Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advanced Weather updates
I wrote -Original Message- From: Vivian Meazza [mailto:vivian.mea...@lineone.net] Sent: 02 March 2013 17:32 To: 'FlightGear developers discussions' Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advanced Weather updates James Turner wrote: On 1 Mar 2013, at 07:53, Renk Thorsten thorsten.i.r...@jyu.fi wrote: One problemhere is that rain textures are still orphaned (i.e. don't move in the wind with the clouds) - I'm running out of ideas here - my Nasal moving code creates frame spacing issues, Vivian's C++ moving code patch wasn't accepted, so I'd appreciate a helping hand from C++ coders before the next release. I need someone to reset my brain on this, explain to me what functionality is required, show me the Nasal code and Vivian's version, and so on. I'd forgotten about that. I think my patch is long since gone - probably lost it here at least 1 hdd ago. I'll scratch around a bit and see if anything remains. Vivian Well gitorious is good for something! The patches still exist! I've put them here if anyone wants to do something with them: https://www.dropbox.com/home/Public/Patches/MoveModels They worked, and have no bugs that I'm aware of. They were rejected it was alleged that there are ways of doing it better, but no one could be bothered to actually do the necessary work. I don't know if they still apply. Vivian -- Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_feb ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advanced Weather updates
On 3 Mar 2013, at 10:29, Vivian Meazza vivian.mea...@lineone.net wrote: Well gitorious is good for something! The patches still exist! I've put them here if anyone wants to do something with them: https://www.dropbox.com/home/Public/Patches/MoveModels Dropbox won't let me in, can you email me the patches? James -- Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_feb ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advanced Weather updates
James Turner On 3 Mar 2013, at 10:29, Vivian Meazza vivian.mea...@lineone.net wrote: Well gitorious is good for something! The patches still exist! I've put them here if anyone wants to do something with them: https://www.dropbox.com/home/Public/Patches/MoveModels Dropbox won't let me in, can you email me the patches? Dropbox won't let you in! Why not? Did you offend it in some way? Have you been black balled? Vivian -- Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_feb ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advanced Weather updates
On Sunday 03 March 2013 11:56:44 Vivian Meazza wrote: James Turner On 3 Mar 2013, at 10:29, Vivian Meazza vivian.mea...@lineone.net wrote: Well gitorious is good for something! The patches still exist! I've put them here if anyone wants to do something with them: https://www.dropbox.com/home/Public/Patches/MoveModels Dropbox won't let me in, can you email me the patches? Dropbox won't let you in! Why not? Did you offend it in some way? Have you been black balled? Same here. I just get some Sign in page. Stefan -- Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_feb ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advanced Weather updates
On Sun, 3 Mar 2013 10:29:35 -, Vivian wrote in message 000301ce17fa$0169d920$043d8b60$@lineone.net: Well gitorious is good for something! The patches still exist! I've put them here if anyone wants to do something with them: https://www.dropbox.com/home/Public/Patches/MoveModels ..do you have an e.g. gitorius url for these? Dropbox requires signing up for an account and that I|we run a binary blob as a deamon to watch my dropbox folder that I|we may not try to reverse-engineer, AFAIU their TOS at https://www.dropbox.com/terms , maybe the reason nobody has done anything with your patches. They worked, and have no bugs that I'm aware of. They were rejected it was alleged that there are ways of doing it better, but no one could be bothered to actually do the necessary work. I don't know if they still apply. Vivian -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. -- Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_feb ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advanced Weather updates
Am 2013-03-03 13:38, schrieb Arnt Karlsen: ..do you have an e.g. gitorius url for these? Dropbox requires signing up for an account and that I|we run a binary blob as a deamon to watch my dropbox folder that I|we may not try to reverse-engineer, AFAIU their TOS at https://www.dropbox.com/terms , maybe the reason nobody has done anything with your patches. Nothing against the request for gitorious urls, but Dropbox allows sharing folder/files without requiring to sign up, eg: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/tqrmrvuc1r2s5s9/0kMNaNIifH Tom -- Thomas Geymayer www.tomprogs.at / C-Forum und Tutorial: www.proggen.org Student of Computer Science @ Graz University of Technology --- Austria -- Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_feb ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advanced Weather updates
Thomas wrote Am 2013-03-03 12:56, schrieb Vivian Meazza: James Turner On 3 Mar 2013, at 10:29, Vivian Meazza vivian.mea...@lineone.net wrote: Well gitorious is good for something! The patches still exist! I've put them here if anyone wants to do something with them: https://www.dropbox.com/home/Public/Patches/MoveModels Dropbox won't let me in, can you email me the patches? Dropbox won't let you in! Why not? Did you offend it in some way? Have you been black balled? You've posted your private Link... Perhaps this is a better one: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/js2hm48d5amsjzy/GIhyixKoBa/Patches/MoveModels Vivian -- Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_feb ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advanced Weather updates
On 1 Mar 2013, at 07:53, Renk Thorsten thorsten.i.r...@jyu.fi wrote: However, the change does mean that if you leave the visibility at cruise altitudes of airliners at 10 km, you will not get to see many clouds regardless of how the cloud visibility range is set (because they now respect the real visibility setting in addition), so this is potentially an issue for Basic Weather users. If this is a show-stopper, then we may need to undo the changes, but fading to alpha is by far the fastest way to deal with heavily fogged clouds. This feels like a moderately large issue to me, because out of the box, we select basic weather, and hence we're going to get bug reports about clouds not appearing. We could make basic weather drive the real visibility based on altitude, but then we're moving away from 'basic weather does what you set'. We could give basic weather sea-level and altitude visibility and interpolate between them, which I guess is what advanced weather does? And of course if we drive 'real' visibility in that way, we're back to upsetting the performance of people who are using visibility range to modulate performance. Suggestion: rename cloud 'visibility' distance to 'draw distance' (since it's in the rendering dialog anyway), to make it clear it's nothing to do with weather / environment in basic weather, have clouds ignore environment/visibility, and simply use draw distance (as before) in advanced weather, cloud use the minimum of both, and get fogged, with nice results in low vis situations. This assumes distinguishing weather models i the cloud code is possible, of course. James -- Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_feb ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advanced Weather updates
On 1 Mar 2013, at 07:53, Renk Thorsten thorsten.i.r...@jyu.fi wrote: One problemhere is that rain textures are still orphaned (i.e. don't move in the wind with the clouds) - I'm running out of ideas here - my Nasal moving code creates frame spacing issues, Vivian's C++ moving code patch wasn't accepted, so I'd appreciate a helping hand from C++ coders before the next release. I need someone to reset my brain on this, explain to me what functionality is required, show me the Nasal code and Vivian's version, and so on. James -- Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_feb ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advanced Weather updates
This feels like a moderately large issue to me, because out of the box, we select basic weather, and hence we're going to get bug reports about clouds not appearing. We could make basic weather drive the real visibility based on altitude, but then we're moving away from 'basic weather does what you set'. We could give basic weather sea-level and altitude visibility and interpolate between them, which I guess is what advanced weather does? Well, the problem arises because a number of issues have so far been handled in a peculiar way: * Basic Weather 'out of the box' assumes, when driven with METAR, that the reported visibility has no altitude dependence (I think) - which isn't particularly realistic in the first place * clouds, unlike practically all other objects, do not really respect visibility the same way as other objects (they are fogged in the default rendering scheme at twice the nominal visibility, so a similar issue exists outside Atmospheric Light Scattering and clouds disappear before their rendering cutoff hits... * ... but Atmospheric Light scattering, unlike the default scheme, gives you always a rather clear skydome once you clear the ground haze layer as long as no extra high-altitude haze is declared, so in essence the visibility above the lowest layer certainly looks visually very high (this is intended since it gives you a realistic appearance of very clear air high up and the illusion of having several hundred km visibility) One could fix either of those: Changing aloft visibility in Basic Weather leads to memory issues. Not fading clouds leads to bad behaviour in low visibility. And fogging the skydome to agree with the set visibility leads to a completely unrealistic visual impression at high altitudes - 10 km forward visibility at airliner cruise altitude outside of cloud layers simply do not occur. So I'm not quite sure what the intended behaviour should be. Obviously, if you expect to see objects 70 km away with 10 km visibility set, there's something fishy with your expectation as well. And saying that you want to use visibility for memory management but otherwise have a realistic visual impression of objects 100 km away is also not quite a honest base expectation... Suggestion: rename cloud 'visibility' distance to 'draw distance' (since it's in the rendering dialog anyway), to make it clear it's nothing to do with weather / environment Sounds good to me - make that perhaps 'max. draw distance'. in basic weather, have clouds ignore environment/visibility, and simply use draw distance (as before) in advanced weather, cloud use the minimum of both, and get fogged, with nice results in low vis situations. That's in essence asking to code a dependence on the active weather system into the shader, and that's something which imo smells like bad design. The shader shouldn't have to care how the properties which drive it are created. Can a Basic Weather user perhaps test if there is a substantial problem at all, i.e. if 3d clouds disappear as compared with expectations when running Basic Weather and Atmospheric Light Scattering? Maybe we're trying to come up with a fix for a rather theoretical issue... * Thorsten -- Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_feb ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advanced Weather updates
I need someone to reset my brain on this, explain to me what functionality is required, show me the Nasal code and Vivian's version, and so on. Rain layers and Cirrus clouds are not shader-generated 3d stacks of sprites like the 3d clouds but normal, Nasal-spawned models. 3d clouds are moved by changing the transformation matrix (I guess). But we have no way of moving Nasal-spawned objects except updating their position from a Nasal loop every frame (we do have hardcoded movement for AI-objects, but Nasal-spawned objects cannot use that for some reason - so the Nasal tanker has such a per-frame update loop). It turns out that per-frame position updates for O(20-30) objects from Nasal is already too much to keep a nice and smooth framerate above 20 fps. So I de-activated the Nasal loop. The functionality needed is that, like AI objects, Nasal-spawned models can get a heading and a velocity and then move automatically as specified. Vivian, do you still have the patch somewhere? It's somewhere on my old computer... * Thorsten -- Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_feb ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advanced Weather updates
James Turner wrote: On 1 Mar 2013, at 07:53, Renk Thorsten thorsten.i.r...@jyu.fi wrote: One problemhere is that rain textures are still orphaned (i.e. don't move in the wind with the clouds) - I'm running out of ideas here - my Nasal moving code creates frame spacing issues, Vivian's C++ moving code patch wasn't accepted, so I'd appreciate a helping hand from C++ coders before the next release. I need someone to reset my brain on this, explain to me what functionality is required, show me the Nasal code and Vivian's version, and so on. I'd forgotten about that. I think my patch is long since gone - probably lost it here at least 1 hdd ago. I'll scratch around a bit and see if anything remains. Vivian -- Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_feb ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
