Re: [FRIAM] Airstrikes in Libya. Is it necessary?
I fear that this sounds like blaming the victims (i.e. the Libyan people), but I haven't heard discussion of the difference between how Egypt managed its overthrow of its dictator versus how Libya has attempted to do so. At least from just watching the two situations unfold on network TV (CNN BBC), it seems that the Egyptian revolution was essentially peaceful, with passive resistance to the status quo by a large number of unarmed people. Perhaps Mubarak was just that much less of a tyrant than Gadhafi, or maybe it really does show the power of nonviolent resistance. In any case, the Libyan rebels took up arms early on, and in a sense empowered Gadhafi by giving him an excuse for retaliating. I wonder what would have happened if the resistance there had remained peaceful. Thoughts? FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Airstrikes in Libya. Is it necessary?
Robert Fisk speaks to this point. The Egyptian military officer class is a core element of the social structure of that country. Many of the young officers who were directed to shoot civilians sought the counsel of their own fathers (by cell phones), who forbade doing so. On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 8:11 AM, Gary Schiltz g...@naturesvisualarts.comwrote: I fear that this sounds like blaming the victims (i.e. the Libyan people), but I haven't heard discussion of the difference between how Egypt managed its overthrow of its dictator versus how Libya has attempted to do so. At least from just watching the two situations unfold on network TV (CNN BBC), it seems that the Egyptian revolution was essentially peaceful, with passive resistance to the status quo by a large number of unarmed people. Perhaps Mubarak was just that much less of a tyrant than Gadhafi, or maybe it really does show the power of nonviolent resistance. In any case, the Libyan rebels took up arms early on, and in a sense empowered Gadhafi by giving him an excuse for retaliating. I wonder what would have happened if the resistance there had remained peaceful. Thoughts? FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Airstrikes in Libya. Is it necessary?
Ditto what Patrick said. In the end, one of the most important aspects of whether or not an insurrection is successful is which way the military goes. In Egypt, for the most part, the military refused to fire, and in the end sided with the rebels. The question for Egypt now is whether or not the military will give up control in an election (it looks like they will, but you never know). One important correlate of this, is that it matters who the military is. The Egyptian military was made entirely of Egyptians, and the crowds were Egyptians. One of the things you kept hearing out of Libya when this mess started, was that people were unsure who the military personnel were that were attacking them. If the Libyan army was composed mostly of foreign mercenaries, which seems likely, that might explain much of the difference between the two situations. (For a US example, recall that Robert E. Lee would likely have stayed with the Union, and not joined the Confederacy, if Lincoln had not made the mistake of ordering him to attack fellow Virginians.) Eric On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 11:11 AM, Gary Schiltz g...@naturesvisualarts.com wrote: I fear that this sounds like blaming the victims (i.e. the Libyan people), but I haven't heard discussion of the difference between how Egypt managed its overthrow of its dictator versus how Libya has attempted to do so. At least from just watching the two situations unfold on network TV (CNN BBC), it seems that the Egyptian revolution was essentially peaceful, with passive resistance to the status quo by a large number of unarmed people. Perhaps Mubarak was just that much less of a tyrant than Gadhafi, or maybe it really does show the power of nonviolent resistance. In any case, the Libyan rebels took up arms early on, and in a sense empowered Gadhafi by giving him an excuse for retaliating. I wonder what would have happened if the resistance there had remained peaceful. Thoughts? FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org Eric Charles Professional Student and Assistant Professor of Psychology Penn State University Altoona, PA 16601 FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
[FRIAM] Airstrikes in Libya. Is it necessary?
Is it necessary to open Pandora's Box? -- Forwarded message -- From: NYTimes.com News Alert nytdir...@nytimes.com Date: 2011/3/19 Subject: News Alert: U.S. Joins Airstrikes in Libya Against Qaddafi Forces To: alfredocoval...@aim.com Breaking News Alert The New York Times Sat, March 19, 2011 -- 4:07 PM ET - U.S. Joins Airstrikes in Libya Against Qaddafi Forces The United States confirmed on Saturday afternoon that it had joined airstrikes in Libya. The action by European, American and Arab leaders to stop Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi's attacks on the Libyan opposition is the largest international military intervention in the Arab world since the invasion of Iraq. Read More: http://www.nytimes.com?emc=na About This E-Mail You received this message because you are signed up to receive breaking news alerts from NYTimes.com. To unsubscribe, change your e-mail address or to sign up for daily headlines or other newsletters, go to: http://www.nytimes.com/email NYTimes.com 620 Eighth Ave. New York, NY 10018 Copyright 2011 The New York Times Company -- Alfredo FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Airstrikes in Libya. Is it necessary?
This is one of the few times that I support US military action. I have no doubt that our government will screw-up the endgame, of course. On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 1:55 PM, Alfredo Covaleda alfredocoval...@gmail.com wrote: Is it necessary to open Pandora's Box? -- Forwarded message -- From: NYTimes.com News Alert nytdir...@nytimes.com Date: 2011/3/19 Subject: News Alert: U.S. Joins Airstrikes in Libya Against Qaddafi Forces To: alfredocoval...@aim.com Breaking News Alert The New York Times Sat, March 19, 2011 -- 4:07 PM ET - U.S. Joins Airstrikes in Libya Against Qaddafi Forces The United States confirmed on Saturday afternoon that it had joined airstrikes in Libya. The action by European, American and Arab leaders to stop Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi's attacks on the Libyan opposition is the largest international military intervention in the Arab world since the invasion of Iraq. Read More: http://www.nytimes.com?emc=na About This E-Mail You received this message because you are signed up to receive breaking news alerts from NYTimes.com. To unsubscribe, change your e-mail address or to sign up for daily headlines or other newsletters, go to: http://www.nytimes.com/email NYTimes.com 620 Eighth Ave. New York, NY 10018 Copyright 2011 The New York Times Company -- Alfredo FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Airstrikes in Libya. Is it necessary?
I don't know if it is really so easy to say that military action is justified. Is is because the US military needs a new target or because another evil dictator appeared suddenly? Gadhafi introduced Berlusconi into Bunga-Bunga parties. They had a good relationship. Gadhafi obviously made his own laws, but Berlusconi bent and changed the laws of his country to avoid his persecution, too. Is the one evil and the other good? Both think they are somehow above the law. Basically what happens in Lybia is a civil war. Should the world intervene in a civil war? There are other countries that suffer a civil war or a dictatorship, for example Belarus, Chechnya, North Korea, or Burma. In these cases the world does not intervene. Of course Gadhafi is a special case, and apparently he has started a war against his own people. Therefore the military actions is maybe justified. The question is why did the response of the international community take so long? No one cared about his weird behavior so far. Now it looks a bit like the world cares only if the oil supply is in danger or if the economy is threatened. Who rules really behind the scenes? -J. - Original Message - From: Patrick Reilly To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2011 11:29 PM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Airstrikes in Libya. Is it necessary? This is one of the few times that I support US military action. I have no doubt that our government will screw-up the endgame, of course. FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Airstrikes in Libya. Is it necessary?
All questions about necessity are of an if, then form. If we want to stop a military offensive aimed at the Libyan people, is it necessary to open Pandora's Box, ?... well, yes. Did you have a different if in mind? Eric P.S. By we I surprisingly mean France and Britain, it is nice to have the US not the primary force behind a military action for once. On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 04:55 PM, Alfredo Covaleda alfredocoval...@gmail.com wrote: Is it necessary to open Pandora's Box? -- Forwarded message -- From: NYTimes.com News Alert # Date: 2011/3/19 Subject: News Alert: U.S. Joins Airstrikes in Libya Against Qaddafi Forces To: # Breaking News Alert The New York Times Sat, March 19, 2011 -- 4:07 PM ET - U.S. Joins Airstrikes in Libya Against Qaddafi Forces The United States confirmed on Saturday afternoon that it had joined airstrikes in Libya. The action by European, American and Arab leaders to stop Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi's attacks on the Libyan opposition is the largest international military intervention in the Arab world since the invasion of Iraq. Read More: http://www.nytimes.com?emc=na About This E-Mail You received this message because you are signed up to receive breaking news alerts from NYTimes.com. To unsubscribe, change your e-mail address or to sign up for daily headlines or other newsletters, go to: http://www.nytimes.com/email NYTimes.com 620 Eighth Ave. New York, NY 10018 Copyright 2011 The New York Times Company -- Alfredo FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org Eric Charles Professional Student and Assistant Professor of Psychology Penn State University Altoona, PA 16601 FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Airstrikes in Libya. Is it necessary?
That box done been opened over 50 years ago, Sent from my iPhone On Mar 19, 2011, at 16:21, ERIC P. CHARLES e...@psu.edu wrote: All questions about necessity are of an if, then form. If we want to stop a military offensive aimed at the Libyan people, is it necessary to open Pandora's Box, ?... well, yes. Did you have a different if in mind? Eric P.S. By we I surprisingly mean France and Britain, it is nice to have the US not the primary force behind a military action for once. On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 04:55 PM, Alfredo Covaleda alfredocoval...@gmail.com wrote: Is it necessary to open Pandora's Box? -- Forwarded message -- From: NYTimes.com News Alert nytdir...@nytimes.com Date: 2011/3/19 Subject: News Alert: U.S. Joins Airstrikes in Libya Against Qaddafi Forces To: alfredocoval...@aim.com Breaking News Alert The New York Times Sat, March 19, 2011 -- 4:07 PM ET - U.S. Joins Airstrikes in Libya Against Qaddafi Forces The United States confirmed on Saturday afternoon that it had joined airstrikes in Libya. The action by European, American and Arab leaders to stop Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi's attacks on the Libyan opposition is the largest international military intervention in the Arab world since the invasion of Iraq. Read More: http://www.nytimes.com?emc=na About This E-Mail You received this message because you are signed up to receive breaking news alerts from NYTimes.com. To unsubscribe, change your e-mail address or to sign up for daily headlines or other newsletters, go to: http://www.nytimes.com/email NYTimes.com 620 Eighth Ave. New York, NY 10018 Copyright 2011 The New York Times Company -- Alfredo FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org Eric Charles Professional Student and Assistant Professor of Psychology Penn State University Altoona, PA 16601 FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
