Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 11:21 PM, David Barbour dmbarb...@gmail.com wrote: I think you're being optimistic about human rationality there. (I disagree. QED.) Hmm, well, I'm afraid that indeed I would have only been right if we were all consistently rational. And definitely we are not. I find interesting how you proved me wrong by being rational about our irrationality though. Best -- Fernando Cacciola SciSoft Consulting, Founder http://www.scisoft-consulting.com ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
On further review the person in question admitted being human...one of God's bots he says. I'm trying to convince him that God wants more than bots. I just realized the religious discussion was likely created by a bot. Sorry. John ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
Why math/logic loses, munchhausen trilemma: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnchhausen_trilemma On Apr 7, 2013 8:20 PM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: On further review the person in question admitted being human...one of God's bots he says. I'm trying to convince him that God wants more than bots. I just realized the religious discussion was likely created by a bot. Sorry. John ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins (Lt and other DSLs)
I looked at Lt. Reminds me of John Orwant's Extensible Graphical Game Generator. If you like s-expressions, there are other DSLs for games from stanford and australia. Are you envisioning a DSL for NLP? On Apr 7, 2013 9:27 PM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: What is the Peano of NLP? Humanity? I'll check previous messages. On Apr 7, 2013 8:25 PM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: Why math/logic loses, munchhausen trilemma: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnchhausen_trilemma On Apr 7, 2013 8:20 PM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: On further review the person in question admitted being human...one of God's bots he says. I'm trying to convince him that God wants more than bots. I just realized the religious discussion was likely created by a bot. Sorry. John ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins (Lt and other DSLs)
It would seem like NLP should be based on phonemes, not written language. One cannot say what the name of God is, because written Hebrew lacks vowels. We should go with phonemes, I believe. On Apr 7, 2013 9:36 PM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: I looked at Lt. Reminds me of John Orwant's Extensible Graphical Game Generator. If you like s-expressions, there are other DSLs for games from stanford and australia. Are you envisioning a DSL for NLP? On Apr 7, 2013 9:27 PM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: What is the Peano of NLP? Humanity? I'll check previous messages. On Apr 7, 2013 8:25 PM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: Why math/logic loses, munchhausen trilemma: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnchhausen_trilemma On Apr 7, 2013 8:20 PM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: On further review the person in question admitted being human...one of God's bots he says. I'm trying to convince him that God wants more than bots. I just realized the religious discussion was likely created by a bot. Sorry. John ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
Most likely your personal skills at natural language are insufficient to understand Revelation in the Bible, like mine were until I spent lots of time learning. Now I can predict the current Pope Francis will eventually help create the 7 nation Islamic Caliphate with 3 extra-national military powers like Hamas in Rev. 13, 17:3. You must understand natural language well if you want to program it well. Many grad students hack out an NLP project that works at an uninspiring level. To go beyond the state of the art, you must learn to understand beyond state of the art. Claims that the world has progressed beyond some past century are true for technology but not in human behavior. People still have wars large and small. Some of the worst human behavior can be seen in courts during wars between family members, and some of that behavior comes from lawyers. Human behavior can only be improved by everyone pursuing the absolute perfection of God and his human form Jesus Christ, the Creator. We must go beyond the state of the art churches, to learn from the true church which Jesus practiced with His students, before He left and they quit doing much of what He did and taught. Because his first graduates ignored His teaching of equal status under Him instead pursuing positions over others and their money, today we have inherited that culture instead of Jesus' life where it is possible to be fed directly by God's miracles without need of money. So I propose a return from today's advanced culture to Jesus' absolute perfection. www.freetom.info.truechurch In view of the human spiritual awakening possible that way, computers are only a temporary support until we get there. Watch videos archived at www.sidroth.org some of which are lame but others are impressive showing what is happening now giving the idea the perfect culture of Jesus' church is possible. Love Absolute Truth, Kirk W. Fraser On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 10:23 PM, Steve Taylor s...@ozemail.com.au wrote: Charlie Derr wrote: Nevertheless I'm finding some of this conversation truly fascinating (though I'm having a little trouble figuring out what is truth and what isn't). I'm just waiting for Kirk to mention Atlantis or the Rosicrucians. It feels like it could be any moment... Steve __**_ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/**listinfo/fonchttp://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc -- Kirk W. Fraser http://freetom.info/TrueChurch - Replace the fraud churches with the true church. http://congressionalbiblestudy.org - Fix America by first fixing its Christian foundation. http://freetom.info - Example of False Justice common in America ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
! Karl On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.comwrote: Most likely your personal skills at natural language are insufficient to understand Revelation in the Bible, like mine were until I spent lots of time learning. Now I can predict the current Pope Francis will eventually help create the 7 nation Islamic Caliphate with 3 extra-national military powers like Hamas in Rev. 13, 17:3. You must understand natural language well if you want to program it well. Many grad students hack out an NLP project that works at an uninspiring level. To go beyond the state of the art, you must learn to understand beyond state of the art. Claims that the world has progressed beyond some past century are true for technology but not in human behavior. People still have wars large and small. Some of the worst human behavior can be seen in courts during wars between family members, and some of that behavior comes from lawyers. Human behavior can only be improved by everyone pursuing the absolute perfection of God and his human form Jesus Christ, the Creator. We must go beyond the state of the art churches, to learn from the true church which Jesus practiced with His students, before He left and they quit doing much of what He did and taught. Because his first graduates ignored His teaching of equal status under Him instead pursuing positions over others and their money, today we have inherited that culture instead of Jesus' life where it is possible to be fed directly by God's miracles without need of money. So I propose a return from today's advanced culture to Jesus' absolute perfection. www.freetom.info.truechurch In view of the human spiritual awakening possible that way, computers are only a temporary support until we get there. Watch videos archived at www.sidroth.org some of which are lame but others are impressive showing what is happening now giving the idea the perfect culture of Jesus' church is possible. Love Absolute Truth, Kirk W. Fraser On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 10:23 PM, Steve Taylor s...@ozemail.com.au wrote: Charlie Derr wrote: Nevertheless I'm finding some of this conversation truly fascinating (though I'm having a little trouble figuring out what is truth and what isn't). I'm just waiting for Kirk to mention Atlantis or the Rosicrucians. It feels like it could be any moment... Steve __**_ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/**listinfo/fonchttp://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc -- Kirk W. Fraser http://freetom.info/TrueChurch - Replace the fraud churches with the true church. http://congressionalbiblestudy.org - Fix America by first fixing its Christian foundation. http://freetom.info - Example of False Justice common in America ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
I once hear it said that Jesus didn't tell us to be perfect, instead he told us to mature and bear good fruit. Have you? On Apr 6, 2013 5:32 AM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.com wrote: Most likely your personal skills at natural language are insufficient to understand Revelation in the Bible, like mine were until I spent lots of time learning. Now I can predict the current Pope Francis will eventually help create the 7 nation Islamic Caliphate with 3 extra-national military powers like Hamas in Rev. 13, 17:3. You must understand natural language well if you want to program it well. Many grad students hack out an NLP project that works at an uninspiring level. To go beyond the state of the art, you must learn to understand beyond state of the art. Claims that the world has progressed beyond some past century are true for technology but not in human behavior. People still have wars large and small. Some of the worst human behavior can be seen in courts during wars between family members, and some of that behavior comes from lawyers. Human behavior can only be improved by everyone pursuing the absolute perfection of God and his human form Jesus Christ, the Creator. We must go beyond the state of the art churches, to learn from the true church which Jesus practiced with His students, before He left and they quit doing much of what He did and taught. Because his first graduates ignored His teaching of equal status under Him instead pursuing positions over others and their money, today we have inherited that culture instead of Jesus' life where it is possible to be fed directly by God's miracles without need of money. So I propose a return from today's advanced culture to Jesus' absolute perfection. www.freetom.info.truechurch In view of the human spiritual awakening possible that way, computers are only a temporary support until we get there. Watch videos archived at www.sidroth.org some of which are lame but others are impressive showing what is happening now giving the idea the perfect culture of Jesus' church is possible. Love Absolute Truth, Kirk W. Fraser On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 10:23 PM, Steve Taylor s...@ozemail.com.au wrote: Charlie Derr wrote: Nevertheless I'm finding some of this conversation truly fascinating (though I'm having a little trouble figuring out what is truth and what isn't). I'm just waiting for Kirk to mention Atlantis or the Rosicrucians. It feels like it could be any moment... Steve __**_ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/**listinfo/fonchttp://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc -- Kirk W. Fraser http://freetom.info/TrueChurch - Replace the fraud churches with the true church. http://congressionalbiblestudy.org - Fix America by first fixing its Christian foundation. http://freetom.info - Example of False Justice common in America ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
Sorry. I meant heard. Obviously I am imperfect. I have read Foucault's Pendulum, however. Maybe we should start quoting it instead of the Bible. On Apr 6, 2013 9:36 AM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: I once hear it said that Jesus didn't tell us to be perfect, instead he told us to mature and bear good fruit. Have you? On Apr 6, 2013 5:32 AM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.com wrote: Most likely your personal skills at natural language are insufficient to understand Revelation in the Bible, like mine were until I spent lots of time learning. Now I can predict the current Pope Francis will eventually help create the 7 nation Islamic Caliphate with 3 extra-national military powers like Hamas in Rev. 13, 17:3. You must understand natural language well if you want to program it well. Many grad students hack out an NLP project that works at an uninspiring level. To go beyond the state of the art, you must learn to understand beyond state of the art. Claims that the world has progressed beyond some past century are true for technology but not in human behavior. People still have wars large and small. Some of the worst human behavior can be seen in courts during wars between family members, and some of that behavior comes from lawyers. Human behavior can only be improved by everyone pursuing the absolute perfection of God and his human form Jesus Christ, the Creator. We must go beyond the state of the art churches, to learn from the true church which Jesus practiced with His students, before He left and they quit doing much of what He did and taught. Because his first graduates ignored His teaching of equal status under Him instead pursuing positions over others and their money, today we have inherited that culture instead of Jesus' life where it is possible to be fed directly by God's miracles without need of money. So I propose a return from today's advanced culture to Jesus' absolute perfection. www.freetom.info.truechurch In view of the human spiritual awakening possible that way, computers are only a temporary support until we get there. Watch videos archived at www.sidroth.org some of which are lame but others are impressive showing what is happening now giving the idea the perfect culture of Jesus' church is possible. Love Absolute Truth, Kirk W. Fraser On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 10:23 PM, Steve Taylor s...@ozemail.com.auwrote: Charlie Derr wrote: Nevertheless I'm finding some of this conversation truly fascinating (though I'm having a little trouble figuring out what is truth and what isn't). I'm just waiting for Kirk to mention Atlantis or the Rosicrucians. It feels like it could be any moment... Steve __**_ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/**listinfo/fonchttp://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc -- Kirk W. Fraser http://freetom.info/TrueChurch - Replace the fraud churches with the true church. http://congressionalbiblestudy.org - Fix America by first fixing its Christian foundation. http://freetom.info - Example of False Justice common in America ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
My favorite Umberto Eco quote from Foucault's Pendulum is vous etes fou (sorry english keyboard).▲ On Apr 6, 2013 9:53 AM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: Sorry. I meant heard. Obviously I am imperfect. I have read Foucault's Pendulum, however. Maybe we should start quoting it instead of the Bible. On Apr 6, 2013 9:36 AM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: I once hear it said that Jesus didn't tell us to be perfect, instead he told us to mature and bear good fruit. Have you? On Apr 6, 2013 5:32 AM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.com wrote: Most likely your personal skills at natural language are insufficient to understand Revelation in the Bible, like mine were until I spent lots of time learning. Now I can predict the current Pope Francis will eventually help create the 7 nation Islamic Caliphate with 3 extra-national military powers like Hamas in Rev. 13, 17:3. You must understand natural language well if you want to program it well. Many grad students hack out an NLP project that works at an uninspiring level. To go beyond the state of the art, you must learn to understand beyond state of the art. Claims that the world has progressed beyond some past century are true for technology but not in human behavior. People still have wars large and small. Some of the worst human behavior can be seen in courts during wars between family members, and some of that behavior comes from lawyers. Human behavior can only be improved by everyone pursuing the absolute perfection of God and his human form Jesus Christ, the Creator. We must go beyond the state of the art churches, to learn from the true church which Jesus practiced with His students, before He left and they quit doing much of what He did and taught. Because his first graduates ignored His teaching of equal status under Him instead pursuing positions over others and their money, today we have inherited that culture instead of Jesus' life where it is possible to be fed directly by God's miracles without need of money. So I propose a return from today's advanced culture to Jesus' absolute perfection. www.freetom.info.truechurch In view of the human spiritual awakening possible that way, computers are only a temporary support until we get there. Watch videos archived at www.sidroth.org some of which are lame but others are impressive showing what is happening now giving the idea the perfect culture of Jesus' church is possible. Love Absolute Truth, Kirk W. Fraser On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 10:23 PM, Steve Taylor s...@ozemail.com.auwrote: Charlie Derr wrote: Nevertheless I'm finding some of this conversation truly fascinating (though I'm having a little trouble figuring out what is truth and what isn't). I'm just waiting for Kirk to mention Atlantis or the Rosicrucians. It feels like it could be any moment... Steve __**_ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/**listinfo/fonchttp://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc -- Kirk W. Fraser http://freetom.info/TrueChurch - Replace the fraud churches with the true church. http://congressionalbiblestudy.org - Fix America by first fixing its Christian foundation. http://freetom.info - Example of False Justice common in America ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
When I was studying Revelation in the 1980s. We thought this same scripture referred to the European Union. We also thought that Jesus had to return by 1988, because that was one generation past when the Jews returned to Israel in 1948. It seems that god has a way of overturning predictions. Some answered questions: http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/ On Apr 6, 2013 5:32 AM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.com wrote: Most likely your personal skills at natural language are insufficient to understand Revelation in the Bible, like mine were until I spent lots of time learning. Now I can predict the current Pope Francis will eventually help create the 7 nation Islamic Caliphate with 3 extra-national military powers like Hamas in Rev. 13, 17:3. You must understand natural language well if you want to program it well. Many grad students hack out an NLP project that works at an uninspiring level. To go beyond the state of the art, you must learn to understand beyond state of the art. Claims that the world has progressed beyond some past century are true for technology but not in human behavior. People still have wars large and small. Some of the worst human behavior can be seen in courts during wars between family members, and some of that behavior comes from lawyers. Human behavior can only be improved by everyone pursuing the absolute perfection of God and his human form Jesus Christ, the Creator. We must go beyond the state of the art churches, to learn from the true church which Jesus practiced with His students, before He left and they quit doing much of what He did and taught. Because his first graduates ignored His teaching of equal status under Him instead pursuing positions over others and their money, today we have inherited that culture instead of Jesus' life where it is possible to be fed directly by God's miracles without need of money. So I propose a return from today's advanced culture to Jesus' absolute perfection. www.freetom.info.truechurch In view of the human spiritual awakening possible that way, computers are only a temporary support until we get there. Watch videos archived at www.sidroth.org some of which are lame but others are impressive showing what is happening now giving the idea the perfect culture of Jesus' church is possible. Love Absolute Truth, Kirk W. Fraser On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 10:23 PM, Steve Taylor s...@ozemail.com.au wrote: Charlie Derr wrote: Nevertheless I'm finding some of this conversation truly fascinating (though I'm having a little trouble figuring out what is truth and what isn't). I'm just waiting for Kirk to mention Atlantis or the Rosicrucians. It feels like it could be any moment... Steve ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc -- Kirk W. Fraser http://freetom.info/TrueChurch - Replace the fraud churches with the true church. http://congressionalbiblestudy.org - Fix America by first fixing its Christian foundation. http://freetom.info - Example of False Justice common in America ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
On 4/6/2013 10:59 AM, John Carlson wrote: When I was studying Revelation in the 1980s. We thought this same scripture referred to the European Union. We also thought that Jesus had to return by 1988, because that was one generation past when the Jews returned to Israel in 1948. It seems that god has a way of overturning predictions. read something recently that asserted that the prediction still held, only that the generation was 80 years rather than 40, thus putting the end-event somewhere around 2028 (with the rebuilding of the temple and tribulation and so on happening before this). it still remains to be seen how things will turn out. Some answered questions: http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/ On Apr 6, 2013 5:32 AM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.com mailto:overcomer@gmail.com wrote: Most likely your personal skills at natural language are insufficient to understand Revelation in the Bible, like mine were until I spent lots of time learning. Now I can predict the current Pope Francis will eventually help create the 7 nation Islamic Caliphate with 3 extra-national military powers like Hamas in Rev. 13, 17:3. You must understand natural language well if you want to program it well. Many grad students hack out an NLP project that works at an uninspiring level. To go beyond the state of the art, you must learn to understand beyond state of the art. Claims that the world has progressed beyond some past century are true for technology but not in human behavior. People still have wars large and small. Some of the worst human behavior can be seen in courts during wars between family members, and some of that behavior comes from lawyers. Human behavior can only be improved by everyone pursuing the absolute perfection of God and his human form Jesus Christ, the Creator. We must go beyond the state of the art churches, to learn from the true church which Jesus practiced with His students, before He left and they quit doing much of what He did and taught. Because his first graduates ignored His teaching of equal status under Him instead pursuing positions over others and their money, today we have inherited that culture instead of Jesus' life where it is possible to be fed directly by God's miracles without need of money. So I propose a return from today's advanced culture to Jesus' absolute perfection. www.freetom.info.truechurch In view of the human spiritual awakening possible that way, computers are only a temporary support until we get there. Watch videos archived at www.sidroth.org http://www.sidroth.org some of which are lame but others are impressive showing what is happening now giving the idea the perfect culture of Jesus' church is possible. Love Absolute Truth, Kirk W. Fraser On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 10:23 PM, Steve Taylor s...@ozemail.com.au mailto:s...@ozemail.com.au wrote: Charlie Derr wrote: Nevertheless I'm finding some of this conversation truly fascinating (though I'm having a little trouble figuring out what is truth and what isn't). I'm just waiting for Kirk to mention Atlantis or the Rosicrucians. It feels like it could be any moment... Steve ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org mailto:fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc -- Kirk W. Fraser http://freetom.info/TrueChurch - Replace the fraud churches with the true church. http://congressionalbiblestudy.org - Fix America by first fixing its Christian foundation. http://freetom.info - Example of False Justice common in America ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org mailto:fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
The Lord will return like a thief in the night: http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/5-2.htm Is this predictable? Is there more than one return? Jews believe in one Messiah. Christians believe in 2 Messiahs (Jesus and his return). Anyone for 3 or 4 or more? On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 11:12 AM, BGB cr88...@gmail.com wrote: On 4/6/2013 10:59 AM, John Carlson wrote: When I was studying Revelation in the 1980s. We thought this same scripture referred to the European Union. We also thought that Jesus had to return by 1988, because that was one generation past when the Jews returned to Israel in 1948. It seems that god has a way of overturning predictions. read something recently that asserted that the prediction still held, only that the generation was 80 years rather than 40, thus putting the end-event somewhere around 2028 (with the rebuilding of the temple and tribulation and so on happening before this). it still remains to be seen how things will turn out. Some answered questions: http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/ On Apr 6, 2013 5:32 AM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.com wrote: Most likely your personal skills at natural language are insufficient to understand Revelation in the Bible, like mine were until I spent lots of time learning. Now I can predict the current Pope Francis will eventually help create the 7 nation Islamic Caliphate with 3 extra-national military powers like Hamas in Rev. 13, 17:3. You must understand natural language well if you want to program it well. Many grad students hack out an NLP project that works at an uninspiring level. To go beyond the state of the art, you must learn to understand beyond state of the art. Claims that the world has progressed beyond some past century are true for technology but not in human behavior. People still have wars large and small. Some of the worst human behavior can be seen in courts during wars between family members, and some of that behavior comes from lawyers. Human behavior can only be improved by everyone pursuing the absolute perfection of God and his human form Jesus Christ, the Creator. We must go beyond the state of the art churches, to learn from the true church which Jesus practiced with His students, before He left and they quit doing much of what He did and taught. Because his first graduates ignored His teaching of equal status under Him instead pursuing positions over others and their money, today we have inherited that culture instead of Jesus' life where it is possible to be fed directly by God's miracles without need of money. So I propose a return from today's advanced culture to Jesus' absolute perfection. www.freetom.info.truechurch In view of the human spiritual awakening possible that way, computers are only a temporary support until we get there. Watch videos archived at www.sidroth.org some of which are lame but others are impressive showing what is happening now giving the idea the perfect culture of Jesus' church is possible. Love Absolute Truth, Kirk W. Fraser On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 10:23 PM, Steve Taylor s...@ozemail.com.au wrote: Charlie Derr wrote: Nevertheless I'm finding some of this conversation truly fascinating (though I'm having a little trouble figuring out what is truth and what isn't). I'm just waiting for Kirk to mention Atlantis or the Rosicrucians. It feels like it could be any moment... Steve ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc -- Kirk W. Fraser http://freetom.info/TrueChurch - Replace the fraud churches with the true church. http://congressionalbiblestudy.org - Fix America by first fixing its Christian foundation. http://freetom.info - Example of False Justice common in America ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing listfonc@vpri.orghttp://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
On Sat, Apr 06, 2013 at 12:08:35PM -0500, John Carlson wrote: The Lord will return like a thief in the night: http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/5-2.htm Is this predictable? Is there more than one return? Jews believe in one Messiah. Christians believe in 2 Messiahs (Jesus and his return). Anyone for 3 or 4 or more? Can the list moderator please terminate this thread? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
And by 2028, we will be living 120 years or more, which will extend the end-event even more. On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 11:12 AM, BGB cr88...@gmail.com wrote: On 4/6/2013 10:59 AM, John Carlson wrote: When I was studying Revelation in the 1980s. We thought this same scripture referred to the European Union. We also thought that Jesus had to return by 1988, because that was one generation past when the Jews returned to Israel in 1948. It seems that god has a way of overturning predictions. read something recently that asserted that the prediction still held, only that the generation was 80 years rather than 40, thus putting the end-event somewhere around 2028 (with the rebuilding of the temple and tribulation and so on happening before this). it still remains to be seen how things will turn out. Some answered questions: http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/ On Apr 6, 2013 5:32 AM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.com wrote: Most likely your personal skills at natural language are insufficient to understand Revelation in the Bible, like mine were until I spent lots of time learning. Now I can predict the current Pope Francis will eventually help create the 7 nation Islamic Caliphate with 3 extra-national military powers like Hamas in Rev. 13, 17:3. You must understand natural language well if you want to program it well. Many grad students hack out an NLP project that works at an uninspiring level. To go beyond the state of the art, you must learn to understand beyond state of the art. Claims that the world has progressed beyond some past century are true for technology but not in human behavior. People still have wars large and small. Some of the worst human behavior can be seen in courts during wars between family members, and some of that behavior comes from lawyers. Human behavior can only be improved by everyone pursuing the absolute perfection of God and his human form Jesus Christ, the Creator. We must go beyond the state of the art churches, to learn from the true church which Jesus practiced with His students, before He left and they quit doing much of what He did and taught. Because his first graduates ignored His teaching of equal status under Him instead pursuing positions over others and their money, today we have inherited that culture instead of Jesus' life where it is possible to be fed directly by God's miracles without need of money. So I propose a return from today's advanced culture to Jesus' absolute perfection. www.freetom.info.truechurch In view of the human spiritual awakening possible that way, computers are only a temporary support until we get there. Watch videos archived at www.sidroth.org some of which are lame but others are impressive showing what is happening now giving the idea the perfect culture of Jesus' church is possible. Love Absolute Truth, Kirk W. Fraser On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 10:23 PM, Steve Taylor s...@ozemail.com.au wrote: Charlie Derr wrote: Nevertheless I'm finding some of this conversation truly fascinating (though I'm having a little trouble figuring out what is truth and what isn't). I'm just waiting for Kirk to mention Atlantis or the Rosicrucians. It feels like it could be any moment... Steve ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc -- Kirk W. Fraser http://freetom.info/TrueChurch - Replace the fraud churches with the true church. http://congressionalbiblestudy.org - Fix America by first fixing its Christian foundation. http://freetom.info - Example of False Justice common in America ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing listfonc@vpri.orghttp://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
On 6 April 2013 18:09, Eugen Leitl eu...@leitl.org wrote: On Sat, Apr 06, 2013 at 12:08:35PM -0500, John Carlson wrote: The Lord will return like a thief in the night: http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/5-2.htm Is this predictable? Is there more than one return? Jews believe in one Messiah. Christians believe in 2 Messiahs (Jesus and his return). Anyone for 3 or 4 or more? Can the list moderator please terminate this thread? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Indeed, this is a list about the Foundations of New Computing; please stay on-topic. -- http://rrt.sc3d.org ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
On 4/6/2013 12:13 PM, Reuben Thomas wrote: On 6 April 2013 18:09, Eugen Leitl eu...@leitl.org mailto:eu...@leitl.org wrote: On Sat, Apr 06, 2013 at 12:08:35PM -0500, John Carlson wrote: The Lord will return like a thief in the night: http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/5-2.htm Is this predictable? Is there more than one return? Jews believe in one Messiah. Christians believe in 2 Messiahs (Jesus and his return). Anyone for 3 or 4 or more? Can the list moderator please terminate this thread? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Indeed, this is a list about the Foundations of New Computing; please stay on-topic. yeah... it is possibly a notable property that most topics on the internet tend to diverge into a debate about religion and/or politics (regardless of the original topic in question). but, elsewhere, one can then find people into getting into inflamed debates about other things as well, including in computing: UTF-16 vs UTF-32; RGBA vs DXT; little-endian vs big-endian in file-formats; x86 vs ARM; choice of programming language; ... so, in a way, people arguing about stuff like this may be inevitable. one assertion that can be made here is that people seem to be overzealous in their choice and application of universals, often without a lot of evidence to support their choices. so, one thing ends up being true to one person and false to another, if for no other reason than differences in terms of basic assumptions, and a tendency to regard these assumptions as absolute (rather than, say, as probabilities). well, along with an excess of people making value judgements, say, rather than things being more in terms of cost/benefit or similar, ... but, sometimes it seems that regardless of ones' choice of basic assumptions, someone somewhere will still take issue with it. expecting everyone to agree on much of anything is probably unrealistic... ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
Excuse me, but when did this list turn into a forum for religious /bible discussion? Can we get back to issues in computing, please? Thank you, Kim Rose Viewpoints Research Viewpoints Research is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization dedicated to improving powerful ideas education for the world's children and advancing the state of systems research and personal computing. Please visit us online at www.vpri.org On Apr 7, 2013, at 2:08 AM, John Carlson wrote: The Lord will return like a thief in the night: http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/5-2.htm Is this predictable? Is there more than one return? Jews believe in one Messiah. Christians believe in 2 Messiahs (Jesus and his return). Anyone for 3 or 4 or more? On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 11:12 AM, BGB cr88...@gmail.com wrote: On 4/6/2013 10:59 AM, John Carlson wrote: When I was studying Revelation in the 1980s. We thought this same scripture referred to the European Union. We also thought that Jesus had to return by 1988, because that was one generation past when the Jews returned to Israel in 1948. It seems that god has a way of overturning predictions. read something recently that asserted that the prediction still held, only that the generation was 80 years rather than 40, thus putting the end-event somewhere around 2028 (with the rebuilding of the temple and tribulation and so on happening before this). it still remains to be seen how things will turn out. Some answered questions: http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/ On Apr 6, 2013 5:32 AM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.com wrote: Most likely your personal skills at natural language are insufficient to understand Revelation in the Bible, like mine were until I spent lots of time learning. Now I can predict the current Pope Francis will eventually help create the 7 nation Islamic Caliphate with 3 extra-national military powers like Hamas in Rev. 13, 17:3. You must understand natural language well if you want to program it well. Many grad students hack out an NLP project that works at an uninspiring level. To go beyond the state of the art, you must learn to understand beyond state of the art. Claims that the world has progressed beyond some past century are true for technology but not in human behavior. People still have wars large and small. Some of the worst human behavior can be seen in courts during wars between family members, and some of that behavior comes from lawyers. Human behavior can only be improved by everyone pursuing the absolute perfection of God and his human form Jesus Christ, the Creator. We must go beyond the state of the art churches, to learn from the true church which Jesus practiced with His students, before He left and they quit doing much of what He did and taught. Because his first graduates ignored His teaching of equal status under Him instead pursuing positions over others and their money, today we have inherited that culture instead of Jesus' life where it is possible to be fed directly by God's miracles without need of money. So I propose a return from today's advanced culture to Jesus' absolute perfection. www.freetom.info.truechurch In view of the human spiritual awakening possible that way, computers are only a temporary support until we get there. Watch videos archived at www.sidroth.org some of which are lame but others are impressive showing what is happening now giving the idea the perfect culture of Jesus' church is possible. Love Absolute Truth, Kirk W. Fraser On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 10:23 PM, Steve Taylor s...@ozemail.com.au wrote: Charlie Derr wrote: Nevertheless I'm finding some of this conversation truly fascinating (though I'm having a little trouble figuring out what is truth and what isn't). I'm just waiting for Kirk to mention Atlantis or the Rosicrucians. It feels like it could be any moment... Steve ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc -- Kirk W. Fraser http://freetom.info/TrueChurch - Replace the fraud churches with the true church. http://congressionalbiblestudy.org - Fix America by first fixing its Christian foundation. http://freetom.info - Example of False Justice common in America ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 2:58 PM, BGB cr88...@gmail.com wrote: expecting everyone to agree on much of anything is probably unrealistic... Yet there is one thing we can all agree on... that we cannot all agree on one thing. -- Fernando Cacciola SciSoft Consulting, Founder http://www.scisoft-consulting.com ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
On 05/04/2013, at 7:19 AM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.com wrote: The main source of invention is not math wins as described on http://www.vpri.org/html/work/ifnct.htm since the world would be speaking math if it were really the source of inspiring more inventions that improve the world's standard of living. Math helps add precision to tasks that involve counting. Attempting to move from counting to logic such as in statistics sometimes leads to false conclusions, especially if logic is not given priority over the tools of math. For human value, readability is required, so computer language improvements must focus on natural language. Your assumptive base is incorrect. You're assuming because all the world speaks english english has won in terms of being the main source of innovation. That's not correct reasoning. Julian___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
Okay, SICP, EOPL and TAPL I've worked out (own/am working through slowly). But ItoA? Google wasn't exactly helpful here. On 4 April 2013 22:22, Gath-Gealaich gath.na.geala...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:01 PM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.com wrote: Fortran was displaced in business because early Fortran had no structures and random record-oriented file access, and because of some silly government requirements for computer system procurement. Not according to management at Champion International. I have no idea what Champion International is and why I should care, but I *do* know that the US DoD made an early requirement for all computer system providers in defense contracts to provide all computer systems with COBOL, and that was it. I am guessing the three fundamentals educators agree to are implemented in obscure ways in the languages you are thinking of. For example in primitives or composition. My three fundamentals come specifically from Sussman and Abelson. If Sussman and Abelson don't qualify as educators, then I don't know who else does. Note that I'm ignoring all the crappy educators who actually display a severe syndrome of tunnel vision in their textbooks, such as those that I was forced to endure in my youth before I found *actual* quality education materials such as SICP, EOPL, TAPL, ItoA etc. The Bible is the fundamental document of America's Founders Book X is a fundamental document of person Y is a meaningless syntactic structure, unless you actually want to claim that there is Ben Franklin's biography stashed somewhere in the Books of Kings. which made the most important and powerful nation in the world rise from 13 colonies. Thus you lost your bet. I bow to your awesome powers of non sequitur. - Gath ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
On 2013-04-05 11:40AM, Piers Cawley wrote: Okay, SICP, EOPL and TAPL I've worked out (own/am working through slowly). But ItoA? Google wasn't exactly helpful here. Probably _Introduction to Algorithms_ by Cormen, Leiserson, Rivest, and Stein. --Josh ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
Hi, I don't think this acronym is in wide use, but probably Introduction To Algorithms by Cormen was meant. Cheers, Jarosław Rzeszótko 2013/4/5 Piers Cawley pdcaw...@bofh.org.uk Okay, SICP, EOPL and TAPL I've worked out (own/am working through slowly). But ItoA? Google wasn't exactly helpful here. On 4 April 2013 22:22, Gath-Gealaich gath.na.geala...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:01 PM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.com wrote: Fortran was displaced in business because early Fortran had no structures and random record-oriented file access, and because of some silly government requirements for computer system procurement. Not according to management at Champion International. I have no idea what Champion International is and why I should care, but I *do* know that the US DoD made an early requirement for all computer system providers in defense contracts to provide all computer systems with COBOL, and that was it. I am guessing the three fundamentals educators agree to are implemented in obscure ways in the languages you are thinking of. For example in primitives or composition. My three fundamentals come specifically from Sussman and Abelson. If Sussman and Abelson don't qualify as educators, then I don't know who else does. Note that I'm ignoring all the crappy educators who actually display a severe syndrome of tunnel vision in their textbooks, such as those that I was forced to endure in my youth before I found *actual* quality education materials such as SICP, EOPL, TAPL, ItoA etc. The Bible is the fundamental document of America's Founders Book X is a fundamental document of person Y is a meaningless syntactic structure, unless you actually want to claim that there is Ben Franklin's biography stashed somewhere in the Books of Kings. which made the most important and powerful nation in the world rise from 13 colonies. Thus you lost your bet. I bow to your awesome powers of non sequitur. - Gath ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
Actually that's your reasoning. Years ago when I was in college, educators wrote that innovation for innovation's sake is worth nothing. Truly worthwhile inventions judging by percent of Nobel Prize awards are by Jews, hence in Hebrew. But until the world converts to their superior culture, inventions are best communicated to the world in English since automatic machine translation is frequently imperfect. On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 2:19 AM, Julian Leviston jul...@leviston.net wrote: On 05/04/2013, at 7:19 AM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.com wrote: The main source of invention is not math wins as described on http://www.vpri.org/html/work/ifnct.htm since the world would be speaking math if it were really the source of inspiring more inventions that improve the world's standard of living. Math helps add precision to tasks that involve counting. Attempting to move from counting to logic such as in statistics sometimes leads to false conclusions, especially if logic is not given priority over the tools of math. For human value, readability is required, so computer language improvements must focus on natural language. Your assumptive base is incorrect. You're assuming because all the world speaks english english has won in terms of being the main source of innovation. That's not correct reasoning. Julian ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc -- Kirk W. Fraser http://freetom.info/TrueChurch - Replace the fraud churches with the true church. http://congressionalbiblestudy.org - Fix America by first fixing its Christian foundation. http://freetom.info - Example of False Justice common in America ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
The fact that we're not communicating very effectively disproves your point. ;-) Julian On 06/04/2013, at 12:42 AM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.com wrote: Actually that's your reasoning. Years ago when I was in college, educators wrote that innovation for innovation's sake is worth nothing. Truly worthwhile inventions judging by percent of Nobel Prize awards are by Jews, hence in Hebrew. But until the world converts to their superior culture, inventions are best communicated to the world in English since automatic machine translation is frequently imperfect. On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 2:19 AM, Julian Leviston jul...@leviston.net wrote: On 05/04/2013, at 7:19 AM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.com wrote: The main source of invention is not math wins as described on http://www.vpri.org/html/work/ifnct.htm since the world would be speaking math if it were really the source of inspiring more inventions that improve the world's standard of living. Math helps add precision to tasks that involve counting. Attempting to move from counting to logic such as in statistics sometimes leads to false conclusions, especially if logic is not given priority over the tools of math. For human value, readability is required, so computer language improvements must focus on natural language. Your assumptive base is incorrect. You're assuming because all the world speaks english english has won in terms of being the main source of innovation. That's not correct reasoning. Julian ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc -- Kirk W. Fraser http://freetom.info/TrueChurch - Replace the fraud churches with the true church. http://congressionalbiblestudy.org - Fix America by first fixing its Christian foundation. http://freetom.info - Example of False Justice common in America ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
Apology accepted. ;-) Julian On 06/04/2013, at 12:42 AM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.com wrote: Actually that's your reasoning. Years ago when I was in college, educators wrote that innovation for innovation's sake is worth nothing. Truly worthwhile inventions judging by percent of Nobel Prize awards are by Jews, hence in Hebrew. But until the world converts to their superior culture, inventions are best communicated to the world in English since automatic machine translation is frequently imperfect. On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 2:19 AM, Julian Leviston jul...@leviston.net wrote: On 05/04/2013, at 7:19 AM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.com wrote: The main source of invention is not math wins as described on http://www.vpri.org/html/work/ifnct.htm since the world would be speaking math if it were really the source of inspiring more inventions that improve the world's standard of living. Math helps add precision to tasks that involve counting. Attempting to move from counting to logic such as in statistics sometimes leads to false conclusions, especially if logic is not given priority over the tools of math. For human value, readability is required, so computer language improvements must focus on natural language. Your assumptive base is incorrect. You're assuming because all the world speaks english english has won in terms of being the main source of innovation. That's not correct reasoning. Julian ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc -- Kirk W. Fraser http://freetom.info/TrueChurch - Replace the fraud churches with the true church. http://congressionalbiblestudy.org - Fix America by first fixing its Christian foundation. http://freetom.info - Example of False Justice common in America ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
On Fri, Apr 05, 2013 at 06:42:53AM -0700, Kirk Fraser wrote: […] Truly worthwhile inventions judging by percent of Nobel Prize awards are by Jews, hence in Hebrew. […] Are your saying that most Nobel prize winning Jews were using Hebrew to think the thoughts that lead them to the Nobel prize? That looks really improbable. More so than a higher average IQ, for instance. Unless, maybe Hewbrew happens to be more amenable to efficient thinking? For the superior Jewish culture, I'd rather ask Eliezer Yudkowsky. ;-) Loup. ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
I was pointing out that innovation for its own sake is worthless then was agreeing with the view that not all the world's inventions come from people who think in English yet pointing out communicating in English is best for world wide distribution. I don't really know how many Jews who won Nobel Prizes thought in Hebrew, English, or even Russian. But it is as you wrote possible that Hebrew is more efficient. Something about their culture tends to be productive compared to others. Perhaps it's their orientation toward God, which is defined as absolute spiritual perfection. That in itself would tend to produce more efficient thought. English has a property that unfortunately allows it to be redefined with liberal definitions which are inefficient. Computers need smarter software to exceed the performance of Watson and OpenCyc to create worthwhile innovations automatically. I think working to automate Bible analysis is an efficient way to produce smarter software. But based the failures of automatic translators, computers may be slow to think flawlessly. On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 9:33 AM, Loup Vaillant-David l...@loup-vaillant.frwrote: On Fri, Apr 05, 2013 at 06:42:53AM -0700, Kirk Fraser wrote: […] Truly worthwhile inventions judging by percent of Nobel Prize awards are by Jews, hence in Hebrew. […] Are your saying that most Nobel prize winning Jews were using Hebrew to think the thoughts that lead them to the Nobel prize? That looks really improbable. More so than a higher average IQ, for instance. Unless, maybe Hewbrew happens to be more amenable to efficient thinking? For the superior Jewish culture, I'd rather ask Eliezer Yudkowsky. ;-) Loup. ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc -- Kirk W. Fraser http://freetom.info/TrueChurch - Replace the fraud churches with the true church. http://congressionalbiblestudy.org - Fix America by first fixing its Christian foundation. http://freetom.info - Example of False Justice common in America ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.com wrote: I was pointing out that innovation for its own sake is worthless then was agreeing with the view that not all the world's inventions come from people who think in English yet pointing out communicating in English is best for world wide distribution. I don't really know how many Jews who won Nobel Prizes thought in Hebrew, English, or even Russian. But it is as you wrote possible that Hebrew is more efficient. No, it's not. Whorfianism has been all but refuted. The only area in which the idea hold water, quite ironically, is formal/computer/programming languages (or so Paul Graham says, but he's right, as far as I can tell). Something about their culture tends to be productive compared to others. Perhaps it's their orientation toward God, which is defined as absolute spiritual perfection. That in itself would tend to produce more efficient thought. They've been oppressed by intellectually impoverished Christians for two millennia, denied the right to work in the fields of agriculture and crafts, and were forced to work in knowledge oriented professions such as medicine or finances. Of course that this nurtures a specific culture, and with the (most likely involuntary) need to become as indispensable for others as possible in over to avoid getting killed by hilt-happy Easter celebrators, they were virtually forced into what is usually referred to as overachievement (although here I have to admit, despite my former point, that you English people have the weirdest notions in your language). English has a property that unfortunately allows it to be redefined with liberal definitions which are inefficient. ^^^ This is a thoroughly nonsensical and meaningless statement. Computers need smarter software to exceed the performance of Watson and OpenCyc to create worthwhile innovations automatically. I think working to automate Bible analysis is an efficient way to produce smarter software. But based the failures of automatic translators, computers may be slow to think flawlessly. Again, you're completely ignoring the actual nature of speech, demonstrated in such phenomena as the existence of idiolects, referential indeterminacy, diachronic shifts etc. Language is what it is because there's a common sense component to its processing in our brains, and once you have that, you've successfully replicated a human being in silicon. Until that happens, all bets are off. (I'm tempted to wager that the inverse also holds, has_human_intelligence(X) :- understands_language(X). Although the fact that an average human being picked from your general population often fails at simple logical reasoning sort of suggests that the intelligence is of a slightly different kind that what we usually mean by saying he's intelligent/he's a genius.) - Gath ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
Gath, So what language do you normally think in? You have stated you don't live in America. Obviously you haven't listened to Rush Limbaugh long enough to know what liberal is. Why comment on things you know so little about? Tune in to Rush via iheart radio and listen for about 6 weeks and you'll have more clarity on what liberal actually means in America. I don't know many details about Israel but I suspect they don't misuse their words as often as liberals do here. That in itself makes Hebrew more efficient. Of course, as you wrote certain environmental factors may contribute to overachieving but I would argue that is impossible. It is impossible to overachieve. But that would be me exercising liberalism by going off topic - inefficient. On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Gath-Gealaich gath.na.geala...@gmail.comwrote: On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.comwrote: I was pointing out that innovation for its own sake is worthless then was agreeing with the view that not all the world's inventions come from people who think in English yet pointing out communicating in English is best for world wide distribution. I don't really know how many Jews who won Nobel Prizes thought in Hebrew, English, or even Russian. But it is as you wrote possible that Hebrew is more efficient. No, it's not. Whorfianism has been all but refuted. The only area in which the idea hold water, quite ironically, is formal/computer/programming languages (or so Paul Graham says, but he's right, as far as I can tell). Something about their culture tends to be productive compared to others. Perhaps it's their orientation toward God, which is defined as absolute spiritual perfection. That in itself would tend to produce more efficient thought. They've been oppressed by intellectually impoverished Christians for two millennia, denied the right to work in the fields of agriculture and crafts, and were forced to work in knowledge oriented professions such as medicine or finances. Of course that this nurtures a specific culture, and with the (most likely involuntary) need to become as indispensable for others as possible in over to avoid getting killed by hilt-happy Easter celebrators, they were virtually forced into what is usually referred to as overachievement (although here I have to admit, despite my former point, that you English people have the weirdest notions in your language). English has a property that unfortunately allows it to be redefined with liberal definitions which are inefficient. ^^^ This is a thoroughly nonsensical and meaningless statement. Computers need smarter software to exceed the performance of Watson and OpenCyc to create worthwhile innovations automatically. I think working to automate Bible analysis is an efficient way to produce smarter software. But based the failures of automatic translators, computers may be slow to think flawlessly. Again, you're completely ignoring the actual nature of speech, demonstrated in such phenomena as the existence of idiolects, referential indeterminacy, diachronic shifts etc. Language is what it is because there's a common sense component to its processing in our brains, and once you have that, you've successfully replicated a human being in silicon. Until that happens, all bets are off. (I'm tempted to wager that the inverse also holds, has_human_intelligence(X) :- understands_language(X). Although the fact that an average human being picked from your general population often fails at simple logical reasoning sort of suggests that the intelligence is of a slightly different kind that what we usually mean by saying he's intelligent/he's a genius.) - Gath ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc -- Kirk W. Fraser http://freetom.info/TrueChurch - Replace the fraud churches with the true church. http://congressionalbiblestudy.org - Fix America by first fixing its Christian foundation. http://freetom.info - Example of False Justice common in America ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/05/2013 04:19 PM, Kirk Fraser wrote: snippage Tune in to Rush via iheart radio and listen for about 6 weeks and you'll have more clarity on what liberal actually means in America. Heh. This statement far more offensive than all of the overt religiosity :-] There's no possible way that I could stand listening to Rush for 1/2 an hour, forget 6 weeks; he's a hypocritical idiot. more snippage Nevertheless I'm finding some of this conversation truly fascinating (though I'm having a little trouble figuring out what is truth and what isn't). be well, ~c -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJRXzS5AAoJELuLPXMxqTZ/SBkP/jOa9gqxlQw9eiSKPK4bZymT e6LHDSUwKu2DlI4B9WdDnvbvrpVkn3FUT6rT7W/LAoXMRBWjVuWKWvuAyFmcwXap ylAj9M8nrsz9sqG65Fu9Z/gEUYcMV/SX/G+sndG5XWWoQwzOyCEtxnK++1TNE1Eu x+IJV74asYtv6GtwKmoYBSNdfNc8w6znxgqUNsGrRqZjUS90flcLL1dUTI3yP4IB 1cynDNINrWVqjz12iVW/C80QVIUnz2q4gUs4G3IKpUTCuNT35TxOF6m/n1/nU2cy Fpp70mSUBfYZbv351Q9qZaeVIp+xUIGYr44tmROwAVM66NJI4a+g0arVlM0Z+Izr B9ZlbbU8kAhupyD1GHgwnyhIeXp10D2I3I8be/TNnr5ekz5BQJnCYaG1vEXROSBO mIxLuQykq4vk85W9qTcO84vXOBB8NXM8vulA4p9CA74LScjsEOgFYdZ/PWV87dDM 6BOihWDWgx9aCBiQLk+veTFg9vpZINswJ5uYMwN8a+A6Okwosby1BWp4ctKMiLcN hV5bGSAiacvzJ6gkrV2/SRQE+5PTr2UaFOQL63mIAo2+KJ1gaSOQrRUsAVRo7xrf 7BmMxCcO7k+klcHaYNkHjEXyULpsjKOU3AugKGnoOdPYj5AGEGO/0bcG5HQ9+22X zNjtxMVhBPn73L1vwp0k =wkP2 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
I am now convinced we are on some sort of mailing list version of candid camera. Or maybe these messages are the product of some strange markovian email generator programmed to create dissonance by combining fringe comp sci theories with offensive social commentary normally reserved for talk radio. On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 2:19 PM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.com wrote: Gath, So what language do you normally think in? You have stated you don't live in America. Obviously you haven't listened to Rush Limbaugh long enough to know what liberal is. Why comment on things you know so little about? Tune in to Rush via iheart radio and listen for about 6 weeks and you'll have more clarity on what liberal actually means in America. I don't know many details about Israel but I suspect they don't misuse their words as often as liberals do here. That in itself makes Hebrew more efficient. Of course, as you wrote certain environmental factors may contribute to overachieving but I would argue that is impossible. It is impossible to overachieve. But that would be me exercising liberalism by going off topic - inefficient. On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Gath-Gealaich gath.na.geala...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.comwrote: I was pointing out that innovation for its own sake is worthless then was agreeing with the view that not all the world's inventions come from people who think in English yet pointing out communicating in English is best for world wide distribution. I don't really know how many Jews who won Nobel Prizes thought in Hebrew, English, or even Russian. But it is as you wrote possible that Hebrew is more efficient. No, it's not. Whorfianism has been all but refuted. The only area in which the idea hold water, quite ironically, is formal/computer/programming languages (or so Paul Graham says, but he's right, as far as I can tell). Something about their culture tends to be productive compared to others. Perhaps it's their orientation toward God, which is defined as absolute spiritual perfection. That in itself would tend to produce more efficient thought. They've been oppressed by intellectually impoverished Christians for two millennia, denied the right to work in the fields of agriculture and crafts, and were forced to work in knowledge oriented professions such as medicine or finances. Of course that this nurtures a specific culture, and with the (most likely involuntary) need to become as indispensable for others as possible in over to avoid getting killed by hilt-happy Easter celebrators, they were virtually forced into what is usually referred to as overachievement (although here I have to admit, despite my former point, that you English people have the weirdest notions in your language). English has a property that unfortunately allows it to be redefined with liberal definitions which are inefficient. ^^^ This is a thoroughly nonsensical and meaningless statement. Computers need smarter software to exceed the performance of Watson and OpenCyc to create worthwhile innovations automatically. I think working to automate Bible analysis is an efficient way to produce smarter software. But based the failures of automatic translators, computers may be slow to think flawlessly. Again, you're completely ignoring the actual nature of speech, demonstrated in such phenomena as the existence of idiolects, referential indeterminacy, diachronic shifts etc. Language is what it is because there's a common sense component to its processing in our brains, and once you have that, you've successfully replicated a human being in silicon. Until that happens, all bets are off. (I'm tempted to wager that the inverse also holds, has_human_intelligence(X) :- understands_language(X). Although the fact that an average human being picked from your general population often fails at simple logical reasoning sort of suggests that the intelligence is of a slightly different kind that what we usually mean by saying he's intelligent/he's a genius.) - Gath ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc -- Kirk W. Fraser http://freetom.info/TrueChurch - Replace the fraud churches with the true church. http://congressionalbiblestudy.org - Fix America by first fixing its Christian foundation. http://freetom.info - Example of False Justice common in America ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
Ya think!? Did I really just waste five minutes...? Let us all go home and try to regain some clarity. Interesting points all but are we done? Alan M. On Apr 5, 2013, at 1:35 PM, shaun gilchrist shaunxc...@gmail.com wrote: I am now convinced we are on some sort of mailing list version of candid camera. Or maybe these messages are the product of some strange markovian email generator programmed to create dissonance by combining fringe comp sci theories with offensive social commentary normally reserved for talk radio. On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 2:19 PM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.com wrote: Gath, So what language do you normally think in? You have stated you don't live in America. Obviously you haven't listened to Rush Limbaugh long enough to know what liberal is. Why comment on things you know so little about? Tune in to Rush via iheart radio and listen for about 6 weeks and you'll have more clarity on what liberal actually means in America. I don't know many details about Israel but I suspect they don't misuse their words as often as liberals do here. That in itself makes Hebrew more efficient. Of course, as you wrote certain environmental factors may contribute to overachieving but I would argue that is impossible. It is impossible to overachieve. But that would be me exercising liberalism by going off topic - inefficient. On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Gath-Gealaich gath.na.geala...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.comwrote: I was pointing out that innovation for its own sake is worthless then was agreeing with the view that not all the world's inventions come from people who think in English yet pointing out communicating in English is best for world wide distribution. I don't really know how many Jews who won Nobel Prizes thought in Hebrew, English, or even Russian. But it is as you wrote possible that Hebrew is more efficient. No, it's not. Whorfianism has been all but refuted. The only area in which the idea hold water, quite ironically, is formal/computer/programming languages (or so Paul Graham says, but he's right, as far as I can tell). Something about their culture tends to be productive compared to others. Perhaps it's their orientation toward God, which is defined as absolute spiritual perfection. That in itself would tend to produce more efficient thought. They've been oppressed by intellectually impoverished Christians for two millennia, denied the right to work in the fields of agriculture and crafts, and were forced to work in knowledge oriented professions such as medicine or finances. Of course that this nurtures a specific culture, and with the (most likely involuntary) need to become as indispensable for others as possible in over to avoid getting killed by hilt-happy Easter celebrators, they were virtually forced into what is usually referred to as overachievement (although here I have to admit, despite my former point, that you English people have the weirdest notions in your language). English has a property that unfortunately allows it to be redefined with liberal definitions which are inefficient. ^^^ This is a thoroughly nonsensical and meaningless statement. Computers need smarter software to exceed the performance of Watson and OpenCyc to create worthwhile innovations automatically. I think working to automate Bible analysis is an efficient way to produce smarter software. But based the failures of automatic translators, computers may be slow to think flawlessly. Again, you're completely ignoring the actual nature of speech, demonstrated in such phenomena as the existence of idiolects, referential indeterminacy, diachronic shifts etc. Language is what it is because there's a common sense component to its processing in our brains, and once you have that, you've successfully replicated a human being in silicon. Until that happens, all bets are off. (I'm tempted to wager that the inverse also holds, has_human_intelligence(X) :- understands_language(X). Although the fact that an average human being picked from your general population often fails at simple logical reasoning sort of suggests that the intelligence is of a slightly different kind that what we usually mean by saying he's intelligent/he's a genius.) - Gath ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc -- Kirk W. Fraser http://freetom.info/TrueChurch - Replace the fraud churches with the true church. http://congressionalbiblestudy.org - Fix America by first fixing its Christian foundation. http://freetom.info - Example of False Justice common in America ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
Charlie Derr wrote: Nevertheless I'm finding some of this conversation truly fascinating (though I'm having a little trouble figuring out what is truth and what isn't). I'm just waiting for Kirk to mention Atlantis or the Rosicrucians. It feels like it could be any moment... Steve ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
I didn't see lojban mentioned. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban
On Apr 4, 2013 3:19 PM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.com wrote:
The main source of invention is not math wins as described on
http://www.vpri.org/html/work/ifnct.htm since the world would be speaking
math if it were really the source of inspiring more inventions that improve
the world's standard of living. Math helps add precision to tasks that
involve counting. Attempting to move from counting to logic such as in
statistics sometimes leads to false conclusions, especially if logic is not
given priority over the tools of math. For human value, readability is
required, so computer language improvements must focus on natural language.
Human language itself has problems seen in large projects such as Ubuntu
where contributors from around the world write in their own language and
tag their code with favorite names which mean nothing to the average reader
instead of words which best explain the application. Thus a major
improvement for world computing would be careful adherence to a world wide
natural language. We know cobbling together a variety of languages as in
Esperanto fails. While English is the world standard language for
business, Hebrew might be more inspiring. In any case the use of whole
words with common sense is more readable than acronyms.
The first math language Fortran was soon displaced in business by more
readable code afforded by Cobol's longer variable names. In Smalltalk one
can write unreadable math as easily as readable code but Smalltalk may have
a few legacy bugs which nobody has yet fixed, possibly due to having
metaphor or polymorphism design errors, where the code looks good to
multiple programmers but fails to perform as truly desired in all
circumstances. Further reluctance to use commonsense whole words on some
objects such as BltBlk present a barrier to learning directly from the
code.
One way to reduce these errors is to develop a set of executable rules
that produce Smalltalk, including checking method reuse implications. Then
one could make changes to a few rules and the rules would totally
reengineer Smalltalk accordingly, without forgetting or overlooking
anything that the programmer hasn't overlooked in the rules. There is also
room for a more efficient and more natural language. Smalltalk is
supposed to be 3 times faster to code than C and Expert systems are
supposed to be 10 times faster to code in than C. So a better language
needs development in two directions, easy to understand Expert rules using
common sense whole words and a built in library which enables Star Trek's
Computer or Iron Man's Computer level of hands free or at least keyboard
free function.
There are three basic statements in any computer language: assignment, If
then else, and loop. Beyond that a computer language should provide rapid
access to all common peripherals. Expert systems tend to have a built in
loop which executes everything until there are no more changes. Some
industrial process controllers put a strict time limit on the loop.
Examining published rules of simple expert systems, it appears that random
rule order makes them easier to create while brainstorming, it is possible
to organize rules in a sequential order which eliminates the repeat until
no changes loop. Rule ordering can be automated to retain freedom of human
input order.
Several years ago I worked with a Standford student to develop a language
we call Lt which introduces a concept of Object Strings which can make
rules a little easier. Unfortunately the project was written in VBasic
instead of Smalltalk so I've had insufficient ability to work on it since
the project ended. Soon I'll be working on converting it to Smalltalk then
reengineering it since it has a few design errors and needs a few more
development cycles educated by co-developing an NLP application.
Here's a simple Lt method which is very similar to Smalltalk
game
example Lt code
| bird player rock noise |
'objects
rock exists. player clumsy.
'facts
player trips : [player {clumsy unlucky}, rock exists].
'a if x w or x y and z
noise exists; is loud : (player trips, player noisy).
'a and b if x or y
bird frightened : noise is loud.
'a if x
(bird ~player has : bird frightened.
'case: if b then not a else a.
bird player has.).
^
'answer rock exists, player clumsy,
player trips, noise exists, noise is loud
'bird frightened
Now to complete the project without corporate resources, it is necessary
to select an NLP application which is both more powerful and physically
smaller than IBM's Watson which won against Jeopardy's best players. The
most powerful NLP text in history is the Bible which is only 4 Mb instead
of Watson's 4 Tb. Bible analysis can be very
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
The first math language Fortran was soon displaced in business by more readable code afforded by Cobol's longer variable names. Fortran was displaced in business because early Fortran had no structures and random record-oriented file access, and because of some silly government requirements for computer system procurement. There are three basic statements in any computer language: assignment, If then else, and loop. ...except for those languages that have none of these three? I'd rather argue that all languages have 1) primitives, 2) means of composition, 3) means of abstraction. Some languages lack the third (Excel?) but these are not especially useful on large scale. Now to complete the project without corporate resources, it is necessary to select an NLP application which is both more powerful and physically smaller than IBM's Watson which won against Jeopardy's best players. The most powerful NLP text in history is the Bible which is only 4 Mb instead of Watson's 4 Tb. I have absolutely no idea what powerful is supposed to mean in this context, but I'd bet the Reuters corpora against the Bible any day of the week. Bible sounds like a horrible source material for any automated NLP endeavor, no matter whether research oriented or production-oriented, since it's on all levels (lexical, semantic, factual) schizophrenically disconnected from modern textual material. This level of NLP mastery in or external to an outside and indoor robot could be used to end poverty, illiteracy, crime, terrorism, and war around the world by growing and serving food, educating and entertaining a family with the same language and religion cradle to Ph.D what? O_o; - Gath ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 1:26 PM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: I didn't see lojban mentioned. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban Consider it equal to Esperanto in context of my argument. ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
Thus a major improvement for world computing would be careful adherence to
a world wide natural language
That seems to be contrary to how the world works. We can't even agree
whether to read bytes from right to left or left to right (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness).
http://xkcd.com/927/
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:26 PM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote:
I didn't see lojban mentioned. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban
On Apr 4, 2013 3:19 PM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.com wrote:
The main source of invention is not math wins as described on
http://www.vpri.org/html/work/ifnct.htm since the world would be
speaking math if it were really the source of inspiring more inventions
that improve the world's standard of living. Math helps add precision to
tasks that involve counting. Attempting to move from counting to logic
such as in statistics sometimes leads to false conclusions, especially if
logic is not given priority over the tools of math. For human value,
readability is required, so computer language improvements must focus on
natural language.
Human language itself has problems seen in large projects such as Ubuntu
where contributors from around the world write in their own language and
tag their code with favorite names which mean nothing to the average reader
instead of words which best explain the application. Thus a major
improvement for world computing would be careful adherence to a world wide
natural language. We know cobbling together a variety of languages as in
Esperanto fails. While English is the world standard language for
business, Hebrew might be more inspiring. In any case the use of whole
words with common sense is more readable than acronyms.
The first math language Fortran was soon displaced in business by more
readable code afforded by Cobol's longer variable names. In Smalltalk one
can write unreadable math as easily as readable code but Smalltalk may have
a few legacy bugs which nobody has yet fixed, possibly due to having
metaphor or polymorphism design errors, where the code looks good to
multiple programmers but fails to perform as truly desired in all
circumstances. Further reluctance to use commonsense whole words on some
objects such as BltBlk present a barrier to learning directly from the
code.
One way to reduce these errors is to develop a set of executable rules
that produce Smalltalk, including checking method reuse implications. Then
one could make changes to a few rules and the rules would totally
reengineer Smalltalk accordingly, without forgetting or overlooking
anything that the programmer hasn't overlooked in the rules. There is also
room for a more efficient and more natural language. Smalltalk is
supposed to be 3 times faster to code than C and Expert systems are
supposed to be 10 times faster to code in than C. So a better language
needs development in two directions, easy to understand Expert rules using
common sense whole words and a built in library which enables Star Trek's
Computer or Iron Man's Computer level of hands free or at least keyboard
free function.
There are three basic statements in any computer language: assignment, If
then else, and loop. Beyond that a computer language should provide rapid
access to all common peripherals. Expert systems tend to have a built in
loop which executes everything until there are no more changes. Some
industrial process controllers put a strict time limit on the loop.
Examining published rules of simple expert systems, it appears that random
rule order makes them easier to create while brainstorming, it is possible
to organize rules in a sequential order which eliminates the repeat until
no changes loop. Rule ordering can be automated to retain freedom of human
input order.
Several years ago I worked with a Standford student to develop a language
we call Lt which introduces a concept of Object Strings which can make
rules a little easier. Unfortunately the project was written in VBasic
instead of Smalltalk so I've had insufficient ability to work on it since
the project ended. Soon I'll be working on converting it to Smalltalk then
reengineering it since it has a few design errors and needs a few more
development cycles educated by co-developing an NLP application.
Here's a simple Lt method which is very similar to Smalltalk
game
example Lt code
| bird player rock noise |
'objects
rock exists. player clumsy.
'facts
player trips : [player {clumsy unlucky}, rock exists].
'a if x w or x y and z
noise exists; is loud : (player trips, player noisy).
'a and b if x or y
bird frightened : noise is loud.
'a if x
(bird ~player has : bird frightened.
'case: if b then not a else a.
bird player has.).
^
'answer rock exists, player clumsy,
player trips, noise exists, noise is loud
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 1:40 PM, Tristan Slominski tristan.slomin...@gmail.com wrote: Thus a major improvement for world computing would be careful adherence to a world wide natural language That seems to be contrary to how the world works. We can't even agree whether to read bytes from right to left or left to right ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness). http://xkcd.com/927/ It appears you are successfully working with English as do most people who communicate internationally. Not to say English best but it is what most people know and using it in programs would make them readable by more people until people adopt a purer language like Hebrew. -- Kirk W. Fraser http://freetom.info/TrueChurch - Replace the fraud churches with the true church. http://congressionalbiblestudy.org - Fix America by first fixing its Christian foundation. http://freetom.info - Example of False Justice common in America ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
Esperanto was intended to be a human understandable language. Lojban is intended to be a computer and human understandable language...huge difference. On Apr 4, 2013 3:39 PM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 1:26 PM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: I didn't see lojban mentioned. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban Consider it equal to Esperanto in context of my argument. ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
Actually zero difference in readability by me or anyone else who understands English but not Lojban or any trivial language. On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 1:47 PM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: Esperanto was intended to be a human understandable language. Lojban is intended to be a computer and human understandable language...huge difference. On Apr 4, 2013 3:39 PM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 1:26 PM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: I didn't see lojban mentioned. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban Consider it equal to Esperanto in context of my argument. ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc -- Kirk W. Fraser http://freetom.info/TrueChurch - Replace the fraud churches with the true church. http://congressionalbiblestudy.org - Fix America by first fixing its Christian foundation. http://freetom.info - Example of False Justice common in America ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
It appears you are successfully working with English as do most people [**citation needed**] who communicate internationally. Not to say English best but it is what most people know [**citation needed**] and using it in programs would make them readable by more people [**no evidence for this hypothesis**] until people adopt [**no evidence for this hypothesis**] a purer language [**citation needed**] like Hebrew [**citation needed**]. On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:47 PM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: Esperanto was intended to be a human understandable language. Lojban is intended to be a computer and human understandable language...huge difference. On Apr 4, 2013 3:39 PM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 1:26 PM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: I didn't see lojban mentioned. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban Consider it equal to Esperanto in context of my argument. ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
Natural languages include tenses. What computer systems have a wide variety of tenses? ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Gath-Gealaich gath.na.geala...@gmail.comwrote: The first math language Fortran was soon displaced in business by more readable code afforded by Cobol's longer variable names. Fortran was displaced in business because early Fortran had no structures and random record-oriented file access, and because of some silly government requirements for computer system procurement. Not according to management at Champion International. There are three basic statements in any computer language: assignment, If then else, and loop. ...except for those languages that have none of these three? I'd rather argue that all languages have 1) primitives, 2) means of composition, 3) means of abstraction. Some languages lack the third (Excel?) but these are not especially useful on large scale. I am guessing the three fundamentals educators agree to are implemented in obscure ways in the languages you are thinking of. For example in primitives or composition. Now to complete the project without corporate resources, it is necessary to select an NLP application which is both more powerful and physically smaller than IBM's Watson which won against Jeopardy's best players. The most powerful NLP text in history is the Bible which is only 4 Mb instead of Watson's 4 Tb. I have absolutely no idea what powerful is supposed to mean in this context, but I'd bet the Reuters corpora against the Bible any day of the week. Bible sounds like a horrible source material for any automated NLP endeavor, no matter whether research oriented or production-oriented, since it's on all levels (lexical, semantic, factual) schizophrenically disconnected from modern textual material. The Bible is the fundamental document of America's Founders, which made the most important and powerful nation in the world rise from 13 colonies. Thus you lost your bet. -- Kirk W. Fraser http://freetom.info/TrueChurch - Replace the fraud churches with the true church. http://congressionalbiblestudy.org - Fix America by first fixing its Christian foundation. http://freetom.info - Example of False Justice common in America ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
Liberal dictionaries have definitions that are by default wrong. For evidence of language decay, read definitions from the 1988 Webster's Collegiate vs. the current Webster's. Pure word and definition is needed to understand truth. People who love to lie get along without words meaning things. For example the current political fight on marriage demonstrates some people couldn't care less for truth, only for employer's spouse benefits to be shared with roommates. On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 1:51 PM, Gath-Gealaich gath.na.geala...@gmail.comwrote: Not to say English best but it is what most people know and using it in programs would make them readable by more people until people adopt a purer language like Hebrew. I'm not sure if you're joking or trolling, but Hebrew is hardly a purer language by any definition, as there is no such thing. This 19th century mindset died out a long time ago, along with the pretensions of contemporary linguists at demonstrating the purported language decay. We've come along way since then in our understanding of how languages evolve. -- Kirk W. Fraser http://freetom.info/TrueChurch - Replace the fraud churches with the true church. http://congressionalbiblestudy.org - Fix America by first fixing its Christian foundation. http://freetom.info - Example of False Justice common in America ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:13 PM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.comwrote: Liberal dictionaries have definitions that are by default wrong. There's no such thing as liberal dictionaries. For evidence of language decay, read definitions from the 1988 Webster's Collegiate vs. the current Webster's. Pure word and definition is needed to understand truth. There's no such thing as pure words. Language is a dynamic, evolving, feedback-driven entity that grows and adapts to new conditions, with meanings of words broadening (dog), narrowing (hound), shifting(computer) etc. People who love to lie get along without words meaning things. ...I won't comment on that nonsense. For example the current political fight on marriage demonstrates some people couldn't care less for truth, only for employer's spouse benefits to be shared with roommates. Political fight on marriage? I don't live in the US, so I have little understanding what you're talking about, but the word marriage seems to be applied in most cultures over the globe for some sort of binding social contract between individuals related to nurturing younglings for the next generation, yielding vastly different rights and obligations from such union across the different cultures. This makes the meaning of the word marriage highly contextual. (But I admit freely that my understanding of cultural anthropology is limited to having skimmed through the Encyclopedia of World Cultures. It was worth it, though - and quite fascinating at that.) - Gath ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins
Am 04.04.13 22:53, schrieb John Carlson: Natural languages include tenses. What computer systems have a wide variety of tenses? John McCarthy analyzed this in his description of Elephant 2000 [1] sentence Algolic programs refer to the past via variables, arrays and other data structures. The maths vs natural language discussion boils down to the interpretation of meaning. In natural language the meaning of an expression is typically the intent of the sender to create the meaning in the world of the receiver. In How to do Things with Words J. L. Austin analyzed [2] that we use language to do things as well as to assert things. This interpretation of the meaning of language is called the theory of speech acts. Mathematics on the other hand is a formal language and every expression (should be) based on well defined definitions and proven theorems based on axioms, laws. Attention: I am not saying that one cannot express speech act models formally. One has to take the participating agent's knowledge, goals, and beliefs, into account With Elephant 2000 John envisioned to create a system that work based on speech acts[3]. He writes further The nature of the interaction arises from the fact that the different agents have different goals, knowledge and capabilities, and an agent's achieving its goals requires interaction with others. The nature of the required interactions determines the speech acts required. Many facts about what speech acts are required are independent of whether the agent is man or machine. Best, Jakob [1] - http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/elephant/node3.html#SECTION0003 [2] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Do_Things_with_Words [3] - http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/elephant/node2.html#SECTION0002 ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
