Re: [Flightgear-users] Hardware recommendations for multi-screen sim

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Sat, 21 May 2016 23:18:09 +0100, Viktor wrote in message 
:

> Hi Arnt,
> 
> Thanks for the FPV suggestion. I have considered it before but decided
> against it. The requirement is to build a realistic two-seat ASK21

..to train instructors?  2 seats makes good sense then.
To train student pilots, you only need the students part 
of the cockpit, the instructor can do the instruction over 
the net like we did on the net fly-ins.  In the same room,
use a screen for every view you|the club etc wanna see,
you're only limited by the hardware you have handy. ;o)

> cockpit with linked flight controls at their correct location and
> working instrument panels. 

...with tangible switches etc that you touch even in the dark.  
No conflict there, fpv/vr goggles will yield even more realistic 
views than your 8 screen cage, once you track your hands etc.

> With the FPV goggles I assume that you
> won't be able to see what your hands are doing, and I'm certain that
> the instructor in the back won't be able to see what the student in
> the front is doing either. These two problems make a head-mount
> display unsuitable for the club 

..you of course will need to track (and show or simulate) _anything_ 
you wanna show on your screen(s), e.g. using web cameras to track 
hands and feet, using e.g. gstreamer to overlay webcam video on FG 
video, or model, track and/or simulate said hands and feet and show
everything in FG.

> but I might get one for myself at
> some point as it sounds pretty good for home use.

..the sooner the better, will help you make a better simulator. :o)

..but do try before you buy, e.g. my HPHD in a wonderful idea, 72 degree
FOV and a nice big 1280x800 screen, totally destroyed by requiring me to
squint at the screen at 22cm.  
Use ~4.5+ reading glasses to focus at the horizon if you have perfect vision.

> Cheers,
> Vik
> 
> On 19 May 2016 at 21:16, Arnt Karlsen  wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 12:08:38 +0100, Viktor wrote in message
> > :
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I'm planning to build a glider simulator for my gliding club, to
> > > be used for instruction. Since gliders have great visibility from
> > > the cockpit, the plan would be to use multiple projectors to
> > > display as much of the view as possible, not only out to the
> > > sides but top and bottom as well. I'm guestimating that this
> > > would require using up to 8 projectors. The projectors I have in
> > > mind have 1280x800 pixel native resolution.
> >
> >
> > ..an alternative idea: FPV "VR" goggles with head tracking, e.g.
> >
> > http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__97842__Quanum_DIY_FPV_Goggle_V2_Pro.html
> > plus
> >
> > http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__90078__Quanum_DIY_FPV_Goggle_V2_Add_On_Kit.html
> >
> > ...or cheaper and higher resolution goggles from e.g.:
> > http://www.banggood.com/Wholesale-FPV-System--c-2734.html
> >
> > ...or use your cell phone with https://vr.google.com/cardboard/ ;o)
> >
> > ..the bonus is you'll have a compact system that fits _every_ plane
> > modelled in FlightGear, not just the one 8 screen glider cave you
> > build at your glider club.
> >
> >
> > ..word of caution: Some _buggy_ FPV goggles like HeadPlay HD makes
> > you focus on the screen at e.g. 220mm, rather than at the horizon,
> > e.g. I need +4.5 reading glasses in my HPHD and I can fly out 5km
> > LOS (line-of-sight) and still see 5cm thick wings.
> > Verify your goggles has you focus on the horizon, and you'll enjoy
> > them.
> >
> > > The first of many problems is that I have last built a desktop PC
> > > around 2002 (been using laptops since) and thus have no hands-on
> > > experience with modern gaming hardware. What configuration should
> > > I go for? One high end machine stuffed with cards to provide all
> > > the displays? Multiple networked display slaves? How many
> > > displays per machine? What graphics cards should I go for? What
> > > would provide acceptable performance in this setup?
> > >
> > > Also has anyone implemented projector edge blending using
> > > Flightgear before? Unless anyone has better ideas I was thinking
> > > about using Linux with a flexible window manager such as
> > > Windowmaker to overlay a transparent OpenGL window on each
> > > display to provide the mask while keeping the input focus on
> > > Flightgear. The overlay would be a small custom OpenGL program
> > > that loads some kind of image (which I would edit in Gimp). The
> > > overlay would cause a performance penalty but having tried it on
> > > my laptop I've found it to be only about 5fps at 1920x1200
> > > resolution.
> > >
> > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. I realise that building a
> > > spherical display system like this has numerous challenges to
> > > overcome. I was planning on getting one PC and maybe three
> > > projectors initially, then 

Re: [Flightgear-users] Hardware recommendations for multi-screen sim

[Viktor Radnai]

Hi Arnt,

Thanks for the FPV suggestion. I have considered it before but decided
against it. The requirement is to build a realistic two-seat ASK21 cockpit
with linked flight controls at their correct location and working
instrument panels. With the FPV goggles I assume that you won't be able to
see what your hands are doing, and I'm certain that the instructor in the
back won't be able to see what the student in the front is doing either.
These two problems make a head-mount display unsuitable for the club but I
might get one for myself at some point as it sounds pretty good for home
use.

Cheers,
Vik

On 19 May 2016 at 21:16, Arnt Karlsen  wrote:

> On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 12:08:38 +0100, Viktor wrote in message
> :
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'm planning to build a glider simulator for my gliding club, to be
> > used for instruction. Since gliders have great visibility from the
> > cockpit, the plan would be to use multiple projectors to display as
> > much of the view as possible, not only out to the sides but top and
> > bottom as well. I'm guestimating that this would require using up to
> > 8 projectors. The projectors I have in mind have 1280x800 pixel
> > native resolution.
>
>
> ..an alternative idea: FPV "VR" goggles with head tracking, e.g.
>
> http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__97842__Quanum_DIY_FPV_Goggle_V2_Pro.html
> plus
>
> http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__90078__Quanum_DIY_FPV_Goggle_V2_Add_On_Kit.html
>
> ...or cheaper and higher resolution goggles from e.g.:
> http://www.banggood.com/Wholesale-FPV-System--c-2734.html
>
> ...or use your cell phone with https://vr.google.com/cardboard/ ;o)
>
> ..the bonus is you'll have a compact system that fits _every_ plane
> modelled in FlightGear, not just the one 8 screen glider cave you
> build at your glider club.
>
>
> ..word of caution: Some _buggy_ FPV goggles like HeadPlay HD makes
> you focus on the screen at e.g. 220mm, rather than at the horizon,
> e.g. I need +4.5 reading glasses in my HPHD and I can fly out 5km
> LOS (line-of-sight) and still see 5cm thick wings.
> Verify your goggles has you focus on the horizon, and you'll enjoy
> them.
>
> > The first of many problems is that I have last built a desktop PC
> > around 2002 (been using laptops since) and thus have no hands-on
> > experience with modern gaming hardware. What configuration should I
> > go for? One high end machine stuffed with cards to provide all the
> > displays? Multiple networked display slaves? How many displays per
> > machine? What graphics cards should I go for? What would provide
> > acceptable performance in this setup?
> >
> > Also has anyone implemented projector edge blending using Flightgear
> > before? Unless anyone has better ideas I was thinking about using
> > Linux with a flexible window manager such as Windowmaker to overlay a
> > transparent OpenGL window on each display to provide the mask while
> > keeping the input focus on Flightgear. The overlay would be a small
> > custom OpenGL program that loads some kind of image (which I would
> > edit in Gimp). The overlay would cause a performance penalty but
> > having tried it on my laptop I've found it to be only about 5fps at
> > 1920x1200 resolution.
> >
> > Any suggestions would be appreciated. I realise that building a
> > spherical display system like this has numerous challenges to
> > overcome. I was planning on getting one PC and maybe three projectors
> > initially, then play around with the alignment and masking. Then if
> > we decide that it isn't feasible, we can always fall back to a more
> > traditional three or 5 projector arch. I'm asking for hardware
> > recommendations in advance so I don't end up buying kit we would not
> > be able to use in the end.
> >
> > Thanks for your help in advance.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Vik
>
>
> --
> ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
> ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
>   Scenarios always come in sets of three:
>   best case, worst case, and just in case.
>
>
> --
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>



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Re: [Flightgear-users] Hardware recommendations for multi-screen sim

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 12:08:38 +0100, Viktor wrote in message 
:

> Hi all,
> 
> I'm planning to build a glider simulator for my gliding club, to be
> used for instruction. Since gliders have great visibility from the
> cockpit, the plan would be to use multiple projectors to display as
> much of the view as possible, not only out to the sides but top and
> bottom as well. I'm guestimating that this would require using up to
> 8 projectors. The projectors I have in mind have 1280x800 pixel
> native resolution.


..an alternative idea: FPV "VR" goggles with head tracking, e.g.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__97842__Quanum_DIY_FPV_Goggle_V2_Pro.html
plus 
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__90078__Quanum_DIY_FPV_Goggle_V2_Add_On_Kit.html

...or cheaper and higher resolution goggles from e.g.:
http://www.banggood.com/Wholesale-FPV-System--c-2734.html

...or use your cell phone with https://vr.google.com/cardboard/ ;o)

..the bonus is you'll have a compact system that fits _every_ plane 
modelled in FlightGear, not just the one 8 screen glider cave you 
build at your glider club.


..word of caution: Some _buggy_ FPV goggles like HeadPlay HD makes
you focus on the screen at e.g. 220mm, rather than at the horizon,
e.g. I need +4.5 reading glasses in my HPHD and I can fly out 5km
LOS (line-of-sight) and still see 5cm thick wings.  
Verify your goggles has you focus on the horizon, and you'll enjoy 
them.

> The first of many problems is that I have last built a desktop PC
> around 2002 (been using laptops since) and thus have no hands-on
> experience with modern gaming hardware. What configuration should I
> go for? One high end machine stuffed with cards to provide all the
> displays? Multiple networked display slaves? How many displays per
> machine? What graphics cards should I go for? What would provide
> acceptable performance in this setup?
> 
> Also has anyone implemented projector edge blending using Flightgear
> before? Unless anyone has better ideas I was thinking about using
> Linux with a flexible window manager such as Windowmaker to overlay a
> transparent OpenGL window on each display to provide the mask while
> keeping the input focus on Flightgear. The overlay would be a small
> custom OpenGL program that loads some kind of image (which I would
> edit in Gimp). The overlay would cause a performance penalty but
> having tried it on my laptop I've found it to be only about 5fps at
> 1920x1200 resolution.
> 
> Any suggestions would be appreciated. I realise that building a
> spherical display system like this has numerous challenges to
> overcome. I was planning on getting one PC and maybe three projectors
> initially, then play around with the alignment and masking. Then if
> we decide that it isn't feasible, we can always fall back to a more
> traditional three or 5 projector arch. I'm asking for hardware
> recommendations in advance so I don't end up buying kit we would not
> be able to use in the end.
> 
> Thanks for your help in advance.
> 
> Cheers,
> Vik


-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.

--
Mobile security can be enabling, not merely restricting. Employees who
bring their own devices (BYOD) to work are irked by the imposition of MDM
restrictions. Mobile Device Manager Plus allows you to control only the
apps on BYO-devices by containerizing them, leaving personal data untouched!
https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/304595813;131938128;j
___
Flightgear-users mailing list
Flightgear-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-users

Re: [Flightgear-users] Hardware recommendations for multi-screen sim

[Viktor Radnai]

Hi Anders,

I have been getting a couple of responses on the forum although no doubt I
would have gotten more on the -devel list. I think I will have more
development questions in the future, relating to things like improvements
to glider launching. I will be taking that opportunity to ask for more
opinions on the hardware too.
Cheers,
Vik


On 14 Apr 2016 10:06, "Anders Gidenstam"  wrote:

> On Tue, 12 Apr 2016, Viktor Radnai wrote:
>
> > Thanks for getting back. I thought I give this a try because I prefer
> > mailing lists to forums. I was wondering what happened to this list, it
> was
> > reasonably active mid-last year but since then there were hardly any
> mails
> > sent. On the other hand the development list is really active, but this
> > question would not be appropriate there.
>
> OTOH, at least some of the people you want to reach are on the -devel list
> but not (frequently?) on the forum (namely, the developers with current
> insight into the FlightGear/OSG graphics pipeline and its multiscreen
> capabilities).
>
> IMHO the amount of traffic on the -devel list isn't high enough to warrant
> a very strict separation of development v.s. more technical user
> questions, such as this one.
>
> To me this list has seemed very quiet for years.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Anders
> --
> ---
> Anders Gidenstam
> WWW: http://github.com/andgi
>   http://www.gidenstam.org/FlightGear/
>
>
> --
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Re: [Flightgear-users] Hardware recommendations for multi-screen sim

[Viktor Radnai]

Thanks for getting back. I thought I give this a try because I prefer
mailing lists to forums. I was wondering what happened to this list, it was
reasonably active mid-last year but since then there were hardly any mails
sent. On the other hand the development list is really active, but this
question would not be appropriate there.

I have reposted my question to the forum as you suggested:
https://forum.flightgear.org/viewtopic.php?f=24=29345

Cheers,
Vik

On 12 April 2016 at 16:39, m.her...@gmx.de  wrote:

>
> I think not many people read this list.
> consider posting it in the forum , too:
>
> https://forum.flightgear.org
>
>
>
>
> --
> Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications
> Manager
> Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple
> tiers of
> your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and
> reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial!
> https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/302982198;130105516;z
> ___
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-users
>



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Re: [Flightgear-users] Hardware recommendations for multi-screen sim

[m.her...@gmx.de]

I think not many people read this list.
consider posting it in the forum , too:

https://forum.flightgear.org



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