Re: [fonc] Re: a little more FLEXibility
On 05.09.2011, at 21:03, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: Michael, ah, but instead of Smalltalk #at:put: you can use any object member's setter. I was just too lazy to write that. :-) If I have two inspectors open, one for MorphA and the other for ObjB, then I don't see what I could type in either window to get ObjB to reference MorphA. Your solution via globals solves this problem (but introduces a global). But it might be just a lack of imagination on my part. In the latest Squeak alpha you can drag any slot from one inspector onto any slot of another inspector, replacing the object in it. - Bert - ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Re: a little more FLEXibility
*not sure if this is relevant:* * * *one nifty feature I recently noticed which exists in SQL Server Management Studio was the ability to select things, hit a key, and evaluate only the selected code.* * * *this seemed to combine some of the merits of entry in a text editor, with those of immediate evaluation (and allowing more convenient ways to deal with longer multi-line commands)* F# REPL in Visual Studio also supports this. Pretty nice feature. On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 1:01 AM, BGB cr88...@gmail.com wrote: On 9/4/2011 11:38 PM, Michael Haupt wrote: Hi Jecel, Am 02.09.2011 um 20:51 schrieb Jecel Assumpcao Jr.: Michael, your solution is a little more indirect than dragging arrows in Self since you have to create a global, which is what I would like to avoid. ah, but instead of Smalltalk #at:put: you can use any object member's setter. I was just too lazy to write that. :-) Not to mention that one solution is direct manipulation while the other is typing and evaluating an expression. But between your solution and Bert's it is obvious that the system can do what I want but the limitation in the GUI. Of course; I see the deficiencies. not sure if this is relevant: one nifty feature I recently noticed which exists in SQL Server Management Studio was the ability to select things, hit a key, and evaluate only the selected code. this seemed to combine some of the merits of entry in a text editor, with those of immediate evaluation (and allowing more convenient ways to deal with longer multi-line commands). Best, Michael -- [image: Oracle] http://www.oracle.com/ Dr. Michael Haupt | Principal Member of Technical Staff Phone: +49 331 200 7277 | Fax: +49 331 200 7561 Oracle Labs Oracle Deutschland B.V. Co. KG, Schiffbauergasse 14 | 14467 Potsdam, Germany [image: Green Oracle] http://www.oracle.com/commitment Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment ___ fonc mailing listfonc@vpri.orghttp://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Re: a little more FLEXibility
I hate to be the one to bring this up, but this has always been a feature of all the Smalltalks ... one has to ask, what is there about current general practice that makes this at all remarkable? ... Cheers, Alan From: Murat Girgin gir...@gmail.com To: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Monday, September 5, 2011 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [fonc] Re: a little more FLEXibility not sure if this is relevant: one nifty feature I recently noticed which exists in SQL Server Management Studio was the ability to select things, hit a key, and evaluate only the selected code. this seemed to combine some of the merits of entry in a text editor, with those of immediate evaluation (and allowing more convenient ways to deal with longer multi-line commands) F# REPL in Visual Studio also supports this. Pretty nice feature. On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 1:01 AM, BGB cr88...@gmail.com wrote: On 9/4/2011 11:38 PM, Michael Haupt wrote: Hi Jecel, Am 02.09.2011 um 20:51 schrieb Jecel Assumpcao Jr.: Michael, your solution is a little more indirect than dragging arrows in Self since you have to create a global, which is what I would like to avoid. ah, but instead of Smalltalk #at:put: you can use any object member's setter. I was just too lazy to write that. :-) Not to mention that one solution is direct manipulation while the other is typing and evaluating an expression. But between your solution and Bert's it is obvious that the system can do what I want but the limitation in the GUI. Of course; I see the deficiencies. not sure if this is relevant: one nifty feature I recently noticed which exists in SQL Server Management Studio was the ability to select things, hit a key, and evaluate only the selected code. this seemed to combine some of the merits of entry in a text editor, with those of immediate evaluation (and allowing more convenient ways to deal with longer multi-line commands). Best, Michael -- Dr. Michael Haupt | Principal Member of Technical Staff Phone: +49 331 200 7277 | Fax: +49 331 200 7561 Oracle Labs Oracle Deutschland B.V. Co. KG, Schiffbauergasse 14 | 14467 Potsdam, Germany Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Re: a little more FLEXibility
There are also a number of live coding editors that do this for environments like SuperCollider and Fluxus http://supercollider.sourceforge.net/ http://www.pawfal.org/fluxus/ It has always bugged me that more coding environments don't support this, but some languages don't lend themselves to it. wes On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 11:55 AM, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote: I hate to be the one to bring this up, but this has always been a feature of all the Smalltalks ... one has to ask, what is there about current general practice that makes this at all remarkable? ... Cheers, Alan From: Murat Girgin gir...@gmail.com To: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Monday, September 5, 2011 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [fonc] Re: a little more FLEXibility not sure if this is relevant: one nifty feature I recently noticed which exists in SQL Server Management Studio was the ability to select things, hit a key, and evaluate only the selected code. this seemed to combine some of the merits of entry in a text editor, with those of immediate evaluation (and allowing more convenient ways to deal with longer multi-line commands) F# REPL in Visual Studio also supports this. Pretty nice feature. On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 1:01 AM, BGB cr88...@gmail.com wrote: On 9/4/2011 11:38 PM, Michael Haupt wrote: Hi Jecel, Am 02.09.2011 um 20:51 schrieb Jecel Assumpcao Jr.: Michael, your solution is a little more indirect than dragging arrows in Self since you have to create a global, which is what I would like to avoid. ah, but instead of Smalltalk #at:put: you can use any object member's setter. I was just too lazy to write that. :-) Not to mention that one solution is direct manipulation while the other is typing and evaluating an expression. But between your solution and Bert's it is obvious that the system can do what I want but the limitation in the GUI. Of course; I see the deficiencies. not sure if this is relevant: one nifty feature I recently noticed which exists in SQL Server Management Studio was the ability to select things, hit a key, and evaluate only the selected code. this seemed to combine some of the merits of entry in a text editor, with those of immediate evaluation (and allowing more convenient ways to deal with longer multi-line commands). Best, Michael -- Dr. Michael Haupt | Principal Member of Technical Staff Phone: +49 331 200 7277 | Fax: +49 331 200 7561 Oracle Labs Oracle Deutschland B.V. Co. KG, Schiffbauergasse 14 | 14467 Potsdam, Germany Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Re: a little more FLEXibility
On 9/5/2011 11:55 AM, Alan Kay wrote: I hate to be the one to bring this up, but this has always been a feature of all the Smalltalks ... one has to ask, what is there about current general practice that makes this at all remarkable? ... Cheers, Alan maybe because it is sufficiently uncommon that one has not thought-of or seen the idea at any point prior to this point? almost invariably, one is limited either to reloading whole files (if one is lucky and using a scripting language for this, otherwise it is time to exit the app and rebuild), or however much they can reasonably type into a console (may be often limited to 80 or 100 characters or so, especially with IRC-style consoles, where one only has a single-line entry field at the bottom and everything scrolls up). depending on editor/language (say Java+Eclipse), there is the ability to pause and edit code in the debugger, but this is a different feature. Visual Studio generally also has an immediate-evaluation tab thingy, which works more like a console. so, a scratch-pad style editor which allows selecting and evaluating things (and optionally saving and reloading these scratch-pads), sadly, does actually seem fairly novel (I am tempted to add similar to my own project, but would need to think up details regarding the user-interface and/or how to integrate it with the existing console interface). (probably like an editor on the bottom with console output on the top, and maybe some keyboard shortcut magic to access it.) sad thing though is, if Bash ever falls out of common use, people may then forget about the idea of the console remembering command history from prior sessions or similar (most other console-style UIs don't do this). *From:* Murat Girgin gir...@gmail.com *To:* Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org *Sent:* Monday, September 5, 2011 11:21 AM *Subject:* Re: [fonc] Re: a little more FLEXibility /not sure if this is relevant:/ / / /one nifty feature I recently noticed which exists in SQL Server Management Studio was the ability to select things, hit a key, and evaluate only the selected code./ / / /this seemed to combine some of the merits of entry in a text editor, with those of immediate evaluation (and allowing more convenient ways to deal with longer multi-line commands)/ F# REPL in Visual Studio also supports this. Pretty nice feature. On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 1:01 AM, BGB cr88...@gmail.com mailto:cr88...@gmail.com wrote: On 9/4/2011 11:38 PM, Michael Haupt wrote: Hi Jecel, Am 02.09.2011 um 20:51 schrieb Jecel Assumpcao Jr.: Michael, your solution is a little more indirect than dragging arrows in Self since you have to create a global, which is what I would like to avoid. ah, but instead of Smalltalk #at:put: you can use any object member's setter. I was just too lazy to write that. :-) Not to mention that one solution is direct manipulation while the other is typing and evaluating an expression. But between your solution and Bert's it is obvious that the system can do what I want but the limitation in the GUI. Of course; I see the deficiencies. not sure if this is relevant: one nifty feature I recently noticed which exists in SQL Server Management Studio was the ability to select things, hit a key, and evaluate only the selected code. this seemed to combine some of the merits of entry in a text editor, with those of immediate evaluation (and allowing more convenient ways to deal with longer multi-line commands). Best, Michael -- Oracle http://www.oracle.com/ Dr. Michael Haupt | Principal Member of Technical Staff Phone: +49 331 200 7277 | Fax: +49 331 200 7561 OracleLabs Oracle Deutschland B.V. Co. KG, Schiffbauergasse 14 | 14467 Potsdam, Germany Green Oracle http://www.oracle.com/commitment Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org mailto:fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org mailto:fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org mailto:fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman
Re: [fonc] Re: a little more FLEXibility
Alan, I hate to be the one to bring this up, but this has always been a feature of all the Smalltalks ... I was going to say that this was introduced in 1976 and that the first two version of Smalltalk had a more traditional REPL. But I would have to check since I might be remembering it wrong. The select/eval GUI was also a key design feature of Oberon, which was the start of this thread. So we have come full circle :-) one has to ask, what is there about current general practice that makes this at all remarkable? ... Most professors in the CS department where I study, which consistently gets rated among the top 5 in the country, have never even heard of Smalltalk. So you can just imagine how much the students or professional developers don't know. Francisco, thanks for bringing up MorphicWrappers. For some reason I remembered the name of the MathMorphs project from the same group, but not this one. But it is indeed probably the closest thing out there to what I was thinking. Casey mentioned to me the Maui GUI for Squeak, which was inspired by this. Michael, ah, but instead of Smalltalk #at:put: you can use any object member's setter. I was just too lazy to write that. :-) If I have two inspectors open, one for MorphA and the other for ObjB, then I don't see what I could type in either window to get ObjB to reference MorphA. Your solution via globals solves this problem (but introduces a global). But it might be just a lack of imagination on my part. -- Jecel ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
