.gnome.org
> email and it gets automatically posted to Discourse, like you do today with
> Mailman. In the background we can configure an automatic tag, that is
> whenever the Evolution or Evo (or anything you prefer) word is mentioned
> (similar to what happens today with Mailman list name tag on subjects) the
> "evolution" tag is automatically added to your thread, that eases
> consumption by your contributors which have watchers defined for the
> "evolution" tag.

No, this is not analogous to Mailman, because from your description I
understand that a particular tag is somewhat like an equivalent of a mailing
list. Watching the tag "evolution" would be equivalent to subscribing to an
Evolution mailing list. But you cannot send a mail message directly to a
tag, to start a new thread. What you describe as "automatic tag" is at most
a poor workaround that automatically assigns a tag to a message, based on
presence of particular word(s) in the subject. However that's not how
mailing lists work and you know this. Messages are sent to a mailing list
not based on presence of particular text in the subject (that's only an
additional feature of Mailman, that does not have to be used), but based on
the fact that they are sent to a particular email address. This is an
absolutely critical feature that is lacking here - at least from your
description.

If there is a possibility to associate a separate email address with each
tag, then this could probably replace a mailing list.
-- 
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   r...@rafa.eu.org
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there
was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Greg Oliver via evolution-list]

On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 3:58 PM Andrea Veri  wrote:

> Greg,
>
> nobody is requiring you to use a web forum, the only time where you need
> to use it is the first time where you'd be configuring the tag you want to
> watch, in this case the evolution one. Once that has happened you'll get
> all the notifications sent via mail and you'll be able to respond directly
> from within your mail client like you do today, for anyone not familiar
> with the tagging process:
>
> Tagging means adding a tag to a specific thread that is created to make
> sure it can easily be filtered out and most importantly it can easily be
> configured as a watcher (i.e the process that allows you to receive an
> email when a new email / response has been added to a thread). Our
> Discourse instance already has a tag called "evolution", which can be used
> to tag a specific thread at creation time (or later on in the process) to
> make sure it gets properly filtered for contributors that are only
> interested in mc conversations. Each Discourse category comes with an email
> endpoint, let's say you want to create a new thread under the Applications
> category, you can send an email to the applicati...@discourse.gnome.org
> email and it gets automatically posted to Discourse, like you do today with
> Mailman. In the background we can configure an automatic tag, that is
> whenever the Evolution or Evo (or anything you prefer) word is mentioned
> (similar to what happens today with Mailman list name tag on subjects) the
> "evolution" tag is automatically added to your thread, that eases
> consumption by your contributors which have watchers defined for the
> "evolution" tag.
>
> I'm more than happy to work with you guys to ease this transition. But
> please keep in mind that nobody is forcing you to use a web forum,
> Discourse (NOT Discord) can also work as a plain mailing list (please see
> Andre's mail [1] around this), so don't be alarmed.
>

OK, so scripting something to add the existing mail list users to Discourse
should be fairly simple, so none of us are required to go sign up, etc
elsewhere right?  I am a good scripter and would be willing to help with
that, but if I am forced to go sign up on some other web site, I think I
would just ditch it all.  Just let me know.



> Thanks,
>
> [1]
> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2022-October/msg00144.html
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 10:51 PM Greg Oliver 
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 3:45 PM Andrea Veri  wrote:
>>
>>> And it seems I forgot both [1] and [2], there you go.
>>>
>>> [1]
>>> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2022-August/msg4.html
>>> [2]
>>> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2022-September/msg00018.html
>>>
>>
>> I have to agree with Pete - there were no notifications to this list
>> until {to|yester}day...  Also in agreement - I will no visit an web forum.
>> Been using Evo as far as I can remember running Linux - early 2k - hate to
>> drop this off my mailing lists..  I am on a huge amount of lists because
>> like it has been mentioned, they are easy to peruse..  Make me go to a web
>> page, which then has topics with sub-topics, etc and you will lose me (even
>> if I am unimportant to the project).
>>
>> -Greg
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 10:43 PM Andrea Veri  wrote:
>>>
 Pete,

 what you're saying is a honestly a bit unfair, lists decommission has
 been communicated multiple times over the past few months, see [1] and [2],
 but what's even more discouraging is seeing users on your list mentioning
 we're switching to *Discord*, or others not even understanding Discourse
 has the same mailing list workflow that you have today but has some sugar
 added on top for people who like web forums and other features Discourse
 provides. I'm not forcing you to remain, but I'd appreciate you trying to
 recreate your workflow in Discourse: that is totally possible and I can
 work with you and any other stakeholder to make sure that happens.

 There's a subset of lists (the l10n ones) which have requested an
 exception from October's deadline, we can surely offer that in case you
 want some more time in order to migrate somewhere else or just give
 Discourse a try. But please, very please, let's just stop complaining for
 the sake of doing so and without having even tried using the new tool.

 Thanks,

 On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 8:24 PM Pete Biggs  wrote:

> Andrea -
>
> I hope you are following the Evolution list.  You certainly haven't
> been "communicating" anything to the Evolution list about this until
> now and it is the first that most people know about it.
>
> It's really disappointing to see you close down a mailing list that has
> been active and useful for 20 years with just a few days notice. That's
> not really good "community engagement".
>
> It seems really bizarre that 

Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list]

Dnia 20.10.2022 o godz. 22:43:11 Andrea Veri pisze:
> But please, very please, let's just stop complaining for the sake of doing
> so and without having even tried using the new tool.

They say, "the better is an enemy of the good"...

Or in other words, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"...
-- 
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   r...@rafa.eu.org
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there
was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Andrea Veri]

Greg,

nobody is requiring you to use a web forum, the only time where you need to
use it is the first time where you'd be configuring the tag you want to
watch, in this case the evolution one. Once that has happened you'll get
all the notifications sent via mail and you'll be able to respond directly
from within your mail client like you do today, for anyone not familiar
with the tagging process:

Tagging means adding a tag to a specific thread that is created to make
sure it can easily be filtered out and most importantly it can easily be
configured as a watcher (i.e the process that allows you to receive an
email when a new email / response has been added to a thread). Our
Discourse instance already has a tag called "evolution", which can be used
to tag a specific thread at creation time (or later on in the process) to
make sure it gets properly filtered for contributors that are only
interested in mc conversations. Each Discourse category comes with an email
endpoint, let's say you want to create a new thread under the Applications
category, you can send an email to the applicati...@discourse.gnome.org
email and it gets automatically posted to Discourse, like you do today with
Mailman. In the background we can configure an automatic tag, that is
whenever the Evolution or Evo (or anything you prefer) word is mentioned
(similar to what happens today with Mailman list name tag on subjects) the
"evolution" tag is automatically added to your thread, that eases
consumption by your contributors which have watchers defined for the
"evolution" tag.

I'm more than happy to work with you guys to ease this transition. But
please keep in mind that nobody is forcing you to use a web forum,
Discourse (NOT Discord) can also work as a plain mailing list (please see
Andre's mail [1] around this), so don't be alarmed.

Thanks,

[1]
https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2022-October/msg00144.html


On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 10:51 PM Greg Oliver  wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 3:45 PM Andrea Veri  wrote:
>
>> And it seems I forgot both [1] and [2], there you go.
>>
>> [1]
>> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2022-August/msg4.html
>> [2]
>> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2022-September/msg00018.html
>>
>
> I have to agree with Pete - there were no notifications to this list until
> {to|yester}day...  Also in agreement - I will no visit an web forum.  Been
> using Evo as far as I can remember running Linux - early 2k - hate to drop
> this off my mailing lists..  I am on a huge amount of lists because like it
> has been mentioned, they are easy to peruse..  Make me go to a web page,
> which then has topics with sub-topics, etc and you will lose me (even if I
> am unimportant to the project).
>
> -Greg
>
>
>
>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 10:43 PM Andrea Veri  wrote:
>>
>>> Pete,
>>>
>>> what you're saying is a honestly a bit unfair, lists decommission has
>>> been communicated multiple times over the past few months, see [1] and [2],
>>> but what's even more discouraging is seeing users on your list mentioning
>>> we're switching to *Discord*, or others not even understanding Discourse
>>> has the same mailing list workflow that you have today but has some sugar
>>> added on top for people who like web forums and other features Discourse
>>> provides. I'm not forcing you to remain, but I'd appreciate you trying to
>>> recreate your workflow in Discourse: that is totally possible and I can
>>> work with you and any other stakeholder to make sure that happens.
>>>
>>> There's a subset of lists (the l10n ones) which have requested an
>>> exception from October's deadline, we can surely offer that in case you
>>> want some more time in order to migrate somewhere else or just give
>>> Discourse a try. But please, very please, let's just stop complaining for
>>> the sake of doing so and without having even tried using the new tool.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 8:24 PM Pete Biggs  wrote:
>>>
 Andrea -

 I hope you are following the Evolution list.  You certainly haven't
 been "communicating" anything to the Evolution list about this until
 now and it is the first that most people know about it.

 It's really disappointing to see you close down a mailing list that has
 been active and useful for 20 years with just a few days notice. That's
 not really good "community engagement".

 It seems really bizarre that you are getting rid of a mailing list for
 a mail client.

 I know the attitude will be "tough, they'll get over it", but it's not
 going to win over the hearts and minds of your constituency.

 Pete


 On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 13:09 +0200, Andrea Veri wrote:
 > Hi,
 >
 > As we have been communicating during the past few months GNOME's
 > Mailman platform is being decommissioned (python2 deprecation, major
 > burden in managing lists spam). The deadline is currently 

Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Andre Klapper via evolution-list]

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 13:23 -0500, Tim McConnell wrote:
> 
> "even if some Evo users willingly choose to use Redhat." durn
> Sadomasochists. 

Tim, this is uncalled for. Please take trolling somewhere else.

> But all joking aside, they're (GNOME) really end this list? Oh WTFF??
> I've been using this list since before Fedora came out and they can't
> just use Python3? Really?! Of all the options I do like moving the
> list
> to another place if GNOME is going to use Discord or even worse
> Reddit.

Did you read the text? It's not "Discord" but Discourse. The difference
could also be spotted by taking a look at it before sending a reply.

andre
-- 
Andre Klapper  |  ak...@gmx.net
https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Greg Oliver via evolution-list]

On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 3:45 PM Andrea Veri  wrote:

> And it seems I forgot both [1] and [2], there you go.
>
> [1]
> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2022-August/msg4.html
> [2]
> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2022-September/msg00018.html
>

I have to agree with Pete - there were no notifications to this list until
{to|yester}day...  Also in agreement - I will no visit an web forum.  Been
using Evo as far as I can remember running Linux - early 2k - hate to drop
this off my mailing lists..  I am on a huge amount of lists because like it
has been mentioned, they are easy to peruse..  Make me go to a web page,
which then has topics with sub-topics, etc and you will lose me (even if I
am unimportant to the project).

-Greg



> On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 10:43 PM Andrea Veri  wrote:
>
>> Pete,
>>
>> what you're saying is a honestly a bit unfair, lists decommission has
>> been communicated multiple times over the past few months, see [1] and [2],
>> but what's even more discouraging is seeing users on your list mentioning
>> we're switching to *Discord*, or others not even understanding Discourse
>> has the same mailing list workflow that you have today but has some sugar
>> added on top for people who like web forums and other features Discourse
>> provides. I'm not forcing you to remain, but I'd appreciate you trying to
>> recreate your workflow in Discourse: that is totally possible and I can
>> work with you and any other stakeholder to make sure that happens.
>>
>> There's a subset of lists (the l10n ones) which have requested an
>> exception from October's deadline, we can surely offer that in case you
>> want some more time in order to migrate somewhere else or just give
>> Discourse a try. But please, very please, let's just stop complaining for
>> the sake of doing so and without having even tried using the new tool.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 8:24 PM Pete Biggs  wrote:
>>
>>> Andrea -
>>>
>>> I hope you are following the Evolution list.  You certainly haven't
>>> been "communicating" anything to the Evolution list about this until
>>> now and it is the first that most people know about it.
>>>
>>> It's really disappointing to see you close down a mailing list that has
>>> been active and useful for 20 years with just a few days notice. That's
>>> not really good "community engagement".
>>>
>>> It seems really bizarre that you are getting rid of a mailing list for
>>> a mail client.
>>>
>>> I know the attitude will be "tough, they'll get over it", but it's not
>>> going to win over the hearts and minds of your constituency.
>>>
>>> Pete
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 13:09 +0200, Andrea Veri wrote:
>>> > Hi,
>>> >
>>> > As we have been communicating during the past few months GNOME's
>>> > Mailman platform is being decommissioned (python2 deprecation, major
>>> > burden in managing lists spam). The deadline is currently set to the
>>> > end of October 2022. Mailing list subscribers are invited to migrate
>>> > to GNOME's Discourse instance [1]. Neil made sure [2] to create a set
>>> > of tags you can re-use to initiate a new topic in the new platform,
>>> > if a tag is missing please reach out to me directly.
>>> >
>>> > Jehan (from the GIMP Team) kindly provided some instructions you can
>>> > follow [3] in order to safely migrate your reading workflow to
>>> > Discourse. The new platform supports several login methods including
>>> > your GNOME Account and other major OpenID providers.
>>> >
>>> > After the deadline of the end of October Mailman archives will remain
>>> > alive in read only mode for posterity. If the mailing list was used
>>> > behind an alias, please let me know so we can re-do the same setup
>>> > but on Discourse instead.
>>> >
>>> > Thanks,
>>> >
>>> > P.S All the l10n lists are still pending code changes in damned-lies,
>>> > the deadline to decommission those lists may slip by a week or two
>>> > depending how soon those changes will be made available in DL
>>> > codebase
>>> >
>>> > [1] https://discourse.gnome.org
>>> > [2]
>>> > https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2022-September/msg
>>> > 00018.html
>>> > [3]
>>> > https://discourse.gnome.org/t/welcome-to-gimp-forum-on-gnome-discours
>>> > e/11534/5
>>> >
>>> > ___
>>> > evolution-list mailing list
>>> > evolution-list@gnome.org
>>> > To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ...
>>> > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>> Andrea
>>
>> Principal Systems Engineer at Red Hat,
>> GNOME Infrastructure Team Coordinator,
>> Former GNOME Foundation Board of Directors Secretary,
>> GNOME Foundation Membership & Elections Committee Chairman
>>
>> Homepage: https://www.dragonsreach.it
>>
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Andrea
>
> Principal Systems Engineer at Red Hat,
> GNOME Infrastructure Team Coordinator,
> Former GNOME Foundation Board of Directors Secretary,
> GNOME 

Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Andrea Veri]

And it seems I forgot both [1] and [2], there you go.

[1]
https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2022-August/msg4.html
[2]
https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2022-September/msg00018.html

On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 10:43 PM Andrea Veri  wrote:

> Pete,
>
> what you're saying is a honestly a bit unfair, lists decommission has been
> communicated multiple times over the past few months, see [1] and [2], but
> what's even more discouraging is seeing users on your list mentioning we're
> switching to *Discord*, or others not even understanding Discourse has the
> same mailing list workflow that you have today but has some sugar added on
> top for people who like web forums and other features Discourse provides.
> I'm not forcing you to remain, but I'd appreciate you trying to
> recreate your workflow in Discourse: that is totally possible and I can
> work with you and any other stakeholder to make sure that happens.
>
> There's a subset of lists (the l10n ones) which have requested an
> exception from October's deadline, we can surely offer that in case you
> want some more time in order to migrate somewhere else or just give
> Discourse a try. But please, very please, let's just stop complaining for
> the sake of doing so and without having even tried using the new tool.
>
> Thanks,
>
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 8:24 PM Pete Biggs  wrote:
>
>> Andrea -
>>
>> I hope you are following the Evolution list.  You certainly haven't
>> been "communicating" anything to the Evolution list about this until
>> now and it is the first that most people know about it.
>>
>> It's really disappointing to see you close down a mailing list that has
>> been active and useful for 20 years with just a few days notice. That's
>> not really good "community engagement".
>>
>> It seems really bizarre that you are getting rid of a mailing list for
>> a mail client.
>>
>> I know the attitude will be "tough, they'll get over it", but it's not
>> going to win over the hearts and minds of your constituency.
>>
>> Pete
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 13:09 +0200, Andrea Veri wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > As we have been communicating during the past few months GNOME's
>> > Mailman platform is being decommissioned (python2 deprecation, major
>> > burden in managing lists spam). The deadline is currently set to the
>> > end of October 2022. Mailing list subscribers are invited to migrate
>> > to GNOME's Discourse instance [1]. Neil made sure [2] to create a set
>> > of tags you can re-use to initiate a new topic in the new platform,
>> > if a tag is missing please reach out to me directly.
>> >
>> > Jehan (from the GIMP Team) kindly provided some instructions you can
>> > follow [3] in order to safely migrate your reading workflow to
>> > Discourse. The new platform supports several login methods including
>> > your GNOME Account and other major OpenID providers.
>> >
>> > After the deadline of the end of October Mailman archives will remain
>> > alive in read only mode for posterity. If the mailing list was used
>> > behind an alias, please let me know so we can re-do the same setup
>> > but on Discourse instead.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > P.S All the l10n lists are still pending code changes in damned-lies,
>> > the deadline to decommission those lists may slip by a week or two
>> > depending how soon those changes will be made available in DL
>> > codebase
>> >
>> > [1] https://discourse.gnome.org
>> > [2]
>> > https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2022-September/msg
>> > 00018.html
>> > [3]
>> > https://discourse.gnome.org/t/welcome-to-gimp-forum-on-gnome-discours
>> > e/11534/5
>> >
>> > ___
>> > evolution-list mailing list
>> > evolution-list@gnome.org
>> > To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ...
>> > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
>>
>>
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Andrea
>
> Principal Systems Engineer at Red Hat,
> GNOME Infrastructure Team Coordinator,
> Former GNOME Foundation Board of Directors Secretary,
> GNOME Foundation Membership & Elections Committee Chairman
>
> Homepage: https://www.dragonsreach.it
>


-- 
Cheers,
Andrea

Principal Systems Engineer at Red Hat,
GNOME Infrastructure Team Coordinator,
Former GNOME Foundation Board of Directors Secretary,
GNOME Foundation Membership & Elections Committee Chairman

Homepage: https://www.dragonsreach.it
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Andrea Veri]

Pete,

what you're saying is a honestly a bit unfair, lists decommission has been
communicated multiple times over the past few months, see [1] and [2], but
what's even more discouraging is seeing users on your list mentioning we're
switching to *Discord*, or others not even understanding Discourse has the
same mailing list workflow that you have today but has some sugar added on
top for people who like web forums and other features Discourse provides.
I'm not forcing you to remain, but I'd appreciate you trying to
recreate your workflow in Discourse: that is totally possible and I can
work with you and any other stakeholder to make sure that happens.

There's a subset of lists (the l10n ones) which have requested an exception
from October's deadline, we can surely offer that in case you want some
more time in order to migrate somewhere else or just give Discourse a try.
But please, very please, let's just stop complaining for the sake of doing
so and without having even tried using the new tool.

Thanks,

On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 8:24 PM Pete Biggs  wrote:

> Andrea -
>
> I hope you are following the Evolution list.  You certainly haven't
> been "communicating" anything to the Evolution list about this until
> now and it is the first that most people know about it.
>
> It's really disappointing to see you close down a mailing list that has
> been active and useful for 20 years with just a few days notice. That's
> not really good "community engagement".
>
> It seems really bizarre that you are getting rid of a mailing list for
> a mail client.
>
> I know the attitude will be "tough, they'll get over it", but it's not
> going to win over the hearts and minds of your constituency.
>
> Pete
>
>
> On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 13:09 +0200, Andrea Veri wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > As we have been communicating during the past few months GNOME's
> > Mailman platform is being decommissioned (python2 deprecation, major
> > burden in managing lists spam). The deadline is currently set to the
> > end of October 2022. Mailing list subscribers are invited to migrate
> > to GNOME's Discourse instance [1]. Neil made sure [2] to create a set
> > of tags you can re-use to initiate a new topic in the new platform,
> > if a tag is missing please reach out to me directly.
> >
> > Jehan (from the GIMP Team) kindly provided some instructions you can
> > follow [3] in order to safely migrate your reading workflow to
> > Discourse. The new platform supports several login methods including
> > your GNOME Account and other major OpenID providers.
> >
> > After the deadline of the end of October Mailman archives will remain
> > alive in read only mode for posterity. If the mailing list was used
> > behind an alias, please let me know so we can re-do the same setup
> > but on Discourse instead.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > P.S All the l10n lists are still pending code changes in damned-lies,
> > the deadline to decommission those lists may slip by a week or two
> > depending how soon those changes will be made available in DL
> > codebase
> >
> > [1] https://discourse.gnome.org
> > [2]
> > https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2022-September/msg
> > 00018.html
> > [3]
> > https://discourse.gnome.org/t/welcome-to-gimp-forum-on-gnome-discours
> > e/11534/5
> >
> > ___
> > evolution-list mailing list
> > evolution-list@gnome.org
> > To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ...
> > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
>
>

-- 
Cheers,
Andrea

Principal Systems Engineer at Red Hat,
GNOME Infrastructure Team Coordinator,
Former GNOME Foundation Board of Directors Secretary,
GNOME Foundation Membership & Elections Committee Chairman

Homepage: https://www.dragonsreach.it
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Dan Kortschak via evolution-list]

What a short-sighted decision.

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 13:09 +0200, Andrea Veri wrote:
> Mailing list subscribers are invited to migrate to GNOME's Discourse
> instance [1].

Discourse is an awful way to deal with thing long-term discussions
which are often a feature of things here.

This is very disappointing.

Dan

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Tim McConnell via evolution-list]

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 12:27 -0400, Jim Popovitch via evolution-list
wrote:
> On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 16:40 +0200, Torsten Krah via evolution-list
> wrote:
> > Am Donnerstag, dem 20.10.2022 um 13:01 +0100 schrieb Patrick
> > O'Callaghan:
> > > I am a moderator of the Evolution list, and this is the first
> > > I've
> > > 
> > > heard of this.
> > 
> > Me too and if you have a look at the top level site:
> > 
> > https://mail.gnome.org/
> > 
> > There is no sign that they are going to retire this at all (if I am
> > not
> > mistaken and missed it).
> 
> Further to that point, down at the bottom of that page is a link for
> "Who should I contact if I have a problem with any of the mailing
> lists?" which is a dead link to
> https://wiki.gnome.org/Sysadmin/MailingLists
> 
> So maybe the writing was on the wall for a while now.
> 
> I could host a new mailing list for evolution users, but I wonder if
> something like evolution-us...@lists.debian.org would be a better
> place
> even if some Evo users willingly choose to use Redhat. :P
> 
> -Jim P.
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> evolution-list@gnome.org
> To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ...
> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list

"even if some Evo users willingly choose to use Redhat." durn
Sadomasochists. 
But all joking aside, they're (GNOME) really end this list? Oh WTFF??
I've been using this list since before Fedora came out and they can't
just use Python3? Really?! Of all the options I do like moving the list
to another place if GNOME is going to use Discord or even worse Reddit.
IIRC channels I never use to be honest (I loathe chat programs). So if
Debian is willing to let you use them as a mailing list then please
move there. Don't let this list die. PLEASE!! 
-- 
Tim McConnell 
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> I am a moderator of the Evolution list, and this is the first I've
> heard of this. I think that 10 days notice of such a radical change is
> not reasonable. Most people here, including myself, will have no idea
> what this is about.

poc - as a moderator of the list, do you see the "major burden in
managing lists spam".  It's not the first time I've seen something be
shutdown with an excuse of "the spam, the spam, we can't cope".  Surely
spam tagging is a mature process these days.


P.

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Andre Klapper via evolution-list]

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 12:47 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> 
> 
> If this is real, then the "communicating" has been sadly lacking. This
> is the first I've heard of it.

Just for the records, mailing list resources (as linking to the related
threads on Discourse would probably be a bit too ironic):

* Announcement: 
https://mail.gnome.org/archives/devel-announce-list/2022-August/msg3.html
* Previous thread: 
https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2020-September/msg00018.html

Yes, I do know these aren't lists to which everyone not more involved
in GNOME would necessarily be subscribed.

Cheers,
andre
-- 
Andre Klapper  |  ak...@gmx.net
https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Andre Klapper via evolution-list]

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 12:27 -0400, Jim Popovitch wrote:
> > https://mail.gnome.org/
> > 
> > There is no sign that they are going to retire this at all (if I am
> > not
> > mistaken and missed it).
> 
> Further to that point, down at the bottom of that page is a link for
> "Who should I contact if I have a problem with any of the mailing
> lists?" which is a dead link to
> https://wiki.gnome.org/Sysadmin/MailingLists

That should link to
https://wiki.gnome.org/Infrastructure/MailingLists resp
https://wiki.gnome.org/Infrastructure/Contact
(not sure I want to spend time to patch that, though...).

Cheers,
andre
-- 
Andre Klapper  |  ak...@gmx.net
https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Jim Popovitch via evolution-list]

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 12:27 -0400, Jim Popovitch via evolution-list
wrote:
> On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 16:40 +0200, Torsten Krah via evolution-list
> wrote:
> > Am Donnerstag, dem 20.10.2022 um 13:01 +0100 schrieb Patrick
> > O'Callaghan:
> > > I am a moderator of the Evolution list, and this is the first I've
> > > 
> > > heard of this.
> > 
> > Me too and if you have a look at the top level site:
> > 
> > https://mail.gnome.org/
> > 
> > There is no sign that they are going to retire this at all (if I am not
> > mistaken and missed it).
> 
> Further to that point, down at the bottom of that page is a link for
> "Who should I contact if I have a problem with any of the mailing
> lists?" which is a dead link to
> https://wiki.gnome.org/Sysadmin/MailingLists
> 
> So maybe the writing was on the wall for a while now.
> 
> I could host a new mailing list for evolution users, but I wonder if
> something like evolution-us...@lists.debian.org would be a better place
> even if some Evo users willingly choose to use Redhat. :P
> 

Just realized my above email was sent via a personal account because
that's what I used when signing up here.   I run domainmail.org, a free
virtual domain mailing list service for those that need such a thing,
one list in particular is SDLU which is specific to spam fighting (which
seems to be a problem for gnome.org). If someone at Gnome wants to shoot
me an email, I could easily and freely host mail.gnome.org for them on
Mailman v2.x.  The smooth process would be a few DNS changes and a rsync
of the current lists archive+settings to my system.

-Jim P.


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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Matt Connell]

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 12:47 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> If this is real, then the "communicating" has been sadly lacking. This
> is the first I've heard of it.
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, but I find "Forum" type things, which I believe is what
> Discourse is, not at all intuitive and I hate dealing with them. Is
> there to be no way of contributing sensibly using email - yes, I've
> read the post from "Jehan" - it looks like it's a distinct kludge to
> interact with it via email.

I echo what Pete has to say here.

I, for one, will not be using a Discourse forum.  The entire appeal of
a mailing list is the ability to digest and handle messages as I
please, not to fiddle around in a web page trying to find what I'm
looking for.

Ten days notice when even the mailing list moderator is unaware is not
in any way reasonable.  It is a clear sign that this issue has not,
despite assertions to the contrary, been discussed properly.
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Jim Popovitch via evolution-list]

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 16:40 +0200, Torsten Krah via evolution-list
wrote:
> Am Donnerstag, dem 20.10.2022 um 13:01 +0100 schrieb Patrick
> O'Callaghan:
> > I am a moderator of the Evolution list, and this is the first I've
> > 
> > heard of this.
> 
> Me too and if you have a look at the top level site:
> 
> https://mail.gnome.org/
> 
> There is no sign that they are going to retire this at all (if I am not
> mistaken and missed it).

Further to that point, down at the bottom of that page is a link for
"Who should I contact if I have a problem with any of the mailing
lists?" which is a dead link to
https://wiki.gnome.org/Sysadmin/MailingLists

So maybe the writing was on the wall for a while now.

I could host a new mailing list for evolution users, but I wonder if
something like evolution-us...@lists.debian.org would be a better place
even if some Evo users willingly choose to use Redhat. :P

-Jim P.



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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Torsten Krah via evolution-list]

Am Donnerstag, dem 20.10.2022 um 13:01 +0100 schrieb Patrick
O'Callaghan:
> I am a moderator of the Evolution list, and this is the first I've
> 
> heard of this.

Me too and if you have a look at the top level site:

https://mail.gnome.org/

There is no sign that they are going to retire this at all (if I am not
mistaken and missed it).

kind regards

Torsten

-- 


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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[George N. Reeke]

>  This unrequested change makes me sceptical about the
> > 
> > community's future.
> 
> Second that - discourse is not my cup of tea - I hope there will be
> an
> alternative list eventually.
> 
Adding my negs on discourse and support for a new email venue
in case it might help.
George Reeke
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Milan Crha via evolution-list]

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 13:01 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> If there is a well-supported mailing list alternative, I will use
> that.

Hi,
I cannot speak of the "well-supported" side of the thing, I only know
of two public places.

One is:
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/
it's a place where SyncEvolution project moved to semi-recently.

The other one is:
http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/
that's what libical uses for a long time.

How to get onboard on either of the two I do not know. I've basically
no idea about their internals, I only know they exist. There might be
also other alternatives, of course.

The main downside is that it'll not be @gnome.org anymore, thus, maybe,
harder to find for the users.
Bye,
Milan

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Torsten Krah via evolution-list]

Am Donnerstag, dem 20.10.2022 um 13:01 +0100 schrieb Patrick
O'Callaghan:
>  This unrequested change makes me sceptical about the
> 
> community's future.

Second that - discourse is not my cup of tea - I hope there will be an
alternative list eventually.

-- 


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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 12:47 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> If this is real, then the "communicating" has been sadly lacking.
> This is the first I've heard of it.

I've been seeing these communications on other lists for quite some
time.

> 20 years of helping the Evolution community and it looks like it's
> the end.

Yep, same.  Discourse is a dreadful user experience.  I've tried
replying, I believe I ended up blocked for some reason.  I gave up.

It's Internet 3.0 or something,  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

-- 
Adam Tauno Williams  GPG D95ED383
Systems Administrator, Python Developer, LPI / NCLA

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 13:09 +0200, Andrea Veri wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> As we have been communicating during the past few months GNOME's
> Mailman
> platform is being decommissioned (python2 deprecation, major burden
> in
> managing lists spam). The deadline is currently set to the end of
> October
> 2022. Mailing list subscribers are invited to migrate to GNOME's
> Discourse
> instance [1]. Neil made sure [2] to create a set of tags you can re-
> use to
> initiate a new topic in the new platform, if a tag is missing please
> reach
> out to me directly.
> 
> Jehan (from the GIMP Team) kindly provided some instructions you can
> follow
> [3] in order to safely migrate your reading workflow to Discourse.
> The new
> platform supports several login methods including your GNOME Account
> and
> other major OpenID providers.
> 
> After the deadline of the end of October Mailman archives will remain
> alive
> in read only mode for posterity. If the mailing list was used behind
> an
> alias, please let me know so we can re-do the same setup but on
> Discourse
> instead.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> P.S All the l10n lists are still pending code changes in damned-lies,
> the
> deadline to decommission those lists may slip by a week or two
> depending
> how soon those changes will be made available in DL codebase
> 
> [1] https://discourse.gnome.org
> [2]
> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2022-September/msg00018.html
> [3]
> https://discourse.gnome.org/t/welcome-to-gimp-forum-on-gnome-discourse/11534/5

I am a moderator of the Evolution list, and this is the first I've
heard of this. I think that 10 days notice of such a radical change is
not reasonable. Most people here, including myself, will have no idea
what this is about.

Personally, I detest web forums. If there is a well-supported mailing
list alternative, I will use that. However the link referenced above
look very much like a kludge and I doubt I'll be able to help list
users who may have problems with it, if in fact there is even a
continuing "moderator" role in this new system.

The Evolution list has been a useful resource for its user community
for many years. This unrequested change makes me sceptical about the
community's future. I hope I'm wrong.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> As we have been communicating during the past few months GNOME's
> Mailman platform is being decommissioned (python2 deprecation, major
> burden in managing lists spam). The deadline is currently set to the
> end of October 2022. Mailing list subscribers are invited to migrate
> to GNOME's Discourse instance [1]. Neil made sure [2] to create a set
> of tags you can re-use to initiate a new topic in the new platform,
> if a tag is missing please reach out to me directly.

If this is real, then the "communicating" has been sadly lacking. This
is the first I've heard of it.


I'm sorry, but I find "Forum" type things, which I believe is what
Discourse is, not at all intuitive and I hate dealing with them. Is
there to be no way of contributing sensibly using email - yes, I've
read the post from "Jehan" - it looks like it's a distinct kludge to
interact with it via email.

20 years of helping the Evolution community and it looks like it's the
end.

P.

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[Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Andrea Veri]

Hi,

As we have been communicating during the past few months GNOME's Mailman
platform is being decommissioned (python2 deprecation, major burden in
managing lists spam). The deadline is currently set to the end of October
2022. Mailing list subscribers are invited to migrate to GNOME's Discourse
instance [1]. Neil made sure [2] to create a set of tags you can re-use to
initiate a new topic in the new platform, if a tag is missing please reach
out to me directly.

Jehan (from the GIMP Team) kindly provided some instructions you can follow
[3] in order to safely migrate your reading workflow to Discourse. The new
platform supports several login methods including your GNOME Account and
other major OpenID providers.

After the deadline of the end of October Mailman archives will remain alive
in read only mode for posterity. If the mailing list was used behind an
alias, please let me know so we can re-do the same setup but on Discourse
instead.

Thanks,

P.S All the l10n lists are still pending code changes in damned-lies, the
deadline to decommission those lists may slip by a week or two depending
how soon those changes will be made available in DL codebase

[1] https://discourse.gnome.org
[2]
https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2022-September/msg00018.html
[3]
https://discourse.gnome.org/t/welcome-to-gimp-forum-on-gnome-discourse/11534/5

-- 
Cheers,
Andrea

Principal Systems Engineer at Red Hat,
GNOME Infrastructure Team Coordinator,
Former GNOME Foundation Board of Directors Secretary,
GNOME Foundation Membership & Elections Committee Chairman

Homepage: https://www.dragonsreach.it
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