Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

[gepr ⛧]

On June 20, 2017 8:16:57 PM PDT, Nick Thompson  
wrote:
>
>I dunno.  I never quite know what Glen is on about.  But I tended to
>read his response in terms of his cancer.  He is saying, “I am
>comforted by knowing that I am not the only man with cancer.”  If I
>were dying of cancer, would I be comforted to know that a million other
>people are dying of cancer?


Yes, you would.  But regardless of your nasty remark, the point is that only 
through large N clinical trials is effective therapy developed. So, if you have 
a conscience, you volunteer your life and body to experimentation so that even 
as you die those that follow have a better chance to live.


-- 
⛧glen⛧


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

[gepr ⛧]

On June 20, 2017 6:14:49 PM PDT, Nick Thompson  
wrote:
> 
>[NST==>I assume you would agree that “unmarried because unmarried” is
>perniciously circular.  Right?  Just checking. <==nst] 


Vapid, yes. Shallow, yes. Perhaps even vicious. But it's a little too empty, 
too obviously tautological to be pernicious.


>[NST==>I suppose that one could argue that any time one writes a
>sentence of the form, A is a B, one has launched into metaphor. <==nst]


I disagree, obviously. There are plenty of nonmetaphorical is-a relationships. 
E.g. a dog is a mammal. E is a letter in the alphabet. Etc.


-- 
⛧glen⛧


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

[Frank Wimberly]

p.s.  Did you see the article on the possibility that the Universe is
conscious?  Pretty distinguished supporters.

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

On Jun 20, 2017 9:21 PM, "Frank Wimberly"  wrote:

> No one notified me about a time/place.  Maybe they knew I wouldn't yield
> on the ineffability of consciousness.
>
> Maybe knowing everyone dies strengthens the oceanic feeling.
>
> Frank
>
>
> Frank Wimberly
> Phone (505) 670-9918
>
> On Jun 20, 2017 9:17 PM, "Nick Thompson" 
> wrote:
>
>> Frank,
>>
>>
>>
>> The Metaphor group.  I thought you were going to go along?
>>
>>
>>
>> To you point about uniqueness.  It’s odd.  Misery does love company, I
>> suppose. But,  I mean, really?  The only reason not to be bummed by not
>> being unique, is if the banality of one’s pain suggests a solution.  But
>> that was ruled out by Glen’s example, wasn’t it?
>>
>>
>>
>> I dunno.  I never quite know what Glen is on about.  But I tended to read
>> his response in terms of his cancer.  He is saying, “I am comforted by
>> knowing that I am not the only man with cancer.”  If I were dying of
>> cancer, would I be comforted to know that a million other people are dying
>> of cancer?
>>
>>
>>
>> I am just not sure.
>>
>>
>>
>> nIck
>>
>>
>>
>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>
>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>>
>> Clark University
>>
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Frank
>> Wimberly
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 20, 2017 10:05 PM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam@redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought
>>
>>
>>
>> Part of the pain comes from feeling unique in one's defect.
>>
>>
>>
>> What happened Monday?
>>
>>
>>
>> Frank
>>
>>
>>
>> Frank Wimberly
>> Phone (505) 670-9918
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 20, 2017 8:01 PM, "Nick Thompson" 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Frank,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I think Glen would reply that minor has all sorts of association that
>> provide some predictability.
>>
>>
>>
>> I can’t fight every battle in every email
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes.  And immediately I have felt really stupid for feeling that.  How on
>> earth could another’s pain meliorate mine!
>>
>>
>>
>> What was Monday like?
>>
>>
>>
>> N
>>
>>
>>
>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>
>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>>
>> Clark University
>>
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Frank
>> Wimberly
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 20, 2017 9:45 PM
>> *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <
>> friam@redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick,
>>
>>
>>
>> *[NST==>I suppose that one could argue that any time one writes a
>> sentence of the form, A is a B, one has launched into metaphor. <==nst] *
>>
>>
>>
>> What about, “every planet in the Solar System that is closer to the Sun
>> than Jupiter is a minor planet.”
>>
>>
>>
>> Why didn’t you challenge Glen’s use of the phrase “human mind”?
>>
>>
>>
>> Haven’t you ever felt, “Wow, if there’s a word for what I am it must not
>> be too bad”?
>>
>>
>>
>> Frank
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz
>>
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>>
>>
>> wimber...@gmail.com wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu
>>
>> Phone:  (505) 995-8715  Cell:  (505) 670-9918
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Nick
>> Thompson
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 20, 2017 7:15 PM
>> *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks, Glen,
>>
>>
>>
>> Kind of you to respond.
>>
>>
>>
>> I will do a bit of larding below.
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>
>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>>
>> Clark University
>>
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com ]
>> On Behalf Of glen ?
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 3:42 PM
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > >
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Y'all say:
>>
>>
>>
>> In http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/2
>> 0170619/f46244d3/attachment-0001.pdf:
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> > If our analysis is correct, then the distinction between explanation
>>
>> > and description takes on an entirely new importance in science.
>>
>> > ...
>>
>> > The young man thinks, "This is not a unique problem, I am just a
>>
>> > bachelor," and goes about his business with a happier heart.
>>
>> > However, such relief is the philosophical equivalent of a placebo, and
>>
>> > it may be short- 

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

[Frank Wimberly]

No one notified me about a time/place.  Maybe they knew I wouldn't yield on
the ineffability of consciousness.

Maybe knowing everyone dies strengthens the oceanic feeling.

Frank


Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

On Jun 20, 2017 9:17 PM, "Nick Thompson"  wrote:

> Frank,
>
>
>
> The Metaphor group.  I thought you were going to go along?
>
>
>
> To you point about uniqueness.  It’s odd.  Misery does love company, I
> suppose. But,  I mean, really?  The only reason not to be bummed by not
> being unique, is if the banality of one’s pain suggests a solution.  But
> that was ruled out by Glen’s example, wasn’t it?
>
>
>
> I dunno.  I never quite know what Glen is on about.  But I tended to read
> his response in terms of his cancer.  He is saying, “I am comforted by
> knowing that I am not the only man with cancer.”  If I were dying of
> cancer, would I be comforted to know that a million other people are dying
> of cancer?
>
>
>
> I am just not sure.
>
>
>
> nIck
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Frank
> Wimberly
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 20, 2017 10:05 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought
>
>
>
> Part of the pain comes from feeling unique in one's defect.
>
>
>
> What happened Monday?
>
>
>
> Frank
>
>
>
> Frank Wimberly
> Phone (505) 670-9918
>
>
>
> On Jun 20, 2017 8:01 PM, "Nick Thompson" 
> wrote:
>
> Frank,
>
>
>
>
>
> I think Glen would reply that minor has all sorts of association that
> provide some predictability.
>
>
>
> I can’t fight every battle in every email
>
>
>
> Yes.  And immediately I have felt really stupid for feeling that.  How on
> earth could another’s pain meliorate mine!
>
>
>
> What was Monday like?
>
>
>
> N
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Frank
> Wimberly
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 20, 2017 9:45 PM
> *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought
>
>
>
> Nick,
>
>
>
> *[NST==>I suppose that one could argue that any time one writes a sentence
> of the form, A is a B, one has launched into metaphor. <==nst] *
>
>
>
> What about, “every planet in the Solar System that is closer to the Sun
> than Jupiter is a minor planet.”
>
>
>
> Why didn’t you challenge Glen’s use of the phrase “human mind”?
>
>
>
> Haven’t you ever felt, “Wow, if there’s a word for what I am it must not
> be too bad”?
>
>
>
> Frank
>
>
>
>
>
> Frank C. Wimberly
>
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz
>
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
>
>
> wimber...@gmail.com wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu
>
> Phone:  (505) 995-8715  Cell:  (505) 670-9918
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Nick
> Thompson
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 20, 2017 7:15 PM
> *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought
>
>
>
> Thanks, Glen,
>
>
>
> Kind of you to respond.
>
>
>
> I will do a bit of larding below.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com ]
> On Behalf Of glen ?
> Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 3:42 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought
>
>
>
>
>
> Y'all say:
>
>
>
> In http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/
> 20170619/f46244d3/attachment-0001.pdf:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > If our analysis is correct, then the distinction between explanation
>
> > and description takes on an entirely new importance in science.
>
> > ...
>
> > The young man thinks, "This is not a unique problem, I am just a
>
> > bachelor," and goes about his business with a happier heart.
>
> > However, such relief is the philosophical equivalent of a placebo, and
>
> > it may be short- lived. Knowing that he is a bachelor tells the young
>
> > man nothing about his predicament that he did not already know. He
>
> > knew that he was unmarried, and that is all that it means to say one is
> a bachelor. Moreover, he has learned nothing that might help him find a
> solution to the problem.
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> But, it seems to me that "This is not a unique problem" is THE fundamental
> scientific point.  It may be the only thing about science that anyone
> should 

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

[Nick Thompson]

Frank, 

 

The Metaphor group.  I thought you were going to go along?

 

To you point about uniqueness.  It’s odd.  Misery does love company, I suppose. 
But,  I mean, really?  The only reason not to be bummed by not being unique, is 
if the banality of one’s pain suggests a solution.  But that was ruled out by 
Glen’s example, wasn’t it?  

 

I dunno.  I never quite know what Glen is on about.  But I tended to read his 
response in terms of his cancer.  He is saying, “I am comforted by knowing that 
I am not the only man with cancer.”  If I were dying of cancer, would I be 
comforted to know that a million other people are dying of cancer?  

 

I am just not sure. 

 

nIck 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

  
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 10:05 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

 

Part of the pain comes from feeling unique in one's defect.

 

What happened Monday?

 

Frank

 

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

 

On Jun 20, 2017 8:01 PM, "Nick Thompson"  > wrote:

Frank, 

 

 

I think Glen would reply that minor has all sorts of association that provide 
some predictability. 

 

I can’t fight every battle in every email

 

Yes.  And immediately I have felt really stupid for feeling that.  How on earth 
could another’s pain meliorate mine! 

 

What was Monday like?  

 

N

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

  
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com 
 ] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 9:45 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'  >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

 

Nick,

 

[NST==>I suppose that one could argue that any time one writes a sentence of 
the form, A is a B, one has launched into metaphor. <==nst] 

 

What about, “every planet in the Solar System that is closer to the Sun than 
Jupiter is a minor planet.”

 

Why didn’t you challenge Glen’s use of the phrase “human mind”?

 

Haven’t you ever felt, “Wow, if there’s a word for what I am it must not be too 
bad”?

 

Frank

 

 

Frank C. Wimberly

140 Calle Ojo Feliz

Santa Fe, NM 87505

 

  wimber...@gmail.com  
 wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu

Phone:  (505) 995-8715    Cell:  (505) 670-9918 
 

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com 
 ] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 7:15 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

 

Thanks, Glen, 

 

Kind of you to respond.  

 

I will do a bit of larding below. 

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 3:42 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group  >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

 

 

Y'all say:

 

In  

 
http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20170619/f46244d3/attachment-0001.pdf:

> 

> 

> If our analysis is correct, then the distinction between explanation 

> and description takes on an entirely new importance in science.

> ...

> The young man thinks, "This is not a unique problem, I am just a 

> bachelor," and goes about his business with a happier heart.

> However, such relief is the philosophical equivalent of a placebo, and 

> it may be short- lived. Knowing that he is a bachelor tells the young 

> man nothing about his predicament that he did not already know. He 

> knew that he was unmarried, and that is all that it means to say one is a 
> bachelor. Moreover, he has learned nothing that might help him find a 
> solution to the problem.

> 

> 

 

 

But, it seems to me that "This is not a unique problem" is THE fundamental 
scientific point.  It may be the only thing about science that anyone should 
care about.  You even lectured me way back to be careful about conflating 
idiographic vs. NOM-othetic information 

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

[Frank Wimberly]

Part of the pain comes from feeling unique in one's defect.

What happened Monday?

Frank


Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

On Jun 20, 2017 8:01 PM, "Nick Thompson"  wrote:

> Frank,
>
>
>
>
>
> I think Glen would reply that minor has all sorts of association that
> provide some predictability.
>
>
>
> I can’t fight every battle in every email
>
>
>
> Yes.  And immediately I have felt really stupid for feeling that.  How on
> earth could another’s pain meliorate mine!
>
>
>
> What was Monday like?
>
>
>
> N
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Frank
> Wimberly
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 20, 2017 9:45 PM
> *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought
>
>
>
> Nick,
>
>
>
> *[NST==>I suppose that one could argue that any time one writes a sentence
> of the form, A is a B, one has launched into metaphor. <==nst] *
>
>
>
> What about, “every planet in the Solar System that is closer to the Sun
> than Jupiter is a minor planet.”
>
>
>
> Why didn’t you challenge Glen’s use of the phrase “human mind”?
>
>
>
> Haven’t you ever felt, “Wow, if there’s a word for what I am it must not
> be too bad”?
>
>
>
> Frank
>
>
>
>
>
> Frank C. Wimberly
>
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz
>
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
>
>
> wimber...@gmail.com wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu
>
> Phone:  (505) 995-8715  Cell:  (505) 670-9918
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Nick
> Thompson
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 20, 2017 7:15 PM
> *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought
>
>
>
> Thanks, Glen,
>
>
>
> Kind of you to respond.
>
>
>
> I will do a bit of larding below.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com ]
> On Behalf Of glen ?
> Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 3:42 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought
>
>
>
>
>
> Y'all say:
>
>
>
> In http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/
> 20170619/f46244d3/attachment-0001.pdf:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > If our analysis is correct, then the distinction between explanation
>
> > and description takes on an entirely new importance in science.
>
> > ...
>
> > The young man thinks, "This is not a unique problem, I am just a
>
> > bachelor," and goes about his business with a happier heart.
>
> > However, such relief is the philosophical equivalent of a placebo, and
>
> > it may be short- lived. Knowing that he is a bachelor tells the young
>
> > man nothing about his predicament that he did not already know. He
>
> > knew that he was unmarried, and that is all that it means to say one is
> a bachelor. Moreover, he has learned nothing that might help him find a
> solution to the problem.
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> But, it seems to me that "This is not a unique problem" is THE fundamental
> scientific point.  It may be the only thing about science that anyone
> should care about.  You even lectured me way back to be careful about
> conflating idiographic vs. NOM-othetic information (emphasis is
> purposeful).  Circularity (of description or explanation) is irrelevant.
> What matters is the reproducibility of experiments.  It doesn't matter what
> you think happens between the laser and the film.  What matters is that it
> does the same thing every time you run the experiment and which changes to
> the experiment cause which changes to the outcome.
>
> *[NST==>Wow, Glen.  You are the only person I ever met who successfully
> squeezed positive heuristic out of the bachelor case.  Well done!<==nst] *
>
>
>
>
>
> You may notice this is the same sort of criticism I applied to your paper
> about filter explanations.  Even _if_ a particular bit of reasoning is
> circular, as long as it's not trivially circular ("flat", "thin", or
> "shallow"), there is information to be gained from examining that _circle_,
> that loop.  So, the loop of unmarried <=> bachelor has information in it,
> even if the only information is (as in your example), the guy learns that
> because the condition has another name, perhaps there are other ways of
> thinking about it ... other _circles_ to use.
>
> *[NST==>I assume you would agree that “unmarried because unmarried” is
> perniciously circular.  Right?  Just checking. <==nst] *
>
>
>
>
>
> Now, if instead of the vagaries of psychology and natural language, you
> were talking in math or logic, even thick 

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

[Nick Thompson]

Frank, 

 

 

I think Glen would reply that minor has all sorts of association that provide 
some predictability. 

 

I can’t fight every battle in every email

 

Yes.  And immediately I have felt really stupid for feeling that.  How on earth 
could another’s pain meliorate mine! 

 

What was Monday like?  

 

N

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

  
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 9:45 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

 

Nick,

 

[NST==>I suppose that one could argue that any time one writes a sentence of 
the form, A is a B, one has launched into metaphor. <==nst] 

 

What about, “every planet in the Solar System that is closer to the Sun than 
Jupiter is a minor planet.”

 

Why didn’t you challenge Glen’s use of the phrase “human mind”?

 

Haven’t you ever felt, “Wow, if there’s a word for what I am it must not be too 
bad”?

 

Frank

 

 

Frank C. Wimberly

140 Calle Ojo Feliz

Santa Fe, NM 87505

 

  wimber...@gmail.com  
 wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu

Phone:  (505) 995-8715  Cell:  (505) 670-9918

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 7:15 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

 

Thanks, Glen, 

 

Kind of you to respond.  

 

I will do a bit of larding below. 

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 3:42 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group  >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

 

 

Y'all say:

 

In  

 
http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20170619/f46244d3/attachment-0001.pdf:

> 

> 

> If our analysis is correct, then the distinction between explanation 

> and description takes on an entirely new importance in science.

> ...

> The young man thinks, "This is not a unique problem, I am just a 

> bachelor," and goes about his business with a happier heart.

> However, such relief is the philosophical equivalent of a placebo, and 

> it may be short- lived. Knowing that he is a bachelor tells the young 

> man nothing about his predicament that he did not already know. He 

> knew that he was unmarried, and that is all that it means to say one is a 
> bachelor. Moreover, he has learned nothing that might help him find a 
> solution to the problem.

> 

> 

 

 

But, it seems to me that "This is not a unique problem" is THE fundamental 
scientific point.  It may be the only thing about science that anyone should 
care about.  You even lectured me way back to be careful about conflating 
idiographic vs. NOM-othetic information (emphasis is purposeful).  Circularity 
(of description or explanation) is irrelevant.  What matters is the 
reproducibility of experiments.  It doesn't matter what you think happens 
between the laser and the film.  What matters is that it does the same thing 
every time you run the experiment and which changes to the experiment cause 
which changes to the outcome.

[NST==>Wow, Glen.  You are the only person I ever met who successfully squeezed 
positive heuristic out of the bachelor case.  Well done!<==nst] 

 

 

You may notice this is the same sort of criticism I applied to your paper about 
filter explanations.  Even _if_ a particular bit of reasoning is circular, as 
long as it's not trivially circular ("flat", "thin", or "shallow"), there is 
information to be gained from examining that _circle_, that loop.  So, the loop 
of unmarried <=> bachelor has information in it, even if the only information 
is (as in your example), the guy learns that because the condition has another 
name, perhaps there are other ways of thinking about it ... other _circles_ to 
use.

[NST==>I assume you would agree that “unmarried because unmarried” is 
perniciously circular.  Right?  Just checking. <==nst] 

 

 

Now, if instead of the vagaries of psychology and natural language, you were 
talking in math or logic, even thick loops are more easily reduced to their 
thin ("normalized", "canonical") form.  So, we can conclude, the more formal 
the language used to express the circle, the more obvious the circle.  But 
you're not talking in or about 

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

[Frank Wimberly]

Nick,

 

[NST==>I suppose that one could argue that any time one writes a sentence of 
the form, A is a B, one has launched into metaphor. <==nst] 

 

What about, “every planet in the Solar System that is closer to the Sun than 
Jupiter is a minor planet.”

 

Why didn’t you challenge Glen’s use of the phrase “human mind”?

 

Haven’t you ever felt, “Wow, if there’s a word for what I am it must not be too 
bad”?

 

Frank

 

 

Frank C. Wimberly

140 Calle Ojo Feliz

Santa Fe, NM 87505

 

  wimber...@gmail.com  
 wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu

Phone:  (505) 995-8715  Cell:  (505) 670-9918

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 7:15 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

 

Thanks, Glen, 

 

Kind of you to respond.  

 

I will do a bit of larding below. 

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 3:42 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

 

 

Y'all say:

 

In  

 
http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20170619/f46244d3/attachment-0001.pdf:

> 

> 

> If our analysis is correct, then the distinction between explanation 

> and description takes on an entirely new importance in science.

> ...

> The young man thinks, "This is not a unique problem, I am just a 

> bachelor," and goes about his business with a happier heart.

> However, such relief is the philosophical equivalent of a placebo, and 

> it may be short- lived. Knowing that he is a bachelor tells the young 

> man nothing about his predicament that he did not already know. He 

> knew that he was unmarried, and that is all that it means to say one is a 
> bachelor. Moreover, he has learned nothing that might help him find a 
> solution to the problem.

> 

> 

 

 

But, it seems to me that "This is not a unique problem" is THE fundamental 
scientific point.  It may be the only thing about science that anyone should 
care about.  You even lectured me way back to be careful about conflating 
idiographic vs. NOM-othetic information (emphasis is purposeful).  Circularity 
(of description or explanation) is irrelevant.  What matters is the 
reproducibility of experiments.  It doesn't matter what you think happens 
between the laser and the film.  What matters is that it does the same thing 
every time you run the experiment and which changes to the experiment cause 
which changes to the outcome.

[NST==>Wow, Glen.  You are the only person I ever met who successfully squeezed 
positive heuristic out of the bachelor case.  Well done!<==nst] 

 

 

You may notice this is the same sort of criticism I applied to your paper about 
filter explanations.  Even _if_ a particular bit of reasoning is circular, as 
long as it's not trivially circular ("flat", "thin", or "shallow"), there is 
information to be gained from examining that _circle_, that loop.  So, the loop 
of unmarried <=> bachelor has information in it, even if the only information 
is (as in your example), the guy learns that because the condition has another 
name, perhaps there are other ways of thinking about it ... other _circles_ to 
use.

[NST==>I assume you would agree that “unmarried because unmarried” is 
perniciously circular.  Right?  Just checking. <==nst] 

 

 

Now, if instead of the vagaries of psychology and natural language, you were 
talking in math or logic, even thick loops are more easily reduced to their 
thin ("normalized", "canonical") form.  So, we can conclude, the more formal 
the language used to express the circle, the more obvious the circle.  But 
you're not talking in or about math or logic.  You're talking about psychology, 
human thought, etc. in this paper.  And therefore my response to you is:

[NST==>I suppose that one could argue that any time one writes a sentence of 
the form, A is a B, one has launched into metaphor. <==nst] 

 

 

Are YOU relying too heavily on the (silly) metaphor of computer to brain?  
Software to thought? 

[NST==>I hope not.  I HATE that metaphor. <==nst] 

 >8^D

 

 

I'm only on page 7.  So, maybe you eventually address this point. 

[NST==>You are one of the few people on the planet to reach page 7.  How could 
I cavil!<==nst] 

 Sorry if that's the case.

[NST==>I will be interested to see if the next few pages help in any way. 

 

Thanks again, glen<==nst] 

 

 

 

On 06/18/2017 09:46 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

> FWLIW, The attached PDF is 

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

[Nick Thompson]

Thanks, Glen, 

 

Kind of you to respond.  

 

I will do a bit of larding below. 

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 3:42 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

 

 

Y'all say:

 

In  

 
http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20170619/f46244d3/attachment-0001.pdf:

> 

> 

> If our analysis is correct, then the distinction between explanation 

> and description takes on an entirely new importance in science.

> ...

> The young man thinks, "This is not a unique problem, I am just a 

> bachelor," and goes about his business with a happier heart.

> However, such relief is the philosophical equivalent of a placebo, and 

> it may be short- lived. Knowing that he is a bachelor tells the young 

> man nothing about his predicament that he did not already know. He 

> knew that he was unmarried, and that is all that it means to say one is a 
> bachelor. Moreover, he has learned nothing that might help him find a 
> solution to the problem.

> 

> 

 

 

But, it seems to me that "This is not a unique problem" is THE fundamental 
scientific point.  It may be the only thing about science that anyone should 
care about.  You even lectured me way back to be careful about conflating 
idiographic vs. NOM-othetic information (emphasis is purposeful).  Circularity 
(of description or explanation) is irrelevant.  What matters is the 
reproducibility of experiments.  It doesn't matter what you think happens 
between the laser and the film.  What matters is that it does the same thing 
every time you run the experiment and which changes to the experiment cause 
which changes to the outcome.

[NST==>Wow, Glen.  You are the only person I ever met who successfully squeezed 
positive heuristic out of the bachelor case.  Well done!<==nst] 

 

 

You may notice this is the same sort of criticism I applied to your paper about 
filter explanations.  Even _if_ a particular bit of reasoning is circular, as 
long as it's not trivially circular ("flat", "thin", or "shallow"), there is 
information to be gained from examining that _circle_, that loop.  So, the loop 
of unmarried <=> bachelor has information in it, even if the only information 
is (as in your example), the guy learns that because the condition has another 
name, perhaps there are other ways of thinking about it ... other _circles_ to 
use.

[NST==>I assume you would agree that “unmarried because unmarried” is 
perniciously circular.  Right?  Just checking. <==nst] 

 

 

Now, if instead of the vagaries of psychology and natural language, you were 
talking in math or logic, even thick loops are more easily reduced to their 
thin ("normalized", "canonical") form.  So, we can conclude, the more formal 
the language used to express the circle, the more obvious the circle.  But 
you're not talking in or about math or logic.  You're talking about psychology, 
human thought, etc. in this paper.  And therefore my response to you is:

[NST==>I suppose that one could argue that any time one writes a sentence of 
the form, A is a B, one has launched into metaphor. <==nst] 

 

 

Are YOU relying too heavily on the (silly) metaphor of computer to brain?  
Software to thought? 

[NST==>I hope not.  I HATE that metaphor. <==nst] 

 >8^D

 

 

I'm only on page 7.  So, maybe you eventually address this point. 

[NST==>You are one of the few people on the planet to reach page 7.  How could 
I cavil!<==nst] 

 Sorry if that's the case.

[NST==>I will be interested to see if the next few pages help in any way. 

 

Thanks again, glen<==nst] 

 

 

 

On 06/18/2017 09:46 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

> FWLIW, The attached PDF is from a book manuscript,  pieces of which have been 
> kicking around for more than 40 years, which Eric Charles has been trying 
> unsuccessfully to get me to pull together into something publishable. If any 
> of you is curious, the text will help you to understand the things I said in 
> the recent complexity discussion and their relation to the “levels” 
> discussion and the metaphor discussion that follows.  The specific discussion 
> on metaphor is late in the pdf, so that if that is what interests you, you 
> can safely skip to the first section on models.  For me, a model is just a 
> scientific metaphor. Full stop.

> 

>  

> 

> If anybody had comments to share, we, of course, would be deeply grateful.

 

--

☣ glen

 



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to 

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

[glen ☣]

Just in case it needs to be stated, explicitly, I'm also interested in your 
deliberations.  At a minimum, it would be very cool to see a reading list, 
things your collective feel are important to being able to hold a conversation 
in the domain.


On 06/18/2017 09:46 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:
> I understand that some members of the Mother Church are getting together
> soon for a discussion on the role of Metaphor in Scientific Thought.  Hard
> for me to imagine a meeting that I would regret missing more than this one.
> I hope that some of you will post some of your deliberations under this
> thread so that those of us in the Friam diaspora can have some of the value
> of them.  

-- 
☣ glen


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

[glen ☣]

Y'all say:

In 
http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20170619/f46244d3/attachment-0001.pdf:
> 
> 
> If our analysis is correct, then the distinction between explanation and 
> description takes
> on an entirely new importance in science.
> ...
> The young man thinks, "This is not a unique problem, I am just a bachelor," 
> and goes about his
> business with a happier heart.
> However, such relief is the philosophical equivalent of a placebo, and it may 
> be short-
> lived. Knowing that he is a bachelor tells the young man nothing about his 
> predicament that he
> did not already know. He knew that he was unmarried, and that is all that it 
> means to say one is a
> bachelor. Moreover, he has learned nothing that might help him find a 
> solution to the problem.
> 
> 


But, it seems to me that "This is not a unique problem" is THE fundamental 
scientific point.  It may be the only thing about science that anyone should 
care about.  You even lectured me way back to be careful about conflating 
idiographic vs. NOM-othetic information (emphasis is purposeful).  Circularity 
(of description or explanation) is irrelevant.  What matters is the 
reproducibility of experiments.  It doesn't matter what you think happens 
between the laser and the film.  What matters is that it does the same thing 
every time you run the experiment and which changes to the experiment cause 
which changes to the outcome.


You may notice this is the same sort of criticism I applied to your paper about 
filter explanations.  Even _if_ a particular bit of reasoning is circular, as 
long as it's not trivially circular ("flat", "thin", or "shallow"), there is 
information to be gained from examining that _circle_, that loop.  So, the loop 
of unmarried <=> bachelor has information in it, even if the only information 
is (as in your example), the guy learns that because the condition has another 
name, perhaps there are other ways of thinking about it ... other _circles_ to 
use.


Now, if instead of the vagaries of psychology and natural language, you were 
talking in math or logic, even thick loops are more easily reduced to their 
thin ("normalized", "canonical") form.  So, we can conclude, the more formal 
the language used to express the circle, the more obvious the circle.  But 
you're not talking in or about math or logic.  You're talking about psychology, 
human thought, etc. in this paper.  And therefore my response to you is:


Are YOU relying too heavily on the (silly) metaphor of computer to brain?  
Software to thought?  >8^D


I'm only on page 7.  So, maybe you eventually address this point.  Sorry if 
that's the case.



On 06/18/2017 09:46 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:
> FWLIW, The attached PDF is from a book manuscript,  pieces of which have been 
> kicking around for more than 40 years, which Eric Charles has been trying 
> unsuccessfully to get me to pull together into something publishable. If any 
> of you is curious, the text will help you to understand the things I said in 
> the recent complexity discussion and their relation to the “levels” 
> discussion and the metaphor discussion that follows.  The specific discussion 
> on metaphor is late in the pdf, so that if that is what interests you, you 
> can safely skip to the first section on models.  For me, a model is just a 
> scientific metaphor. Full stop.
> 
>  
> 
> If anybody had comments to share, we, of course, would be deeply grateful.

-- 
☣ glen


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] All Your Them Are One Model To Us Learn

[glen ☣]

On 06/20/2017 11:15 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> The last thing you want is your personal assistant robot putting your 
> Labradoodle in the refrigerator.

But what if you want to eat the other half later?

-- 
☣ glen


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] All Your Them Are One Model To Us Learn

[Marcus Daniels]

Table 3 suggests that there are general information processing features that 
translate across domains.   Table 4 suggests that becoming an expert in many 
things doesn’t make you (much) of a worse expert in any one thing.   Don’t pull 
your kid out of liberal arts college just yet?   And weirdly different domains 
too.   Perhaps there is some natural modularity that comes out of the 
contrasting training sets, even without the attentional mechanism?

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 9:56 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] All Your Them Are One Model To Us Learn

Wow, Roger.  I don't get all this, but tell me---does this change everything 
for modelers?

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 9:39 AM, Roger Critchlow 
> wrote:
Apropos my babbling about all patterns being patterns and all the mechanisms 
that recognize patterns being an incomprehensible jumble of mechanisms, Google 
shares One Model to Learn Them All, https://arxiv.org/abs/1706.05137, in which 
it turns out that throwing all the architectural elements from all kinds of 
deep learning into a single model ends up working pretty well.  Adding the 
recursive elements used to parse the linear sequences of elements in languages 
never hurts and mostly improves the performance of image classifiers and object 
recognizers.  Go figure.

Found from 
https://venturebeat.com/2017/06/19/google-advances-ai-with-one-model-to-learn-them-all/amp/

-- rec --



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove



--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding
Saint Paul University
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

merlelefk...@gmail.com
mobile:  (303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] All Your Them Are One Model To Us Learn

[Merle Lefkoff]

Wow, Roger.  I don't get all this, but tell me---does this change
everything for modelers?

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 9:39 AM, Roger Critchlow  wrote:

> Apropos my babbling about all patterns being patterns and all the
> mechanisms that recognize patterns being an incomprehensible jumble of
> mechanisms, Google shares One Model to Learn Them All,
> https://arxiv.org/abs/1706.05137, in which it turns out that throwing all
> the architectural elements from all kinds of deep learning into a single
> model ends up working pretty well.  Adding the recursive elements used to
> parse the linear sequences of elements in languages never hurts and mostly
> improves the performance of image classifiers and object recognizers.  Go
> figure.
>
> Found from https://venturebeat.com/2017/06/19/google-advances-ai-
> with-one-model-to-learn-them-all/amp/
>
> -- rec --
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>



-- 
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding
Saint Paul University
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

merlelefk...@gmail.com 
mobile:  (303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] All Your Them Are One Model To Us Learn

[Marcus Daniels]

Figure 1:  The machines are coming!

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 9:40 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: [FRIAM] All Your Them Are One Model To Us Learn

Apropos my babbling about all patterns being patterns and all the mechanisms 
that recognize patterns being an incomprehensible jumble of mechanisms, Google 
shares One Model to Learn Them All, https://arxiv.org/abs/1706.05137, in which 
it turns out that throwing all the architectural elements from all kinds of 
deep learning into a single model ends up working pretty well.  Adding the 
recursive elements used to parse the linear sequences of elements in languages 
never hurts and mostly improves the performance of image classifiers and object 
recognizers.  Go figure.

Found from 
https://venturebeat.com/2017/06/19/google-advances-ai-with-one-model-to-learn-them-all/amp/

-- rec --


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[FRIAM] All Your Them Are One Model To Us Learn

[Roger Critchlow]

Apropos my babbling about all patterns being patterns and all the
mechanisms that recognize patterns being an incomprehensible jumble of
mechanisms, Google shares One Model to Learn Them All,
https://arxiv.org/abs/1706.05137, in which it turns out that throwing all
the architectural elements from all kinds of deep learning into a single
model ends up working pretty well.  Adding the recursive elements used to
parse the linear sequences of elements in languages never hurts and mostly
improves the performance of image classifiers and object recognizers.  Go
figure.

Found from https://venturebeat.com/2017/06/19/google-advances-ai-with-
one-model-to-learn-them-all/amp/

-- rec --

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove