Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2022-08-18 at 10:33 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> On Thu, 2022-08-18 at 04:10 +0200, Ángel wrote:
> > On 2022-08-16 at 23:24 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > > Spam filtering is under the control of the receiver. It's trivial
> > > to
> > > tell Gmail that a message is not spam, and it will learn that for
> > > future reference. You might also look at *why* your mail is being
> > > classified as spam. Could it be that some people have marked it
> > > as
> > > such?
> > 
> > Actually, I would consider this a weak point of gmail. As a
> > receiver,
> > you don't know why a message is considered spam (compare that with
> > a
> > system like SpamAssassin, where you can view the scoring of the
> > different modules), and even Google itself would often be unable to
> > determine why the ML engine considered it bad.
> 
> This is getting way of topic, but ...
> 
> My work uses Microsoft O365.  We have similar issues with bad spam
> filtering at times, including it binning internal mailing list mails.
> The mail admins have tried to get some insight into the spam
> classification process so that we can get some idea how to avoid it,
> but MS won't talk about it because it's proprietary confidential
> information. At first glance that's a "typical big brother" attitude,
> but they say that if the spam classification algorithms are known,
> spammers will just craft emails to get around them, which I can
> understand.  I wonder if Gmail has the same sort of thinking on it.
> 
> BTW, we think the reason the mailing list mails were being spam
> binned
> was because we have a very very large userbase (big university, lots
> of
> staff and students), with some compulsory lists for communication.
> All
> it takes is for people to blindly click on "I don't want to see this
> sort of mail any more" thinking it gets them off the list, whereas it
> just increases the spam score and eventually - actually quickly -
> gets
> our mailing list servers globally sunk.

We once had our entire university blacklisted because someone (a
student I think) had spammed some list somewhere. This was years ago
(before we started using G Suite) but it took a deal of effort to have
it corrected.

There is no magic bullet for dealing with spam.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Pete Biggs]

On Thu, 2022-08-18 at 04:10 +0200, Ángel wrote:
> On 2022-08-16 at 23:24 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > Spam filtering is under the control of the receiver. It's trivial to
> > tell Gmail that a message is not spam, and it will learn that for
> > future reference. You might also look at *why* your mail is being
> > classified as spam. Could it be that some people have marked it as
> > such?
> 
> Actually, I would consider this a weak point of gmail. As a receiver,
> you don't know why a message is considered spam (compare that with a
> system like SpamAssassin, where you can view the scoring of the
> different modules), and even Google itself would often be unable to
> determine why the ML engine considered it bad.

This is getting way of topic, but ...

My work uses Microsoft O365.  We have similar issues with bad spam
filtering at times, including it binning internal mailing list mails.
The mail admins have tried to get some insight into the spam
classification process so that we can get some idea how to avoid it,
but MS won't talk about it because it's proprietary confidential
information. At first glance that's a "typical big brother" attitude,
but they say that if the spam classification algorithms are known,
spammers will just craft emails to get around them, which I can
understand.  I wonder if Gmail has the same sort of thinking on it.

BTW, we think the reason the mailing list mails were being spam binned
was because we have a very very large userbase (big university, lots of
staff and students), with some compulsory lists for communication. All
it takes is for people to blindly click on "I don't want to see this
sort of mail any more" thinking it gets them off the list, whereas it
just increases the spam score and eventually - actually quickly - gets
our mailing list servers globally sunk.

P.




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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Ángel]

On 2022-08-16 at 23:24 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> Spam filtering is under the control of the receiver. It's trivial to
> tell Gmail that a message is not spam, and it will learn that for
> future reference. You might also look at *why* your mail is being
> classified as spam. Could it be that some people have marked it as
> such?

Actually, I would consider this a weak point of gmail. As a receiver,
you don't know why a message is considered spam (compare that with a
system like SpamAssassin, where you can view the scoring of the
different modules), and even Google itself would often be unable to
determine why the ML engine considered it bad.

Sometimes Gmail provides some reasons, like "This message is similar to
other spam messages", but (a) They are generic explanations, not always
matching the underlying one and (b) They can be completely false (such
as claiming as similar a message that is completely unique). Which is
not to deny that it is a powerful spam filter.

Finally, you have the option to create filters that exclude messages
from being marked as spam. However, I have seen accounts with a
wildcard "do not mark as spam" rule, with messages getting classified
as spam (they _were_ spam, but still…) so, at least in the past, Gmail
was overriding the filters in some cases, so it was not really "under
the control of the receiver".


Regards


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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Ángel]

On 2022-08-16 at 12:30 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote:
> Dnia 16.08.2022 o godz. 12:22:55 Andre Klapper pisze:
> > On Tue, 2022-08-16 at 12:19 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote:
> > > There is one more valid reason to use POP: if you have a main mail account
> > > (A) and a secondary one (B), and you want to have all messages from 
> > > account
> > > B forwarded to account A, but account B doesn't allow to configure
> > > forwarding.
> > 
> > That resembles http://www.xkcd.com/1172/
> 
> You may laugh, but many people actually do use this.
> 
> This is even recommended by some "deliverability specialists" as a better(!)
> alternative to forwarding (especially to Gmail), because forwarding breaks
> SPF (or SPF breaks forwarding - it depends how do you view that issue) and
> sending a lot of messages with failed SPF may decrease the reputation of the
> sending server on the receiving end.

Well, even if you are able to forward account B to gmail account A,
Google may decide to reject a portion of those at SMTP time, so the
"solution" is to point account A to *also* fetch the emails from B
through POP, so they end up downloaded in that other way.
Corporate version does have an option to trust a sender MTA as part of
your organization (at the org level, I think), but normal users have to
use this kind of duct tape. 

For extra fun: Gmail will also perform "SPF checks" on those POP-
downloaded mails and decide on whether they are spam or not based on
the (sometimes quite wrong) IP addresses it guesses…


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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2022-08-17 at 00:52 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list
wrote:
> Dnia 16.08.2022 o godz. 23:24:37 Patrick O'Callaghan pisze:
> > 
> > Spam filtering is under the control of the receiver. It's trivial
> > to
> > tell Gmail that a message is not spam, and it will learn that for
> > future reference.
> 
> It does not. Myself I have two test accounts on Gmail, I send myself
> mail
> from time to time to these accounts, mark it as non-spam, yet next
> messages
> are again going to spam.
> 
> > You might also look at *why* your mail is being
> > classified as spam. Could it be that some people have marked it as
> > such?
> 
> All this has been already tried and discussed countless times. I have
> written a lot about this on "mailop" mailing list. It is going on for
> more
> that two years now. I don't want to start this discussion again here,
> as it
> is just pointless

I agree. There's clearly a complex situation here and I don't pretend
to understand it.

> > The number of false positives I've had is so small that I actually
> > never bother to check my spam folder any more as there's no point.
> 
> And that's the problem for people like me who get "punished" for
> don't-know-what by Google - people like you, who believe that "Google
> just
> can't be wrong", so there's no sense in checking the spam folder.

I didn't (and don't) say that Google can't be wrong. Clearly it's using
heuristics for spam filtering, and heuristics are never perfect. What I
do say is that *in my experience* it's not worth checking the spam
folder because *for me* it actually does work very well. IOW the
probability of a false positive is so low that I have decided that it's
not worth the effort.

It's perhaps worth remembering that email is "unreliable" (in the sense
that it's not guaranteed to be reliable). We often forget this because
in practice it actually is very reliable. Until it isn't. Checking or
not checking a spam folder should be seen in that context.

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list]

Dnia 16.08.2022 o godz. 23:24:37 Patrick O'Callaghan pisze:
> 
> Spam filtering is under the control of the receiver. It's trivial to
> tell Gmail that a message is not spam, and it will learn that for
> future reference.

It does not. Myself I have two test accounts on Gmail, I send myself mail
from time to time to these accounts, mark it as non-spam, yet next messages
are again going to spam.

> You might also look at *why* your mail is being
> classified as spam. Could it be that some people have marked it as
> such?

All this has been already tried and discussed countless times. I have
written a lot about this on "mailop" mailing list. It is going on for more
that two years now. I don't want to start this discussion again here, as it
is just pointless. Believe me, I have tried everything that was possible. 
I even managed to contact some guy from Google via that list, who - although
not directly (if he admitted that directly, he'd probably been fired) -
confirmed that it just works so and they can't do anything about it.

Also when I described my problem, several other people wrote that they're
experiencing exactly the same.

It's a domain reputation thing. The main issue is they don't take into
account that "eu.org" is a public domain like ".com" or ".net" and anybody
can register their domain under *.eu.org. They just consider the whole
"eu.org" to be one domain, so if there are any spams from any *.eu.org
domain, it counts towards the whole "eu.org" domain. This is nonsense as
this is exactly the same as if a few spamming *.com domains damaged the
reputation of any other *.com domain - but it's just how Google works and
they don't plan to change it.

The only thing that works for me is sending from another domain. And I do it
sometimes if I want to be sure my mail gets delivered to Google. But this is
actually like admitting defeat in fight with this moloch that Google is. My
original mail address has become unusable with regard to sending to Google -
I have to use another one.

> The number of false positives I've had is so small that I actually
> never bother to check my spam folder any more as there's no point.

And that's the problem for people like me who get "punished" for
don't-know-what by Google - people like you, who believe that "Google just
can't be wrong", so there's no sense in checking the spam folder. Yes, it
*can* be wrong, yes, it *is* wrong so many times that the number *is*
significant for some senders. Or for some recipients, as my other example
with the organization's account shows. How do you explain that mail from
random Google accounts, send first time to our organization's account (also
at Gmail), land with ca. 50% probability in spam? Here at least actually I'm
in control and I can just regularly check the spam folder for messages that
shouldn't be there (and I do). With sending, I have no option other than
use a different email address.
-- 
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   r...@rafa.eu.org
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there
was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2022-08-16 at 23:45 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list
wrote:
> Dnia 16.08.2022 o godz. 22:37:23 Patrick O'Callaghan pisze:
> > And the free version of Gmail has by far the best spam filtering
> > I've
> > come across. In fact I don't even bother with Bogofilter or
> > Spamassassin any more.
> 
> Well, it's "too good". All mails from my address usually go to spam
> at
> Gmail, no matter what I try. I also manage some organization's mail
> account
> that is hosted on Gmail (free) and it happens regularly on that
> account that
> mails with questions from people who want to get involved with the
> organization land in spam folder. They even often are mails from
> other Gmail
> addresses!
> 
> I am sick of Gmail because of this.

Spam filtering is under the control of the receiver. It's trivial to
tell Gmail that a message is not spam, and it will learn that for
future reference. You might also look at *why* your mail is being
classified as spam. Could it be that some people have marked it as
such?

The number of false positives I've had is so small that I actually
never bother to check my spam folder any more as there's no point.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list]

Dnia 16.08.2022 o godz. 22:37:23 Patrick O'Callaghan pisze:
> And the free version of Gmail has by far the best spam filtering I've
> come across. In fact I don't even bother with Bogofilter or
> Spamassassin any more.

Well, it's "too good". All mails from my address usually go to spam at
Gmail, no matter what I try. I also manage some organization's mail account
that is hosted on Gmail (free) and it happens regularly on that account that
mails with questions from people who want to get involved with the
organization land in spam folder. They even often are mails from other Gmail
addresses!

I am sick of Gmail because of this.
-- 
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   r...@rafa.eu.org
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there
was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2022-08-16 at 17:29 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list
wrote:
> On Tue, 2022-08-16 at 11:12 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > We've been over this before. There's nothing stopping you from
> > syncing
> > your IMAP account to your local machine. There is *NO* advantage to
> > using POP, and a number of disadvantages. The only reason to ever
> > use
> > it is if your mail provider doesn't support IMAP.
> 
> Hi,
> 
> my bad, I haven't read the whole thread.
> 
> I've got different "local" machines with different operating systems.
> Offline-IMAP can be a PITA and might be more or less impossible on
> some
> machines. Setting up a POP account is straightforward for power users
> as
> well as noobs. If only one MUA deletes the POP mails from the server,
> after n days, the mails are similar accessible by different MUAs as
> IMPA
> mails are, but without all the offline IMAP issues, such as
> duplicated
> emails. And as already pointed out by my riseup.net link, quota is an
> issue, maybe not for spoiled people, but for all those watching every
> penny.
> 
> Much likely we will easily find more "exceptional cases", such as the
> one mentioned by Jaroslaw Rafa. However, all of us are aware of
> common
> pitfalls of IMAP as well as POP. Why don't I see this or that folder?
> Spam filtering on the server vs on the machine, both has got pros and
> cons.
> 
> I will not convince anybody that POP is better than IMAP. The only
> point
> I make is that POP can be better than IMAP for some users under some
> circumstances.
> 

I agree that people's needs may be different.

> Nobody should fool around with gmail, despite of being in favour of
> POP or IMAP. No gmail, less problems.

I completely disagree with this last statement. The corporate version
of Gmail saved me a ton of headaches back when I ran my university's
mail service. In fact these days that service would simply not be able
to exist without it, because it's in a cash-strapped third world
country and simply cannot afford to run its own servers.

And the free version of Gmail has by far the best spam filtering I've
come across. In fact I don't even bother with Bogofilter or
Spamassassin any more.

YMMV of course, as to repeat: people's needs may be different.

This is starting to get off-topic so I suggest we agree to disagree.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Milan Crha via evolution-list]

On Mon, 2022-08-15 at 06:08 -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote:
> when I try to add this email address as a POP account, Evolution
> automatically turns it into a "gmail-type" account and reverts to
> IMAP syncing. 

Hi,
I tried it with 3.44.4 (which might be pretty much the same as your
3.44.3 in this regard, I think), and when I do:

File->New->Mail Account, fill in the Gmail address, click Next (with
the lookup enabled), then it auto-detects the settings and moves me to
the end of the wizard, where I click Back and change the IMAP to POP,
then just Next, choose whether leave the message on the server or not,
then Next, Next, ... back to the end of the wizard and there I leave
unchecked the boxes to add also Contacts and the Calendars/Task Lists
for this account (they had been checked after the autoconfig, but when
I switched to the POP it unchecked them on its own), then the POP type
sticks.

I guess the difference is the Contacts/Calendars/Task Lists, you
probably checked one or both of them, in which case you get a
collection account, which is fully managed by the evolution(-data-
server), which forces IMAP mail account type. Not using these two check
boxes creates bare account, which is completely up to you to setup
properly.

The help page [1] doesn't mention the detail about the check boxes, but
it also offers a different (completely manual) way of creating the POP
account.

Bye,
Milan

[1] 
https://infrastructure.pages.gitlab.gnome.org/help.gnome.org/evolution/mail-access-gmail-pop-account.html

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

On Tue, 2022-08-16 at 11:12 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> We've been over this before. There's nothing stopping you from syncing
> your IMAP account to your local machine. There is *NO* advantage to
> using POP, and a number of disadvantages. The only reason to ever use
> it is if your mail provider doesn't support IMAP.

Hi,

my bad, I haven't read the whole thread.

I've got different "local" machines with different operating systems.
Offline-IMAP can be a PITA and might be more or less impossible on some
machines. Setting up a POP account is straightforward for power users as
well as noobs. If only one MUA deletes the POP mails from the server,
after n days, the mails are similar accessible by different MUAs as IMPA
mails are, but without all the offline IMAP issues, such as duplicated
emails. And as already pointed out by my riseup.net link, quota is an
issue, maybe not for spoiled people, but for all those watching every
penny.

Much likely we will easily find more "exceptional cases", such as the
one mentioned by Jaroslaw Rafa. However, all of us are aware of common
pitfalls of IMAP as well as POP. Why don't I see this or that folder?
Spam filtering on the server vs on the machine, both has got pros and
cons.

I will not convince anybody that POP is better than IMAP. The only point
I make is that POP can be better than IMAP for some users under some
circumstances.

Nobody should fool around with gmail, despite of being in favour of POP
or IMAP. No gmail, less problems.

Regards,
Ralf

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Francisco M Neto]

Hi,

On Tue, 2022-08-16 at 08:30 +0200, Andre Klapper via evolution-list wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-08-15 at 22:57 -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote:
> 
> > I just want POP to work properly.
> 
> Help  Contents  Common Mail Questions and Problems  Access a
> Gmail POP Account via Evolution.

Thanks but that was the _first_ thing I tried.

--
Francisco



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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2022-08-16 at 14:18 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list
wrote:
> Dnia 16.08.2022 o godz. 13:14:04 Patrick O'Callaghan pisze:
> > > Yes, I would concede that. I occasionally do that as it's a way
> > > of
> > > fetching mail *into* my Gmail account from another account.
> > > However
> > > that's a special case.
> > 
> > Just to add that this isn't an actual advantage of POP in itself.
> > It's
> > a "necessary evil" because Gmail doesn't support fetching via IMAP
> > from
> > a different service.
> 
> Technically yes, but it's a common default for POP to delete mail
> from server
> after fetching, while it's common default for IMAP to keep mail on
> the
> server (otherwise local and server mailbox wouldn't be in sync, which
> will
> cause trouble for a typical mail client), therefore POP seems better
> suited
> to that kind of operation than IMAP.

Agreed.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list]

Dnia 16.08.2022 o godz. 13:14:04 Patrick O'Callaghan pisze:
> > Yes, I would concede that. I occasionally do that as it's a way of
> > fetching mail *into* my Gmail account from another account. However
> > that's a special case.
> 
> Just to add that this isn't an actual advantage of POP in itself. It's
> a "necessary evil" because Gmail doesn't support fetching via IMAP from
> a different service.

Technically yes, but it's a common default for POP to delete mail from server
after fetching, while it's common default for IMAP to keep mail on the
server (otherwise local and server mailbox wouldn't be in sync, which will
cause trouble for a typical mail client), therefore POP seems better suited
to that kind of operation than IMAP.
-- 
Pozdrowienia,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   r...@rafa.eu.org
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there
was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2022-08-16 at 13:10 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Tue, 2022-08-16 at 12:19 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list
> wrote:
> > Dnia 16.08.2022 o godz. 11:12:12 Patrick O'Callaghan pisze:
> > > We've been over this before. There's nothing stopping you from
> > > syncing
> > > your IMAP account to your local machine. There is *NO* advantage
> > > to
> > > using POP, and a number of disadvantages. The only reason to ever
> > > use
> > > it is if your mail provider doesn't support IMAP.
> > 
> > There is one more valid reason to use POP: if you have a main mail
> > account
> > (A) and a secondary one (B), and you want to have all messages from
> > account
> > B forwarded to account A, but account B doesn't allow to configure
> > forwarding.
> > 
> > If account A allows to configure fetching mail via POP from remote
> > accounts,
> > you can then configure some way of "forwarding" from B to A by
> > fetching mail
> > via POP.
> 
> Yes, I would concede that. I occasionally do that as it's a way of
> fetching mail *into* my Gmail account from another account. However
> that's a special case.

Just to add that this isn't an actual advantage of POP in itself. It's
a "necessary evil" because Gmail doesn't support fetching via IMAP from
a different service.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2022-08-16 at 12:19 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list
wrote:
> Dnia 16.08.2022 o godz. 11:12:12 Patrick O'Callaghan pisze:
> > We've been over this before. There's nothing stopping you from
> > syncing
> > your IMAP account to your local machine. There is *NO* advantage to
> > using POP, and a number of disadvantages. The only reason to ever
> > use
> > it is if your mail provider doesn't support IMAP.
> 
> There is one more valid reason to use POP: if you have a main mail
> account
> (A) and a secondary one (B), and you want to have all messages from
> account
> B forwarded to account A, but account B doesn't allow to configure
> forwarding.
> 
> If account A allows to configure fetching mail via POP from remote
> accounts,
> you can then configure some way of "forwarding" from B to A by
> fetching mail
> via POP.

Yes, I would concede that. I occasionally do that as it's a way of
fetching mail *into* my Gmail account from another account. However
that's a special case.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list]

Dnia 16.08.2022 o godz. 12:22:55 Andre Klapper via evolution-list pisze:
> On Tue, 2022-08-16 at 12:19 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote:
> > There is one more valid reason to use POP: if you have a main mail account
> > (A) and a secondary one (B), and you want to have all messages from account
> > B forwarded to account A, but account B doesn't allow to configure
> > forwarding.
> 
> That resembles http://www.xkcd.com/1172/

You may laugh, but many people actually do use this.

This is even recommended by some "deliverability specialists" as a better(!)
alternative to forwarding (especially to Gmail), because forwarding breaks
SPF (or SPF breaks forwarding - it depends how do you view that issue) and
sending a lot of messages with failed SPF may decrease the reputation of the
sending server on the receiving end.
-- 
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   r...@rafa.eu.org
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there
was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Andre Klapper via evolution-list]

On Tue, 2022-08-16 at 12:19 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote:
> There is one more valid reason to use POP: if you have a main mail account
> (A) and a secondary one (B), and you want to have all messages from account
> B forwarded to account A, but account B doesn't allow to configure
> forwarding.

That resembles http://www.xkcd.com/1172/

Cheers,
andre
--
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https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list]

Dnia 16.08.2022 o godz. 11:12:12 Patrick O'Callaghan pisze:
> We've been over this before. There's nothing stopping you from syncing
> your IMAP account to your local machine. There is *NO* advantage to
> using POP, and a number of disadvantages. The only reason to ever use
> it is if your mail provider doesn't support IMAP.

There is one more valid reason to use POP: if you have a main mail account
(A) and a secondary one (B), and you want to have all messages from account
B forwarded to account A, but account B doesn't allow to configure
forwarding.

If account A allows to configure fetching mail via POP from remote accounts,
you can then configure some way of "forwarding" from B to A by fetching mail
via POP.
-- 
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   r...@rafa.eu.org
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there
was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2022-08-16 at 09:51 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list
wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-08-15 at 19:59 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> > On Mon, 2022-08-15 at 17:24 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > > On Mon, 2022-08-15 at 06:08 -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote:
> > > > Nevertheless, I want to add email through POP; I *really* don't
> > > > want
> > > > to keep anything in google's hands.
> > > Up to you of course, but that logic doesn't make sense to me. 
> > 
> > +1,000,000,000
> 
> Hi,
> 
> if the emails are on your machine, than Google can't deny access to
> your
> old, already received emails. If the emails are on a Google server,
> they
> can deny access to your old, already received emails. An authority
> might
> advice Google to deny access and Google might obey.

We've been over this before. There's nothing stopping you from syncing
your IMAP account to your local machine. There is *NO* advantage to
using POP, and a number of disadvantages. The only reason to ever use
it is if your mail provider doesn't support IMAP.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

On Tue, 2022-08-16 at 09:47 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> 
> > On 16. Aug 2022, at 01:59, Adam Tauno Williams  
> > wrote:
> > 
> > I strongly encourage NOT using POP.  It is an old protocol AND IT ADDS
> > NO VALUE, none what-so-ever.  It doesn't, do not believe anyone who
> > tells you otherwise.
> 
> One of the reasons is to relief email servers run for free as in beer by 
> activists.

PS: See https://riseup.net/en/email/clients
and https://riseup.net/en/email/settings/quota .
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

On Mon, 2022-08-15 at 19:59 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-08-15 at 17:24 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > On Mon, 2022-08-15 at 06:08 -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote:
> > > Nevertheless, I want to add email through POP; I *really* don't
> > > want
> > > to keep anything in google's hands.
> > Up to you of course, but that logic doesn't make sense to me. 
> 
> +1,000,000,000

Hi,

if the emails are on your machine, than Google can't deny access to your
old, already received emails. If the emails are on a Google server, they
can deny access to your old, already received emails. An authority might
advice Google to deny access and Google might obey.

Regards,
Ralf

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

> On 16. Aug 2022, at 01:59, Adam Tauno Williams  wrote:
> 
> I strongly encourage NOT using POP.  It is an old protocol AND IT ADDS
> NO VALUE, none what-so-ever.  It doesn't, do not believe anyone who
> tells you otherwise.

Hi,

I’m in favour of POP for several reasons. One of the reasons is to relief email 
servers run for free as in beer by activists. However, I’m using POP only also 
for accounts that aren’t accounts on a activists’ email servers.

Regards,
Ralf
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Andre Klapper via evolution-list]

On Mon, 2022-08-15 at 22:57 -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote:

> I just want POP to work properly.

Help  Contents  Common Mail Questions and Problems  Access a
Gmail POP Account via Evolution.

Cheers,
andre
--
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https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Francisco M Neto]

On Mon, 2022-08-15 at 19:57 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> If you are using gmail as a POP server everything is still in Google's
> hands.  If this is actually a concern you should consider a different mail
> provider [fastmail.fm?]

That's beside the point; that option is not available since it's a work
related email. I have no option but use Google's services.

> I strongly encourage NOT using POP.  It is an old protocol AND IT ADDS
> NO VALUE, none what-so-ever.  It doesn't, do not believe anyone who
> tells you otherwise.

Also beside the point. I'm not trying to argue IMAP vs POP. I just want
POP to work properly.

--
Francisco


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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Mon, 2022-08-15 at 17:24 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-08-15 at 06:08 -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote:
> > Nevertheless, I want to add email through POP; I *really* don't
> > want
> > to keep anything in google's hands.
> Up to you of course, but that logic doesn't make sense to me. 

+1,000,000,000

> Furthermore, keeping your mail on Google's servers is a convenient
> way of being able to access it from anywhere, with or without
> Evolution.

And a 'feature' provided by any IMAP service.

-- 
Adam Tauno Williams  GPG D95ED383
Systems Administrator, Python Developer, LPI / NCLA

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Mon, 2022-08-15 at 06:08 -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote:
> Greetings, 
> I have been trying to add one of my email accounts to Nevertheless, I
> want to add email through POP; I *really* don't want
> to keep anything in google's hands. 

If you are using gmail as a POP server everything is still in Google's
hands.  If this is actually a concern you should consider a different mail 
provider [fastmail.fm?]

I strongly encourage NOT using POP.  It is an old protocol AND IT ADDS
NO VALUE, none what-so-ever.  It doesn't, do not believe anyone who
tells you otherwise.

-- 
Adam Tauno Williams  GPG D95ED383
Systems Administrator, Python Developer, LPI / NCLA

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Pete Biggs]

> 
>   Also, I appreciate the discussion but it has gone off on a tangent. How
> can I convince Evolution that I want it to use gmail with POP?

If you are setting it up from scratch in Evolution, then I suspect that
it is picking up some old configuration. So I suggest you delete the
gmail account, shutdown Evolution completely, including all it's
factory processes ('evolution --force-shutdown') then look in
~/.config/evolution/sources for any source file that contains the
account details.  Review the file and if they are old, delete them. I
think that is OK to do, but you might want to wait for comments from
someone who knows better.

Alternatively, create a new Linux user and set up an account on that
(so you have a clean config) and see if it still misbehaves.  If it
does, then I suspect it is a bug.

Have you tried other mail clients to do it?

> 
> 
>   Also, I _know_ they are probably monitoring my incoming mail anyway;
> but at least this way I can use another SMTP server so my outgoing traffic
> doesn't go through their servers. 

Be careful doing that - sending out mail through something other than a
gmail server will possibly create DMARC/SPF errors.

> 
> > I totally understand a desire for privacy and keeping data away from
> > the likes of Google, bit I think using POP for this reason brings
> > horses and stable doors to mind.
> 
>   I'm not sure I understand the allegory;
> 

"Locking the stable door after the horse has bolted"

>  but I'd rather not stay
> connected to a server to access my email. Having it stored locally and only
> connect to a server to send or receive fits my workflow better.
> 
Sure, but you can do that with IMAP as well. But if you want to use POP
then do so.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Francisco M Neto]

Greetings!

Thanks for the replies.

Also, I appreciate the discussion but it has gone off on a tangent. How
can I convince Evolution that I want it to use gmail with POP?

On Mon, 2022-08-15 at 17:50 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-08-15 at 17:24 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> 
> It may well be that it is a work account that uses gmail.  But I think
> it's naive to think that using POP to remove the mail from Google means
> that Google will forget about the content or that they hadn't already
> got tons of info from it before you even saw it in your Inbox.

That's exactly my case. I'm using this particular account because I
have no choice on the matter. 

Also, I _know_ they are probably monitoring my incoming mail anyway;
but at least this way I can use another SMTP server so my outgoing traffic
doesn't go through their servers. 

> I totally understand a desire for privacy and keeping data away from
> the likes of Google, bit I think using POP for this reason brings
> horses and stable doors to mind.

I'm not sure I understand the allegory; but I'd rather not stay
connected to a server to access my email. Having it stored locally and only
connect to a server to send or receive fits my workflow better.

Cheers,
Francisco



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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Pete Biggs]

On Mon, 2022-08-15 at 17:24 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-08-15 at 06:08 -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote:
> > Nevertheless, I want to add email through POP; I *really* don't want
> > to keep anything in google's hands.
> 
> Up to you of course, but that logic doesn't make sense to me. If you
> don't trust Google, why are you using their mail servers, which have
> full access to everything going through them?
> 
It may well be that it is a work account that uses gmail.  But I think
it's naive to think that using POP to remove the mail from Google means
that Google will forget about the content or that they hadn't already
got tons of info from it before you even saw it in your Inbox.

I totally understand a desire for privacy and keeping data away from
the likes of Google, bit I think using POP for this reason brings
horses and stable doors to mind.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2022-08-15 at 06:08 -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote:
> Nevertheless, I want to add email through POP; I *really* don't want
> to keep anything in google's hands.

Up to you of course, but that logic doesn't make sense to me. If you
don't trust Google, why are you using their mail servers, which have
full access to everything going through them?

Furthermore, keeping your mail on Google's servers is a convenient way
of being able to access it from anywhere, with or without Evolution.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Francisco M Neto]

Thanks for your response!

On Mon, 2022-08-15 at 10:36 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> 
> Please give your Evolution version as things do change over time.

I'm using Evolution 3.44.3-2, from Debian Bookworm. 

> > Why does Evolution do that? Is there any way I can use this email in
> > Evolution without it forcing me to use IMAP?
> > 
> At the bottom of the "Identity" page when creating an account there's a
> tick box "Look up mail server " if that is enabled, Evolution will

[...]

> Untick the box and add all the server details manually:

I did that. It still reverts to the gmail-style account, though.

> Presumably you have everything setup at the gmail side for POP3 access.

Yes, I do. 


--
francisco


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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Pete Biggs]

Please give your Evolution version as things do change over time.

> 
>   Nevertheless, I want to add email through POP; I *really* don't want to
> keep anything in google's hands. However, when I try to add this email address
> as a POP account, Evolution automatically turns it into a "gmail-type" account
> and reverts to IMAP syncing. 
> 
>   Why does Evolution do that? Is there any way I can use this email in
> Evolution without it forcing me to use IMAP?
> 
At the bottom of the "Identity" page when creating an account there's a
tick box "Look up mail server " if that is enabled, Evolution will
fill in the mail config with what the provider thinks it should be,
which is almost certainly not POP3.

Untick the box and add all the server details manually:

  https://support.google.com/mail/answer/7104828?hl=en

Presumably you have everything setup at the gmail side for POP3 access.

P.
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[Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Francisco M Neto]

Greetings, 

I have been trying to add one of my email accounts to Evolution, but
have had little to no success. 
This particular account is hosted by gmail. Adding it through GNOME's
Online Accounts is easy enough. However, periodically Evolution fails to sync
mail, tasks and/or calendar, and the only solution for that is removing the
account and adding it again. 

Nevertheless, I want to add email through POP; I *really* don't want to
keep anything in google's hands. However, when I try to add this email address
as a POP account, Evolution automatically turns it into a "gmail-type" account
and reverts to IMAP syncing. 

Why does Evolution do that? Is there any way I can use this email in
Evolution without it forcing me to use IMAP?

Thanks
Francisco


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Re: [Evolution] evolution and gmail

[Milan Crha via evolution-list]

On Wed, 2018-11-28 at 14:01 -0700, William Dossett via evolution-list
wrote:
> the reported error was failed to authenicate the name 1.9 was not
> provided by and service files

Hi,
it usually means that some background service exited unexpectedly,
maybe it crashed for some reason. Which it is is hard to tell though.

I have configured the Google account within evolution, no GOA involved,
and it works fine here. I believe your issue is related to the gone
D-Bus service.
Bye,
Milan

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Re: [Evolution] evolution and gmail

[Andre Klapper]

On Wed, 2018-11-28 at 14:01 -0700, William Dossett wrote:
> I've tried everything I can think of and have found googling

"Help > Contents > Access a Gmail IMAP Account via Evolution".

What to do to make people read user documentation...?

andre
-- 
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Re: [Evolution] evolution and gmail

[william.dossett--- via evolution-list]

LOL   that worked immediately.   Thanks!

-Original Message-
From: Leopoldo Macias  
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2018 2:46 PM
To: William Dossett ; evolution-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: [Evolution] evolution and gmail

Bill,
I use gmail on my Evolution. Have you tried using Online Accounts to set it up? 
I use Settings-->Online Accounts and selecting Google.
Worked for me without having to enter the port numbers or security settings.

Evolution 3.26.6


On Wed, 2018-11-28 at 14:01 -0700, William Dossett via evolution-list
wrote:
> Hi,
>  
> I've tried everything I can think of and have found googling and I 
> can't make evolution work with gmail.  When I first setup evolution a 
> few months ago, it worked, but then I had some issue with it and my 
> exchange mail account and uninstalled and reinstalled a couple of 
> times and now it just will not work.  I have tried all the different 
> encyption methods, oauth2 and password authentication
>  
> Prettty much all the same error, or two different errors maybe... 
> with the standard configuration that it auto configures when I give it 
> my email address
>  
> imap.googlemail.com  port 993
>  
> tls on dedicated port  and oAuth2  I get a big red banner failed to 
> connect and failed to open folder with a reconnect button.  When I 
> reconnect, I put my credentials in and then I get failed to open 
> folder, the reported error was failed to authenicate the name 1.9 was 
> not provided by and service files and thats pretty much it, it doesn't 
> fetch mail.  I have tried password and starttls after connecting and 
> combinations of these, but always the read banner saying can't open 
> folder... actually with the second combination above it goes to 
> loading and I was hopeful it might be downloading, but no, eventually 
> it gives up after a very long time.  I know evolution must work with 
> google as it did at first, is there
> something I need to clean out of it that might be cached?   Would
> reallly appreciate any help with this as I am now using Linux Mint 
> more than 50% of the time and growing for work as it's just more 
> efficient than windows for the work I am doing these days and having 
> to turn to my windows system to check my gmail or use the web browser 
> doesnt' really cut it.
>  
> Thanks
> Bill
>  
>  
>  
>  
> ___
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Re: [Evolution] evolution and gmail

[william.dossett--- via evolution-list]

Yeah, should have been using Online accounts, thanks!

-Original Message-
From: evolution-list  On Behalf Of Patrick
O'Callaghan
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2018 4:01 PM
To: evolution-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: [Evolution] evolution and gmail

On Wed, 2018-11-28 at 14:01 -0700, William Dossett via evolution-list
wrote:
> I've tried everything I can think of and have found googling and I can't
make evolution work with gmail.

I've been doing that for years. In fact I'm answering this via a Google
account (G Suite in this case, but I also have a standard Gmail account with
the same setup).

Your message omits three things which are fairly relevant:

1) Which version of Evolution is this? (Help->About)
2) What kind of Gmail connection are you setting up (POP or IMAP)?
3) Are you using GOA (Gnome Online Accounts) for authentication?

poc

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Re: [Evolution] evolution and gmail

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2018-11-28 at 14:01 -0700, William Dossett via evolution-list
wrote:
> I've tried everything I can think of and have found googling and I can't make 
> evolution work with gmail.

I've been doing that for years. In fact I'm answering this via a Google
account (G Suite in this case, but I also have a standard Gmail account
with the same setup).

Your message omits three things which are fairly relevant:

1) Which version of Evolution is this? (Help->About)
2) What kind of Gmail connection are you setting up (POP or IMAP)?
3) Are you using GOA (Gnome Online Accounts) for authentication?

poc

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Re: [Evolution] evolution and gmail

[Leopoldo Macias]

Bill,
I use gmail on my Evolution. Have you tried using Online Accounts to
set it up? I use Settings-->Online Accounts and selecting Google.
Worked for me without having to enter the port numbers or security
settings.

Evolution 3.26.6


On Wed, 2018-11-28 at 14:01 -0700, William Dossett via evolution-list
wrote:
> Hi,
>  
> I've tried everything I can think of and have found googling and I
> can't make evolution work with gmail.  When I first setup evolution a
> few months ago, it worked, but then I had some issue with it and my
> exchange mail account and uninstalled and reinstalled a couple of
> times and now it just will not work.  I have tried all the different
> encyption methods, oauth2 and password authentication 
>  
> Prettty much all the same error, or two different errors maybe... 
> with the standard configuration that it auto configures when I give
> it my email address
>  
> imap.googlemail.com  port 993
>  
> tls on dedicated port  and oAuth2  I get a big red banner failed to
> connect and failed to open folder with a reconnect button.  When I
> reconnect, I put my credentials in and then I get failed to open
> folder, the reported error was failed to authenicate the name 1.9 was
> not provided by and service files and thats pretty much it, it
> doesn't fetch mail.  I have tried password and starttls after
> connecting and combinations of these, but always the read banner
> saying can't open folder... actually with the second combination
> above it goes to loading and I was hopeful it might be downloading,
> but no, eventually it gives up after a very long time.  I know
> evolution must work with google as it did at first, is there
> something I need to clean out of it that might be cached?   Would
> reallly appreciate any help with this as I am now using Linux Mint
> more than 50% of the time and growing for work as it's just more
> efficient than windows for the work I am doing these days and having
> to turn to my windows system to check my gmail or use the web browser
> doesnt' really cut it.
>  
> Thanks
> Bill
>  
>  
>  
>  
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[Evolution] evolution and gmail

[William Dossett via evolution-list]

Hi,

 

I've tried everything I can think of and have found googling and I can't make 
evolution work with gmail.  When I first setup evolution a few months ago, it 
worked, but then I had some issue with it and my exchange mail account and 
uninstalled and reinstalled a couple of times and now it just will not work.  I 
have tried all the different encyption methods, oauth2 and password 
authentication 

 

Prettty much all the same error, or two different errors maybe...  with the 
standard configuration that it auto configures when I give it my email address

 

imap.googlemail.com <http://imap.googlemail.com>   port 993

 

tls on dedicated port  and oAuth2  I get a big red banner failed to connect and 
failed to open folder with a reconnect button.  When I reconnect, I put my 
credentials in and then I get failed to open folder, the reported error was 
failed to authenicate the name 1.9 was not provided by and service files and 
thats pretty much it, it doesn't fetch mail.  I have tried password and 
starttls after connecting and combinations of these, but always the read banner 
saying can't open folder... actually with the second combination above it goes 
to loading and I was hopeful it might be downloading, but no, eventually it 
gives up after a very long time.  I know evolution must work with google as it 
did at first, is there something I need to clean out of it that might be 
cached?   Would reallly appreciate any help with this as I am now using Linux 
Mint more than 50% of the time and growing for work as it's just more efficient 
than windows for the work I am doing these days and having to turn to my 
windows system to check my gmail or use the web browser doesnt' really cut it.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

 

 

 

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail not playing

[Milan Crha]

On Mon, 2015-08-24 at 19:56 +1000, Alex McConnell wrote:
 I have updated Evolution to 3.16.0 from the ppa to see if that helps
 but the behaviour seems to be unchanged.
 
 It seems to me that some process is going into a loop or perhaps
 there is some library that reaches its maximum number of threads and
 dies.
 
 Grateful for any suggestions.  At the moment just nursing it along 
 to see if something in Ubuntu 15.10 fixes it.

Hi,
I'd suggest to install debuginfo packages for evolution-data-server
and evolution, I'm not sure from the above whether you stayed on
3.16.0 or reverted back to whatever versions the Ubuntu 15.10 offers
(both evolution-data-server and evolution versions matter - you should
keep them in sync). With the debuginfo packages installed just
reproduce the issue and get the backtrace of the evolution in the
stall state. You can get the backtrace with this command:
   $ gdb --batch --ex t a a bt -pid=`pidof evolution` bt.txt
Please check the bt.txt for any private information, like passwords,
email address, server addresses,... I usually search for pass at
least (quotes for clarity only).

That will show what the evolution does. Maybe it'll show that it is
waiting for a response from the Google server. It'll be good to run
evolution from the console and watch the output there, as it can
sometimes show interesting/related stuff there.

With respect of the concurrent connections, it's only IMAPx in the
Evolution which offers this setting. The POP3 accounts are connected
and disconnected on demand (they connect, do the update and
disconnect). The GMail has a limit for connecting to it. It used to be
lower in the past, but it seems like being around 15 connections these
days (according to one bug reporter's testing). The thing is that some
connection(s) uses IMAPx, some Contacts, some Calendars and eventually
also Tasks - all being done from one machine and different evolution
processes.
Bye,
Milan
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail not playing

[Tom]

Am Montag, den 24.08.2015, 12:28 +0200 schrieb Ralf Mardorf:
 I can't help much with the issue, but AFAIK the archive provides much
 information about it.
 
 On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:56:41 +1000, Alex McConnell wrote:
 After it stalls, I have to use xkill to kill Evolution.
 
 Did you try Evolution's force shutdown option first?
 
 --force-shutdown

Can anyone explain the difference little more in depth ?
What exactly does Evolution's force shutdown option ?

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail not playing

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2015-08-25 at 22:33 +0200, Tom wrote:
 Am Montag, den 24.08.2015, 12:28 +0200 schrieb Ralf Mardorf:
  I can't help much with the issue, but AFAIK the archive provides
  much
  information about it.
  
  On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:56:41 +1000, Alex McConnell wrote:
   After it stalls, I have to use xkill to kill Evolution.
  
  Did you try Evolution's force shutdown option first?
  
  --force-shutdown
 
 Can anyone explain the difference little more in depth ?
 What exactly does Evolution's force shutdown option ?

It shuts down all the processes Evo may have started, not just the main
window but the addressbook, calendar, alarm etc.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail not playing

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2015-08-24 at 21:53 +1000, Alex McConnell wrote:
 I had come across the suggestion about concurrent connections before 
 but it does not appear
  in the pop configuration - I think it must only be for an IMAP 
 connection.
 I should have added I have looked around extensively for a solution 
 before asking on this list.

[Please don't top-post on the list]

I strongly doubt that it is only for IMAP. Google applies traffic
throttling for load control on all its services, not just email.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail not playing

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2015-08-24 at 16:39 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
 On Mon, 2015-08-24 at 21:53 +1000, Alex McConnell wrote:
  I had come across the suggestion about concurrent connections
  before 
  but it does not appear
   in the pop configuration - I think it must only be for an IMAP 
  connection.
  I should have added I have looked around extensively for a solution
  before asking on this list.
 
 [Please don't top-post on the list]
 
 I strongly doubt that it is only for IMAP. Google applies traffic
 throttling for load control on all its services, not just email.

Apologies for that. I now see that you meant that Evo doesn't provide a
control to limit connections in the case of POP. However it remains the
case that Google may throttle traffic to a user, so you might want to
review the frequency of checking the POP server.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail not playing

[Ralf Mardorf]

I can't help much with the issue, but AFAIK the archive provides much
information about it.

On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:56:41 +1000, Alex McConnell wrote:
After it stalls, I have to use xkill to kill Evolution.

Did you try Evolution's force shutdown option first?

--force-shutdown
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail not playing

[Pete Biggs]

On Mon, 2015-08-24 at 19:56 +1000, Alex McConnell wrote:
 Ever since installing Ubuntu 15.04 I have had a combination of
 problems with Evolution

Means nothing - please use Evolution version numbers, not distro
version numbers.

 
 Evolution seems to stall part through a pop download from Gmail.  I
 have a number of pop accounts set up in Evolution, two of which are
 Gmail but it alsways seems to be the more heavily trafficed one which
 causes the problem.

The solution is in the archives

Edit - Preferences - [select account] - Edit - Receiving options

and reduce the number of concurrent connections to '1'.

Gmail aggressively throttles connections that it thinks are hitting it
too hard - it interprets more than one concurrent connection as being
too much.


 After it stalls, I have to use xkill to kill Evolution. 

Use 'evolution --force-shutdown' from a command line.


 I have updated Evolution to 3.16.0 from the ppa to see if that helps
 but the behaviour seems to be unchanged.

3.16.5 is the most recent version.

P.
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[Evolution] Evolution and Gmail not playing

[Alex McConnell]

Ever since installing Ubuntu 15.04 I have had a combination of 
problems with Evolution
Evolution seems to stall part through a pop download from Gmail.  I 
have a number of pop accounts set up in Evolution, two of which are 
Gmail but it alsways seems to be the more heavily trafficed one which 
causes the problem.
After it stalls, I have to use xkill to kill Evolution.  If I have 
left the client running, the other pop downloads seem to start but 
then stall as well.  A few things in Evolution still work, such a 
viewing emails but it is essentially frozen apart from that.
Associated with this, I get lots of completely empty emails in the 
Inbox.  They show as No Subject and there is almost nothing in the 
email.
I can sometimes detect that some emails have not downloaded at al;l by 
checking All Mail in Gmail - it seems to mainly be longer and more 
complex one (in html terms)
I will often have to kill and restart the client several times until I 
can get the download to finish without stalling.  It will typically 
say it is downloads (say) 5 out of 11 emails before it stalls and 
after the restart it will try to download 10 emails.  However most of 
the downloads will be the aforesaid empty emails.
I have updated Evolution to 3.16.0 from the ppa to see if that helps 
but the behaviour seems to be unchanged.
It seems to me that some process is going into a loop or perhaps there 
is some library that reaches its maximum number of threads and dies.
Grateful for any suggestions.  At the moment just nursing it along to 
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail not playing

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2015-08-24 at 11:37 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
 Gmail aggressively throttles connections that it thinks are hitting 
 it too hard - it interprets more than one concurrent connection as 
 being too much.

I wouldn't say it's that exact. They don't explicitly give a limit so
this is anecdotal. I currently have mine set to 2 and it seems to be
OK.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail not playing

[Alex McConnell]

I had come across the suggestion about concurrent connections before 
but it does not appear
 in the pop configuration - I think it must only be for an IMAP 
connection.
I should have added I have looked around extensively for a solution 
before asking on this list.
-Original Message-
From: Pete Biggs p...@biggs.org.uk
To: evolution-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail not playing
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 11:37:18 +0100
On Mon, 2015-08-24 at 19:56 +1000, Alex McConnell wrote:
 Ever since installing Ubuntu 15.04 I have had a combination of
 problems with Evolution
Means nothing - please use Evolution version numbers, not distro
version numbers.
 
 Evolution seems to stall part through a pop download from Gmail.  I
 have a number of pop accounts set up in Evolution, two of which are
 Gmail but it alsways seems to be the more heavily trafficed one which
 causes the problem.
The solution is in the archives
Edit - Preferences - [select account] - Edit - Receiving options
and reduce the number of concurrent connections to '1'.
Gmail aggressively throttles connections that it thinks are hitting it
too hard - it interprets more than one concurrent connection as being
too much.
 After it stalls, I have to use xkill to kill Evolution. 
Use 'evolution --force-shutdown' from a command line.
 I have updated Evolution to 3.16.0 from the ppa to see if that helps
 but the behaviour seems to be unchanged.
3.16.5 is the most recent version.
P.
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail

[Jeff]

To add even more confusion to this, GMail has two modes. You may not
have known about this, but: 

http://gmailblog.blogspot.com/2008/10/new-in-labs-advanced-imap-controls.html

Quoting the important part:


 If you'd prefer that deleted messages not remaining in any other
 visible IMAP folders are sent to [Gmail]/Trash instead, Advanced IMAP
 Controls lets you set your preferences this way. 
 
 In the 'IMAP Access:' section of the 'Forwarding and POP/IMAP' tab,
 find the 'When a message is deleted from the last visible IMAP
 folder:' option. 
 
 Select 'Move the message to the Gmail Trash.'
 
 If you want to take it one step further, you can select 'Immediately
 delete the message forever.'

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail

[Milan Crha]

On Sat, 2010-10-30 at 08:31 -0500, Christian wrote:
 I'm using Gmail with Evolution through IMAP. The problem is that there's
 no way to set Evolution to use the Gmail trash folder for deleted
 e-mail. I'm able to set Drafts and Sent, but not Trash. Right now I have
 to move mails manually when I want to delete to the Gmail trash folder.
 Is there a solution to this, or one in the works?

Hi,
just to add more fun to Pete and others in this thread:
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=206061#c103

Note this is for IMAP provider, not for the IMAP+.
Bye,
Milan

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail

[Christian]

On Sun, 2010-10-31 at 17:43 +, Pete Biggs wrote:

See http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=78755 and
http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=78892

   So does this answer the OP question?  When you delete a message using
   IMAP it will be moved to the [Gmail]/Trash folder because that's where
   its label indicates it should be?
  
  As far as I can see the message simply disappears when I delete it in
  Evo and is not moved to the [Gmail]/Trash folder as I would want it to
  be. It's not placed in the local trash either.
 
 As others have said (and I've now found by experimenting) the IMAP
 delete just removes the label - so the mail doesn't appear anywhere
 unless you select All Mail.
 
 This is surely a Google feature and not something that Evo can (or
 should) deal with.
 
 
   All it would take is to
  add an option in Evo where you could set where deleted mail should go
  just like for Drafts and Sent.
 
 No. Because of the way IMAP works moving mail to a Trash folder will
 cause too many problems - IMAP has a method for dealing with deleted
 mail (i.e. mark as deleted, then expunge) for a reason and fiddling with
 it creates too many other cludges elsewhere.  There are lots of
 discussions on this list in the past about it.

What kind of problems exactly? This would simply be an option and not
something forced on anyone. Other e-mail clients have this option
without any of them becoming problematic because of it.
 
   Other e-mail clients has while
  Thunderbird has a custom setting having the Gmail trash folder used.
  That could be the other option for Evo: A custom setting for Gmail.
 
 So because Gmail decides to break a standard, Evo has to program around
 it?

In my opinion, yes although has to is too strong. Evo should
consider the Gmail service so important to support that resolving this
problem should be looked into. Fortunately there's now Thunderbird which
has such a fix. I've used Evo for years but now through some projects
I'm involved in I have to use a Gmail powered account quite extensively.
I will check out Thunderbird and see how close to Evo it is in other
ways and then make a decision what to do. Evo already has great support
for Google calendar and address book. I do not understand why it
shouldn't support Google's email also.
  
 P.
 
 
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail

[Christian]

On Sun, 2010-10-31 at 17:54 +, Pete Biggs wrote:
  
  When I delete messages in Gmail it's moved to the [Gmail]/Trash folder
  from which it's permanently deleted after 30 days. So all it would take
  to get it working was having an option to set the Trash folder just like
  you can sett Sent and Drafts.
 
 You should be aware that the Trash folder in Evo is not a real folder
 - it's effectively a search folder that shows all messages that are
 currently marked for deletion (please untick View-Hide Deleted Messages
 so you can see the deleted messages in their original folders) - as such
 re-implementing the Trash as a real folder would take a considerable
 amount of work.

The delete/expunge concept in IMAP is not my favorite feature of the
protocol. Several e-mail client mask this by offering options to
expunge messages as soon as Delete is hit, and offer an option to move
deleted mail to a set trash folder. I would like to see those options in
Evo. Please note that I say option to and not that I want it to be the
default way. Evo offers to hide deleted mail which is good though.

If it would be a considerable amount of work having the option to set
where mail should go when you hit delete I can understand that it's not
prioritized. I wish it was though.
 
 Also you should consider the process that is necessary to delete a
 message under the two schemes - for the Evo/IMAP model all you need to
 do is a single mark as deleted operation over IMAP followed at some
 later time by an expunge; for the move to trash paradigm you need to
 do a copy message to folder (IMAP only has a copy operation), mark
 message as deleted in original folder, expunge original folder.  The
 killer is that the expunge operation is a time costly process, but if
 you don't do the expunge you will be left with lots of messages marked
 for deletion in the original folder.  It may be OK if you are deleting a
 single message - but I often delete 100s or 1000s at a time...

I understand it requires a few operations but it works great in other
e-mail clients so I'm sure it would in Evo also.
 
 P.
 
 
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail

[Christian]

On Sun, 2010-10-31 at 14:42 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
 On Sun, 2010-10-31 at 17:54 +, Pete Biggs wrote:
  Also you should consider the process that is necessary to delete a
  message under the two schemes - for the Evo/IMAP model all you need to
  do is a single mark as deleted operation over IMAP followed at some
  later time by an expunge; for the move to trash paradigm you need to
  do a copy message to folder (IMAP only has a copy operation), mark
  message as deleted in original folder, expunge original folder.
  The
  killer is that the expunge operation is a time costly process, but
  if
  you don't do the expunge you will be left with lots of messages marked
  for deletion in the original folder.  It may be OK if you are deleting
  a
  single message - but I often delete 100s or 1000s at a time...
 
 +1
 
 To the OP: just to be clear, you can't expunge a single message in IMAP,
 only an entire folder. This means that the paradigm of delete by moving
 the message to Trash *cannot* be implemented strictly by any conforming
 IMAP server, since IMAP doesn't have a move operation, as Pete says.
 Or to be more precise, it can be done if that's the only form of
 deletion you ever use (because the originating folder is being expunged
 for every deletion). The beauty of the IMAP model is that undeletion
 then becomes trivial: just remove the mark. You don't have to move
 messages around or remember where they originally came from.

All I know is that in other e-mail clients you are able to set it to
work so that messages are deleted/expunged in the same operation, and
also be moved to a set trash folder. I'm not saying that this should be
the default way in Evo, but having the options would be nice.
 
 poc
 
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail

[Christian]

On Mon, 2010-11-01 at 08:42 +0100, Milan Crha wrote:
 On Sat, 2010-10-30 at 08:31 -0500, Christian wrote:
  I'm using Gmail with Evolution through IMAP. The problem is that there's
  no way to set Evolution to use the Gmail trash folder for deleted
  e-mail. I'm able to set Drafts and Sent, but not Trash. Right now I have
  to move mails manually when I want to delete to the Gmail trash folder.
  Is there a solution to this, or one in the works?
 
   Hi,
 just to add more fun to Pete and others in this thread:
 https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=206061#c103
 
 Note this is for IMAP provider, not for the IMAP+.
   Bye,
   Milan
 
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Thanks! I think we can all agree that Evo's support for Gmail isn't
complete. The discussion is whether it should be since Google is
breaking the rules of IMAP. One can dislike how Gmail works, but it's
still a very popular e-mail service which it makes sense to support also
for Evo. Several e-mail clients now have a custom setting for Gmail
(Thundebird) and others detect it's a gmail account and set Trash
according. Finally there's those where you can set a trash folder in the
same way as Drafts and Sent. One of these options would be great to see
in Evo.

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail

[Ng Oon-Ee]

Let me first note that its confusing having multiple replies on the same
topic to various people all in a row =). Continuing below...

On Mon, 2010-11-01 at 08:53 -0500, Christian wrote:
 On Sun, 2010-10-31 at 17:43 +, Pete Biggs wrote:
Other e-mail clients has while
   Thunderbird has a custom setting having the Gmail trash folder used.
   That could be the other option for Evo: A custom setting for Gmail.
  
  So because Gmail decides to break a standard, Evo has to program around
  it?
 
 In my opinion, yes although has to is too strong. Evo should
 consider the Gmail service so important to support that resolving this
 problem should be looked into. Fortunately there's now Thunderbird which
 has such a fix. I've used Evo for years but now through some projects
 I'm involved in I have to use a Gmail powered account quite extensively.
 I will check out Thunderbird and see how close to Evo it is in other
 ways and then make a decision what to do. Evo already has great support
 for Google calendar and address book. I do not understand why it
 shouldn't support Google's email also.

Good luck using Thunderbird. It is simple not comparable with
Evolution's feature set. In fact the ONLY way it outdoes Evolution
currently (IMO) is the way it handles threading.

If you want to handle gmail in this specific way, why not using
offlineimap as an interface between evo and gmail (I do this in order to
maintain an offline copy of my email at all times), it allows for 'true'
delete to be reflected to gmail.

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail

[Pete Biggs]

 Thanks! I think we can all agree that Evo's support for Gmail isn't
 complete. The discussion is whether it should be since Google is
 breaking the rules of IMAP. One can dislike how Gmail works, but it's
 still a very popular e-mail service which it makes sense to support also
 for Evo. Several e-mail clients now have a custom setting for Gmail
 (Thundebird) and others detect it's a gmail account and set Trash
 according. Finally there's those where you can set a trash folder in the
 same way as Drafts and Sent. One of these options would be great to see
 in Evo.
 

What I don't understand with Gmail is the inconsistency - if you delete
a mail in the web interface it is given a label of [Gmail]/Trash and so
appears in the Trash folder, but if you delete the mail through IMAP, it
has all its labels removed and is only visible in All Mail.  Why can't
Gmail just set the correct label on an IMAP delete and then expose that
label within IMAP as the deleted flag.

The really stupid thing is that Gmail is in effect based around virtual
folders and labels - in exactly the same way that Evo does things, but
Gmails implementation of IMAP just gets in the way.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail

[Pete Biggs]

On Sat, 2010-10-30 at 08:31 -0500, Christian wrote:
 Hi,
 
 I'm using Gmail with Evolution through IMAP. The problem is that there's
 no way to set Evolution to use the Gmail trash folder for deleted
 e-mail.

I'm not a great user of gmail - I have an account though - and my
impression was that there was no Trash folder - when you delete a mail
in Gmail it disappears.  I certainly can't see a Trash folder.  I seem
to remember there was a big song and dance when Gmail was created that
you had so much space that you need never delete a message again - just
mark it that you don't want it to be seen - 'delete' always meant that
you never wanted to see the message again.

  I'm able to set Drafts and Sent, but not Trash. Right now I have
 to move mails manually when I want to delete to the Gmail trash folder.

The same paradigm is used through out Evo - when a message is deleted it
is marked as deleted, you then have to expunge a message to get rid of
it.  That is the defined way that IMAP works.  As far as I can see IMAP
to Gmail works consistently - a message is marked as deleted, then
disappears the same as if I delete a message within Gmail.

How does deletion work for you when using Gmail through the web
interface?

P.



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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sun, 2010-10-31 at 10:47 +, Pete Biggs wrote:
 On Sat, 2010-10-30 at 08:31 -0500, Christian wrote:
  Hi,
  
  I'm using Gmail with Evolution through IMAP. The problem is that
 there's
  no way to set Evolution to use the Gmail trash folder for deleted
  e-mail.
 
 I'm not a great user of gmail - I have an account though - and my
 impression was that there was no Trash folder - when you delete a mail
 in Gmail it disappears.  I certainly can't see a Trash folder.  I seem
 to remember there was a big song and dance when Gmail was created that
 you had so much space that you need never delete a message again -
 just
 mark it that you don't want it to be seen - 'delete' always meant that
 you never wanted to see the message again.

Gmail doesn't of course have folders, it has labels, which are not the
same thing. And one of them is Trash (just look a little closer
Pete :-). Nonetheless Gmail presents its labels to IMAP clients as if
they were folders so AFAIK the point is more or less moot.

See http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=78755 and
http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=78892

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail

[Pete Biggs]

  
  I'm not a great user of gmail - I have an account though - and my
  impression was that there was no Trash folder - when you delete a mail
  in Gmail it disappears.  I certainly can't see a Trash folder.  I seem
  to remember there was a big song and dance when Gmail was created that
  you had so much space that you need never delete a message again -
  just
  mark it that you don't want it to be seen - 'delete' always meant that
  you never wanted to see the message again.
 
 Gmail doesn't of course have folders, it has labels, which are not the
 same thing. And one of them is Trash (just look a little closer
 Pete :-). Nonetheless Gmail presents its labels to IMAP clients as if
 they were folders so AFAIK the point is more or less moot.

Hmm.  But when I delete something it never gets a trash label, it just
disappears.  The same thing happens within Evo - I delete a message, it
gets marked as deleted, then quickly disappears.

 
 See http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=78755 and
 http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=78892
 
So does this answer the OP question?  When you delete a message using
IMAP it will be moved to the [Gmail]/Trash folder because that's where
its label indicates it should be?

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sun, 2010-10-31 at 15:43 +, Pete Biggs wrote:
   
   I'm not a great user of gmail - I have an account though - and my
   impression was that there was no Trash folder - when you delete a mail
   in Gmail it disappears.  I certainly can't see a Trash folder.  I seem
   to remember there was a big song and dance when Gmail was created that
   you had so much space that you need never delete a message again -
   just
   mark it that you don't want it to be seen - 'delete' always meant that
   you never wanted to see the message again.
  
  Gmail doesn't of course have folders, it has labels, which are not the
  same thing. And one of them is Trash (just look a little closer
  Pete :-). Nonetheless Gmail presents its labels to IMAP clients as if
  they were folders so AFAIK the point is more or less moot.
 
 Hmm.  But when I delete something it never gets a trash label, it just
 disappears.  The same thing happens within Evo - I delete a message, it
 gets marked as deleted, then quickly disappears.

I'm guessing that Gmail is moving it to [Gmail]/Trash, i.e.
relabelling it and removing the original label. That seems to be what
the help page is saying. Of course with a standard IMAP delete on a
non-Gmail IMAP server, there is no original label (it's just in its
folder), hence the apparent difference.

  
  See http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=78755 and
  http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=78892
  
 So does this answer the OP question?  When you delete a message using
 IMAP it will be moved to the [Gmail]/Trash folder because that's where
 its label indicates it should be?

That's my understanding, based on the help page. It wouldn't be hard to
test but I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader :-)

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail

[salahuddin pasha (salahuddin66)]

On Sun, 2010-10-31 at 11:38 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
 On Sun, 2010-10-31 at 15:43 +, Pete Biggs wrote:

I'm not a great user of gmail - I have an account though - and my
impression was that there was no Trash folder - when you delete a mail
in Gmail it disappears.  I certainly can't see a Trash folder.  I seem
to remember there was a big song and dance when Gmail was created that
you had so much space that you need never delete a message again -
just
mark it that you don't want it to be seen - 'delete' always meant that
you never wanted to see the message again.
   
   Gmail doesn't of course have folders, it has labels, which are not the
   same thing. And one of them is Trash (just look a little closer
   Pete :-). Nonetheless Gmail presents its labels to IMAP clients as if
   they were folders so AFAIK the point is more or less moot.
  
  Hmm.  But when I delete something it never gets a trash label, it just
  disappears.  The same thing happens within Evo - I delete a message, it
  gets marked as deleted, then quickly disappears.
 

Deleting a message from Evolution is similar like the mail archiving
feature we use in browser for gmail.

You will find your deleted message under this folder:

[Gmail]--All Mail


because it only removes the label.


 I'm guessing that Gmail is moving it to [Gmail]/Trash, i.e.
 relabelling it and removing the original label. That seems to be what
 the help page is saying. Of course with a standard IMAP delete on a
 non-Gmail IMAP server, there is no original label (it's just in its
 folder), hence the apparent difference.
 
   
   See http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=78755 and
   http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=78892
   
  So does this answer the OP question?  When you delete a message using
  IMAP it will be moved to the [Gmail]/Trash folder because that's where
  its label indicates it should be?
 
 That's my understanding, based on the help page. It wouldn't be hard to
 test but I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader :-)
 
 poc
 
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail

[Christian]

On Sun, 2010-10-31 at 15:43 +, Pete Biggs wrote:
   
   I'm not a great user of gmail - I have an account though - and my
   impression was that there was no Trash folder - when you delete a mail
   in Gmail it disappears.  I certainly can't see a Trash folder.  I seem
   to remember there was a big song and dance when Gmail was created that
   you had so much space that you need never delete a message again -
   just
   mark it that you don't want it to be seen - 'delete' always meant that
   you never wanted to see the message again.
  
  Gmail doesn't of course have folders, it has labels, which are not the
  same thing. And one of them is Trash (just look a little closer
  Pete :-). Nonetheless Gmail presents its labels to IMAP clients as if
  they were folders so AFAIK the point is more or less moot.
 
 Hmm.  But when I delete something it never gets a trash label, it just
 disappears.  The same thing happens within Evo - I delete a message, it
 gets marked as deleted, then quickly disappears.
 
  
  See http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=78755 and
  http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=78892
  
 So does this answer the OP question?  When you delete a message using
 IMAP it will be moved to the [Gmail]/Trash folder because that's where
 its label indicates it should be?

As far as I can see the message simply disappears when I delete it in
Evo and is not moved to the [Gmail]/Trash folder as I would want it to
be. It's not placed in the local trash either. All it would take is to
add an option in Evo where you could set where deleted mail should go
just like for Drafts and Sent. Other e-mail clients has while
Thunderbird has a custom setting having the Gmail trash folder used.
That could be the other option for Evo: A custom setting for Gmail.
 
 P.
 
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail

[Christian]

On Sun, 2010-10-31 at 10:47 +, Pete Biggs wrote:
 On Sat, 2010-10-30 at 08:31 -0500, Christian wrote:
  Hi,
  
  I'm using Gmail with Evolution through IMAP. The problem is that there's
  no way to set Evolution to use the Gmail trash folder for deleted
  e-mail.
 
 I'm not a great user of gmail - I have an account though - and my
 impression was that there was no Trash folder - when you delete a mail
 in Gmail it disappears.  I certainly can't see a Trash folder.  I seem
 to remember there was a big song and dance when Gmail was created that
 you had so much space that you need never delete a message again - just
 mark it that you don't want it to be seen - 'delete' always meant that
 you never wanted to see the message again.
 
   I'm able to set Drafts and Sent, but not Trash. Right now I have
  to move mails manually when I want to delete to the Gmail trash folder.
 
 The same paradigm is used through out Evo - when a message is deleted it
 is marked as deleted, you then have to expunge a message to get rid of
 it.  That is the defined way that IMAP works.  As far as I can see IMAP
 to Gmail works consistently - a message is marked as deleted, then
 disappears the same as if I delete a message within Gmail.

Personally I would like to be able to use straight delete where delete
means to move the message to the trash folder for the account, but I
realize it works strictly according to IMAP specs in Evo. 
 
 How does deletion work for you when using Gmail through the web
 interface?

When I delete messages in Gmail it's moved to the [Gmail]/Trash folder
from which it's permanently deleted after 30 days. So all it would take
to get it working was having an option to set the Trash folder just like
you can sett Sent and Drafts. I'm using this option in other mail
clients even the one I use on my phone where you can set which folder is
considered trash. My workaround in Evo is to move mail I want to get rid
of to the [Gmail]/Trash folder istead of using delete in Evo. 
 
 P.
 
 
 
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail

[Pete Biggs]

   
   See http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=78755 and
   http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=78892
   
  So does this answer the OP question?  When you delete a message using
  IMAP it will be moved to the [Gmail]/Trash folder because that's where
  its label indicates it should be?
 
 As far as I can see the message simply disappears when I delete it in
 Evo and is not moved to the [Gmail]/Trash folder as I would want it to
 be. It's not placed in the local trash either.

As others have said (and I've now found by experimenting) the IMAP
delete just removes the label - so the mail doesn't appear anywhere
unless you select All Mail.

This is surely a Google feature and not something that Evo can (or
should) deal with.


  All it would take is to
 add an option in Evo where you could set where deleted mail should go
 just like for Drafts and Sent.

No. Because of the way IMAP works moving mail to a Trash folder will
cause too many problems - IMAP has a method for dealing with deleted
mail (i.e. mark as deleted, then expunge) for a reason and fiddling with
it creates too many other cludges elsewhere.  There are lots of
discussions on this list in the past about it.

  Other e-mail clients has while
 Thunderbird has a custom setting having the Gmail trash folder used.
 That could be the other option for Evo: A custom setting for Gmail.

So because Gmail decides to break a standard, Evo has to program around
it?

P.


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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail

[Pete Biggs]

 
 When I delete messages in Gmail it's moved to the [Gmail]/Trash folder
 from which it's permanently deleted after 30 days. So all it would take
 to get it working was having an option to set the Trash folder just like
 you can sett Sent and Drafts.

You should be aware that the Trash folder in Evo is not a real folder
- it's effectively a search folder that shows all messages that are
currently marked for deletion (please untick View-Hide Deleted Messages
so you can see the deleted messages in their original folders) - as such
re-implementing the Trash as a real folder would take a considerable
amount of work.

Also you should consider the process that is necessary to delete a
message under the two schemes - for the Evo/IMAP model all you need to
do is a single mark as deleted operation over IMAP followed at some
later time by an expunge; for the move to trash paradigm you need to
do a copy message to folder (IMAP only has a copy operation), mark
message as deleted in original folder, expunge original folder.  The
killer is that the expunge operation is a time costly process, but if
you don't do the expunge you will be left with lots of messages marked
for deletion in the original folder.  It may be OK if you are deleting a
single message - but I often delete 100s or 1000s at a time...

P.


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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sun, 2010-10-31 at 17:54 +, Pete Biggs wrote:
 Also you should consider the process that is necessary to delete a
 message under the two schemes - for the Evo/IMAP model all you need to
 do is a single mark as deleted operation over IMAP followed at some
 later time by an expunge; for the move to trash paradigm you need to
 do a copy message to folder (IMAP only has a copy operation), mark
 message as deleted in original folder, expunge original folder.
 The
 killer is that the expunge operation is a time costly process, but
 if
 you don't do the expunge you will be left with lots of messages marked
 for deletion in the original folder.  It may be OK if you are deleting
 a
 single message - but I often delete 100s or 1000s at a time...

+1

To the OP: just to be clear, you can't expunge a single message in IMAP,
only an entire folder. This means that the paradigm of delete by moving
the message to Trash *cannot* be implemented strictly by any conforming
IMAP server, since IMAP doesn't have a move operation, as Pete says.
Or to be more precise, it can be done if that's the only form of
deletion you ever use (because the originating folder is being expunged
for every deletion). The beauty of the IMAP model is that undeletion
then becomes trivial: just remove the mark. You don't have to move
messages around or remember where they originally came from.

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail

[Ng Oon-Ee]

On Sun, 2010-10-31 at 14:42 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
 On Sun, 2010-10-31 at 17:54 +, Pete Biggs wrote:
  Also you should consider the process that is necessary to delete a
  message under the two schemes - for the Evo/IMAP model all you need to
  do is a single mark as deleted operation over IMAP followed at some
  later time by an expunge; for the move to trash paradigm you need to
  do a copy message to folder (IMAP only has a copy operation), mark
  message as deleted in original folder, expunge original folder.
  The
  killer is that the expunge operation is a time costly process, but
  if
  you don't do the expunge you will be left with lots of messages marked
  for deletion in the original folder.  It may be OK if you are deleting
  a
  single message - but I often delete 100s or 1000s at a time...
 
 +1
 
 To the OP: just to be clear, you can't expunge a single message in IMAP,
 only an entire folder. This means that the paradigm of delete by moving
 the message to Trash *cannot* be implemented strictly by any conforming
 IMAP server, since IMAP doesn't have a move operation, as Pete says.
 Or to be more precise, it can be done if that's the only form of
 deletion you ever use (because the originating folder is being expunged
 for every deletion). The beauty of the IMAP model is that undeletion
 then becomes trivial: just remove the mark. You don't have to move
 messages around or remember where they originally came from.
 
 poc

Just to add something everyone has neglected to mention so far

http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=78755

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2010-11-01 at 07:02 +0800, Ng Oon-Ee wrote:
 On Sun, 2010-10-31 at 14:42 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
  On Sun, 2010-10-31 at 17:54 +, Pete Biggs wrote:
   Also you should consider the process that is necessary to delete a
   message under the two schemes - for the Evo/IMAP model all you need to
   do is a single mark as deleted operation over IMAP followed at some
   later time by an expunge; for the move to trash paradigm you need to
   do a copy message to folder (IMAP only has a copy operation), mark
   message as deleted in original folder, expunge original folder.
   The
   killer is that the expunge operation is a time costly process, but
   if
   you don't do the expunge you will be left with lots of messages marked
   for deletion in the original folder.  It may be OK if you are deleting
   a
   single message - but I often delete 100s or 1000s at a time...
  
  +1
  
  To the OP: just to be clear, you can't expunge a single message in IMAP,
  only an entire folder. This means that the paradigm of delete by moving
  the message to Trash *cannot* be implemented strictly by any conforming
  IMAP server, since IMAP doesn't have a move operation, as Pete says.
  Or to be more precise, it can be done if that's the only form of
  deletion you ever use (because the originating folder is being expunged
  for every deletion). The beauty of the IMAP model is that undeletion
  then becomes trivial: just remove the mark. You don't have to move
  messages around or remember where they originally came from.
  
  poc
 
 Just to add something everyone has neglected to mention so far
 
 http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=78755

If you check the thread again you'll see that I did mention it.

poc

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[Evolution] Evolution and Gmail

[Christian]

Hi,

I'm using Gmail with Evolution through IMAP. The problem is that there's
no way to set Evolution to use the Gmail trash folder for deleted
e-mail. I'm able to set Drafts and Sent, but not Trash. Right now I have
to move mails manually when I want to delete to the Gmail trash folder.
Is there a solution to this, or one in the works? Evolution works nicely
now with both Google Calendar and Contacts so it would be great if it
could work with mail as well.

-- 
//Christian


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[Evolution] Evolution and Gmail

[Christian]

Hi,

I'm using Gmail with Evolution through IMAP. The problem is that there's
no way to set Evolution to use the Gmail trash folder for deleted
e-mail. I'm able to set Drafts and Sent, but not Trash. Right now I have
to move mails manually when I want to delete to the Gmail trash folder.
Is there a solution to this, or one in the works? Evolution works nicely
now with both Google Calendar and Contacts so it would be great if it
could work with mail as well.

-- 
//Christian



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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail + IMAP

[Schlaegel]

On 3/6/08, Brian Cardarella [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  I have a GMail account that I cam accessing via IMAP through Evolution.
  When I delete an email shouldn't that email be moved to the GMail IMAP
  Trash folder? Or at least be moved to Evolution's local Trash folder?
  Neither is happening. Is there something that I'm missing? Any help
  would be appreciated. Thanks.

This is how GMail IMAP works.
See http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=78755topic=12815

-Schlaegel
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[Evolution] Evolution and Gmail + IMAP

[Brian Cardarella]

I'm sorry if I'm bringing up something that has been brought up before
but I cannot find any answer and I'm not getting any replies in IRC.

I have a GMail account that I cam accessing via IMAP through Evolution.
When I delete an email shouldn't that email be moved to the GMail IMAP
Trash folder? Or at least be moved to Evolution's local Trash folder?
Neither is happening. Is there something that I'm missing? Any help
would be appreciated. Thanks.

- Brian Cardarella

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail + IMAP

[Brian Cardarella]

So maybe I'm missing something. I see how the IMAP removes the label
when you delete an email... thus the deleted email ends up in
[GMail]\All Mail   What I don't understand is how to configure Evolution
to move deleted items to the Trash folder... much how Google recommends
for the other major mail clients:
http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=78892

Is there anyway to apply the trash label to deleted Gmail emails? Or
does IMAP have rules that is downloads and forces upon the client?


On Thu, 2008-03-06 at 14:45 -0800, Schlaegel wrote:
 On 3/6/08, Brian Cardarella [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   I have a GMail account that I cam accessing via IMAP through Evolution.
   When I delete an email shouldn't that email be moved to the GMail IMAP
   Trash folder? Or at least be moved to Evolution's local Trash folder?
   Neither is happening. Is there something that I'm missing? Any help
   would be appreciated. Thanks.
 
 This is how GMail IMAP works.
 See http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=78755topic=12815
 
 -Schlaegel

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and Gmail + IMAP

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2008-03-06 at 17:29 -0500, Brian Cardarella wrote:
 I'm sorry if I'm bringing up something that has been brought up before
 but I cannot find any answer and I'm not getting any replies in IRC.
 
 I have a GMail account that I cam accessing via IMAP through Evolution.
 When I delete an email shouldn't that email be moved to the GMail IMAP
 Trash folder? Or at least be moved to Evolution's local Trash folder?
 Neither is happening. Is there something that I'm missing? Any help
 would be appreciated. Thanks.

There is no Evolution local Trash folder for IMAP mail. See for
example
http://www.go-evolution.org/FAQ#Why_do_I_have_two_Trash_folders_for_the_same_account.3F

Evo deletes mail by marking it deleted. It doesn't move it anywhere,
The Trash folder is a virtual folder (like a database view).

poc

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