Re: [Freedos-user] USB fl

2017-05-06 Thread RUGXULO 
From: Rugxulo 

Hi,

On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 5:57 PM, Ralf Quint  wrote:
> On 1/2/2017 12:18 PM, dmccunney wrote:
>>
>>> In particular, here's "Installing Windows 2000 on an SD Card"
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/user/Druaga1/
>>
>> I have Win10 and Ubuntu installed on an SSD on my desktop, and it
>> speeds things up a treat.
>>
>> I could install Win2K to SSD, but there's no point.
>
> A "SD card" and a SSD drive are two totally different animals, it's
> pretty much comparing a Vespa with a Ferrari. Both have a motor, wheels
> and come from Italy, but they both simply service different purposes and
> have hugely different performance...

Okay, this was partially my fault for the confusion. I didn't remember
which videos of his were SSD or not, all I remembered was various
Windows reinstalls, including the (relevant to our conversation)
Win2k, which turned out to be SD instead.

He does a lot of SSD videos, apparently, that's his gimmick (almost).
This wasn't really a true, technical suggestion by me for a learning
tutorial but more along the lines of "hey, look at this guy's videos,
it seems funny / interesting, if you're bored".

On his YouTube channel, I count 11 videos with "SSD" in the title, and
that's just the first page of most recent stuff.

Eventually I'm going to watch the ReactOS video (but it's an hour
long, hence my procrastination, but boy did he upload that one fast!).
Though I don't expect any huge changes in recent updates (e.g. buggy
NTVDM).

P.S. Just to pretend to stay on topic, he does have a few "Ultimate
DOS Machine" videos, too (that I also haven't watched yet).

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Re: [Freedos-user] USB fl

2017-05-06 Thread RALF QUINT 
From: Ralf Quint 

On 1/2/2017 12:18 PM, dmccunney wrote:
>
>> In particular, here's "Installing Windows 2000 on an SD Card":
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-hDOiI0-6s
> I have Win10 and Ubuntu installed on an SSD on my desktop, and it
> speeds things up a treat.
>
> I could install Win2K to SSD, but there's no point.
A "SD card" and a SSD drive are two totally different animals, it's
pretty much comparing a Vespa with a Ferrari. Both have a motor, wheels
and come from Italy, but they both simply service different purposes and
have hugely different performance...

Ralf

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Re: [Freedos-user] USB fl

2017-05-06 Thread DMCCUNNEY 
From: dmccunney 

On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 12:41 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 8:52 PM, dmccunney  wrote:
>> On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 8:56 PM, Thomas Mueller  wrote:
>>
>> My old notebook was set to multiboot, with Win2K Pro, a couple of
>> flavors of Linux, and FreeDOS on separate HD partitions.
>
> Do you ever watch YouTube? I found a guy recently (Druaga1) who made
> various videos about (re)installing various Windows on old machines,
> especially regarding him also putting in SSD drives (etc.) to see if
> it increases speed.

I do watch YouTube, but not for stuff like this.  I can *read* a lot
faster than I can *watch*, and I don't need the visual aids if I have
decent written instructions.

> In particular, here's "Installing Windows 2000 on an SD Card":
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-hDOiI0-6s

I have Win10 and Ubuntu installed on an SSD on my desktop, and it
speeds things up a treat.

I could install Win2K to SSD, but there's no point.

The ancient notebook came to me with WinXP SP2 installed.  It had a
whopping 265MB RAM, and the Crusoe CPU grabbed 16MB off the top for
code morphing.  XP wants 512MB RAM to *think* about performing.  The
machine as I got it took 8 minutes to simply boot, and a lot more to
do anything.

I reformatted and re-partitioned the drive, installing Win2K on an
NTFS slice, Ubuntu and Puppy Linux on ext4 slices, and FreeDOS on a
FAT32 slice.  Win2K actually runs more or less acceptably in that
little RAM, especially when everything that can be removed from
Startup is.  Ubuntu and Puppy behaved reasonably.  FreeDOS flew.

A roadblock was a limitation to IDE4 for the HD.  This was a BIOS
restriction.  I doubted installing an SSD would provide the sort of
performance boost it might otherwise, and in any case, the machine was
purely a test bed to see what performance I could wring out of it
*without* throwing money at it.  That meant no new hardware.

I had fun tweaking, configuring, and learning, but had no actual
regular job for the machine to do.  When I'd taken it as far as I
could, I put it on a shelf.

>> IIRC, I formatted the FreeDOS partition FAT32.  But getting FreeDOS to
*boot*
>> from a grub2 menu was a challenge, and I had to do a lot of fiddling
>> before it worked.  I never did figure out just which fiddle did the
>> trick.  Then an unrelated problem forced me to wipe and reinstall 2K
>> and redo multi-boot under grub2.  I got Windows and Linux booting
>> again, but never could get FreeDOS back.
>>
>> I haven't even booted the machine in a year or more.
>
> Would ms-sys ( http://ms-sys.sourceforge.net/ ) help? Dunno!

I don't know either, but frankly don't care.  See above about test bed.

> It's times like that which suggest reformatting / reinstalling. If
> you're not using it anyways (assuming you double-check and backup any
> semi-important files), you may as well fix it.

It simply isn't worth the time and effort involved.  Actually work all
got done elsewhere.  Nothing on the machine would be lost if it went
away.

But I don't have anything to do with the machine if I *did* fix it.
Without a plausible use case, why bother?  I have too many other
things to do with the time it would take.

> The "good" (ha!) thing about Linux is that it becomes obsolete fairly
> quickly, so reinstalling is usually an improvement.

Depends.  I had to reinstall Ubuntu, when a version upgrade failed.
The last step in the upgrade was installing a new kernel.  The new
kernel needed PAE support.  The old box didn't have it.  KErnel
installation failed, and that caused a cascade failure on reboot.  I
wound up wiping, reformatting, and reinstalling Ubuntu from scratch on
its slice, then stopping carefully just *before* the update that
caused the problems.

I don't use the machine anymore, so it no longer matters.

> I had a USB jump drive with antiX Mepis Linux (13.2? circa 2013),
> which was fairly interesting, useful, and quite speedy. Honestly, I
> was morbidly curious how well it would work since they claimed it
> worked on PIII-class machines (aka, obsolete), although I don't have
> that need. But the included Firefox was old (various websites, e.g.
> Google stuff, complained), and it had some other things that were old
> (I forget, honestly). Long story short, I just reinstalled to a newer
> version (16.1?) about a week ago, which brings Firefox ESR, newer
> kernel, and some other goodies.

Browsing was problematic on the old notebook.  Win2K was limited to IE
6 if you ran IE.  Firefox was simply too big and resource hungry under
Win2K or Linux.  It would take something like 45 seconds to load, and
was perceptibly sluggish when up.  Chrome and Opera invoked faster,
but I don't really care for either.  In general, I simply didn't
browse from that machine.

> (And it [still] has DOSBox pre-installed, woot!)

I have a port of DOSBox on my Android tablet, with several old

Re: [Freedos-user] USB fl

2017-05-06 Thread RUGXULO 
From: Rugxulo 

Hi,

On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 8:52 PM, dmccunney  wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 8:56 PM, Thomas Mueller  wrote:
>
> My old notebook was set to multiboot, with Win2K Pro, a couple of
> flavors of Linux, and FreeDOS on separate HD partitions.

Do you ever watch YouTube? I found a guy recently (Druaga1) who made
various videos about (re)installing various Windows on old machines,
especially regarding him also putting in SSD drives (etc.) to see if
it increases speed.

In particular, here's "Installing Windows 2000 on an SD Card":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-hDOiI0-6s

> IIRC, I formatted the FreeDOS partition FAT32.  But getting FreeDOS to
*boot*
> from a grub2 menu was a challenge, and I had to do a lot of fiddling
> before it worked.  I never did figure out just which fiddle did the
> trick.  Then an unrelated problem forced me to wipe and reinstall 2K
> and redo multi-boot under grub2.  I got Windows and Linux booting
> again, but never could get FreeDOS back.
>
> I haven't even booted the machine in a year or more.

Would ms-sys ( http://ms-sys.sourceforge.net/ ) help? Dunno!

It's times like that which suggest reformatting / reinstalling. If
you're not using it anyways (assuming you double-check and backup any
semi-important files), you may as well fix it.

The "good" (ha!) thing about Linux is that it becomes obsolete fairly
quickly, so reinstalling is usually an improvement.

I had a USB jump drive with antiX Mepis Linux (13.2? circa 2013),
which was fairly interesting, useful, and quite speedy. Honestly, I
was morbidly curious how well it would work since they claimed it
worked on PIII-class machines (aka, obsolete), although I don't have
that need. But the included Firefox was old (various websites, e.g.
Google stuff, complained), and it had some other things that were old
(I forget, honestly). Long story short, I just reinstalled to a newer
version (16.1?) about a week ago, which brings Firefox ESR, newer
kernel, and some other goodies. (And it [still] has DOSBox
pre-installed, woot!)

>> My computer hardware no longer has any floppy capability.
>
> Nor most of mine, but that's why a USB floppy drive is a useful accessory.

In this day and age, we need to backup everything, or heavily rely on
the ever-present network for exchanging files. Relying on static media
is still a valid option, but there is no single ultra-reliable source,
so it's best not to keep too many eggs in one basket. Dare I be naive
and state the obvious? "Free" software is easier to acquire / backup /
(re)install than constantly worrying about proprietary muck. It's not
all doom and gloom, but the simpler the better.

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Re: [Freedos-user] USB fl

2017-05-06 Thread LOUIS SANTILLAN 
From: Louis Santillan 

If the drive (vs. the floppy) itself remains an issue in the 486,
devices like these [0] are becoming popular.  Just plugin some old USB
flash drive with the image file and you're good to go.

Gotek Floppy Drive Emulator
[0] http://a.co/48x3vtl

On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 6:52 PM, dmccunney  wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 8:56 PM, Thomas Mueller  wrote:
>>> That brings back memories.  Back in the day, there was discussion of
>>> which *brand* of floppies to use, if you wanted to write something to
>>> floppy, put it on a shelf, and be able to read it again 5 years from
>>> now.  At the time, the "gold standard" was Dysan.  Floppy disk media
>>> varied in quality, and if you bought based on lowest price, you
>>> deserved what you got.
>>
>>> Floppies are sill made and sold - see http://www.floppydisk.com/.  I'd
>>> get new ones to try this on instead of trying to reuse ancient stuff
>>> lying around.
>>
>> I went to that website, mainly for curiosity.
>>
>> Now I don't know how or if the USB floppy drives work, whether some modern
OSes are temperamental in that regard.
>
> I have one here.  It works on my machines, and is seen as A: under
> Windows and /dev/fd0 under Linux (IIRC - not in Linux at the moment.)
> The other modern OS that might be in use is OS/X, but I'm pretty sure
> USB floppy drives work there too.
>
> For more obscure stuff, you try it, and if it breaks, you get to keep
> the pieces.
>
>> For the internal drives, modern motherboards, as far as I can tell, no
longer have floppy headers, making it impossible to connect a regular floppy
drive.
>
> Which is why you use a USB floppy drive if you need to read floppies.
>
>> The modern "floppy" is a USB stick.
>
> Yep.  When I installed Linux to dual boot on my desktop, I did so from
> a bootable USB stick with the Ubuntu installer on it.
>
> That worked because my machine could be set to boot from a USB stick.
> I have FreeDOS installed on an ancient (2005) Notebook.  It has a USB
> 2.0 add-on card and can read USB sticks, but cannot *boot* from them.
> If I were trying to install DOS as the OS on the HD in that machine,
> I'd have to boot from a DOS floppy in the USB floppy drive.  *That*
> will work.
>
>> There are also external USB hard drives, and Micronet Fantom (micronet.com)
external hard drives with both USB 3 and eSATA, up to 8 TB, if my memory is
accurate.
>
> Sounds about right.
>
>> But FreeDOS, and I believe all other DOSes, have trouble with multi-TB hard
drives, and I would want to partition with GPT, meaning not compatible with
FreeDOS or ReactOS.
>
> Yes, they likely will have problems.
>
> DOS understood FAT16 as the file system.  The smallest area of disk
> readable/writable under DOS is the cluster, and every cluster must have
> a unique address.  FAT16 used a 16 bit address, so you had a maximum
> of 65,536 clusters.  The format routine maxed out at 32K cluster sizes,
> so you got a 2GB limit on volume size for early HDs.  Hard drives got much
> larger, and creating multiple 2GB partitions to stay within DOS's FAT16
limits
> got irksome, so MS created FAT32.  But by that point, Windows was taking
> over.  Getting plain DOS to work on a FAT32 file system on larger drives can
> be a challenge. (I believe current FreeDOS kernels have FAT32 support.)
>
> My old notebook was set to multiboot, with Win2K Pro, a couple of
> flavors of Linux, and FreeDOS on separate HD partitions. IIRC, I
> formatted the FreeDOS partition FAT32.  But getting FreeDOS to *boot*
> from a grub2 menu was a challenge, and I had to do a lot of fiddling
> before it worked.  I never did figure out just which fiddle did the
> trick.  Then an unrelated problem forced me to wipe and reinstall 2K
> and redo multi-boot under grub2.  I got Windows and Linux booting
> again, but never could get FreeDOS back.
>
> I haven't even booted the machine in a year or more.
>
>> My computer hardware no longer has any floppy capability.
>
> Nor most of mine, but that's why a USB floppy drive is a useful accessory.
>
>> Tom
> __
> Dennis
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] USB fl

2017-05-06 Thread DMCCUNNEY 
From: dmccunney 

On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 7:09 PM, Santiago Almenara  wrote:
> 2017-01-01 18:52 GMT-05:00 dmccunney :

>> That brings back memories.  Back in the day, there was discussion of
>> which *brand* of floppies to use, if you wanted to write something to
>> floppy, put it on a shelf, and be able to read it again 5 years from
>> now.  At the time, the "gold standard" was Dysan.  Floppy disk media
>> varied in quality, and if you bought based on lowest price, you
>> deserved what you got.
>>
>> Floppies are sill made and sold - see http://www.floppydisk.com/.  I'd
>> get new ones to try this on instead of trying to reuse ancient stuff
>> lying around.
>
> Excuse me, I don't want to start a flame war but
>
> I always thought that floppy disks production were pretty dead, maybe some
> obscure Chinese brand were still making them.
> In the other hand, are Imation, 3M or Sony still making floppies???

AFAIK, yes.

But in the stated case, it doesn't matter.

I believe the OP wants to put DOS on a floppy he can boot from, and
from there install it on a hard drive.

It doesn't have to be a top quality, long lasting disk, as nothing of
value will be stored on it long term.  It just has to format and work
long enough.  Cheap noname Chinese floppies will do.

> Santiago
__
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Re: [Freedos-user] USB fl

2017-05-06 Thread DMCCUNNEY 
From: dmccunney 

On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Thomas Mueller  wrote:

> I never had a USB floppy drive but have experience with regular floppy
drives, 3.5" and 5.25".
>
> In the later years, I had great trouble with floppy drives.  Ability to
write was lost before the ability to read.  5.25" floppies seemed to have
better shelf life than 3.5".
>
> FreeDOS did better than Linux with floppy drives, and Linux did better than
FreeBSD or NetBSD.
>
> Error messages you got with that floppy disk were roughly consistent with
what I would get with floppies from 1995 and thereabouts.
>
> Even floppies that I had never used proved unusable.

That brings back memories.  Back in the day, there was discussion of
which *brand* of floppies to use, if you wanted to write something to
floppy, put it on a shelf, and be able to read it again 5 years from
now.  At the time, the "gold standard" was Dysan.  Floppy disk media
varied in quality, and if you bought based on lowest price, you
deserved what you got.

Floppies are sill made and sold - see http://www.floppydisk.com/.  I'd
get new ones to try this on instead of trying to reuse ancient stuff
lying around.

> Tom
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Re: [Freedos-user] USB fl

2017-05-06 Thread THOMAS MUELLER 
From: "Thomas Mueller" 

> I was asked why I cannot put FreeDOS on a floppy. Here is the reason. I
> just tried another floppy disk that I found. It is original from before
> 1995, so it may be broken. I can try to check on my 486 once it is up
> and running, but for now this is what I get on Linux when I put the disk
> into the USB floppy drive.



> [14502.458855] usb 3-1.2: new full-speed USB device number 11 using ehci-pci
> [14502.592376] usb 3-1.2: New USB device found, idVendor=0409,
> idProduct=0040
> [14502.592381] usb 3-1.2: New USB device strings: Mfr=1, Product=2,
> SerialNumber=0
> [14502.592385] usb 3-1.2: Product: NEC USB UF000x
> [14502.592387] usb 3-1.2: Manufacturer: NEC
> [14502.594614] usb-storage 3-1.2:1.0: USB Mass Storage device detected
> [14502.594740] usb-storage 3-1.2:1.0: Quirks match for vid 0409 pid 0040: 1
> [14502.594802] scsi host6: usb-storage 3-1.2:1.0
> [14503.654640] scsi 6:0:0:0: Direct-Access NEC  USB UF000x
1.60 PQ: 0 ANSI: 0 CCS
> [14503.666875] sd 6:0:0:0: Attached scsi generic sg2 type 0
> [14507.558821] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdc] Read Capacity(10) failed: Result:
> hostbyte=DID_OK driverbyte=DRIVER_SENSE
> [14507.558827] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdc] Sense Key : Medium Error [current]
> [14507.558831] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdc] Add. Sense: Cannot read medium -
> unknown format
> [14507.622812] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdc] Write Protect is on
> [14507.622821] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdc] Mode Sense: 00 46 94 80
> [14507.686775] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdc] No Caching mode page found
> [14507.686782] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdc] Assuming drive cache: write through
> [14508.134833] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdc] Read Capacity(10) failed: Result:
> hostbyte=DID_OK driverbyte=DRIVER_SENSE
> [14508.134842] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdc] Sense Key : Medium Error [current]
> [14508.134847] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdc] Add. Sense: Cannot read medium -
> unknown format
> [14508.390739] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdc] Attached SCSI removable disk
> [14511.206876] EXT4-fs (sdc): unable to read superblock
> [14511.270868] EXT4-fs (sdc): unable to read superblock
> [14511.334865] EXT4-fs (sdc): unable to read superblock
> [14511.398905] FAT-fs (sdc): unable to read boot sector


> I don't really expect help here. It is just a message to get the
> understand for why I cannot load FreeDOS onto a floppy at this time.


> Happy 2017!

> Userbeitrag.

I never had a USB floppy drive but have experience with regular floppy drives,
3.5" and 5.25".

In the later years, I had great trouble with floppy drives.  Ability to write
was lost before the ability to read.  5.25" floppies seemed to have better
shelf life than 3.5".

FreeDOS did better than Linux with floppy drives, and Linux did better than
FreeBSD or NetBSD.

Error messages you got with that floppy disk were roughly consistent with what
I would get with floppies from 1995 and thereabouts.

Even floppies that I had never used proved unusable.

Tom


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 *  Capitol City Online - Frankfort, KY - telnet://capitolcityonline.net


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