[FRIAM] Thrusters powered by ionic wind as efficient alternative propulsion technology -- huge solar powered high altitude airships could spiral into orbit in a week, using their own H2 gas for reacti
Thrusters powered by ionic wind as efficient alternative propulsion technology -- huge solar powered high altitude airships could spiral into orbit in a week, using their own H2 gas as reaction mass for myriad tiny thrusters: Rich Murray 2013.04.04 http://phys.org/news/2013-04-thrusters-powered-ionic-efficient-alternative.html#nwlt Yevgen 13 hours ago comment Efficiency of ionic wind apparatus have been explored and published years ago, in 2002, and optimized designs have been analysed. Collection of these publications can be found here: http://sudy_zhenja.tripod.com/lifter_theory/ Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2013-04-thrusters-powered-ionic-efficient-alternative.html#jCp Thrusters powered by ionic wind may be efficient alternative to conventional atmospheric propulsion technologies April 3, 2013 by Jennifer Chu When a current passes between two electrodes — one thinner than the other — it creates a wind in the air between. If enough voltage is applied, the resulting wind can produce a thrust without the help of motors or fuel. This phenomenon, called electrohydrodynamic thrust — or, more colloquially, ionic wind — was first identified in the 1960s. Since then, ionic wind has largely been limited to science-fair projects and basement experiments; hobbyists have posted hundreds of how-to videos on building ionocrafts — lightweight vehicles made of balsa wood, aluminum foil and wire— that lift off and hover with increased voltage. Despite this wealth of hobbyist information, there have been few rigorous studies of ionic wind as a viable propulsion system. Some researchers have theorized that ionic thrusters, if used as jet propulsion, would be extremely inefficient, requiring massive amounts of electricity to produce enough thrust to propel a vehicle. Now researchers at MIT have run their own experiments and found that ionic thrusters may be a far more efficient source of propulsion than conventional jet engines. In their experiments, they found that ionic wind produces 110 newtons of thrust per kilowatt, compared with a jet engine's 2 newtons per kilowatt. The team has published its results in the Proceedings of the Royal Society. Steven Barrett, an assistant professor of aeronautics and astronautics at MIT, envisions that ionic wind may be used as a propulsion system for small, lightweight aircraft. In addition to their relatively high efficiency, ionic thrusters are silent, and invisible in infrared, as they give off no heat — ideal traits, he says, for a surveillance vehicle. You could imagine all sorts of military or security benefits to having a silent propulsion system with no infrared signature, says Barrett, who co-authored the paper with graduate student Kento Masuyama. Shooting the gap A basic ionic thruster consists of three parts: a very thin copper electrode, called an emitter; a thicker tube of aluminum, known as a collector; and the air gap in between. A lightweight frame typically supports the wires, which connect to an electrical power source. As voltage is applied, the field gradient strips away electrons from nearby air molecules. These newly ionized molecules are strongly repelled by the corona wire, and strongly attracted to the collector. As this cloud of ions moves toward the collector, it collides with surrounding neutral air molecules, pushing them along and creating a wind, or thrust. To measure an ion thruster's efficiency, Barrett and Masuyama built a similarly simple setup, and hung the contraption under a suspended digital scale. They applied tens of thousands of volts, creating enough current draw to power an incandescent light bulb. They altered the distance between the electrodes, and recorded the thrust as the device lifted off the ground. Barrett says that the device was most efficient at producing lower thrust — a desirable, albeit counterintuitive, result. It's kind of surprising, but if you have a high-velocity jet, you leave in your wake a load of wasted kinetic energy, Barrett explains. So you want as low-velocity a jet as you can, while still producing enough thrust. He adds that an ionic wind is a good way to produce a low-velocity jet over a large area. Getting to liftoff Barrett acknowledges that there is one big obstacle to ionic wind propulsion: thrust density, or the amount of thrust produced per given area. Ionic thrusters depend on the wind produced between electrodes; the larger the space between electrodes, the stronger the thrust produced. That means lifting a small aircraft and its electrical power supply would require a very large air gap. Barrett envisions that electrodynamic thrusters for aircraft — if they worked — would encompass the entire vehicle. Another drawback is the voltage needed to get a vehicle off the ground: Small, lightweight balsa models require several kilovolts. Barrett estimates a small craft, with onboard instrumentation and a power supply, would need hundreds or thousands of kilovolts. The voltages could
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Browser market share
Owen, Yes, Netflix is implemented with HTML5 on the Samsung (ARM) Chromebook. Could you see Google allowing a M$ solution on one of their products? Originally, Google Netflix were going to implement the app for the cb with NACL, but apparently changed their minds. -Doug On Apr 3, 2013 10:00 PM, Steve Smith sasm...@swcp.com wrote: Doug - Not to disturb you and Wallander, but here's a browserDrivel question: are you saying Netflix is streaming to your Chromebook without Silverlight?I'd like to never see Silverlight again... - Steve QUIT BOTHERING ME WITH THIS PISSANT BROWSER DRIVEL! I'm watching Wallander on my Google Chromebook with Netflix running ad an html5 implementation in my Chrome browser. Or at least I would be if you all would quit going on and on and on about javascript, and Mozilla, and wtf else... Thank you. On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:15 AM, Owen Densmore o...@backspaces.net wrote: I'm a bit surprised that Chrome is behind Fire Fox. http://www.netmarketshare.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qprid=1qpcustomb=0 This makes me more interested in asm.js than ever. And MozPhone. And Emscripten. And Rust. I wish the Dev Tools weren't so opaque. -- Owen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com -- *Doug Roberts d...@parrot-farm.net* *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins * 505-455-7333 - Office 505-672-8213 - Mobile* FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] John Resig - Asm.js: The JavaScript Compile Target
I read the first half of their tutorial last night. I looks that they have attacked one of the weak points of C++ in a componentized world -- making sure that pointers don't outlive the object they are pointing to, even when passed to unknown (at compile time) functions and marshaled to other processes. The smart pointers that Mozilla uses help, but there is no static checking, and crashes and memory leaks are a big problem in development. It will be interesting when Rust moves out into the wider world, if it does. --Barry On Apr 3, 2013, at 4:18 PM, mar...@snoutfarm.com wrote: Well, the reason I mentioned it wasn't it was yet another Let's fix C++ by harvesting ideas from the computer science literature. effort, e.g. D, but that it 1) is from Mozilla (Eich) and aims to be a platform for a next generation browser, and even one that runs on mobile devices, and 2) it isn't JavaScript. It's not just about performance, it's about safety and correctness. Marcus myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft® Windows® and Linux web and application hosting - http://link.myhosting.com/myhosting FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending
I agree with Feynman. Sort of, with a caveat to follow after a short digression. What about the placebo effect, a standard reference for FDA approval of medications? There's no money in it (actually, there's a lot of money in it) but the effects - 30% efficacy I heard once - are impressive, without side effects. A P Dijsterkuihttp://www.unconsciouslab.com/index.php?subpage=Ap%20Dijksterhuispage=Peoples is doing the Feynman thing with methods of decision-making and how the conscious - and unconscious - mind works. The obstacle as I see it is cultural - a sense of glee and see, we told you so on the part of the woo faction which is singularly unattractive; and on the other hand a harrumph...highly irregular (spoken with an English accent) on the part of the materialists, which also smells of crusty religion. To go beyond either, now that's a stretch. Back to Feynman, I agree with him, and also see that he's following his own bent, a love for analysis, that not everyone will share. Plus when you factor in Heisenberg and the observer's effect on the experiment, etc., at some point we just have to throw up our hands and shake our heads at our own humanity. Ron On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 9:29 PM, Bruce Sherwood bruce.sherw...@gmail.comwrote: Feynman had a nice comment on this, Nick. He suggests that faith healers don't take their faith seriously. Retrieved from http://faculty.randolphcollege.edu/tmichalik/feynman.htm There is an infinite amount of crazy stuff, which, put another way, is that the environment is actively, intensely unscientific. There is talk of telepathy still, although it's dying out. There is faith-healing galore, all over. There is a whole religion of faith-healing. There's a miracle at Lourdes where healing goes on. Now, it might be true that astrology is right. It might be true that if you go to the dentist on the day that Mars is at right angles to Venus, that it is better than if you go on a different day. It might be true that you can be cured by the miracle of Lourdes. But if it is true, it ought to be investigated. Why? To improve it. If it is true, then maybe we can find out if the stars do influence life; that we could make the system more powerful by investigating statistically, scientifically judging the evidence objectively, more carefully. If the healing process works at Lourdes, the question is how far from the site of the miracle can the person, who is ill, stand? Have they in fact made a mistake and the back row is really not working? Or is it working so well that there is plenty of room for more people to be arranged near the place of the miracle? Or is it possible, as it is with the saints which have recently been created in the United States - there is a saint who cured leukemia apparently indirectly - that ribbons that are touched to the sheet of the sick person (the ribbon having previously touched some relic of the saint) increase the cure of leukemia - the question is, is it gradually being diluted? You may laugh, but if you believe in the truth of the healing, then you are responsible to investigate it, to improve its efficiency and to make it satisfactory instead of cheating. For example, it may turn out that after a hundred touches it doesn't work anymore. Now it's also possible that the results of this investigation have other consequences, namely, that nothing is there. FROM: The Pleasure of Finding Things Out, by Richard P. Feynman, Helix Books, 1999, pgs. 106-107. FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com -- Ron Newman, Founder MyIdeatree.com http://www.Ideatree.us The World Happiness Meter http://worldhappinessmeter.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending
If the placebo is double blind I've heard the percentage shoots up. But the fact remains that a mere thought, or belief, is affecting something. If science were untainted that would be the basis for massive investigation. On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Barry MacKichan barry.mackic...@mackichan.com wrote: I've heard it is very effective, but only for a time until the patient discovers it is a placebo. Call it the Lincoln effect (You can fool all of ….). --Barry On Apr 4, 2013, at 11:14 AM, Ron Newman ron.new...@gmail.com wrote: There's no money in it (actually, there's a lot of money in it) but the effects - 30% efficacy I heard once - are impressive, without side effects. FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com -- Ron Newman, Founder MyIdeatree.com http://www.Ideatree.us The World Happiness Meter http://worldhappinessmeter.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending
Barry MacKichan wrote at 04/04/2013 10:29 AM: I've heard it is very effective, but only for a time until the patient discovers it is a placebo. Call it the Lincoln effect (You can fool all of ….). A friend of mine announced that she's now getting acupuncture for her chronic back and neck pain. There's a zealot in our local CfI (http://www.centerforinquiry.net/) group who continuously and loudly shouts about acupuncture being as quackish as homeopathy. (Seriously... is there anything as quackish as homeopathy?) The tiny amount of time I've spent looking into acupuncture indicates that it's mostly nonsense with some slight possibility of truth in regard to certain _pressure_ points and nerve clusters. But nothing that an evidence-based masseuse couldn't achieve more effectively. But I kept my mouth shut and let her talk about how well it's worked so far. My dad also used acupuncture for a racquetball associated injury. He claimed it worked very well... [ahem] ... even better than his chiropractor. I didn't want to introduce any doubt that might interfere with her placebo effect. Interestingly, I was trying to apply the Golden Rule in a post-hoc analysis of my lack of action. Would I want someone to burst my placebo effect bubble? If so, when? Immediately? Or perhaps after some window of time as the placebo effect decays and it bumps up against the hard biophysical/physiological limits? -- == glen e. p. ropella I can't get no peace until I get into motion FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending
But you're missing the point.: *something* is working for them if they believe it is, and is not for you or anyone who doesn't believe it is. The question is how does it work? No, that's not good enough, because it too easily leads back to premature assumptions. The question is: how can placebo be improved. Not set aside but improved. On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:47 AM, glen g...@ropella.name wrote: Barry MacKichan wrote at 04/04/2013 10:29 AM: I've heard it is very effective, but only for a time until the patient discovers it is a placebo. Call it the Lincoln effect (You can fool all of ….). A friend of mine announced that she's now getting acupuncture for her chronic back and neck pain. There's a zealot in our local CfI (http://www.centerforinquiry.net/) group who continuously and loudly shouts about acupuncture being as quackish as homeopathy. (Seriously... is there anything as quackish as homeopathy?) The tiny amount of time I've spent looking into acupuncture indicates that it's mostly nonsense with some slight possibility of truth in regard to certain _pressure_ points and nerve clusters. But nothing that an evidence-based masseuse couldn't achieve more effectively. But I kept my mouth shut and let her talk about how well it's worked so far. My dad also used acupuncture for a racquetball associated injury. He claimed it worked very well... [ahem] ... even better than his chiropractor. I didn't want to introduce any doubt that might interfere with her placebo effect. Interestingly, I was trying to apply the Golden Rule in a post-hoc analysis of my lack of action. Would I want someone to burst my placebo effect bubble? If so, when? Immediately? Or perhaps after some window of time as the placebo effect decays and it bumps up against the hard biophysical/physiological limits? -- == glen e. p. ropella I can't get no peace until I get into motion FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com -- Ron Newman, Founder MyIdeatree.com http://www.Ideatree.us The World Happiness Meter http://worldhappinessmeter.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
[FRIAM] Woo
Ron- If the placebo is double blind I've heard the percentage shoots up. But the fact remains that a mere thought, or belief, is affecting something. If science were untainted that would be the basis for massive investigation. I like your point. When I first recognized the significance of a *double* blind test, it shocked me. Now I accept it as obvious. I have any number of friends and acquaintances who subscribe to what is hard for me to measure as anything but woo in the hard sense, yet I see they derive significant value from it in a softer sense. *Naturapathy and Homeopathy* While I accept significant (materialist?) utility to some Naturapthy, Homeopathy is beyond the pale (materialistically). Yet many who I know who resort to both or either gain at least two benefits... one is the placebo effect.The other is that it soothes their hypochondria... to whatever extent they might be seeking attention from others (or themselves) it offers them a (usually) benign forum to play that out in. They have something to talk about with like minded people and even professionals who will assure them that their symptoms are as real as the cures being offered. This may sound cynical, and maybe it is, but it is also pragmatic. I believe a lot of these people would be a lot more miserable *without* access to snake oil than they are with it. Their remedies, even without a materialist/causal embedding soothes them and allows them to relax and provide other forms of useful self care (rest, nutrition, sunshine, exercise...) which *do* have understood materialist/causal mechanisms. It always disturbs me when someone offers to pray for me when I have an affliction, but I do believe it helps them and am sorry I can't offer them the same... The best I have to offer is I'll be thinking good thoughts, or I wish the best, etc. *Oracles* I am almost always offended when someone starts explaining to me my own behaviour or circumstances based on the alignment of the stars (at birth) and planets (at birth, in the moment, etc.). I also find the casting of bones, dice, coins, or fishing through tea leaves or goat entrails potentially quite disturbing as a way of trying to predict the future. On the other hand, I do believe there is great potential in using whatever methods or systems you have at hand to try to reflect on and meditate on the present state of your life and the implications of that for the future. The /I Ching/, for example, offers a wide range of insightful and thoughtful ways of thinking about the world and our place in it. Whether the specific reading one gets by tossing down their great aunt's knuckle bones (or yarrow stalks or coins) is specifically relevant in any divine way is moot. The simple fact of focusing on a *single* bit of wisdom and reflecting on it's relevance to the situation at hand seems to be very useful. Not a lot unlike listening to your preacher, priest, imam or other holy man relate a parable from The Book and meditating (praying) with those ideas in mind. *QM and Emergence* It is the divide between materialism and non (I think) that keeps me fascinated. I'm a materialist for macroscopic and near-equilibrium phenomena, but as we edge into the territory of quantum mechanics and emergent properties, I feel I have already let go of hard materialism. I feel a bit hypocritical to make exceptions for those specific paradigms whilst poo-poo (woo woo) ing everything else. I assume that most (nearly) all here accept that QM and Complexity both offer some mysteries to hard materialism but do not immediately take it to full-up mysticism right away? - Steve On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Barry MacKichan barry.mackic...@mackichan.com mailto:barry.mackic...@mackichan.com wrote: I've heard it is very effective, but only for a time until the patient discovers it is a placebo. Call it the Lincoln effect (You can fool all of ). --Barry On Apr 4, 2013, at 11:14 AM, Ron Newman ron.new...@gmail.com mailto:ron.new...@gmail.com wrote: There's no money in it (actually, there's a lot of money in it) but the effects - 30% efficacy I heard once - are impressive, without side effects. FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com -- Ron Newman, Founder MyIdeatree.com http://www.Ideatree.us The World Happiness Meter http://worldhappinessmeter.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending
Well shoot, as long as we're talking about irrational belief sets, how about if we throw chemtrails into the mix. There is a not insignificant segment of the US population who fervently believe that they are poisoning us, on purpose. But only on those days that the jets leave con ... er ... chemtrails. No proof necessary, just *look* at those chemtrails. --Doug On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Ron Newman ron.new...@gmail.com wrote: But you're missing the point.: *something* is working for them if they believe it is, and is not for you or anyone who doesn't believe it is. The question is how does it work? No, that's not good enough, because it too easily leads back to premature assumptions. The question is: how can placebo be improved. Not set aside but improved. On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:47 AM, glen g...@ropella.name wrote: Barry MacKichan wrote at 04/04/2013 10:29 AM: I've heard it is very effective, but only for a time until the patient discovers it is a placebo. Call it the Lincoln effect (You can fool all of ….). A friend of mine announced that she's now getting acupuncture for her chronic back and neck pain. There's a zealot in our local CfI (http://www.centerforinquiry.net/) group who continuously and loudly shouts about acupuncture being as quackish as homeopathy. (Seriously... is there anything as quackish as homeopathy?) The tiny amount of time I've spent looking into acupuncture indicates that it's mostly nonsense with some slight possibility of truth in regard to certain _pressure_ points and nerve clusters. But nothing that an evidence-based masseuse couldn't achieve more effectively. But I kept my mouth shut and let her talk about how well it's worked so far. My dad also used acupuncture for a racquetball associated injury. He claimed it worked very well... [ahem] ... even better than his chiropractor. I didn't want to introduce any doubt that might interfere with her placebo effect. Interestingly, I was trying to apply the Golden Rule in a post-hoc analysis of my lack of action. Would I want someone to burst my placebo effect bubble? If so, when? Immediately? Or perhaps after some window of time as the placebo effect decays and it bumps up against the hard biophysical/physiological limits? -- == glen e. p. ropella I can't get no peace until I get into motion FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com -- Ron Newman, Founder MyIdeatree.com http://www.Ideatree.us The World Happiness Meter http://worldhappinessmeter.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com -- *Doug Roberts d...@parrot-farm.net* *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins * http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins 505-455-7333 - Office 505-672-8213 - Mobile* FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending
Ron Newman wrote at 04/04/2013 10:57 AM: But you're missing the point.: *something* is working for them if they believe it is, and is not for you or anyone who doesn't believe it is. The question is how does it work? No, that's not good enough, because it too easily leads back to premature assumptions. The question is: how can placebo be improved. Not set aside but improved. No, I'm not missing that point at all. The primary clinical problems are if, when, and how to _intervene_. This is the first question you should be asking. Even in a scientific context, the first question is about how to manipulate the system so that cause and effect can be teased out of the noise. The point is if, when, and how to manipulate. The question of improvement only comes after addressing the question of manipulation. -- == glen e. p. ropella I'm a king ?? FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Woo
Steve Smith wrote at 04/04/2013 11:04 AM: They have something to talk about with like minded people and even professionals who will assure them that their symptoms are as real as the cures being offered. This seems spot on to me. In a similar vein, I know so many people who express their desire to take a class on X. My techie friends are always saying, things like that, with some variation like buy a book on X. Some of them even teach classes ... on photoshop, or micro$oft office, etc. I always ask them why they feel the need to take a class? Just jump in and start doing it. Why not just buy a guitar and start banging on it? Why do you feel the need to take a class? They always answer with weird (to me) justificationism and excuses. I'm not disciplined enough. I wouldn't know where to start. Etc. I don't have the energy. But my speculation is that there's a high correlation between the people who feel they need to take a class and the people who respond well to people in white jackets with name tags. -- == glen e. p. ropella Throw the switches, prime the charge, FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending
Actually, I think there is active scientific research trying to understand the placebo effect, because the effect and its benefits have been well documented. As Feynman points out, better understanding could lead to improved placebo effect. Bruce On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Ron Newman ron.new...@gmail.com wrote: If the placebo is double blind I've heard the percentage shoots up. But the fact remains that a mere thought, or belief, is affecting something. If science were untainted that would be the basis for massive investigation. FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending
I've restricted my participation in this discussion because I started a new schedule of medications yesterday and I wasn't sure whence my enthusiasm came. That's sort of a transcebo effect, everything I take appears to have subtle side effects, but appearances can be deceiving, and you often see what you look for. -- rec -- FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending
I get your point, Doug. I had to suppress the desire to roll my eyes when once I met someone who looked up at the sky and spoke confidently of chemtrails. I'm reminded of something Joseph Campbell said - who looked as deeply into the beliefs of human beings across history as anyone. He said that the closer you get to something of distilled wisdom, the more crazies there are standing around. I try to keep that in mind when I'm tempted to throw something out while teasing the signal from the noise. I once knew an anesthesiologist who patented a device and started a company around it. The thing located nerves accurately for surgeons. As an anecdotal aside, he told me that the places where nerves crossed each other tended to correlate with acupuncture points. One possibility. Regarding placebo, if we were talking about solar power, 30% efficiency would be a great starting point. Ron -- Ron Newman, Founder MyIdeatree.com http://www.ideatree.us/ On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 12:13 PM, Douglas Roberts d...@parrot-farm.netwrote: Well shoot, as long as we're talking about irrational belief sets, how about if we throw chemtrails into the mix. There is a not insignificant segment of the US population who fervently believe that they are poisoning us, on purpose. But only on those days that the jets leave con ... er ... chemtrails. No proof necessary, just *look* at those chemtrails. --Doug FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Woo
Glen - I always ask them why they feel the need to take a class? Just jump in and start doing it. Why not just buy a guitar and start banging on it? Why do you feel the need to take a class? They always answer with weird (to me) justificationism and excuses. I'm not disciplined enough. I wouldn't know where to start. Etc. I don't have the energy. But my speculation is that there's a high correlation between the people who feel they need to take a class and the people who respond well to people in white jackets with name tags. I share your speculation about this correlation and could probably broaden it. I also suspect we can get Doug (and others) to dogpile on to this with us. Of course, having lots of people who agree with me is not exactly evidence of any kind of objective accuracy. Anecdotally, it looks to me as if there is a negative correlation between popularity and reality. While we are tribe animals technically, our time evolving (at least socially) amongst pack animals (wolves cum dogs) and herd animals (migrating with the caribou, bison, etc.) we adopted some pretty strong habits and assumptions about the wisdom of crowds. I think there *is* something to this, but it also seems to be thoughtlessly overused. There is also a variant called we should write a grant for that!. I have written (and received grants) but I also know that the best stuff often gets done on my own time/nickel/motivation. Having someone else pay me to pursue my curiosity or convictions is a very convenient thing, but if I restricted myself to only doing things that I could buy a book, take a class, or get a grant for, my life would be significantly impoverished. Nevertheless, I still collect books, occasionally take classes and seek funding for my pet projects. - Steve FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending
Roger Critchlow wrote at 04/04/2013 11:37 AM: you often see what you look for. I'll raise you and assert that you _always_ see what you look for ... which takes me back to Kauffman's paper and his failure to cite Robert Rosen's treatment of anticipatory systems (aka final cause). Our expectations are a kind of forcing structure or, at least, a box of constraints upon our dynamics. The fans of woo I _like_ tend to have big boxes within which they can wiggle a lot. They do not build prisons from their expectations. Many hard core materialists (e.g. the New Atheists) and many consipiracy nuts have such tightly wound expectations, such convictions, that they are no longer open enough to wiggle. -- == glen e. p. ropella I have gazed beyond today FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
[FRIAM] Woo
I think the distinction is about *confirmation bias*? If you assume that placebo effects are in some way *bad* and that we need to seek ways to predict their effect waning or seek to determine when and how to burst the placebo bubble most gently then that is what we will find... examples of where placebo effects diminish and local minima where bursting will do least harm. We won't find the cases where placebo is sufficient for relief/recovery nor will we find ways to *maximize* it's effects. Of course, the opposite is true. If we seek *only* to maximize placebo effects, we can easily fall into the trap of believing that placebo is always a good thing, etc. and overlook the larger context where it might not always be so (allowing gangrene to set in while rinsing the wound with holy water). There is no lack of work having been done clinically and scientifically around the placebo effect, though I'm sure it's application and refinement in more esoteric circumstances has no limit. I think the woo question is significantly about *human bias* in the scientific community. We *know* there is bias in the woo community but just repeatedly pointing that out is not the same as looking in a mirror for where the scientific community has conspired with itself to fashion and wear blinders. - Steve Ron Newman wrote at 04/04/2013 10:57 AM: But you're missing the point.: *something* is working for them if they believe it is, and is not for you or anyone who doesn't believe it is. The question is how does it work? No, that's not good enough, because it too easily leads back to premature assumptions. The question is: how can placebo be improved. Not set aside but improved. No, I'm not missing that point at all. The primary clinical problems are if, when, and how to _intervene_. This is the first question you should be asking. Even in a scientific context, the first question is about how to manipulate the system so that cause and effect can be teased out of the noise. The point is if, when, and how to manipulate. The question of improvement only comes after addressing the question of manipulation. FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending
There have also been scientific studies involving something called that nocebo effect, in which expectations of harm are self-fulfilling. I apologize that I can't at the moment find references to the following two examples. People who felt themselves sensitive or insensitive to cell phone radiation were put in a functional MRI machine with a cell phone near the head that could be turned on or off. The insensitives when told the phone was turned on showed no change in brain function, but the sensitives showed activity in the brain locations associated with real pain. Although in fact the cell phone was never turned on, the sensitives apparently experienced real pain. The pain is real, but not caused by cell phone radiation -- nocebo. An experiment was performed on the efficacy of prayer for those in need. People were recruited to pray for hospital patients, with various conditions of the study. The only effect that was found was that if patients were told that they were being prayed for, those patients did worse, presumably because they thought that if people were going to the trouble of praying for them, they must be in worse shape than they had thought. Again, nocebo. Bruce FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Woo
Interesting. I suppose I'm guilty of dysrhetorica, here. My intention in describing my friend who is now receiving acupuncture was to orient the conversation towards _action_ and away from thoughts about Truth. I tend to try telling stories of my actual experience with actual people and events as a way of orienting the conversation away from ideology toward methodology. To me, this is in the same vein as Bruce's Feynman quote. Feynman suggests several experiments that might be performed, particular ways to intervene in the miracles to see if/whether their outcome can be manipulated. But my rhetoric bit me in the @ss. By using biased phrases like burst my placebo effect bubble, I defeated my own rhetorical purpose. What I should have said would be more like: Should I have intervened in my friend's therapy? If so, when? If so, how? For example, from my own tiny research, I also read what Ron's friend claimed, that acupuncture points are correlated with some neuronal structures. If the answer to when to intervene is immediately, then I should have immediately told my friend a) about my skepticism and b) of this confirmatory correlation between acupuncture points and neuronal maps. If the beneficial effect is psychosomatic, then telling her about the correlation would give her more power (even if insignificant) to improve whatever mechanism she's already using. And expressing my skepticism might give her reason to do more research on her own. It might also provide a thicker skin for future skeptics who may be less friendly than me. On the other hand, she may choose to hear my words in such a way as to limit or eliminate the beneficial effect. I don't really care whether acupuncture is _truly_ false, truly True, or anywhere in between. What I want to know is what I can _do_ to make me (and my friends) more likely to achieve my (their) objectives. I know intellectually, however, that I appreciate it when my friends provide alternatives to various modules in my world view. So, it's difficult and interesting to apply the Golden Rule to my actions with my friend. Did I keep my mouth shut because I somehow sensed she would be detrimentally affected by any action I might have taken? Or is it perhaps that even though I _think_ I like for my friends to treat my own views with skepticism, perhaps I really do _not_. I.e. I was obeying the Golden Rule and treating her as I (viscerally, not intellectually) want to be treated? Steve Smith wrote at 04/04/2013 11:49 AM: I think the distinction is about *confirmation bias*? If you assume that placebo effects are in some way *bad* and that we need to seek ways to predict their effect waning or seek to determine when and how to burst the placebo bubble most gently then that is what we will find... examples of where placebo effects diminish and local minima where bursting will do least harm. We won't find the cases where placebo is sufficient for relief/recovery nor will we find ways to *maximize* it's effects. Of course, the opposite is true. If we seek *only* to maximize placebo effects, we can easily fall into the trap of believing that placebo is always a good thing, etc. and overlook the larger context where it might not always be so (allowing gangrene to set in while rinsing the wound with holy water). There is no lack of work having been done clinically and scientifically around the placebo effect, though I'm sure it's application and refinement in more esoteric circumstances has no limit. I think the woo question is significantly about *human bias* in the scientific community. We *know* there is bias in the woo community but just repeatedly pointing that out is not the same as looking in a mirror for where the scientific community has conspired with itself to fashion and wear blinders. -- == glen e. p. ropella Robot Lords of Tokyo, SMILE TASTE KITTENS! FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] John Resig - Asm.js: The JavaScript Compile Target
It says asm.js only uses numbers. There are no strings or objects. Is that true? I think that might be hard to use. On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Barry MacKichan barry.mackic...@mackichan.com wrote: I read the first half of their tutorial last night. I looks that they have attacked one of the weak points of C++ in a componentized world -- making sure that pointers don't outlive the object they are pointing to, even when passed to unknown (at compile time) functions and marshaled to other processes. The smart pointers that Mozilla uses help, but there is no static checking, and crashes and memory leaks are a big problem in development. It will be interesting when Rust moves out into the wider world, if it does. --Barry On Apr 3, 2013, at 4:18 PM, mar...@snoutfarm.com wrote: Well, the reason I mentioned it wasn't it was yet another Let's fix C++ by harvesting ideas from the computer science literature. effort, e.g. D, but that it 1) is from Mozilla (Eich) and aims to be a platform for a next generation browser, and even one that runs on mobile devices, and 2) it isn't JavaScript. It's not just about performance, it's about safety and correctness. Marcus myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft® Windows® and Linux web and application hosting - http://link.myhosting.com/myhosting FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending
All this contrasery over the sigh. I think sigh and sighing is a good thing it can lead to interesting conversations. :P On 4/4/13, Ron Newman ron.new...@gmail.com wrote: I get your point, Doug. I had to suppress the desire to roll my eyes when once I met someone who looked up at the sky and spoke confidently of chemtrails. I'm reminded of something Joseph Campbell said - who looked as deeply into the beliefs of human beings across history as anyone. He said that the closer you get to something of distilled wisdom, the more crazies there are standing around. I try to keep that in mind when I'm tempted to throw something out while teasing the signal from the noise. I once knew an anesthesiologist who patented a device and started a company around it. The thing located nerves accurately for surgeons. As an anecdotal aside, he told me that the places where nerves crossed each other tended to correlate with acupuncture points. One possibility. Regarding placebo, if we were talking about solar power, 30% efficiency would be a great starting point. Ron -- Ron Newman, Founder MyIdeatree.com http://www.ideatree.us/ On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 12:13 PM, Douglas Roberts d...@parrot-farm.netwrote: Well shoot, as long as we're talking about irrational belief sets, how about if we throw chemtrails into the mix. There is a not insignificant segment of the US population who fervently believe that they are poisoning us, on purpose. But only on those days that the jets leave con ... er ... chemtrails. No proof necessary, just *look* at those chemtrails. --Doug FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending
Ron - I get your point, Doug. I had to suppress the desire to roll my eyes when once I met someone who looked up at the sky and spoke confidently of chemtrails. I generally feel the same way, and this is usually abutted with something about crop circles and maybe a reference to the grassy knoll. I *did* get caught off guard recently when reading about technological remedies to global warming via releasing sulfur compounds into the upper atmosphere... someone suggested that the (govt, corp, etc.) was *already* doing it by introducing said chemistry into jet fuel. I was briefly a true believer. It still seems like too much to put past everyone (jet fuel providers, mechanics, EPA, etc.) but for at least a second I was ready to believe that large scale atmospheric manipulation was already underway. I think it is the confidence coming from someone who normally (usually) has no interest in anything technical or analytical claiming they know for a fact something that at best they have on good authority. - Steve FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending
Doug, Somebody laid the chemtrails thing on me the other day . an otherwise perfectly sensible neighbor . and I was left standing in the street with my jaw hanging open. What do you say when somebody your sort of like, touches you on the upper arm, points skyward and says, Call me nuts, but .. I guess, You're nuts! N From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 12:14 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending Well shoot, as long as we're talking about irrational belief sets, how about if we throw chemtrails into the mix. There is a not insignificant segment of the US population who fervently believe that they are poisoning us, on purpose. But only on those days that the jets leave con ... er ... chemtrails. No proof necessary, just *look* at those chemtrails. --Doug On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Ron Newman ron.new...@gmail.com wrote: But you're missing the point.: *something* is working for them if they believe it is, and is not for you or anyone who doesn't believe it is. The question is how does it work? No, that's not good enough, because it too easily leads back to premature assumptions. The question is: how can placebo be improved. Not set aside but improved. On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:47 AM, glen g...@ropella.name wrote: Barry MacKichan wrote at 04/04/2013 10:29 AM: I've heard it is very effective, but only for a time until the patient discovers it is a placebo. Call it the Lincoln effect (You can fool all of ..). A friend of mine announced that she's now getting acupuncture for her chronic back and neck pain. There's a zealot in our local CfI (http://www.centerforinquiry.net/) group who continuously and loudly shouts about acupuncture being as quackish as homeopathy. (Seriously... is there anything as quackish as homeopathy?) The tiny amount of time I've spent looking into acupuncture indicates that it's mostly nonsense with some slight possibility of truth in regard to certain _pressure_ points and nerve clusters. But nothing that an evidence-based masseuse couldn't achieve more effectively. But I kept my mouth shut and let her talk about how well it's worked so far. My dad also used acupuncture for a racquetball associated injury. He claimed it worked very well... [ahem] ... even better than his chiropractor. I didn't want to introduce any doubt that might interfere with her placebo effect. Interestingly, I was trying to apply the Golden Rule in a post-hoc analysis of my lack of action. Would I want someone to burst my placebo effect bubble? If so, when? Immediately? Or perhaps after some window of time as the placebo effect decays and it bumps up against the hard biophysical/physiological limits? -- == glen e. p. ropella I can't get no peace until I get into motion FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com -- Ron Newman, Founder MyIdeatree.com http://www.Ideatree.us The World Happiness Meter http://worldhappinessmeter.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com -- Doug Roberts d...@parrot-farm.net http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins 505-455-7333 - Office 505-672-8213 - Mobile FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending
There are a surprising number of them on facebook, Nick. To nobody's great surprise, I guess. --Doug On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Nicholas Thompson nickthomp...@earthlink.net wrote: Doug, ** ** Somebody laid the chemtrails thing on me the other day … an otherwise perfectly sensible neighbor … and I was left standing in the street with my jaw hanging open. What do you say when somebody your sort of like, touches you on the upper arm, points skyward and says, “Call me nuts, but ….” ** ** I guess, “You’re nuts!” ** ** N *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas Roberts *Sent:* Thursday, April 04, 2013 12:14 PM *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending ** ** Well shoot, as long as we're talking about irrational belief sets, how about if we throw chemtrails into the mix. There is a not insignificant segment of the US population who fervently believe that they are poisoning us, on purpose. But only on those days that the jets leave con ... er ... chemtrails. No proof necessary, just *look* at those chemtrails. ** ** --Doug On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Ron Newman ron.new...@gmail.com wrote:* *** But you're missing the point.: *something* is working for them if they believe it is, and is not for you or anyone who doesn't believe it is. The question is how does it work? No, that's not good enough, because it too easily leads back to premature assumptions. The question is: how can placebo be improved. Not set aside but improved. ** ** On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:47 AM, glen g...@ropella.name wrote: Barry MacKichan wrote at 04/04/2013 10:29 AM: I've heard it is very effective, but only for a time until the patient discovers it is a placebo. Call it the Lincoln effect (You can fool all of ….). A friend of mine announced that she's now getting acupuncture for her chronic back and neck pain. There's a zealot in our local CfI (http://www.centerforinquiry.net/) group who continuously and loudly shouts about acupuncture being as quackish as homeopathy. (Seriously... is there anything as quackish as homeopathy?) The tiny amount of time I've spent looking into acupuncture indicates that it's mostly nonsense with some slight possibility of truth in regard to certain _pressure_ points and nerve clusters. But nothing that an evidence-based masseuse couldn't achieve more effectively. But I kept my mouth shut and let her talk about how well it's worked so far. My dad also used acupuncture for a racquetball associated injury. He claimed it worked very well... [ahem] ... even better than his chiropractor. I didn't want to introduce any doubt that might interfere with her placebo effect. Interestingly, I was trying to apply the Golden Rule in a post-hoc analysis of my lack of action. Would I want someone to burst my placebo effect bubble? If so, when? Immediately? Or perhaps after some window of time as the placebo effect decays and it bumps up against the hard biophysical/physiological limits? -- == glen e. p. ropella I can't get no peace until I get into motion FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ** ** -- Ron Newman, Founder MyIdeatree.com http://www.Ideatree.us The World Happiness Meter http://worldhappinessmeter.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ** ** -- *Doug Roberts d...@parrot-farm.net* *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins * 505-455-7333 - Office 505-672-8213 - Mobile* FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com -- *Doug Roberts d...@parrot-farm.net* *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins * http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins 505-455-7333 - Office 505-672-8213 - Mobile* FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending
Yes but ... I didn't believe Watergate the first few times I heard about it, either. You aren't telling me that a president that was going to win an election in a walk actually sent Burglars into the Democratic Headquarters? I just could not believe that they could be so stupid. I fell for Colin Powell's thing at the UN; my wife didn't buy it for a moment. I have to say, that in most contexts, I believe in gullibility. I think a little bit of gullibility is the best program for getting on in life. But I have been known to carry it too far. Nick From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 3:39 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending There are a surprising number of them on facebook, Nick. To nobody's great surprise, I guess. --Doug On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Nicholas Thompson nickthomp...@earthlink.net wrote: Doug, Somebody laid the chemtrails thing on me the other day . an otherwise perfectly sensible neighbor . and I was left standing in the street with my jaw hanging open. What do you say when somebody your sort of like, touches you on the upper arm, points skyward and says, Call me nuts, but .. I guess, You're nuts! N From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 12:14 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending Well shoot, as long as we're talking about irrational belief sets, how about if we throw chemtrails into the mix. There is a not insignificant segment of the US population who fervently believe that they are poisoning us, on purpose. But only on those days that the jets leave con ... er ... chemtrails. No proof necessary, just *look* at those chemtrails. --Doug On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Ron Newman ron.new...@gmail.com wrote: But you're missing the point.: *something* is working for them if they believe it is, and is not for you or anyone who doesn't believe it is. The question is how does it work? No, that's not good enough, because it too easily leads back to premature assumptions. The question is: how can placebo be improved. Not set aside but improved. On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:47 AM, glen g...@ropella.name wrote: Barry MacKichan wrote at 04/04/2013 10:29 AM: I've heard it is very effective, but only for a time until the patient discovers it is a placebo. Call it the Lincoln effect (You can fool all of ..). A friend of mine announced that she's now getting acupuncture for her chronic back and neck pain. There's a zealot in our local CfI (http://www.centerforinquiry.net/) group who continuously and loudly shouts about acupuncture being as quackish as homeopathy. (Seriously... is there anything as quackish as homeopathy?) The tiny amount of time I've spent looking into acupuncture indicates that it's mostly nonsense with some slight possibility of truth in regard to certain _pressure_ points and nerve clusters. But nothing that an evidence-based masseuse couldn't achieve more effectively. But I kept my mouth shut and let her talk about how well it's worked so far. My dad also used acupuncture for a racquetball associated injury. He claimed it worked very well... [ahem] ... even better than his chiropractor. I didn't want to introduce any doubt that might interfere with her placebo effect. Interestingly, I was trying to apply the Golden Rule in a post-hoc analysis of my lack of action. Would I want someone to burst my placebo effect bubble? If so, when? Immediately? Or perhaps after some window of time as the placebo effect decays and it bumps up against the hard biophysical/physiological limits? -- == glen e. p. ropella I can't get no peace until I get into motion FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com -- Ron Newman, Founder MyIdeatree.com http://www.Ideatree.us The World Happiness Meter http://worldhappinessmeter.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com -- Doug Roberts d...@parrot-farm.net http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins 505-455-7333 - Office 505-672-8213 - Mobile FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com -- Doug
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending
Nick - There are two kinds of people in the world, those who take Gullibility to excess and those who take Skepticism to excess. I happen to be of the third kind, one who tends to take *both* to excess... I'm not sure if that helps me get on the world, but I'm not sure I have a choice anymore than the hardline Gulls or hardline Skepts do here. In deference to Glen's twitch, I guess I twitch both ways. Just don't tell me you look it up every time someone tells you Gullible isn't in the dictionary! - Steve Yes but . I didn't believe Watergate the first few times I heard about it, either. You aren't telling me that a president that was going to win an election in a walk actually sent Burglars into the Democratic Headquarters? I just could not believe that they could be so stupid. I fell for Colin Powell's thing at the UN; my wife didn't buy it for a moment. I have to say, that in most contexts, I believe in gullibility. I think a little bit of gullibility is the best program for getting on in life. But I have been known to carry it too far. Nick *From:*Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas Roberts *Sent:* Thursday, April 04, 2013 3:39 PM *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending There are a surprising number of them on facebook, Nick. To nobody's great surprise, I guess. --Doug On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Nicholas Thompson nickthomp...@earthlink.net mailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net wrote: Doug, Somebody laid the chemtrails thing on me the other day ... an otherwise perfectly sensible neighbor ... and I was left standing in the street with my jaw hanging open. What do you say when somebody your sort of like, touches you on the upper arm, points skyward and says, Call me nuts, but I guess, You're nuts! N *From:*Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas Roberts *Sent:* Thursday, April 04, 2013 12:14 PM *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending Well shoot, as long as we're talking about irrational belief sets, how about if we throw chemtrails into the mix. There is a not insignificant segment of the US population who fervently believe that they are poisoning us, on purpose. But only on those days that the jets leave con ... er ... chemtrails. No proof necessary, just *look* at those chemtrails. --Doug On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Ron Newman ron.new...@gmail.com mailto:ron.new...@gmail.com wrote: But you're missing the point.: *something* is working for them if they believe it is, and is not for you or anyone who doesn't believe it is. The question is how does it work? No, that's not good enough, because it too easily leads back to premature assumptions. The question is: how can placebo be improved. Not set aside but improved. On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:47 AM, glen g...@ropella.name mailto:g...@ropella.name wrote: Barry MacKichan wrote at 04/04/2013 10:29 AM: I've heard it is very effective, but only for a time until the patient discovers it is a placebo. Call it the Lincoln effect (You can fool all of ). A friend of mine announced that she's now getting acupuncture for her chronic back and neck pain. There's a zealot in our local CfI (http://www.centerforinquiry.net/) group who continuously and loudly shouts about acupuncture being as quackish as homeopathy. (Seriously... is there anything as quackish as homeopathy?) The tiny amount of time I've spent looking into acupuncture indicates that it's mostly nonsense with some slight possibility of truth in regard to certain _pressure_ points and nerve clusters. But nothing that an evidence-based masseuse couldn't achieve more effectively. But I kept my mouth shut and let her talk about how well it's worked so far. My dad also used acupuncture for a racquetball associated injury. He claimed it worked very well... [ahem] ... even better than his chiropractor. I didn't want to introduce any doubt that might interfere with her placebo effect. Interestingly, I was trying to apply the Golden Rule in a post-hoc analysis of my lack of action. Would I want someone to burst my placebo effect bubble? If so, when? Immediately? Or perhaps after some window of time as the placebo effect decays and it bumps up against the hard biophysical/physiological limits? -- == glen e. p. ropella I can't get no peace until I get into motion FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com -- Ron Newman, Founder MyIdeatree.com http://www.Ideatree.us The World Happiness Meter
[FRIAM] Silicon Valley of South America
Maybe just a pipe dream at this point, but maybe I can have my cake and eat it too: http://www.cuencahighlife.com/post/2013/03/31/Ecuadore28099s-ambitious-e28098City-of-Knowledgee28099-project-aims-at-attracting-the-worlde28099s-top-talent.aspx Since I live a couple of hours from there, I'll be following this closely. FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] John Resig - Asm.js: The JavaScript Compile Target
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:00 PM, cody dooderson d00d3r...@gmail.com wrote: It says asm.js only uses numbers. There are no strings or objects. Is that true? I think that might be hard to use. Yup. At this point they would have you push structs into the TypedArrays the same way webgl does, when you interleave the various attributes within the same attribute array. And I don't know if it has prototype functions. I'm pretty sure not closures. So its sorta dead in the water for now, but their plans do include increased functionality. -- Owen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending
I personally find it disappointing that so many people are willing to adopt a belief set with no evidence, based solely on what someone said was The Truth. On a related note, now would appear to be an excellent time to start a church, impose mandatory weekly attendance upon the faithful, and charge $20 a head at the door each week. --Doug On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Nicholas Thompson nickthomp...@earthlink.net wrote: Yes but ….. ** ** I didn’t believe Watergate the first few times I heard about it, either. “You aren’t telling me that a president that was going to win an election in a walk actually sent Burglars into the Democratic Headquarters?” I just could not believe that they could be so stupid. I fell for Colin Powell’s thing at the UN; my wife didn’t buy it for a moment. I have to say, that in most contexts, I believe in gullibility. I think a little bit of gullibility is the best program for getting on in life. But I have been known to carry it too far. ** ** Nick ** ** *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas Roberts *Sent:* Thursday, April 04, 2013 3:39 PM *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending ** ** There are a surprising number of them on facebook, Nick. To nobody's great surprise, I guess. ** ** --Doug On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Nicholas Thompson nickthomp...@earthlink.net wrote: Doug, Somebody laid the chemtrails thing on me the other day … an otherwise perfectly sensible neighbor … and I was left standing in the street with my jaw hanging open. What do you say when somebody your sort of like, touches you on the upper arm, points skyward and says, “Call me nuts, but ….” I guess, “You’re nuts!” N *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas Roberts *Sent:* Thursday, April 04, 2013 12:14 PM *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending Well shoot, as long as we're talking about irrational belief sets, how about if we throw chemtrails into the mix. There is a not insignificant segment of the US population who fervently believe that they are poisoning us, on purpose. But only on those days that the jets leave con ... er ... chemtrails. No proof necessary, just *look* at those chemtrails. --Doug On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Ron Newman ron.new...@gmail.com wrote:* *** But you're missing the point.: *something* is working for them if they believe it is, and is not for you or anyone who doesn't believe it is. The question is how does it work? No, that's not good enough, because it too easily leads back to premature assumptions. The question is: how can placebo be improved. Not set aside but improved. On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:47 AM, glen g...@ropella.name wrote: Barry MacKichan wrote at 04/04/2013 10:29 AM: I've heard it is very effective, but only for a time until the patient discovers it is a placebo. Call it the Lincoln effect (You can fool all of ….). A friend of mine announced that she's now getting acupuncture for her chronic back and neck pain. There's a zealot in our local CfI (http://www.centerforinquiry.net/) group who continuously and loudly shouts about acupuncture being as quackish as homeopathy. (Seriously... is there anything as quackish as homeopathy?) The tiny amount of time I've spent looking into acupuncture indicates that it's mostly nonsense with some slight possibility of truth in regard to certain _pressure_ points and nerve clusters. But nothing that an evidence-based masseuse couldn't achieve more effectively. But I kept my mouth shut and let her talk about how well it's worked so far. My dad also used acupuncture for a racquetball associated injury. He claimed it worked very well... [ahem] ... even better than his chiropractor. I didn't want to introduce any doubt that might interfere with her placebo effect. Interestingly, I was trying to apply the Golden Rule in a post-hoc analysis of my lack of action. Would I want someone to burst my placebo effect bubble? If so, when? Immediately? Or perhaps after some window of time as the placebo effect decays and it bumps up against the hard biophysical/physiological limits? -- == glen e. p. ropella I can't get no peace until I get into motion FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com -- Ron Newman, Founder MyIdeatree.com
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending
Douglas Roberts wrote at 04/04/2013 04:21 PM: I personally find it disappointing that so many people are willing to adopt a belief set with no evidence, based solely on what someone said was The Truth. Yeah, but the real problem is equivocation around the word evidence. -- == glen e. p. ropella It's already in their eyes. FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending
Well, I suppose. I was using evidence in the scientific sense, rather than the political one, or the one which so many idiots prefer to use which could loosely defined as I choose to believe, so there is plenty of evidence to support my belief. --Doug On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 5:37 PM, glen g...@ropella.name wrote: Douglas Roberts wrote at 04/04/2013 04:21 PM: I personally find it disappointing that so many people are willing to adopt a belief set with no evidence, based solely on what someone said was The Truth. Yeah, but the real problem is equivocation around the word evidence. -- == glen e. p. ropella It's already in their eyes. FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com -- *Doug Roberts d...@parrot-farm.net* *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins * http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins 505-455-7333 - Office 505-672-8213 - Mobile* FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending
Doug - On a related note, now would appear to be an excellent time to start a church, impose mandatory weekly attendance upon the faithful, and charge $20 a head at the door each week. Clearly you haven't been to FRIAM (in person) lately... you are in arrears on your dues! We'll take it out of the royalties on your eBook. Tangenting again... my parents were both of Applachian stock where those who had Christ used their bibles to access him without benefit of a church or preacher. My mother liked to go to church Christmas and Easter and I think the last (and only?) time my father came with her, when the collection plate came by, he reached in, then pulled his hand back empty and said no thank you, I think I have enough and passed it on. - Steve --Doug On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Nicholas Thompson nickthomp...@earthlink.net mailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net wrote: Yes but . I didn't believe Watergate the first few times I heard about it, either. You aren't telling me that a president that was going to win an election in a walk actually sent Burglars into the Democratic Headquarters? I just could not believe that they could be so stupid. I fell for Colin Powell's thing at the UN; my wife didn't buy it for a moment. I have to say, that in most contexts, I believe in gullibility. I think a little bit of gullibility is the best program for getting on in life. But I have been known to carry it too far. Nick *From:*Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas Roberts *Sent:* Thursday, April 04, 2013 3:39 PM *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending There are a surprising number of them on facebook, Nick. To nobody's great surprise, I guess. --Doug On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Nicholas Thompson nickthomp...@earthlink.net mailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net wrote: Doug, Somebody laid the chemtrails thing on me the other day ... an otherwise perfectly sensible neighbor ... and I was left standing in the street with my jaw hanging open. What do you say when somebody your sort of like, touches you on the upper arm, points skyward and says, Call me nuts, but I guess, You're nuts! N *From:*Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas Roberts *Sent:* Thursday, April 04, 2013 12:14 PM *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending Well shoot, as long as we're talking about irrational belief sets, how about if we throw chemtrails into the mix. There is a not insignificant segment of the US population who fervently believe that they are poisoning us, on purpose. But only on those days that the jets leave con ... er ... chemtrails. No proof necessary, just *look* at those chemtrails. --Doug On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Ron Newman ron.new...@gmail.com mailto:ron.new...@gmail.com wrote: But you're missing the point.: *something* is working for them if they believe it is, and is not for you or anyone who doesn't believe it is. The question is how does it work? No, that's not good enough, because it too easily leads back to premature assumptions. The question is: how can placebo be improved. Not set aside but improved. On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:47 AM, glen g...@ropella.name mailto:g...@ropella.name wrote: Barry MacKichan wrote at 04/04/2013 10:29 AM: I've heard it is very effective, but only for a time until the patient discovers it is a placebo. Call it the Lincoln effect (You can fool all of ). A friend of mine announced that she's now getting acupuncture for her chronic back and neck pain. There's a zealot in our local CfI (http://www.centerforinquiry.net/) group who continuously and loudly shouts about acupuncture being as quackish as homeopathy. (Seriously... is there anything as quackish as homeopathy?) The tiny amount of time I've spent looking into acupuncture indicates that it's mostly nonsense with some slight possibility of truth in regard to certain _pressure_ points and nerve clusters. But nothing that an evidence-based masseuse couldn't achieve more effectively. But I kept my mouth shut and let her talk about how well it's worked so far. My dad also used acupuncture for a racquetball associated injury. He claimed it worked very well... [ahem] ... even better than his chiropractor. I didn't want to introduce any doubt that might interfere with her placebo effect. Interestingly, I was
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending
I'm guessing I would have liked your dad, Steve. --Doug On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 5:45 PM, Steve Smith sasm...@swcp.com wrote: Doug - On a related note, now would appear to be an excellent time to start a church, impose mandatory weekly attendance upon the faithful, and charge $20 a head at the door each week. Clearly you haven't been to FRIAM (in person) lately... you are in arrears on your dues! We'll take it out of the royalties on your eBook. Tangenting again... my parents were both of Applachian stock where those who had Christ used their bibles to access him without benefit of a church or preacher. My mother liked to go to church Christmas and Easter and I think the last (and only?) time my father came with her, when the collection plate came by, he reached in, then pulled his hand back empty and said no thank you, I think I have enough and passed it on. - Steve --Doug On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Nicholas Thompson nickthomp...@earthlink.net wrote: Yes but ….. I didn’t believe Watergate the first few times I heard about it, either. “You aren’t telling me that a president that was going to win an election in a walk actually sent Burglars into the Democratic Headquarters?” I just could not believe that they could be so stupid. I fell for Colin Powell’s thing at the UN; my wife didn’t buy it for a moment. I have to say, that in most contexts, I believe in gullibility. I think a little bit of gullibility is the best program for getting on in life. But I have been known to carry it too far. Nick *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas Roberts *Sent:* Thursday, April 04, 2013 3:39 PM *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending There are a surprising number of them on facebook, Nick. To nobody's great surprise, I guess. --Doug On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Nicholas Thompson nickthomp...@earthlink.net wrote: Doug, Somebody laid the chemtrails thing on me the other day … an otherwise perfectly sensible neighbor … and I was left standing in the street with my jaw hanging open. What do you say when somebody your sort of like, touches you on the upper arm, points skyward and says, “Call me nuts, but ….” I guess, “You’re nuts!” N *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas Roberts *Sent:* Thursday, April 04, 2013 12:14 PM *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending Well shoot, as long as we're talking about irrational belief sets, how about if we throw chemtrails into the mix. There is a not insignificant segment of the US population who fervently believe that they are poisoning us, on purpose. But only on those days that the jets leave con ... er ... chemtrails. No proof necessary, just *look* at those chemtrails. --Doug On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Ron Newman ron.new...@gmail.com wrote: But you're missing the point.: *something* is working for them if they believe it is, and is not for you or anyone who doesn't believe it is. The question is how does it work? No, that's not good enough, because it too easily leads back to premature assumptions. The question is: how can placebo be improved. Not set aside but improved. On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:47 AM, glen g...@ropella.name wrote: Barry MacKichan wrote at 04/04/2013 10:29 AM: I've heard it is very effective, but only for a time until the patient discovers it is a placebo. Call it the Lincoln effect (You can fool all of ….). A friend of mine announced that she's now getting acupuncture for her chronic back and neck pain. There's a zealot in our local CfI (http://www.centerforinquiry.net/) group who continuously and loudly shouts about acupuncture being as quackish as homeopathy. (Seriously... is there anything as quackish as homeopathy?) The tiny amount of time I've spent looking into acupuncture indicates that it's mostly nonsense with some slight possibility of truth in regard to certain _pressure_ points and nerve clusters. But nothing that an evidence-based masseuse couldn't achieve more effectively. But I kept my mouth shut and let her talk about how well it's worked so far. My dad also used acupuncture for a racquetball associated injury. He claimed it worked very well... [ahem] ... even better than his chiropractor. I didn't want to introduce any doubt that might interfere with her placebo effect. Interestingly, I was trying to apply the Golden Rule in a post-hoc analysis of my lack of action. Would I want someone to burst my placebo effect bubble? If so, when? Immediately? Or perhaps after some window of time as the placebo effect decays and it bumps up against the hard
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending
Just one small teensy note of clarification: I usually only insult people who disagree with me when they are/have been complete assholes about it. Which fortunately narrows the field down a bit. -Doug On Apr 4, 2013 6:11 PM, glen g...@ropella.name wrote: Douglas Roberts wrote at 04/04/2013 04:45 PM: I was using evidence in the scientific sense, You say that as if everyone agrees on the scientific sense of the term, which of course they don't. Even reputable scientists disagree on what constitutes evidence. I know you're willing to insult anyone with whom you disagree. But the fact remains that standards of evidence differ depending on the context of the discussion, the domain of inquiry, etc. Evidence in, say, cosmology or evolution is very different from evidence in, say, biology or physics. And that's without leaping out into the softer sciences. -- == glen e. p. ropella Looked pretty horny if I do say FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending
I think the church of satan grotos do that. Maybe we can start a sith and or jedi temple. On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 5:21 PM, Douglas Roberts d...@parrot-farm.netwrote: I personally find it disappointing that so many people are willing to adopt a belief set with no evidence, based solely on what someone said was The Truth. On a related note, now would appear to be an excellent time to start a church, impose mandatory weekly attendance upon the faithful, and charge $20 a head at the door each week. --Doug On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Nicholas Thompson nickthomp...@earthlink.net wrote: Yes but ….. ** ** I didn’t believe Watergate the first few times I heard about it, either. “You aren’t telling me that a president that was going to win an election in a walk actually sent Burglars into the Democratic Headquarters?” I just could not believe that they could be so stupid. I fell for Colin Powell’s thing at the UN; my wife didn’t buy it for a moment. I have to say, that in most contexts, I believe in gullibility. I think a little bit of gullibility is the best program for getting on in life. But I have been known to carry it too far. ** ** Nick ** ** *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas Roberts *Sent:* Thursday, April 04, 2013 3:39 PM *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending ** ** There are a surprising number of them on facebook, Nick. To nobody's great surprise, I guess. ** ** --Doug On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Nicholas Thompson nickthomp...@earthlink.net wrote: Doug, Somebody laid the chemtrails thing on me the other day … an otherwise perfectly sensible neighbor … and I was left standing in the street with my jaw hanging open. What do you say when somebody your sort of like, touches you on the upper arm, points skyward and says, “Call me nuts, but ….” I guess, “You’re nuts!” N *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas Roberts *Sent:* Thursday, April 04, 2013 12:14 PM *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending Well shoot, as long as we're talking about irrational belief sets, how about if we throw chemtrails into the mix. There is a not insignificant segment of the US population who fervently believe that they are poisoning us, on purpose. But only on those days that the jets leave con ... er ... chemtrails. No proof necessary, just *look* at those chemtrails. --Doug On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Ron Newman ron.new...@gmail.com wrote: But you're missing the point.: *something* is working for them if they believe it is, and is not for you or anyone who doesn't believe it is. The question is how does it work? No, that's not good enough, because it too easily leads back to premature assumptions. The question is: how can placebo be improved. Not set aside but improved. On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:47 AM, glen g...@ropella.name wrote: Barry MacKichan wrote at 04/04/2013 10:29 AM: I've heard it is very effective, but only for a time until the patient discovers it is a placebo. Call it the Lincoln effect (You can fool all of ….). A friend of mine announced that she's now getting acupuncture for her chronic back and neck pain. There's a zealot in our local CfI (http://www.centerforinquiry.net/) group who continuously and loudly shouts about acupuncture being as quackish as homeopathy. (Seriously... is there anything as quackish as homeopathy?) The tiny amount of time I've spent looking into acupuncture indicates that it's mostly nonsense with some slight possibility of truth in regard to certain _pressure_ points and nerve clusters. But nothing that an evidence-based masseuse couldn't achieve more effectively. But I kept my mouth shut and let her talk about how well it's worked so far. My dad also used acupuncture for a racquetball associated injury. He claimed it worked very well... [ahem] ... even better than his chiropractor. I didn't want to introduce any doubt that might interfere with her placebo effect. Interestingly, I was trying to apply the Golden Rule in a post-hoc analysis of my lack of action. Would I want someone to burst my placebo effect bubble? If so, when? Immediately? Or perhaps after some window of time as the placebo effect decays and it bumps up against the hard biophysical/physiological limits? -- == glen e. p. ropella I can't get no peace until I get into motion FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending
Doug if I may observe that you and Howl(sp) seem to have a great noes for asshoelery though in your case from what I can tell your ire for at least google and people not linux friendly goes up almost instantly. On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 6:23 PM, Douglas Roberts d...@parrot-farm.netwrote: Just one small teensy note of clarification: I usually only insult people who disagree with me when they are/have been complete assholes about it. Which fortunately narrows the field down a bit. -Doug On Apr 4, 2013 6:11 PM, glen g...@ropella.name wrote: Douglas Roberts wrote at 04/04/2013 04:45 PM: I was using evidence in the scientific sense, You say that as if everyone agrees on the scientific sense of the term, which of course they don't. Even reputable scientists disagree on what constitutes evidence. I know you're willing to insult anyone with whom you disagree. But the fact remains that standards of evidence differ depending on the context of the discussion, the domain of inquiry, etc. Evidence in, say, cosmology or evolution is very different from evidence in, say, biology or physics. And that's without leaping out into the softer sciences. -- == glen e. p. ropella Looked pretty horny if I do say FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending
your certain kind of zeel would make for a great sith lord- Just need to figure out how get you intune with the force enough to get people to come attend at the new sith temple On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 6:27 PM, Gillian Densmore gil.densm...@gmail.comwrote: Doug if I may observe that you and Howl(sp) seem to have a great noes for asshoelery though in your case from what I can tell your ire for at least google and people not linux friendly goes up almost instantly. On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 6:23 PM, Douglas Roberts d...@parrot-farm.netwrote: Just one small teensy note of clarification: I usually only insult people who disagree with me when they are/have been complete assholes about it. Which fortunately narrows the field down a bit. -Doug On Apr 4, 2013 6:11 PM, glen g...@ropella.name wrote: Douglas Roberts wrote at 04/04/2013 04:45 PM: I was using evidence in the scientific sense, You say that as if everyone agrees on the scientific sense of the term, which of course they don't. Even reputable scientists disagree on what constitutes evidence. I know you're willing to insult anyone with whom you disagree. But the fact remains that standards of evidence differ depending on the context of the discussion, the domain of inquiry, etc. Evidence in, say, cosmology or evolution is very different from evidence in, say, biology or physics. And that's without leaping out into the softer sciences. -- == glen e. p. ropella Looked pretty horny if I do say FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending
Just one small teensy note of clarification: I usually only insult people who disagree with me when they are/have been complete assholes about it. Which fortunately narrows the field down a bit. -Doug I can testify to this, as I disagree with Doug often and he only insults me when he's being a complete asshole about it grin! - Steve On Apr 4, 2013 6:11 PM, glen g...@ropella.name mailto:g...@ropella.name wrote: Douglas Roberts wrote at 04/04/2013 04:45 PM: I was using evidence in the scientific sense, You say that as if everyone agrees on the scientific sense of the term, which of course they don't. Even reputable scientists disagree on what constitutes evidence. I know you're willing to insult anyone with whom you disagree. But the fact remains that standards of evidence differ depending on the context of the discussion, the domain of inquiry, etc. Evidence in, say, cosmology or evolution is very different from evidence in, say, biology or physics. And that's without leaping out into the softer sciences. -- == glen e. p. ropella Looked pretty horny if I do say FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
[FRIAM] Fwd: iClarified - Apple News - Apple Extends Smartphone Market Share Lead Over Samsung [Chart]
I find this a bit hard to believe .. I thought Android was more dominant. I think the numbers are off, but.. http://www.iclarified.com/28871/apple-extends-smartphone-market-share-lead-over-samsung-chart ..sez: Apple has extended its smartphone market share lead over Samsung and is closing the gap on Android, according to the latest comScore report. *133.7 million people in the U.S. owned smartphones (57 percent mobile market penetration) during the three months ending in February, up 8 percent since November. Apple ranked as the top OEM with 38.9 percent of U.S. smartphone subscribers (up 3.9 percentage points from November). Samsung ranked second with 21.3 percent market share (up 1 percentage point), followed by HTC with 9.3 percent share, Motorola with 8.4 percent and LG with 6.8 percent. * Notably, iOS increased its market share while Android actually decreased in market share, according to the report. *Google Android ranked as the top smartphone platform with 51.7 percent market share, while Apple’s share increased 3.9 percentage points to 38.9 percent. BlackBerry ranked third with 5.4 percent share, followed by Microsoft (3.2 percent) and Symbian (0.5 percent).* -- Owen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] iClarified - Apple News - Apple Extends Smartphone Market Share Lead Over Samsung [Chart]
.. but I think this will change the stats: http://www.iclarified.com/28870/watch-the-first-facebook-home-ad-video Amazing: Facebook/Android adds are a'coming! -- Owen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Cloud storage
On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Edward Angel an...@cs.unm.edu wrote: I'm pretty simplistic about it and use mozy. My computers are backed up automatically and I don't spend any time thinking about it. The two times there was a failure of their data base on my machine getting corrupted, they were able to recover everything quickly. When we returned to NM after two months away, I found both a crashed disk and a hardware failure the backup disk on my wife's computer, both of which were powered down while we were away. A couple of clicks on the mozy site restored her whole disk. It's worth $150 a year. So what plan do you have? How's it work? Is a full disk backup, or do you specify directories? -- Owen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Cloud storage
You can specify directories or back up the whole disk. Being a little cheap and having 3 computers on my account, I don't back up the OS or some aps that are easy to reload. You pay by the how much space you use for up to three computers on the basic plan. I think carbonite is about the same. Ed __ Ed Angel Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab) Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico 1017 Sierra Pinon Santa Fe, NM 87501 505-984-0136 (home) an...@cs.unm.edu 505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel On Apr 4, 2013, at 9:25 PM, Owen Densmore wrote: On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Edward Angel an...@cs.unm.edu wrote: I'm pretty simplistic about it and use mozy. My computers are backed up automatically and I don't spend any time thinking about it. The two times there was a failure of their data base on my machine getting corrupted, they were able to recover everything quickly. When we returned to NM after two months away, I found both a crashed disk and a hardware failure the backup disk on my wife's computer, both of which were powered down while we were away. A couple of clicks on the mozy site restored her whole disk. It's worth $150 a year. So what plan do you have? How's it work? Is a full disk backup, or do you specify directories? -- Owen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending
Again, acting in my capacity as the Village Pragmatist, I would assert that science is the only procedure capable of producing lasting consensus. The other methods various forms of torture, mostly ... do not produce such enduring results. N -Original Message- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 6:12 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending Douglas Roberts wrote at 04/04/2013 04:45 PM: I was using evidence in the scientific sense, You say that as if everyone agrees on the scientific sense of the term, which of course they don't. Even reputable scientists disagree on what constitutes evidence. I know you're willing to insult anyone with whom you disagree. But the fact remains that standards of evidence differ depending on the context of the discussion, the domain of inquiry, etc. Evidence in, say, cosmology or evolution is very different from evidence in, say, biology or physics. And that's without leaping out into the softer sciences. -- == glen e. p. ropella Looked pretty horny if I do say FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
