Re: [fpc-pascal] Using the LCL without Lazarus

[Martin Schreiber]

On 12/01/2016 04:58 AM, BobJ wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Sent by: "fredvs" 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 9:12 AM
> 
>> PS: MSEgui has a perfectly working assisted interface.
> 
> Thanks, I will take a "look" at that, bearing in mind that sighted folks
> often over estimate how usable anything will be for non-sighted folks.
> 
That was my concern too when Fred started with the accessibility options
for MSEgui. I suggested to use and extend the "iassistiveclient" and
"iassistiveserver" interfaces of MSEgui in order to connect to standard
screen readers instead to implement own reader functionality.

Maybe continue the discussion on the MSEide+MSEgui mailinglist:
mseide-msegui-t...@lists.sourceforge.net
Registering page:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mseide-msegui-talk

Martin
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Using the LCL without Lazarus

[BobJ]

Hello,

Sent by: "fredvs" 
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 9:12 AM


PS: MSEgui has a perfectly working assisted interface.


Thanks, I will take a "look" at that, bearing in mind that sighted folks 
often over estimate how usable anything will be for non-sighted folks.




What do you mean with "unfriendly" nature of their video displays" ?


In my experience, I have come to believe that there must be more than one 
technique for providing an editable field or editable screen shown on the 
video display.  In support of that belief I offer the fact that I can use 
the Windows NotePad text-editor to enter thousands of characters, review any 
of those characters or alter any of them with no difficulty and both of the 
screen-readers at my disposal provide flawless feedback regarding the 
identity of every character.  On the other hand, there exists other software 
packages which must be providing those editable areas via some technique 
other than that used by the NotePad program because neither of my 
screen-readers can provide any bit of feedback regarding what might appear 
there and neither can either screen-reader enable me to enter any type of 
characters therein.  I only know that which I have just explained, knowing 
nothing about the how's and why's of it.




Did you enable "Voice Assisted" feature of ideU ?


Yes, after much trial and error or, probably more accurately, much trial and 
failure.  Evidently, IDEU defaults to an environment other than Windows 
because the default path to the folder containing the text-to-speech package 
contains slash characters instead of back-slashe characters.  Naturally, 
that fact requires that the edit field provided to edit or enter the 
appropriate path name must be edited.  Neither of my screen-readers could 
enable me to delete or edit characters from that field.  Eventually I 
navigated to that desired folder, used one screen-reader to copy the path to 
the Windows clipboard, then, using the other screen-reader, returned to the 
edit field of interest and pasted the correct path name into that field.  To 
my amazement, that worked!  So, now it talks, sometimes.  If there any 
documentation describing how to use this feature to greatest advantage, I 
have yet to discover it.




What would you want to make ideU more friendly assisted ?


I have no idea how you have accomplished what you have done thus far, 
however, I fear that a great deal more work would be required to make this a 
truely accessible project.  Besides the difficulty described immediately 
above, there is precious little feedback provided for common operations. 
For example, after I launch IDEU, if I press the key combination "Alt key + 
The letter F," the currently selected menu option is voiced.  If I failed to 
understand what was spoken, I have found no means by which I can have the 
same announcement restated.  So, I thought, I'll just press the down-arrow 
key where I will surely hear an announcement describing the next item on the 
option list under the File menu.  Then, I can press the up-arrow key and I 
will here the same announcement that I didn't quite understand just moments 
before.  Well, the only announcements heard when pressing the down-arrow key 
or the up-arrow key was "down" and then "up."  I'm sure that you can 
appreciate that it is more important to hear the name of the newly 
highlighted menu option than it is to hear which arrow-key has been pressed. 
As for the edit screen where one would expect to enter their source code, I 
cannot say whether that is accessable or not because I was never able to get 
into one, as far as I could determine.
I don't mean to sound like a harsh critic, its just obvious to me that 
sighted folks have no true understanding of the obstacles faced by those of 
us who are without any usable sight.
Furthermore, as I stated earlier, if there is any documentation for the 
proper use of the accessability features of IDEU, perhaps such documentation 
would enlighten me as to how to overcome the obstacles I have described 
herein.  If such documentation exists, please advise how and where it may be 
acquired.



I am open for any suggestions.


I wish I could offer some helpful suggestions, however, I have no idea how 
the authors of the existing screen-reader software packages capture the 
display data and pass it on to the text-to-speech engines.  Suffice it to 
say that the two screen-readers available to me have been around for years, 
have been constantly updated and still they have many problems providing 
complete access to all that is out there.  Having said all that, I would 
have no difficulty understanding your reluctance to attemp to perfect 
accessability for IDEU.


Please believe that I do appreciate your interest and your efforts.

Bob



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Re: [fpc-pascal] SysSetCtrlBreakHandler

[Dmitry Boyarintsev]

On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 5:13 PM, Tomas Hajny  wrote:

>
> 1) Instead of using the special handler registered via
> SetConsoleCtrlHandler (invoked in a special thread), isn't it possible to
> process this event in the exception handler (running in the same thread
> probably)?
>

Not that I'm (or MSDN) aware of.
Instead there is a flag ENABLE_PROCESSED_INPUT that's on by default for a
console.
It would suppress the handler for Ctrl+C and would pass it as a regular key
combination (bringing the desired #3 keychar).

(as I noted in my comment in the bug tracker, clearing
ENABLE_PROCESSED_INPUT flag was used originally. See TurnMouseOff
procedure. However it was removed at some point, causing the regression?)

Windows is raising an exception only if a process is being debugged, so a
debugger would be aware of it. That's the only time, whenever the exception
is used. MSDN however doesn't specify at what thread the exception is
risen.

So the newest patch removes all threading-related concerns.

thanks,
Dmitry
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Using the LCL without Lazarus

[BobJ]

Terrific response, many thanks!

I'll see what I can do...

Bob



--
From: "Mattias Gaertner" 
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 3:45 AM
To: 
Subject: Re: [fpc-pascal] Using the LCL without Lazarus


On Tue, 29 Nov 2016 20:42:36 -0500
"BobJ"  wrote:


[...]
 Begin web-site excerpt 

Using the LCL without Lazarus

1How to use the LCL without the Lazarus IDE?
1.1Requirements
1.2Introduction
1.3The installation process
1.4The settings
1.5The code
1.6Lazarus 1.2.6
2Alternatives
How to use the LCL without the Lazarus IDE?

Requirements
Things you'll need:
.  Free Pascal 2.4.4
.  Lazarus 0.9.30


That's very old.
Current is FPC 3.0.0 and Lazarus 1.6.2.


Tested on Microsoft Windows XP SP3.

Introduction

You are not forced to use the Lazarus IDE if you want to develop with the 
LCL. You can use it directly from the Free Pascal Compiler.


True.



[...]
1. I have FPC ver 3.0.0 and Lazarus ver 1.6
Should the instructions given in the excerpt be applicable with these 
versions, as well?


Pretty much. Although this setup adds source paths so every program
will compile the LCL, creating many copies and may result in a mess.
Where did you find this?

I recommend to simply install using the Lazarus installer.
If you don't want to install the IDE you can do alternatively:
Download and install FPC.
Then download the Lazarus sources (e.g. to C:\lazarus) and build them:
Make sure FPC 'bin' is in PATH environment variable, cd C:\lazarus, and
execute 'make clean all'. This will build the LCL for win32, lazbuild
and the IDE.

Whatever you chose, next do:

Add to your fpc.cfg:
-FuC:\lazarus\component\lazutils\lib\i386-win32
-FuC:\lazarus\lcl\units\i386-win32
-FuC:\lazarus\lcl\units\i386-win32\win32

Do not add source or include paths - it can create a mess and strange
errors.

Now you can use the LCL in your programs.



2. Is it safe to assume that when they say
"You are not forced to use the Lazarus IDE if you want to develop with 
the LCL. You can use it directly from the Free Pascal Compiler."
that they mean that the source code can be submitted to FPC at the 
command line?


Yes. Lazarus calls FPC itself.
If you use some Lazarus packages, you can build them using lazbuild.
Then add the directories containing the ppu files to your fpc.cfg, and
*only* those directories.


3. As I stated somewhere above, the FP IDE is not accessable at a 
practical level so, is there some other way that I can satisfy the 
requirements to do the following?


Start the FP IDE (included with FPC).
[...]


I leave this open for others.

Mattias
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Re: [fpc-pascal] For..in enumerator for generic records?

[leledumbo]

> I just tried this really quick and it doesn’t seem to work with records but
if I changed it to a class that worked.

Just as you can't declare next field to be a record when learning linked
list (well, we normally learned that some time in the past), the solution is
just the same here: declare and use pointer to the record instead. Using
classes, however, the pointer can be abstracted and you will have less messy
code.




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Re: [fpc-pascal] Using the LCL without Lazarus

[fredvs]

Hello.

> My attempts to use the following software has proven to be unsuccessful
> because of the "unfriendly" nature of their video displays:
> IDEU IDE

What do you mean with "unfriendly" nature of their video displays" ?
Did you enable "Voice Assisted" feature of ideU ?

What would you want to make ideU more friendly assisted ? 

I am open for any suggestions.

PS: MSEgui has a perfectly working assisted interface.

Fre;D



-
Many thanks ;-)
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Re: [fpc-pascal] For..in enumerator for generic records?

[Mattias Gaertner]

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 18:24:11 +0700
Ryan Joseph  wrote:

>[...] I can wrap my head around nested types in classes because they’re 
>necessary for generics I just learned but nested classes feel messy. Is there 
>at least some namespace protection?

Yes.
And it follows visibility rules.

> That would be a benefit I suppose if the class was only ever used
> inside that class but a unit may be a better option in that case.

Mattias
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Re: [fpc-pascal] For..in enumerator for generic records?

[Ryan Joseph]

> On Nov 30, 2016, at 6:19 PM, Graeme Geldenhuys 
>  wrote:
> 
> Yeah, those were introduced in FPC 3.0.0 I believe - more Delphi
> compatibility changes. I still don’t know if I like it though, but
> understand its usage is meant if two classes are very close related. You
> can now have nested classes (god knows how deep), constants, vars etc
> all inside a class definition. The Delphi version of the Object Pascal
> language is becoming pretty messy.

Big mess indeed. I can wrap my head around nested types in classes because 
they’re necessary for generics I just learned but nested classes feel messy. Is 
there at least some namespace protection? That would be a benefit I suppose if 
the class was only ever used inside that class but a unit may be a better 
option in that case.

Regards,
Ryan Joseph

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Re: [fpc-pascal] For..in enumerator for generic records?

[Ryan Joseph]

> On Nov 30, 2016, at 6:22 PM, Marco van de Voort  wrote:
> 
> * (for..in) Enumerators in records

Where’s an example of this? I’m trying it with a generic record and I can’t it 
to compile so I’m not sure if this is supported or not.

Regards,
Ryan Joseph

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Re: [fpc-pascal] For..in enumerator for generic records?

[Ryan Joseph]

> On Nov 30, 2016, at 6:24 PM, Graeme Geldenhuys 
>  wrote:
> 
> What would you iterate/enumerate in that?  I can understand iterating an
> "array of TMyRec", but not TMyRec itself.

I have a dynamic array inside a record. I’m using a record instead of a class 
because I want it to be stored on the stack. It’s trivial to just enumerate the 
array inside the record but I wanted to try the more elegant solution of  
making an enumerator for the record.

Regards,
Ryan Joseph

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Re: [fpc-pascal] For..in enumerator for generic records?

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2016-11-30 11:22, Marco van de Voort wrote:
> D2006/ FPC 2.6.0


Thanks for the correction Marco. Wow, that long ago already.


Regards,
  Graeme

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Re: [fpc-pascal] For..in enumerator for generic records?

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2016-11-30 04:03, Ryan Joseph wrote:
> I have a generic record I would like to enumerate using for..in loops.

Maybe generics are redefining this, but a record (as I understand it) is
something like

   TMyRec = record
 StrField: string;
 IntField: integer;
 BoleanField: boolean;
   end;

What would you iterate/enumerate in that?  I can understand iterating an
"array of TMyRec", but not TMyRec itself.


Regards,
  Graeme

-- 
fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp
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Re: [fpc-pascal] For..in enumerator for generic records?

[Marco van de Voort]

In our previous episode, Graeme Geldenhuys said:
> Yeah, those were introduced in FPC 3.0.0 

D2006/ FPC 2.6.0

from 2.6.0 release manifest:
http://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php?topic=15656.0

* Delphi compatibility mode improvements
* Nested types, class variables and class local constants
* Advanced records syntax (no constructors yet)
* (for..in) Enumerators in records
* Class and record helpers
* Generic records, arrays and procedural types
* Delphi-compatibility of generics improved
* Scoped enumerations
* Custom messages for "deprecated" directive
* Ability to use "&" for escaping keywords
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Re: [fpc-pascal] For..in enumerator for generic records?

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2016-11-30 10:53, Ryan Joseph wrote:
> There’s a class nested inside a class?? I never saw that before.

Yeah, those were introduced in FPC 3.0.0 I believe - more Delphi
compatibility changes. I still don’t know if I like it though, but
understand its usage is meant if two classes are very close related. You
can now have nested classes (god knows how deep), constants, vars etc
all inside a class definition. The Delphi version of the Object Pascal
language is becoming pretty messy.

Regards,
  Graeme

-- 
fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp
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Re: [fpc-pascal] For..in enumerator for generic records?

[Ryan Joseph]

There’s a class nested inside a class?? I never saw that before. What are all 
the inlines for btw?

> On Nov 30, 2016, at 3:09 PM, Sven Barth  wrote:
> 
> Take a look at packages/fcl-stl/src/gvector.pp, it's a generic vector 
> container that provides an enumerator.
> 
> 

Regards,
Ryan Joseph

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Re: [fpc-pascal] For..in enumerator for generic records?

[Ryan Joseph]

I just tried this really quick and it doesn’t seem to work with records but if 
I changed it to a class that worked. Maybe I should use an object instead so 
it’s stored on the stack like a record? Not very important it can enumerate but 
I wanted to try first.

> On Nov 30, 2016, at 5:53 PM, Ryan Joseph  wrote:
> 
> There’s a class nested inside a class?? I never saw that before. What are all 
> the inlines for btw?

Regards,
Ryan Joseph

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Using the LCL without Lazarus

[Mattias Gaertner]

On Tue, 29 Nov 2016 20:42:36 -0500
"BobJ"  wrote:

>[...]
>  Begin web-site excerpt 
> 
> Using the LCL without Lazarus
> 
> 1How to use the LCL without the Lazarus IDE?
> 1.1Requirements
> 1.2Introduction
> 1.3The installation process
> 1.4The settings
> 1.5The code
> 1.6Lazarus 1.2.6
> 2Alternatives
> How to use the LCL without the Lazarus IDE?
>  
> Requirements
> Things you'll need: 
> .  Free Pascal 2.4.4 
> .  Lazarus 0.9.30 

That's very old.
Current is FPC 3.0.0 and Lazarus 1.6.2.

> Tested on Microsoft Windows XP SP3. 
> 
> Introduction
> 
> You are not forced to use the Lazarus IDE if you want to develop with the 
> LCL. You can use it directly from the Free Pascal Compiler.  

True.

 
>[...]
> 1. I have FPC ver 3.0.0 and Lazarus ver 1.6
> Should the instructions given in the excerpt be applicable with these 
> versions, as well?

Pretty much. Although this setup adds source paths so every program
will compile the LCL, creating many copies and may result in a mess.
Where did you find this?

I recommend to simply install using the Lazarus installer. 
If you don't want to install the IDE you can do alternatively:
Download and install FPC. 
Then download the Lazarus sources (e.g. to C:\lazarus) and build them:
Make sure FPC 'bin' is in PATH environment variable, cd C:\lazarus, and
execute 'make clean all'. This will build the LCL for win32, lazbuild
and the IDE.

Whatever you chose, next do:

Add to your fpc.cfg:
-FuC:\lazarus\component\lazutils\lib\i386-win32
-FuC:\lazarus\lcl\units\i386-win32
-FuC:\lazarus\lcl\units\i386-win32\win32

Do not add source or include paths - it can create a mess and strange
errors.

Now you can use the LCL in your programs.

 
> 2. Is it safe to assume that when they say
> "You are not forced to use the Lazarus IDE if you want to develop with the 
> LCL. You can use it directly from the Free Pascal Compiler."
> that they mean that the source code can be submitted to FPC at the command 
> line?

Yes. Lazarus calls FPC itself.
If you use some Lazarus packages, you can build them using lazbuild.
Then add the directories containing the ppu files to your fpc.cfg, and
*only* those directories.

 
> 3. As I stated somewhere above, the FP IDE is not accessable at a practical 
> level so, is there some other way that I can satisfy the requirements to do 
> the following?
> 
> Start the FP IDE (included with FPC).
>[...]

I leave this open for others.

Mattias
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Re: [fpc-pascal] For..in enumerator for generic records?

[Sven Barth]

Am 30.11.2016 05:35 schrieb "Ryan Joseph" :
>
> I have a generic record I would like to enumerate using for..in loops. Is
this even possible? I tried briefly and it wasn’t clear this was possible
so I thought I’d ask first. Thanks.
>

Take a look at packages/fcl-stl/src/gvector.pp, it's a generic vector
container that provides an enumerator.

Regards,
Sven
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Re: [fpc-pascal] For..in enumerator for generic records?

[leledumbo]

> I have a generic record I would like to enumerate using for..in loops. Is
this even possible? I tried briefly and it wasn’t clear this was possible so
I thought I’d ask first. Thanks. 

Take a look at how gvector implements it:
http://svn.freepascal.org/svn/fpc/tags/release_3_0_0/packages/fcl-stl/src/gvector.pp



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