Legal straw man (Lott, Edward))
Question ( 11 a.) on ATF Form 4473 (Firearms Transaction Record Part I - Over-the-Counter) says: Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? (YES or NO) Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. (See instructions for question 11. a.) The instructions for question 11. a. say: Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, you are the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing thwe firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself. (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party. ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer NO to question 11. a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer YES to question 11. a. However you may not transfer a firearm to any person that you know or have reason to believe is prohibited under U.S.C. 18 (g), (n), or (x). - From the above I draw the following conclusions: 1. You CAN buy a firearm for yourself (providing you are not a prohibited person) 2. You CAN buy a firearm as a GIFT for anyone (wife, husband, friend) as long as the recipient is not a prohibited person. 3. You CAN NOT take money from another person to buy a firearm for that person. 4. Prohibited persons are defined by U.S.C. 18 (g), (n), or (x). Although not directly from the above; a Straw Purchase of a firearm is the purchase of a firearm by a person who meets the legal requirements to purchase a firearm; who gives or sells that firearm to a prohibited person as defined by U.S.C. 18 (g), (n), or (x). Ed. Lott ___ To post, send message to Firearmsregprof@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/firearmsregprof Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Legal straw man (Lott, Edward))
In the example we have been using, the financier is *NEVER* the actual transferee/buyer because HE never takes possession of the gun or fills out a Form 4473. Only the intended transferee does that. The gun goes from selling transferor's/owner (to seller's FFL, if one is used) to transferee's FFL *then* to the TRUE transferee/buyer. The finder/financier is not in the chain of transfers. Seller's FFL (if used) books the gun out *to* the buyer's FFL. Perfectly legal. Otherwise the owner/transferee ships it directly to the buyer/transferee's FFL -- also a perfectly legal transaction. Buyer's FFL books the gun *into HIS inventory* (Bound Book). *Then* he books it out *to * the ACTUAL transferee/buyer. *Not to the finder/financier.* Prefectly legal. The financier is at best a finder OOH and a banker OTOH. All records are accurate. This is not the hypothethical transaction that the Q and A was written for but it fits. On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 11:55 AM, Ed. Lott e...@lott.com wrote: *Question ( 11 a.) on ATF Form 4473 (Firearms Transaction Record Part I - Over-the-Counter) says: *Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? (YES or NO) Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. (See instructions for question 11. a.) *The instructions for question 11. a. say: *Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, you are the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing thwe firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself. (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party. ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer NO to question 11. a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer YES to question 11. a. However you may not transfer a firearm to any person that you know or have reason to believe is prohibited under U.S.C. 18 (g), (n), or (x). - *From the above I draw the following conclusions: *1. ** **You CAN buy a firearm for yourself (providing you are not a prohibited person) 2.** **You CAN buy a firearm as a GIFT for anyone (wife, husband, friend) as long as the recipient is not a prohibited person. 3.** **You CAN NOT take money from another person to buy a firearm for that person. 4.** **Prohibited persons are defined by U.S.C. 18 (g), (n), or (x). Although not directly from the above; a Straw Purchase of a firearm is the purchase of a firearm by a person who meets the legal requirements to purchase a firearm; who gives or sells that firearm to a prohibited person as defined by U.S.C. 18 (g), (n), or (x). Ed. Lott ___ To post, send message to Firearmsregprof@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/firearmsregprof Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. -- ** Professor Joseph Olson, J.D.(*Hon*. Duke), LL.M.(*Tax*. Florida) o651-523-2142 Hamline University School of Law (MS-D2037) f 651-523-2236 St. Paul, MN 55113-1235 c612-865-7956 jol...@hamliine.edu http://law.hamline.edu/constitutional_law/joseph_olson.html ___ To post, send message to Firearmsregprof@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/firearmsregprof Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Legal straw man
Since Tom is a legal purchaser in his state, this is an example of a perfectly legal straw man purchase. So there is anti-gun Big Lie number #3, that all straw man purchases are illegal. Methinks there is an opportunity here for an OAQ (occasionally asked questions, or oak): anti-gun Big Lies and the truth. The key to that is the definition of purchase versus taking delivery. If you walk into a gun shop with your spouse, parent, sibling, friend, or child (of legal age, of course) and give the shop money for the purchase of a firearm but the other person with you takes delivery and fills out the Form 4473, and is the subject of the NICS check, nothing illegal happened. It's a straw purchase only with respect to the person who delivered the cash. That's a far cry from you delivering the cash AND completing the forms (upon which you would have to lie in this instance), getting the NICS check, and then handing the weapon over to someone else in violation of the law and the Form 4473. BIG difference. ***GRJ*** ___ To post, send message to Firearmsregprof@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/firearmsregprof Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Legal straw man
*What you describe is NOT a strawman purchase at all as top anyone.* The strawman refers to using another person to *deceive* the dealer and THE GOVERNMENT by making the fake appear as the transferee to the dealer and to the government so that the NICS check is run on the fakeer and the paperwork shows a transfer to the faker. The government is concerned that the person who fills out the ATF Form 4473 and undergoes the NICS check is the actual buyer/transferee of the firearm. That is, the person takes and holds possession if the gun. The government is *not* concerned with the financing, absent fraud, of the transaction. On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Greg Jacobs grjtw...@earthlink.net wrote: Since Tom is a legal purchaser in his state, this is an example of a perfectly legal straw man purchase. So there is anti-gun Big Lie number #3, that all straw man purchases are illegal. Methinks there is an opportunity here for an OAQ (occasionally asked questions, or oak): anti-gun Big Lies and the truth. The key to that is the definition of purchase versus taking delivery. If you walk into a gun shop with your spouse, parent, sibling, friend, or child (of legal age, of course) and give the shop money for the purchase of a firearm but the other person with you takes delivery and fills out the Form 4473, and is the subject of the NICS check, nothing illegal happened. It's a straw purchase only with respect to the person who delivered the cash. That's a far cry from you delivering the cash AND completing the forms (upon which you would have to lie in this instance), getting the NICS check, and then handing the weapon over to someone else in violation of the law and the Form 4473. BIG difference. ***GRJ*** ___ To post, send message to Firearmsregprof@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/firearmsregprof Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. -- ** Professor Joseph Olson, J.D.(*Hon*. Duke), LL.M.(*Tax*. Florida) o651-523-2142 Hamline University School of Law (MS-D2037) f 651-523-2236 St. Paul, MN 55113-1235 c612-865-7956 jol...@hamliine.edu http://law.hamline.edu/constitutional_law/joseph_olson.html ___ To post, send message to Firearmsregprof@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/firearmsregprof Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Legal straw man
Thanks, Professor. That was kind of what I meant. "Strawman" in the ATF context has taken on a different meaning than the one we read about in Contracts 101.***GRJ***-Original Message-
From: "Olson, Joseph E." <jol...@hamline.edu>
Sent: May 8, 2013 2:14 PM
To: Greg Jacobs <grjtw...@earthlink.net>
Cc: "Firearms Reg, List" <firearmsregprof@lists.ucla.edu>
Subject: Re: Legal straw man
*What you describe is NOT a "strawman" purchase at all as top anyone.*The strawman refers to using another person to *deceive* the dealer and THEGOVERNMENT by making the fake appear as the transferee to the dealer and tothe government so that the NICS check is run on the fakeer and thepaperwork shows a transfer to the faker.The government is concerned that the person who fills out the ATF Form 4473and undergoes the NICS check is the "actual buyer/transferee" of thefirearm. That is, the person takes and holds possession if the gun. Thegovernment is *not* concerned with the financing, absent fraud, of thetransaction.On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Greg Jacobs <grjtw...@earthlink.net> wrote: Since Tom is a legal purchaser in his state, this is an example of a perfectly legal "straw man" purchase. So there is anti-gun Big Lie number #3, that all straw man purchases are illegal. Methinks there is an opportunity here for an OAQ ("occasionally asked questions", or "oak"): anti-gun Big Lies and the truth. The key to that is the definition of "purchase" versus "taking delivery". If you walk into a gun shop with your spouse, parent, sibling, friend, or child (of legal age, of course) and give the shop money for the "purchase" of a firearm but the other person with you "takes delivery" and fills out the Form 4473, and is the subject of the NICS check, nothing illegal happened. It's a straw purchase only with respect to the person who delivered the cash. That's a far cry from you delivering the cash AND completing the forms (upon which you would have to lie in this instance), getting the NICS check, and then handing the weapon over to someone else in violation of the law and the Form 4473. BIG difference. ***GRJ*** ___ To post, send message to Firearmsregprof@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/firearmsregprof Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.-- **Professor Joseph Olson, J.D.(*Hon*. Duke), LL.M.(*Tax*. Florida) o651-523-2142Hamline University School of Law (MS-D2037)f 651-523-2236St. Paul, MN 55113-1235 c612-865-7956jol...@hamliine.eduhttp://law.hamline.edu/constitutional_law/joseph_olson.html
___
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