Re: [Finale] TAN: What maketh a musician?
My mother-in-law would most definitely dispute your statement that there is music after rappers do their work! So since the term music is so subjective, also must the term musician be subjective. And I would most definitely not put any faith in the Grammy awards as being any real proof of musician status -- think of the many thousands of fantastic musicians for whom the grammys aren't an option because they don't make records at all. I refuse to stop calling myself musician simply because there isn't a Grammy award for local music teacher who is a community band director and hasn't been approached for any recording contracts and I refuse to start calling a record producer a musician just because there IS a category for them! There are record producers who are fantastic musicians, but there are also record producers who are simply fantastic knob-pushers. Crystal Premo wrote: On the other hand, I've come to accept that rappers ARE musicians, and that the spoken word can be considered music. Hey, there are Grammies for rappers, but not, as far as I can remember, for DJs. This is easier to accept. Rappers are sort of like vocal/lyrical percussionists. Also, they create more. There was no music, then they do their work, and there is music. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: What maketh a musician?
A co-worker insists that a deejay is a musician. I say that is a load, that at most he is perhaps an editer or producer. Can a legitimate case be made in his defense? Absolutelyl not! He does not create or recreate music, he uses other people's music. John So whose music is that scratchy sound he makes? Am I to understand that if the same hand motions are used to create a very similar scratchy sound on a guiro, he's a musician, but if he does it on an LP, he's not? -- Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: What maketh a musician?
Seriously, though, assuming you can't get to a performance, what would help you? You needn't assume that. We have one or two venues for this sort of entertainment in NYC. Maybe if I go and see it in person, my opinion will change. I guess right now it just seems too loaded with stuff created by others. I guess I should check it out. Crystal Premo [EMAIL PROTECTED]/[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: What maketh a musician?
Well, I've heard several french hhh ... sorry... french hhh ... sorry ... I meant french hhhorn players that one could barely call musicians... but we all try and some are more talented at what we do than others. DJ's which are good can make you move and can communicate with other musicians with scratching, playing beats and working on tempos, etc. There's no point in writing them off as non-musicians when what comes out of their instruments is music. Unless you want to have a cow about it. There are people that don't consider Jazz music at all, and others that don't find any reason to listen to folk songs. I would classify a record-playing DJ as a percussionist. You hit a note on the piano and you're a musician. But all you're doing is placing a finger here and there. You lower the needle onto a record and the world says: Hey! Anybody can do that! when in fact it has always been the way we make these movements that matter. In music, intent defines much more than mere physics. Liudas - Original Message - From: Crystal Premo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 2:54 PM Subject: [Finale] TAN: What maketh a musician? A co-worker insists that a deejay is a musician. I say that is a load, that at most he is perhaps an editer or producer. Can a legitimate case be made in his defense? Crystal Premo [EMAIL PROTECTED]/[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: What maketh a musician?
It was either on this list or on orchestralist where a couple of years ago I participated in a discussion of what a composer is, and ultimately (since there is no universally agreed upon test that a composer must pass) there was no concensus other than a person who puts sounds together can call himself/herself a composer. The same can be said for musician -- a person who puts live sounds together. But we each can have personal standards that we choose to adhere to, so that I can state that a person who simply noodles on a midi keyboard and prints whatever comes out through a computer is absolutely NOT a composer. And you can state that anybody who simply uses prerecorded sounds to put together a live sound (even if it means scratching a disk back and forth on a turntable) is absolutely NOT a musician in your mind. But if you don't think a deejay is a musician, perhaps you would favor us with your list of criteria which a person must fulfill to cross your threshhold and be considered a musician? Crystal Premo wrote: A co-worker insists that a deejay is a musician. I say that is a load, that at most he is perhaps an editer or producer. Can a legitimate case be made in his defense? Crystal Premo [EMAIL PROTECTED]/[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale . -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: What maketh a musician?
If Grammy awards are not an authority, what makes you say your mother-in-law is? No logic there, sorry. Liudas - Original Message - From: David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Crystal Premo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 12:58 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] TAN: What maketh a musician? My mother-in-law would most definitely dispute your statement that there is music after rappers do their work! So since the term music is so subjective, also must the term musician be subjective. And I would most definitely not put any faith in the Grammy awards as being any real proof of musician status -- think of the many thousands of fantastic musicians for whom the grammys aren't an option because they don't make records at all. I refuse to stop calling myself musician simply because there isn't a Grammy award for local music teacher who is a community band director and hasn't been approached for any recording contracts and I refuse to start calling a record producer a musician just because there IS a category for them! There are record producers who are fantastic musicians, but there are also record producers who are simply fantastic knob-pushers. Crystal Premo wrote: On the other hand, I've come to accept that rappers ARE musicians, and that the spoken word can be considered music. Hey, there are Grammies for rappers, but not, as far as I can remember, for DJs. This is easier to accept. Rappers are sort of like vocal/lyrical percussionists. Also, they create more. There was no music, then they do their work, and there is music. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: What maketh a musician?
At 10:08 PM 8/6/03 -0400, Crystal Premo wrote: I can be very loose about who I consider a musician, but I think it really splits some hairs to call a playback device an instrument. Please post an audio file of your turntable performance. :) I just can't get my head around that concept. Don't try to get your head around it. Listen to it first. A lot of things sound bogus in concept. the music has already been created by the time he gets there. No ... the *sounds* have been created, as with any sampling method, not the music. In turntabling, very *small* pieces are used, rocked, scratched, played backward and forward, to create new patterns not found at all in the original, and architectures never conceived by the maker of the original sounds. Like any instrument, it's just a source of raw materials to compose with. The whole 50 years of sampling creations have met dismissal in some quarters. Live sampling is the latest to be dismissed. Seriously, though, assuming you can't get to a performance, what would help you? Consider that the new generation of live sampling technology uses MP3 players with shuffle/scratch/rotation features run on turntable surfaces, but not using actual vinyl (have a look at Zzounds.com for some interesting new turntabling instruments). Deejays sample and load bits pieces of vinyl into this equipment. These newer devices approach increasingly the use of sampling on, say, an ordinary keyboard. Ordinary keyboards use pre-built samples, many taken of 'real' instruments. Does this deny the keyboard player the title of musician? If the turntablist played the same samples from a keyboard, wind controller, or Midi guitar? If the keyboardist played a turntable with 'real' instrumental samples? At one point does the turntablist/deejay cease being or start being a musician? Finally, read this enthusiast's review, the second paragraph of which shows that the culture of turntabling is pretty well developed as true musical performance: http://www.dustedmagazine.com/features/131 But more than anything, listen, and if you want an experience, find a club to watch and listen. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: What maketh a musician?
A co-worker insists that a deejay is a musician. I say that is a load, that at most he is perhaps an editer or producer. Can a legitimate case be made in his defense? Absolutelyl not! He does not create or recreate music, he uses other people's music. And for the anal, the true test is whether a DJ must join the AFofM. I suspect that the union would have him shot for taking work away from live musicians. On the other hand, I've come to accept that rappers ARE musicians, and that the spoken word can be considered music. Hey, there are Grammies for rappers, but not, as far as I can remember, for DJs. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] TAN: What maketh a musician?
A co-worker insists that a deejay is a musician. I say that is a load, that at most he is perhaps an editer or producer. Can a legitimate case be made in his defense? Crystal Premo [EMAIL PROTECTED]/[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: What maketh a musician?
On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, at 04:27 PM, John Howell wrote: A co-worker insists that a deejay is a musician. I say that is a load, that at most he is perhaps an editer or producer. Can a legitimate case be made in his defense? Absolutelyl not! He does not create or recreate music, he uses other people's music. John, I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about. We're not talking about Clear Channel radio DJs and such, we're talking about serious turntablists like DJ Olive and Q-Bert and Kid Koala. I'm happy to accept Darcy's correction, given that I've never heard the term turntablist, don't recognize a single one of those names, and am very unlikely ever to be in a location where I would run into one of them. I know, ignorance is no excuse, but in this case it may be closer to bliss! John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: What maketh a musician?
I didn't mean to imply that my mother is an authority, only to show that there is at least one person who would disagree. I definitely don't look to my mother-in-law as an authority in most matters, but her outlook on various aspects of modern life is interesting at times. Mr. Liudas Motekaitis wrote: If Grammy awards are not an authority, what makes you say your mother-in-law is? No logic there, sorry. Liudas - Original Message - From: David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Crystal Premo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 12:58 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] TAN: What maketh a musician? My mother-in-law would most definitely dispute your statement that there is music after rappers do their work! So since the term music is so subjective, also must the term musician be subjective. And I would most definitely not put any faith in the Grammy awards as being any real proof of musician status -- think of the many thousands of fantastic musicians for whom the grammys aren't an option because they don't make records at all. I refuse to stop calling myself musician simply because there isn't a Grammy award for local music teacher who is a community band director and hasn't been approached for any recording contracts and I refuse to start calling a record producer a musician just because there IS a category for them! There are record producers who are fantastic musicians, but there are also record producers who are simply fantastic knob-pushers. Crystal Premo wrote: On the other hand, I've come to accept that rappers ARE musicians, and that the spoken word can be considered music. Hey, there are Grammies for rappers, but not, as far as I can remember, for DJs. This is easier to accept. Rappers are sort of like vocal/lyrical percussionists. Also, they create more. There was no music, then they do their work, and there is music. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale . -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: What maketh a musician?
On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, at 04:27 PM, John Howell wrote: A co-worker insists that a deejay is a musician. I say that is a load, that at most he is perhaps an editer or producer. Can a legitimate case be made in his defense? Absolutelyl not! He does not create or recreate music, he uses other people's music. John, I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about. We're not talking about Clear Channel radio DJs and such, we're talking about serious turntablists like DJ Olive and Q-Bert and Kid Koala. And for the anal, the true test is whether a DJ must join the AFofM. I suspect that the union would have him shot for taking work away from live musicians. I don't know about true test but there are certainly a number of turntablists who are members of the AFM. Hey, there are Grammies for rappers, but not, as far as I can remember, for DJs. There are Grammies for producers, who are often DJs. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston MA ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: What maketh a musician?
On the other hand, I've come to accept that rappers ARE musicians, and that the spoken word can be considered music. Hey, there are Grammies for rappers, but not, as far as I can remember, for DJs. This is easier to accept. Rappers are sort of like vocal/lyrical percussionists. Also, they create more. There was no music, then they do their work, and there is music. Crystal Premo [EMAIL PROTECTED]/[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: What maketh a musician?
But if you don't think a deejay is a musician, perhaps you would favor us with your list of criteria which a person must fulfill to cross your threshhold and be considered a musician? I guess my biggest problem with calling a deejay or a turntablist a musician is that somebody else already made the sounds that he is using to create his music. I can be very loose about who I consider a musician, but I think it really splits some hairs to call a playback device an instrument. I'll grant that a deejay injects his own spirit into what he does, and that there is artistry involved, but I think the music has already been created by the time he gets there. I think a musician has to sing or play an instrument. A conductor is very important to an orchestra and to the music that they are performing, but a deejay ... I just can't get my head around that concept. Crystal Premo [EMAIL PROTECTED]/[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: What maketh a musician?
At 08:54 AM 8/6/03 -0400, Crystal Premo wrote: A co-worker insists that a deejay is a musician. I say that is a load, that at most he is perhaps an editer or producer. Can a legitimate case be made in his defense? Absolutely, assuming your co-worker is talking about a turntablist (or the digital version thereof, with MP3 turntable emulators) or sometimes scratch-artist, not a play-talk-play radio deejay. The creation of new compositions from samples is now a time-honored tradition. The earliest were John Cage's. Jim Tenney's remarkable Blue Suede dates to 1964. My own first sample piece dates to 1972 (and was premiered only this May in Amsterdam). Nic Collins and most importantly John Oswald brought sample pieces to a fine art with his plunderphonics in the 1980s. My radio show co-host does a sample piece from previous radio shows every four weeks (http://kalvos.org/bestses.html), and a reworked compilation is being presented at the Electric Rainbow EA Music Festival at Dartmouth College on August 23. The deejay version of sample came about 20 years ago. Turntable artists began doing this recomposition live, and it's by now as advanced as improvisational composers in other genres. It's not only amazing to hear, it's remarkable to watch, as a unique kind of choreography. Distinguished American composer Jon Appleton went to study turntabling in Japan for a year in the late 1990s. Composition through sampling has really grown up, live or recorded. I highly recommended it -- although if you listen to rap or hip-hop or trance, you've already some of it in the creation of the dance-beat backgrounds. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: What maketh a musician?
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: The deejay version of sample came about 20 years ago. Turntable artists began doing this recomposition live, and it's by now as advanced as improvisational composers in other genres. It's not only amazing to hear, it's remarkable to watch, as a unique kind of choreography. Distinguished American composer Jon Appleton went to study turntabling in Japan for a year in the late 1990s. There's an amazing little documentary 'Scratch' (possibly available at your video store) - that convinced me ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
