Re: [Megillot] Chocolate the the DSS
Biblical Taliban (I hope you know Pashto) are indeed in the need of such a kinder-chocolade not to get conditioned by the consensual Opium fields in the yard of the Madrasah. And, as is known, it protects against the dreaded DSS diarrhoea, result of a contamination of the texts with loc. 51, better known as area fifty-one. _Dierk - Original Message - From: Joe Zias To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; g-megillot@McMaster.ca Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 4:04 PM Subject: [Megillot] Chocolate the the DSS Jim West brought my attention on todays blog to the upcoming exhibition on the DSS under the title Pimping the DSS Scrolls through chocolate (see blurb below) Whereas Southern Californians are not known for their good taste (sic) this latest marketing ploy may amaze a few however I've long maintained that the DSS are the poor mans ATM, need a few bucks, a grant, 'fame' and fortune, become a overnight DSS scholar. I'm serious. No matter what you write, you will find a publisher, a producer, can't find an expert, well there's always www.craigslist.com What I find hilarious is that the chocolate is supposed to mimic flavors of the region, seems no one minding the store is aware that that chocolate is a New World product and those flavors from the IL sabra cactus, well folks, the plant was imported from Mexico by the Palestinians in the 19th century for fencing. This reminds me of the Essene Bread, which is sold in the US, from a recipe evidently contained in the writings of the community, no one ever told them it appears that 'man does not live by bread alone' as we recently found evidence of beef tape worm in the latrines from Locus 51. Joe Zias Chuao Chocolatier has partnered with San Diego Natural History Museum to create an exclusive chocolate assortment inspired by the Museum's highly anticipated exhibition, Dead Sea Scrolls. The assortment is called Flavors of the Region, the region being the Middle East where the scrolls were discovered. Each box contains nine bonbons in three unique flavor. .
Re: [Megillot] Qumran cemetery, once again...
Joe, are you indeed still living in the year of the Lord 1992 or before that you are absolutely not familiar with the actual Essene research since R. Bergmeier, J. Frey et al? We simply do not speak of Essene anymore since 1993 - it is simply not that simple as the famous Jesuits once have thought. And btw - your strange making of male from 'oversized' female bones and the mathematical extrapolation out of almost nothing, exclusively to reach a proto-monastery, is not that much amusing for European scholars like e.g. H.-J. Fabry et al. Please try tor read Stegemann / Frey_Qumran kontrovers 2003 Paderborn to experience a more up-to-date stage of research. On R. Bergmeier_ Die Essenerberichte des Josephus, Kampen 1993 I have not yet seen a serious counterstatement since the failed attempt by S. Mason a few years later. Nested German sentences are indeed not that easy to be understood as Dick, Tom and Harry perhaps might think. Thanks in advance. _Dierk - Original Message - From: Joe Zias To: g-megillot@mcmaster.ca Sent: Friday, August 11, 2007 5:24 PM Subject: [Megillot] Qumran cemetery, once again... [snip] My interest is simply whether or not the site was inhabited by an all male community such as the Essenes which from an anthro. perspective, I would argue is clear. Joe Zias Joe Zias www.joezias.com Anthropology/Paleopathology
Re: [Megillot] Satan and Belial
In 11Q15, 4 (PAM 43.895, not 42.895) ? Hard to say, really. Could be both. _Dierk - // - - Original Message - From: Jeffrey B. Gibson To: Dierk van den Berg Cc: g-megillot Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 4:26 PM Subject: Re: [Megillot] Satan and Belial Dierk van den Berg wrote: First of all, totally different from what is assumed here, both terms in question, Satan as well as Belial are, among others, used in the DSS to describe the figurative evil, yet with emphasis on the latter term. But to add insult to injury, 11Q11 col. 4 (PAM 42.985) mentions both Belial and Satan in one and the same context. Is satan used there as a proper name or is it a common noun? Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon) 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. Chicago, Illinois e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Megillot] Satan and Belial Offline
Generally speaking, it is alrteady a technical term. And this term is not used by the Yahad !!! You are dealing, thus, with Satan-terminology of the long-living predecessor sect of the mxhqq, IMO the philosophical root of the Essenes in Josephus et par. _Dierk - Original Message - From: Jeffrey B. Gibson To: Dierk van den Berg Cc: Suter, David ; g-megillot Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 4:45 PM Subject: Re: [Megillot] Satan and Belial Offline Dierk van den Berg wrote: That's humbug, David. Sorry to say that.cf. 1Q28b, I.8; 4Q213,1.17; 4Q 504 frg 2, 4.12; 11Q05,19.15 and 11Q11, 4.12 on 'Satan'. I think you are attributing to David things I said. In any case, I ask again, is satan a name or a common noun in these texts? Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon) 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. Chicago, Illinois e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Megillot] Melki-resha
Melki-resha is the futuristic counterpart to Melki-tsedeq in the angelic judgement in the 10th Enochic Apocalypse of Weeks, the last jobel period, the 490 yrs epoch of a Deca-Jubilee following Judgement Day for all mankind, an event announced by an authoritative-mosaic herald (De 18.18; Wise: the ToR) in 11Q Melki-tsedeq. _Dierk --- // -- - Original Message - From: Jeffrey B. Gibson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: g-megillot g-megillot@mcmaster.ca Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 7:14 AM Subject: [Megillot] Melki-resha Can anyone here tell me who Melki-Resha (cf 4Q Berakot) is? Jeffrey
[Megillot] Re: Megillot] Qumran, The hard evidence/ Milik's claim of excavating the skeleton of John the Baptist
Q-17 as part of the de Vaux excavation 1953 (anthropological diagnosed by Kurth) remained undiagnosed, ad hoc as well as in situ - the hortative paraffin block, as mute as Kubrick' fallen monolith, and who actually wants to make a remote diagnosis some two generations thereafter, here and now; so it's perhaps indeed 'clear as day' - clear as spring day in the rainforests of Ruanda. Concerning Mr. Feather's excursus on 'Milik's thoughts' I recall any romanticizing idealization of the own claimed religious past and its already idealized mystic leaders without historicity as easily leading to a total loss of credibility, not only in the world of the historians, but multidisciplinary as well. While one ought to respect and know the history of the ancient peoples - one ought to understand it in its proper historical context in order to draw true value from history. Dreamland had always been the last hideaway of the shaman in us, but in fact, we are no chosen day-dreamers, at least hopefully not. _Dierk RU Nijmegen, NL --- kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185) *all living is pervaded by the taste of death* [Momentum of Shiite al-Mahdi Messianism]
Re: [Megillot] clay and scrolls
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: g-megillot@mcmaster.ca Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 5:45 PM Subject: Re: [Megillot] clay and scrolls On 8 Mar 2007 at 8:52, Søren Holst wrote: Dave Washburn wrote: [snip] But then it turns around and notes that the jars came from different places, and it appears that it just sort of automatically jumps from that to the idea that if the jars came from different places, then the scrolls may have, too. It seems to me that the simpler explanation would be that a scroll-producing group bought jars from different places and put their scrolls in them. Alternately, if the jars and the scrolls are from various places, then it seems unlikely that we have a breakaway community with a scriptorium making scrolls to put in the jars. I don't see how we can have it both ways. But my main problem was what appeared to be an automatic leap from diverse-source jars to diverse-sources scrolls therein. I don't see any good reason to make that leap. Does that clear it up? Dave Washburn Bash the ground until bananas come out. --- A jar is well-defined not by the clay but by the potter! A scroll-producing group (a kind of anachronistic Megillot Inc ?) that hides material without leaving a single snippet in the production facility, well, that was already part of the Essenes hypothesis of the deceased Hartmut Stegemann, a backward orientated cargo-cult hypothesis (Johann Maier) dead as a dodo since long, for it still took the literary refs. to the Essenes - versus Roland Bergmeier's investigations of the early 1990s - for literal per se, viz for historical in toto. Unfortunately, Stegenmann's hypothesis offers absolutely no argument to deal with the two clearly to be decided social (tooth-)classes within the 1953er Collectio Kurth identified by Olav Roehrer-Ertl in 2000 (Pustet; cf. Brill publication 2006). _Dierk _ RU Nijmegen, NL --- kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185) *all living is pervaded by the taste of death* [Momentum of Shiite al-Mahdi Messianism]
Re: [Megillot] FW: Decoding the DSS
It really isn't outside the realm of possibility is it that if scrolls are being produced jars are also being produced at the same location to store them in? No Jim - for that would be utmost unproductive, not only in the narrower party-political sense. Let's put it this way, 'the exile' in the 'Wilderness of Nations' is simply not to be located in e.g. Juergen Zangenberg's 'paradisiac mercantile vicinity' (2003) of the Dead Sea in the 2nd and 1st c. BC - only that is of certain importance here, I believe. _Dierk _‹(•¿•)›_ RU Nijmegen, NL --- kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185) *all living is pervaded by the taste of death* [Momentum of Shiite al-Mahdi Messianism] ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
RE: [Megillot] R. Arav review of Y. Hirschfeld, Qumran in Context
[quote:] Rami Arav reviewed Yizhar Hirschfeld, Qumran in Context: Reassessing theArchaeological Evidence (2004) in AJS [Association of Jewish Studies] Review29.2 (2005) 373-6. [snip] And (also p. 375):"Placing Qumran in the context of Herodian estates would place the DSS out of context--and indeed this is what they are in this book! [end quote] First of all - as all interested should know in the meantime - the location has no distinct relation to the scrolls, of course disregarding the known, forced "written evidence"-based constructions of the past. Moreover, the context of the younger texts, reflecting the present of the yachad, esp. the pesharim, explicitely refer to the eve of the Herodian Kingship - the chance to criticize this relatively new position in a scholarly environmentwas indeed given on Ian's Scrolls Forum a year ago in the thread on Hyrcanos II as (high questionable) ToR. Sorry if most of the subscribed scholars simply failed to participated in Greg Doudna's ingenuity on Mr. Hyrcan... See it as an ultimatepromise, Stephen - the days of the oldengrafted 2nd c. BCE senarios are gone, for stillborn - simply because of their natural lack of integration ability into the religio-political continuity of exiled rests that revert' during the whole 2nd Temple period. _dierk
Re: [Megillot] Philo on Sadducees and Pharisees??
recurrences are always unimpressive. tot ziens _Dierk - Original Message - From: Stephen Goranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 12:33 PM Subject: [Megillot] Philo on Sadducees and Pharisees?? Here's a heuristic exercise, for those open to it. From such people comments are welcome, especially on g-megillot (this is also posted to the reopened ane list, in part to remind DSS scholars of g-megillot list). G-megillot info page: http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot As is well known, Philo wrote about Essenes in three extant works, but his extant works do not include the names Sadducees or Pharisees. But is it possible that, in one work that is quite favorable to Essenes, Philo shared an Essene view of certain rulers, viewed quite unfavorably, who were influenced by Sadducees and Pharisees? In Every Good Man is Free, Philo discusses this Stoic saying. In section 74 he praises varioius groups in which deeds are held in higher esteem than words. This is the reading by F.H. Colson in Loeb Philo IX p.52.1; compare his Preface and Introduction and the praise on the volume and specifically on this reading by A.D. Nock in Classical Studies 1943. Philo names Magi and Gymnosophists. Strabo, influenced by Posidonius, also brought up Magi and Gymnosophists in his Geography section on Jews 16.2.34f; this text is explicitly negative on Alexander Jannaeus; would that Strabo's longer book, History,were fully extant, with its mentions of Essenes, partly used by Josephus, e.g. Ant. 13; see JJS 1994, 295-8. Then Philo (75) brings up Essenes in Palestinian Syria. He praises them in several sections. Recall, that from the Qumran Essene point of view, the Wicked Priest is a High Priest, a Hasmonean. 4QNpesherNahum, as many of us think, and as brilliantly supported and extended by J. VanderKam in the E. Tov and A. Saldarini Festschriften and in his 2004 High Priests book, Alexander Jannaeus appears as a Lion who killed his own people, and Pharisees appear as Seekers of Smooth Things/Flattery, a pun against Pharisee Halakha. Pharisees are also called Ephraim; an individual or a group can have two nanes in Qumran texts. E.g., the Lion can also be the Wicked Priest. The following is Colson's Loeb translation of sections 88-91. Two types of rulers are discussed, both quite disapproved by Philo here and by Essenes. Can you tell which type sounds more like the Essene view of Sadducee-influenced rulers and which the Essene view of Pharisee-influenced rulers? Such are the athletes of virtue produced by a philosophy free from the pedantry of Greek wordiness, a philosophy which sets its pupils to practice themselves in laudable actions, by which the liberty which can never be enslaved is firmly established. Here we have a proof. Many are the potentates who at various occasions have raised themselves to power over the country. They differed both in nature and the line of conduct which they followed. Some of them carried their zest for outdoing wild beasts in ferocity to the point of savagery. They left no form of cruelty untried. They slaughtered their subjects wholesale, or like cooks carved them piecemeal and limb from limb whilst still alive, and did not stay their hands till justice who surveys human affairs visited them withthe same calamities. Others transformed this wild frenzy into another kind of viciousness. Their conduct showed intense bitterness, but they talked with calmness, though the mask of their milder language failed to conceal their rancorous disposition. They fawned like venomous hounds yet wrought evils irremediable and left behind them throughout the cities the unforgettable sufferings of their victims as monuments of their impiety and inhumanity. Yet none of these, neither the extremely ferocious nor the deep-eyed treacherous dissemblers, were able to lay a charge againts this congregation of Essenes or holy ones [osion] here described In this very partisan account, (young?) Philo shared an Essene point of view, and he may here reflect Essene views on Sadducee- and Pharisee-influenced Hasmoneans, including Alexander Jannaeus, the Qumran-view Wicked Priest. best, Stephen Goranson ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] Absalom, brother of Jannaeus (pesher Habakkuk v 9)
Would be a surprise if the term house of X would refer to the founder Absalom of the houseof Absalom. More likely, the founder antedates any reference to his house. _Dierk - Original Message - From: Dierk van den Berg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stephen Goranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 9:27 PM Subject: Re: [Megillot] Absalom, brother of Jannaeus (pesher Habakkuk v 9) Would be a surprise if the term house of X would refer to the founder Absalom of the houseof Absalom. More likely, the founder antedates any reference to his house. _Dierk - Original Message - From: Stephen Goranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: g-megillot@McMaster.ca Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 12:25 PM Subject: [Megillot] Absalom, brother of Jannaeus (pesher Habakkuk v 9) Let me renew my request for bibliography (if it exists) in which it is asserted with confidence that Absalom, Jannaeus' brother, was the one mentioned in pesher Habakkuk v 9. It's a bit curious that this may not have been asserted earlier, though some of the reasons are apparent in retrospect. While one cannot claim absolute certainty, the available evidence and the context strongly indicate that he was that Absalom who was silent and did not help the teacher of righteousness (Judah the Essene) when aggrieved by the wicked priest Jannaeus (and, if he is a separate individual, unlikely in this pesher, the Liar). Brownlee in BASOR 1948 claimed that Absalom referred to David's son symbolically; but this Absalom was not rebelling, much less against his father, but acquiescing, just as Josephus describes him in both War and Antiquities. Absalom was not a common name, but it was repeated among Hasmoneans. Tal Ilan's fine Lexicon of Jewish Names in Late Antiquity (2002) provides the details. She also argues that Yannai was clearly from Yonathan; and she provides attested double sigma Greek spellings of Joshua, from the same Hebrew letters, in reverse order, as the Hebrew source of the Greek name Essaioi/Ossaioi. Queen Alexandra, according to Talmud (bBer. 48a), had a brother, but his name, Shimon ben Shetah, was not Absalom. Unlike the Hasmonean Absalom use for the brother of Jannaeus, no evidence suggests she had a brother Absalom. Nikos Kokkinos in Herodian Dynasty (1998) has detailed genealogical discussion and a family tree--Herod married the greatgrandaughter of our Absalom. D.N. Freedman in BASOR 1949 provided an article claiming that Absalom was a contemporary individual in history, and would provide a good time peg for the scrolls, but missed the match. Similarly, Paul Winter, wrote that the pHab reference was Non-Allegorical (PEQ 1959 38-46). Bilha Nitzan gives a useful survey on House of Absalom in Encyclopedia of the DSS (2000). Books by Brownlee, Delcor, Elliger, Nitzan, Horgan and others give useful commentary and bibliography. It is becoming clearer that Yannai was the wicked priest, and that his surviving brother, Absalom, was silent and did not help the teacher of righteousness, Judah the Essene. best, Stephen Goranson ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] Yannai suffering; ergon nomou
Under constitutional law, 'wickedness of an allegedly Yehoiarib King-Priest is doubtlessly given by quite other reasons, namely acc to the Davidic orientatated kingship without any priestly authority - a dogmatic pillar of the DSS, if memory serves. _Dierk - Original Message - From: Stephen Goranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: g-megillot@McMaster.ca Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 2:45 PM Subject: [Megillot] Yannai suffering; ergon nomou The Qumran wicked priest--Yannai--was said to suffer, according to Qumran mss, from his life of wickedness (cruelty, drunkenness, impurity, robbery...), and from his countrymen, and from foreigners. No Qumran sentence known to me explicitly says he was killed by foreigners; nor by his countrymen; nor killed twice; but suffered variously and died once. Did he suffer from foreigners (and countrymen)? M. H. Segal, seeing that Yannai was wicked priest (JBL 1951), thought so, citing Josephus Antiquities 13.375f: Then he engaged in battle with Obedas, the king of the Arabs, and falling into an ambush in a rough and difficult region, he was pushed by a multitude of camels into a deep ravine near Garada, a village of Gaulanis, and barely escaped with his own life, and fleeing from there, came to Jerusalem. But when the nation attacked him upon his misfortune, he made war on it and within six years slew no fewer than fifty thousand Jews. And so when he urged them to make an end of their hostility toward him, they only hated him the more on account of what had happened. And when he asked what he ought to do and what they wanted of him, they all cried out, 'to die'; [cf. 4Q448] and they sent to Demetrius Akairos [cf. 4QpesherNahum], asking him to come to their assistance. (Josephus also claimed that Alexander Jannaeus told his wife to offer his corpse to the Pharisees. On the relation of this story to 4QpNahum, see VanderKam, High Priests, p. 330f.) Paul, reportedly a former Pharisee, read Habakkuk differently than the Essene writer of 1QpesherHabakkuk whose 'osey hatorah had faith in Judah, the teacher of righteousness. Sadducees, reportedly accepting neither named angels nor resurrection, were quite unlikely to become Nazarenes (later Christians) nor bring those teachings. Among the very small minority of Jews who did become Christians, conversations about observance of torah, evidently continued, mutatis mutandis, between former Pharisees and former Essenes. best, Stephen Goranson ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] called by the name of truth (1QpHab)
Recognizing Yannai as the wicked priest and Judah the Essene (doer of torah) as the teacher of righteousness will help us better understanding the roots of what is later called in Greek heresy in the newly-added (attested to my knowledge only post 70 CE) negative sense and what is likewise (attested post 70) called in Hebrew in the newly-added negative sense minut. As historian I have to reject the above idea in good Joe Zias fashion as unhistorical, for unprofessional. Though it is doubtlessly possible to construct such a subhistory, part of a fictive subculture that is based upon inductive argumentation reflecting one-sided written evidence, but only within the world of the dilettantes, and in so far the apologist as well as his party might be dismissed. I'm sorry to state this, really. _Dierk ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] VanderKam on 4Q448
- Original Message - From: Stephen Goranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; g-megillot@McMaster.ca Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 12:47 PM Subject: [Megillot] VanderKam on 4Q448 [snip] I suggest it is time to focus on the chronology of wicked priest Alexander Jannaeus and teacher of righteousness Judah the Essene. best, Stephen Goranson Just a reminder. With exception of dismissed day dreamers nobody in scholarship is (or should ever be) focused on anything, for that is the privilege of the preachers. _Dierk ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] the teacher and the high priest?
No - it's just an inductive argument, first made by Stegemann, if memory serves. _Dierk - Original Message - From: Stephen Goranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: g-megillot@McMaster.ca Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 6:57 PM Subject: [Megillot] the teacher and the high priest? It has sometimes been stated that the teacher of righteousness had either served as the high priest or had expected to be named the high priest. Is there good reason to state that? best, Stephen Goranson ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] falsifying methodology; 3 cases; etc.
First of all, a paradoxographical seer-figure as integral part of a collection of anecdotes is just an interchangeable symbol, a political message without the need for any historicity. _Dierk - Original Message - From: Stephen Goranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: g-megillot@McMaster.ca Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 9:21 PM Subject: Re: [Megillot] falsifying methodology; 3 cases; etc. Russell, you have misrepresented my views especially in what I consider to be the support for them and possibilities for falsifying, so I doubt whether dialogue with you on such unreliable basis was much promise. best, Stephen Goranson ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] pesharim typo, Jannaeus
There is no such evidence at all for a WP Jannaias mentioned below !!! However, we might read Alexander in the the way he was minted: YEHONATAN THE HIGH PRIEST And that is quite similar to the framing two YEHOHANAN THE HIGH PRIEST (make your decision which one is meant) In so far James Davila is dismissed for the typo. _Dierk - Original Message - From: Stephen Goranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: g-megillot@McMaster.ca Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 4:22 PM Subject: [Megillot] pesharim typo, Jannaeus James Davila's lecture summary on pesharim http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/divinity/pesharim.html makes several good observations; a typo in the second historical allusion section may be worth noting. For Alexander Hyrcanus read Alexander Jannaeus. This may be worth noting because evidence has increased that he was the wicked priest. For instance, many of the other proposed candidates are too early or too late. best, Stephen Goranson ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] Jonah in the DSS
Guiseppe, I've just clarified that both quotations do NOT belong to the DSS corpus. And it is indeed misleading to intrude cross-refs of material from abroad, so that a starter might believe that Jonah quotations are present even if there are none. DSS - Dead Sea Scrolls (material exclusively of cave 1-11 from Kh. Qumran) _Dierk - Original Message - From: Giuseppe Regalzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: g-megillot@McMaster.ca Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 2:25 PM Subject: Re: [Megillot] Jonah in the DSS Dierk van den Berg wrote: One might add that MurXII and 8HevXIIgr have nothing to do with the DSS. Scrolls from both Wadi Murabba`at and Nahal Hever are included in the _The Dead Sea Scrolls on Microfiche_, in _The Dead Sea Scroll's Catalogue_ by Reed, and so on. Perhaps Jeffrey B. Gibson meant DSS in the narrower (equally legitimate) sense of Qumran Scrolls, but even in this case there was nothing wrong, IMHO, in giving two more references that someone else, maybe, could find of interest. Giuseppe - Giuseppe Regalzi, PhD Rome, Italy [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://regalzi.port5.com/ http://www.orientalisti.net/ ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] Neil Altman on Qumran, Toronto Star
Epiphanius' half-witted Panarion is not even a tertiary source for a serious approach to the historicity of the DSS. Personally I have not enough sitzfleisch to deal with his obscure 'faces', amalgamated with a will that is doubtlessly off one's trolley and wholly bent on multiplication and ubiquity of the demon of heresy. _Dierk - Original Message - From: Stephen Goranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:16 PM Subject: [Megillot] Neil Altman on Qumran, Toronto Star Neil Altman, Who Wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls? in the 19 Feb, Toronto Star http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer? pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1c=Articlecid=1108595411286call_pageid=97 0599119419 again tries to revive the claim that the Qumran scrolls are medieval, without mentioning evidence that they date to the Second Temple Period. The article explicitly misrepresents texts by Epiphanius. Etc. More details available if interested. best, Stephen Goranson ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] Neil Altman on Qumran, Toronto Star
Epiphanius - important for what? Perhaps for the modern psychoanalysis of demon maniacs but not for history that has left behind the blemish of the medieval demon cult. The bonfires are cold since long, if memory serves. The multitude of groups, the ubiquity of the demon called legion he referred to as heresy, dear Stephen, became manifest exclusively in his fearful head. The more heresies he could identify the better he has felt himself temporarily - today we term the medical phenomenon as paranoia. In easy words: the majority of the heretics in Epiphanius is just a variation of the minority. _Dierk - Original Message - From: Stephen Goranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 3:12 PM Subject: Re: [Megillot] Neil Altman on Qumran, Toronto Star Epiphanius' Panarion is a very important historical source. One need not appreciate him personally or his writing style to see that his confidence that he can refute heretics and his work to learn about various groups and their literature allows him to quote from them and describe them extensively, using many now-lost, hence quite valuable, sources. best, Stephen Goranson Quoting Dierk van den Berg [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Epiphanius' half-witted Panarion is not even a tertiary source for a serious approach to the historicity of the DSS. Personally I have not enough sitzfleisch to deal with his obscure 'faces', amalgamated with a will that is doubtlessly off one's trolley and wholly bent on multiplication and ubiquity of the demon of heresy. _Dierk - Original Message - From: Stephen Goranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:16 PM Subject: [Megillot] Neil Altman on Qumran, Toronto Star Neil Altman, Who Wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls? in the 19 Feb, Toronto Star http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer? pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1c=Articlecid=1108595411286call_pageid=97 0599119419 again tries to revive the claim that the Qumran scrolls are medieval, without mentioning evidence that they date to the Second Temple Period. The article explicitly misrepresents texts by Epiphanius. Etc. More details available if interested. best, Stephen Goranson ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: Epiphanius (was Re: [Megillot] Neil Altman on Qumran, Toronto Star
The monk Epiphanius is notorious not only for his sexist mood but likewise for his terrifying inaccuracies, especially in regard to the classification of groups of the remote past. One should thus avoid any introduction of the guy of the 4th c. CE into a serious DSS research that has to be beyond all conjectures and assumptions. Essene at Kh. Qumran? Well, that is just a classical fairy tale, apparently born in trying to find the roots of the own sitz-im-leben. However, people that know, if ever, only the non-qumranic material were never ever visiting with the site owners!!! Logically, the reverse doesn't impress me much. _Dierk - Original Message - From: Stephen Goranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: g-megillot@McMaster.ca Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 4:19 PM Subject: Epiphanius (was Re: [Megillot] Neil Altman on Qumran, Toronto Star About 20 years ago I wrote that Epiphanius' Panarion was the most important patristic text not yet (not then) fully translated into a modern European language (unless you count Russian); Prof. Elizabeth A. Clark (known as president of AAR, NAPS, etc. etc.) agreed. His account of torah-observing Jewish Ossaioi/Osshnoi is important. As examples of valuable information already recognized in Panarion, consider that it includes: extracts of the gospel of Marcion (Heresy 42.11); the letter of Ptolemy the gnostic (Heresy 33.3-8); Montanist oracles (Heresy 48); writings by Marcellus and his opponent Basil (Heresy 72); long quotations of Methodius writing on resurrection against Origen (Heresy 64); titles of many gnostic books (e.g., Heresy 26.8.1). This list could easily be extended, and further examples will be discussed in the course of this study (p. 16)--that is, my 1990 Duke dissertation. Of course he needs to be read critically, but he is an important source on so- called heresies and minut, certainly relevant to history of Essenes at Qumran and elsewhere. best, Stephen Goranson Quoting Dierk van den Berg [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Epiphanius - important for what? [] ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: Epiphanius (was Re: [Megillot] Neil Altman on Qumran, Toronto Star
For instance, Epiphanius refers to the Nasareans and Nasoreans as though they were separate groups and he refers to distinct groups names Essenes, Jessaeans, and Ossenes, in which the Essenes were an offshoot of the Samaritans. All this in an environment of the War of the Sons of Jacob against the Sons of Esau and their Samaritan allies in the late 2nd c.and early1st c. BCE as well as in the 1st c. CE. That's risible. _Dierk - Original Message - From: Jeffrey B. Gibson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dierk van den Berg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 5:42 PM Subject: Re: Epiphanius (was Re: [Megillot] Neil Altman on Qumran, Toronto Star Dierk van den Berg wrote: The monk Epiphanius is notorious not only for his sexist mood but likewise for his terrifying inaccuracies, especially in regard to the classification of groups of the remote past. I wonder if you'd do us the kindness of providing us with some some specific examples of these inaccuracies? Jeffrey Gibson -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.) 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1 Chicago, IL 60626 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] Jonah in the DSS
Text rests from Jonah are preserved in the Greek fragments of 4Q76 (4QXII/a) and 4Q81 (4Q XII/f). _Dierk - Original Message - From: Jeffrey B. Gibson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: g-megillot@McMaster.ca Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 6:26 PM Subject: [Megillot] Jonah in the DSS Can anyone here tell me what if any reception the Book of Jonah has within the DSS? Is it found among the scrolls? Is there any comment upon it, or use of it within the non biblical material? Thanks in advance. Yours, Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.) 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1 Chicago, IL 60626 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] Jonah in the DSS
To the 2nd part of the inquiry. Different from Maleachi (CD; 5Q10), with whom Jonah shares the stage of infliction (Aaron Schart 1998), Jonah citations are not used in the sectarian material, if memory serves. _Dierk - Original Message - From: Dierk van den Berg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: g-megillot@McMaster.ca Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 6:44 PM Subject: Re: [Megillot] Jonah in the DSS Text rests from Jonah are preserved in the Greek fragments of 4Q76 (4QXII/a) and 4Q81 (4Q XII/f). _Dierk - Original Message - From: Jeffrey B. Gibson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: g-megillot@McMaster.ca Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 6:26 PM Subject: [Megillot] Jonah in the DSS Can anyone here tell me what if any reception the Book of Jonah has within the DSS? Is it found among the scrolls? Is there any comment upon it, or use of it within the non biblical material? Thanks in advance. Yours, Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.) 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1 Chicago, IL 60626 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] Jonah in the DSS
And as a marginal note (for I'm still unsure what you are actually looking for): Jonah language is used in the (hypothetical) Q-logia; its presence among the older non-sectarian material of the DSS (paleographically dated 150-125 BCE) refers back to the Mechoqeq Movement, the precursor of the yahad. And one reason for the absence of a pesher to Jonah might be founded in the unique lack of Israel allusions in the book. _Dierk - Original Message - From: Dierk van den Berg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: g-megillot@McMaster.ca Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 7:10 PM Subject: Re: [Megillot] Jonah in the DSS To the 2nd part of the inquiry. Different from Maleachi (CD; 5Q10), with whom Jonah shares the stage of infliction (Aaron Schart 1998), Jonah citations are not used in the sectarian material, if memory serves. _Dierk - Original Message - From: Dierk van den Berg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: g-megillot@McMaster.ca Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 6:44 PM Subject: Re: [Megillot] Jonah in the DSS Text rests from Jonah are preserved in the Greek fragments of 4Q76 (4QXII/a) and 4Q81 (4Q XII/f). _Dierk - Original Message - From: Jeffrey B. Gibson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: g-megillot@McMaster.ca Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 6:26 PM Subject: [Megillot] Jonah in the DSS Can anyone here tell me what if any reception the Book of Jonah has within the DSS? Is it found among the scrolls? Is there any comment upon it, or use of it within the non biblical material? Thanks in advance. Yours, Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.) 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1 Chicago, IL 60626 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: Epiphanius (was Re: [Megillot] Neil Altman on Qumran, Toronto Star
Jack, naw-tsar' or nay'- tser Acc. to Mt 1.13 on Joseph in 2.23 on Nazareth we probably have to choose 'keepers/guarded ones' that dwelt in the security of Nazaret, were 'guarded ones' like Noah the first Zaddik in his ark- and the unknown prophets in v. 23 were then the 'prophets like Moses' (De 18.18), here: the Mehoqeq and the ToR or their precursors 'in office'. Jessaeans were thus the armed Kids of Bethlehem, followers of a Davidic Messiah of Israel in times of war, e.g the yahad of the DSS in 4QpIsa(a). Although the term 'Jessaean' is doubtlessly no self-designation and hardly a reminiscence of a special Yeshua. NB Branchers sounds somewhat silly, at least for my ears - reminds me of 'brunch' ... _Dierk - Original Message - From: Jack Kilmon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dierk van den Berg [EMAIL PROTECTED]; g-megillot@McMaster.ca Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 10:17 PM Subject: Re: Epiphanius (was Re: [Megillot] Neil Altman on Qumran, Toronto Star First I think it is easy to separate the Jesseans from the Essenes. I considered a relationship between IESSAOI and the Essenes once and rejected it for several reasons, first that Essenes existed before Christians and secondly the Greek orthography does not match. Isaiah 11:1 says: wa'yatsah choter mygeza yeeshay weNETSER meeshereshyaw yeeparah And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stump of Jesse, and a BRANCH shall grow out of his roots. The targum on Isaiah 11:1-10 w'ypwk mlk) mbnwhy dy$y w'm$yx) mbny bnwhy ytrby There shall come forth a king from the sons of Jesse, and a messiah shall grow from the sons of his sons. Branch is NETZER and the followers of Y'shua were called AramNETZERAYA or BRANCHERS which Matthew translated to Greek as Nazoraios (Nazarenes). The proof of this, IMO, is the close juxtaposition of YEESHAY Jesse with NETZER in Isaiah and that Epiphanius (Panarion 29 1, 3-9; 4, 9) reports that the followers of Y'shua were also called IESSAIOI or Jesseans as you have stated. The term NAZARENES does NOT refer to Nazareth. It refers to the BRANCH (Messiah) that will grow from the roots of Jesse. Jesus was the branch whom the Branchers followed. The Egyptian Essenes went by a Greek translation, rather than transliteration, of what I believe is the true source of ESSAIOI/ESSENOI. They were the Therapeutae and the Judean group were the AramaicASAYAH (Healers). As far as Nasareans and Nasoreans, I see a general confusion among all of the patristics on this issue which is well treated by Ray Pritz in Nazarene Jewish Christianity. (Magness Press, Hebrew University, 1988, 1992) Jack Kilmon San Marcos, Texas - Original Message - From: Dierk van den Berg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: g-megillot@McMaster.ca Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 10:51 AM Subject: Re: Epiphanius (was Re: [Megillot] Neil Altman on Qumran, Toronto Star For instance, Epiphanius refers to the Nasareans and Nasoreans as though they were separate groups and he refers to distinct groups names Essenes, Jessaeans, and Ossenes, in which the Essenes were an offshoot of the Samaritans. All this in an environment of the War of the Sons of Jacob against the Sons of Esau and their Samaritan allies in the late 2nd c.and early1st c. BCE as well as in the 1st c. CE. That's risible. _Dierk - Original Message - From: Jeffrey B. Gibson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dierk van den Berg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 5:42 PM Subject: Re: Epiphanius (was Re: [Megillot] Neil Altman on Qumran, Toronto Star Dierk van den Berg wrote: The monk Epiphanius is notorious not only for his sexist mood but likewise for his terrifying inaccuracies, especially in regard to the classification of groups of the remote past. I wonder if you'd do us the kindness of providing us with some some specific examples of these inaccuracies? Jeffrey Gibson -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.) 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1 Chicago, IL 60626 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] Jonah in the DSS
One might add that MurXII and 8HevXIIgr have nothing to do with the DSS. It is as I've already said: The book of Jonah is not used by the yahad - but by the precursor that run parallel under different names only to end up in the Q-logia as part of the Gospels. No signs of Jonah is given to the generations of the yahad. And I guess if Niniveh is ever mentioned in the corpus beside 2Q33 frg. 2. _Dierk - Original Message - From: Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Giuseppe Regalzi [EMAIL PROTECTED]; g-megillot@McMaster.ca Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 11:46 PM Subject: Re: [Megillot] Jonah in the DSS Giuseppe, It doesn't because Study Edition at 1QH 7:5 treads [] [ ][...] Andrew - Original Message - From: Giuseppe Regalzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: g-megillot@McMaster.ca Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 1:12 PM Subject: Re: [Megillot] Jonah in the DSS Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote: Can anyone here tell me what if any reception the Book of Jonah has within the DSS? Is it found among the scrolls? Is there any comment upon it, or use of it within the non biblical material? Yes, the Book of Jonah is found among the Scrolls: 4QXIIa (150-125 BCE), cols. V-VII: contains Jonah 1:1-5.7-10.15-2:1.7; 3:2; 4QXIIf (ca. 50 BCE), cols. I-II: contains Jonah 1:6-8.10-16; 4QXIIg (last third of I cent. BCE), frgs. 76-91i: contains Jonah 1:1-9; 2:3-3:3; 4:5-11; MurXII (ca. 130 CE), cols. X-XI: contains the whole book (with lacunae). There is also a Greek translation (the so-called Kaige recension) of Jonah: 8HevXIIgr (50 BCE - 50 CE?), cols. II-III: contains Jonah 1:14-2:7; 3:2-5.7-4:2.5. As far as I know, there is no Pesher Yonah, nor any direct citation or paraphrase of the Book among the non-biblical texts; but in 1QH 7:5 you can find a clear reminiscence of Jonah chap. 1 + 4:8 in the words )WNYH BZ(P XRY$YT. Hope this helps, Giuseppe - Giuseppe Regalzi, PhD Rome, Italy [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://regalzi.port5.com/ http://www.orientalisti.net/ ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] Fwd: [ANE] Qumran
Dear list members, We have just vague trends towards preferences of N-S orientation for males and E-W orientation for females on the exc. barrows of Kh. Qumran. Much later Bedouins were doubtlessly Muslims; hard to believe that they would have ever shared grave-fellowship with unbelievers.Contemporary Bedouins were local Jewish nomads, shepherds in general, perhaps Rechabite potters in special. Due to the fact that hitherto excavated specimens exclusively belong to the Arabia Petraea type (Roehrer-Ertl 2000), the chances for immigrants from e.g. Jerusalem or the coastal region, thus for an open religious community at Kh. Qumran, are equal to zero in the moment. _Dierk - Original Message - From: Stephen Goranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: g-megillot@McMaster.ca Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 6:13 PM Subject: [Megillot] Fwd: [ANE] Qumran I forward the following from ane-list, in case it is of interest here. That lsit maintains an open archive at http://listhost.uchicago.edu/pipermail/ane I thank the list owners of g-megillot and ane for maintaining open archives. best, Stephen Goranson - Forwarded message from Stephen Goranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:05:56 -0500 From: Stephen Goranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ANE] Qumran To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank you, Joe Zias, for helping to clarify the data from the Qumran cemetery. Your Dead Sea Discoveries 7 (2000) 220-253 article is a fine contribution to learning on this subject. Now, if I understand corectly--and perhaps I do not; we await publication--in addition to your research, we now have, or soon will have, more data from the Y. Magen, Y. Peleg, Y. Nagar et al. Qumran excavation. You wrote that they excavated some Qumran cemetery burials. And that in each case--lets say, for conversation's sake, nine, then reinterred--the physical anthropologist Y. Nagar determined that each North-South burial was a single, ancient, adult, male. And that each East-West burial was a later, Bedouin, burial. *If* that turns out to be the case, then it would provide strong evidence favoring your DSD article thesis, in my opinion. Someone impertinently wrote that the bones did not have the name Essene on them. Yet the name Essenes does appear in some of the Qumran manuscripts, found in the Dead Sea northwest shore area, just as C. D. Ginsburg in 1870 read Pliny. Of course, Essenes does not appear in the scrolls in English, nor in any of the many Greek spellings, including Ossaioi, but in the Hebrew original self-designation, recognized by several scholars before 1948 (bibliography on request) and by several scholars after 1948: 'osey hatorah, observers of torah, a self-designation that some other sects, unlike some Stoic philosophers, naturally refused to use for them. best, Stephen Goranson - End forwarded message - ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] Bergmeier zeroxes
Andy, I have Photoshop 7.0and Acrobat 6.0 on my notebook, and Iraqi sand from the desert inside *g* However, please send me the material when the problemof opening the .jpgs remains; it should be no big deal to reproduce the article asperfect pdf file. _Dierk - Original Message - From: Jim West To: Andy Cc: g-megillot@McMaster.ca Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 8:45 PM Subject: Re: [Megillot] Bergmeier zeroxes At 02:37 PM 1/11/2005, you wrote: Aaron sent the Bergmeier zeroxes, but they arrived in .jpg format, which Windows can't open. Be patient!AndyP.S. If anyone else received them and successfully opened them, please advise.Andy you should be able to open them through your internet browser if you dont have some sort of photo software. Open your browser and then use it's "open" function under "file".Jim Jim West, ThD "Critics are like eunuchs; they know what's supposed to happen, they just can't do it themselves" -- S. Kierkegaard http://web.infoave.net/~jwest Biblical Studies Resources
[Megillot] Eisenman et al.: parallel lives without interaction?
Dear List, Do we know of any thematic altercation between the religio-politcal groups of the Zealot Sons of Phinehas and the Zadokite Sons of Zadoq in their war of power? If we know of no such interaction, which is, as is generally known, inevitable between well-defined social groups that share the same geographical presence, then please try to speak out thrice the following - without any luxation of the facial musculature: The 'Community' behind the Dead Sea Scrolls acted parallel to the Zealots. tot ziens, _Dierk ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] scanning the article
J. Frey and H. Stegemann (eds.)_Qumran kontrovers_Beiträge zur den Textfundenvom Toten Meer, Bonifatius, Paderborn 2003, ISBN 3-89710-205-6, ~16 Euro. cf. http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il/resources/bib/language/German.shtmlon Frey's article. Prof. S. Goranson holds a copy of the book, perhaps he knows more onits availability. _Dierk - Original Message - From: Andy To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 5:52 PM Subject: [Megillot] scanning the article I'd be glas to. Where's the article? Andy
Re: [Megillot] p. 25 of the Mason article
Seemingly a transcription error made by Acrobat Distiller. Already corrected. Please d/l anew. And inform me if there are even more transcription errors in the text. I'm in a hurry in the moment. Sorry. And a crafted MS-Word copy of the article would take some time, I think. _Dierk - Original Message - From: Andy To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 6:25 PM Subject: [Megillot] p. 25 of the Mason article There is a paragraph and a half mistakenly set in SPIonic that should be in English. I haven't tried yet to save it as a Word file and reset the text. But as a whole the product is a big improvement over the part one edition, Dierk, which required the reader to set every Greek passage into SPIonic himself. Or maybe I converted it to a Word file wrong (I saved it as a .txt file and converted to Word). Andy PS I guess you're saying you want me to scrounge up the Frey essay and scan it and send it to the list?
[Megillot] OLM: S. G. Sheridan et al._The French Collection (2003)
ANTHROPOLOGICAL ANALYSIS OF THE HUMAN REMAINS FROM KHIRBET QUMRAN: THE FRENCH COLLECTION by Susan Guise SHERIDAN, Jaime ULLINGER and Jeremy RAMP in: The Archaeology of Qumran, Vol. II. J-B Humbert, OP and J. Gunneweg, eds. Presses Universitaires de Fribourg, Suisse and the École Biblique et Archéologique Française, 2003, pp. 133-173. [.pdf] http://www.nd.edu/~qumran/JBHQumran.pdf [worth reading; brief comparative study of all collections: http://www.nd.edu/~qumran/pubs.html] _Dierk ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] OLM: O. Roehrer-Ertl_Collectio Kurth (2000)
[Archaeology - Anthropology] COLLECTIO KURTH: Catalogue of official findings from the Qumran cemeteries Olav-Roehrer-Ertl's Homepage; last update 3/2004 http://www.primatology.de/de/anthropologie/qumran/index.html [on resexing and differentiation of the ad-hoc; cf. J. Zangenberg vs. J. Zias in 12/2000 on Orion-list] _Dierk ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] anachronisms not; etc.
Stephen, J. Frey and H. Stegemann (Ed.)_Qumran kontrovers_Beiträge zur den Textfunden vom Toten Meer, Bonifatius, Paderborn 2003. The fact that Stegemann has edited an article by Bergmeier*, directly followed by a refutation by J. Frey**, which quite obviously turns into a kind of support for Bergmeier reveals the intention behind - to make the best out of a bad job. Bergmeier, as you know, was already literary buried in early 1994, his work removed from the book market in perpetuity. He was indeed the Giordano Bruno of his time, burnt at the stake of ignorance, sacrificed to the Essene world view of the early 90s. However, somebody has let risen the schoolteacher again - probably thought as vanguard auxiliary (B. never rejected Essenes a priori) in the upcoming confrontation on basic axioms. * The historical value of the Essene reports in Philo and Josephus, pp.11-22 ** On the historical analysis of the ancient Essene reports, pp.23-56 _Dierk - Original Message - From: Stephen Goranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: g-megillot@McMaster.ca Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 1:54 PM Subject: [Megillot] anachronisms not; etc. Dierk, do you have the citation of the article unclearly described as involving Stegemann, Bruno, and Bergmeier? ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] anachronisms not; etc.; typo +
Please read advancement instead of forthcoming. When reading some nested sentences in Bergmeier's Essene Reports in Josephus I had seemingly the German fortkommen in mind. Sorry. We're still living in Babylon. Catchword foreign language: I doubt that Steve Mason* has fully understood Bergmeier's German, so that his refutation hardly provides a proper basis for Anglophone readers interested in the subject matter. A similar phenomenon occured a few weeks ago in a discourse with Greg Doudna on Hyrcan II in Stegemann's known Essenes, Qumran, John the Baptist and Jesus - what we read in English slightly differs from the German original. Normally this is no big problem, but when a pythagorizing source turns into a Pythagorean source and pythagorizing Essenes into Essene Pythagoreans things go wrong. * S. Mason_What Josephus Says about the Essenes in his Judean War_ Part One (Orion Archive) _Dierk - Original Message - From: Dierk van den Berg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: g-megillot@McMaster.ca Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [Megillot] anachronisms not; etc. - Original Message - From: Stephen Goranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: g-megillot@McMaster.ca Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [Megillot] anachronisms not; etc. Dierk, Thanks for clarifying what you meant. I bought and still have R. Bergmeier's book, and read it and read every available review, and Duke library owns it too; and I have _Qumran kontrovers_ checked out and at home. I didn't notice any burning at the stake of ignorance, Giordano Bruno-like, or otherwise. Not in Qumran kontrovers 2003, Stephen, but in the days after the release of Die Essenerberichte des Flavius Josephus 1993 in the Netherlands (sic!).Wasn't it you who has always pointed to Bergmeier's retreat from the own arguments, thus his further irrelevance for the forthcoming of the Essene research, already a decade ago on Qumran-Bet? But as you can see: there was no such retreat ( B. didn't even chance a yota of his arguments), merely a muzzle from above and a book that soon had to fade away from the market, simply because it wasn't conform to the contemporary understanding of Essene historicity and - as a result - to the historicity of Stegemann's Essene Union (a fairy tale as we know today). _Dierk ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] L30 Tables
- Original Message - From: Jack Kilmon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dierk van den Berg [EMAIL PROTECTED]; g-megillot@McMaster.ca Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 1:52 PM Subject: Re: [Megillot] L30 Tables [...] The benches and tables are reconstructed and on display. [...] @Jack, Ed, Do you have a URL of the table/bank collection # 967-971 from KhQ loc. 30? Thanks in advance. _Dierk ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] Qumran history (brief replies To R. Gmirkin)
- Original Message - From: Stephen Goranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: g-megillot@McMaster.ca Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 8:13 PM Subject: [Megillot] Qumran history (brief replies To R. Gmirkin) [...] P.S. Y. Hirschfeld p. 161 n. 222 claims J. Zangenberg (2000) systematically refuted the claims of Zias (2000). But Zangenberg had not yet read Zias (2000) when he wrote his (2000); rather he responded to an earlier oral presentation. ___ A confusion by Hirschfeld. Actually Roehrer-Ertl Rohrhirsch (2001) are meant instead of Zangenberg. Archaeology is the theme, or more precise: a strange archaeology that is based upon archaeological and written evidence (Moss 1998; cf. Magness) _Dierk ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] Qumran history (brief replies To R. Gmirkin)
Well, Stephen, then Zangenberg has already done with Zias in the meantime. I've thought the battle would last somewhat longer - what a bummer! _Dierk - Original Message - From: Stephen Goranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dierk van den Berg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 10:03 PM Subject: Re: [Megillot] Qumran history (brief replies To R. Gmirkin) Dierk, the word in the text I cited, the new book by Y.H., page 161, note 222, is indeed refuted. S. Goranson Quoting Dierk van den Berg [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Even more worse, for Zangenberg was indeed meant. Hirschfeld_ QUMRAN IN THE SECOND TEMPLE PERIOD, Reassessing the Archaeological Evidence, LA 52 (202), p 277 # 92. Zias (2000) claims that the graves in the southernmost extension that have an east-west orientation are recent Bedouin graves. Zangenberg (2000b) refutes his claims one by one. No past tense (refuted) as Stephen argued, but an ongoing and apparently not yet finished process of refutation of Zias by Zangenberg is meant. Roehrer-Ertl Rohrhirsch (2001) run parallel to this. _Dierk ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
[Megillot] Online Material: Stephen J. Pfann in: NapaPaper 1997/2002
The Multi-layered Stratigraphy of Qumran and the Dead Sea Scrolls by Stephen J. Pfann ASoOR Meetings at Napa, California (1997) rev. 2002 [.pdf] http://www.uhl.ac/Napa/NapaPaper.pdf [De te fabula narratur!] _dierk ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] L30 Tables
Has anybody pictures of art. no.(#) 967-971 of KhQ loc.30 ? Special interest in table # 970, which is not of type # 967 (# 969). Thanks in advance. _Dierk ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] Qumran history, again
Let me add this: Neither Posidonius nor Posidonius in Strabo Geo. 7.3.3-5 are to be called "Essene sources" - again the dissimilar similitude, herein the "life-without-woman" of the Temple-founding Dakae that reminds of the "sine ulla femina" in Pliny nat.hist. 5.73 and the corresponding parallels Bell 2.120f.,160f. and Philo contempl 18. Cf. R. Bergmeier, Essene Reports in Josephus_ Kampen (NL) 1993, pp.81-82 tot ziens, _Dierk
Re: [Megillot] L30 Tables
- Original Message - From: Dave Washburn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: g-megillot@McMaster.ca Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 2:53 AM Subject: Re: [Megillot] L30 Tables [...] If calculation is a scribal activity then I'd suppose that two of the three tables (# 967, # 969) were used for writing. Could you expand on this a bit, including sources where photos etc. of the items in question might be found? I'm particularly interested in how you conclude that these two items were used for calculation? [snip] Thanks, -- Dave Washburn # 967 and # 969 (of type 967) are those tables, which are identified as Essene tables by H. Stegemann - allegedly their breadth would fit that of a typical scroll. If their breadth is correct stated, well, then these tables would otherwise fit only for a children's birthday party or perhaps for snow-white and the seven dwarfs but not for a horde of hungry adults. Fact is, I have not yet seen a single picture of the # 967-972 table collection of KhQ loc.30. However, o find all objects and coins (last updatate: 2002): http://www1.ku-eichstaett.de/KTF/qumran/eng/search.htm then click on to the database SEARCH at the bottom of the page and the rest is more ore less self-explanatory, e.g. Qumran Loci Nr [12] (the rest blank) leads to the stuff of KhQ loc.12, i.e. two coins, a sewing needle (frag. bronze), a bronze blade (frag), a cup, a dish and two pithoi with their object numbers. Please tell me, if we have a better database elsewhere. _Dierk ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] L30 Tables; calculation
O- I've missed to answer the calculation Well, the agricultural branch office is apparently the only workable alternative to a scroll factory. Now I don't know if you have seen the movie clip that I've uploaded earlier, for the clip deals in detail with Zangenberg's Qumran - a possible agricultural demesne (I had too much traffic, that's why I got a farewell from the free server). _Dierk ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] Qumran history, again
- Original Message - From: Jack Kilmon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jim West [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: g-megillot@McMaster.ca Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 11:02 PM Subject: Re: [Megillot] Qumran history, again The Essene Gate did lead to something...the Bethso (Latrines) which the Essenes were required to use in accordance to Dt. 23:13 with Miq'vaot on the return path. The gate was cut through the existing structure in the Roman period and 30-50 Essene kohanym were supposed to have beem living in the SW corner of the city. I think Pixner's article was convincing. The hypothesis of the existence of an Essene quarter in Jerusalem is hardly more than a very tempting probability (P. Pixner, Quarter, p.247). And ...some random excavations... have brought to light baths that resemble (sic!) in many ways those of Qumran (p.271). What does such an resemblance actually prove? Nothing! _Dierk ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
[Megillot] Books: Qumran controversial 2003
Those interested in a more up-to-date controversy on Essenism, authorship of the DSS, halacha in the DSS and the archaeology of Chirbet Qumran should read the low-priced book (~15 EUR; 200 pages) ed. by J. Frey and H. Stegemann_Qumran kontrovers_Beiträge zur den Textfunden vom Toten Meer, Bonifatius, Paderborn 2003. Inter alia articles by R. Bergmeier and F. Rohrhirsch. Worth reading. _Dierk ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] J. Post on Qumran (problematic)
Philip wrote: So I guess we are more or less on the same mind. Also about the dangers of excessive confidence. One small step in the wrong direction can take you far from the destination even if thereafter you walk in a straight line. Scholarship is surely about retracing checking, changing tack, consulting the map. etc. Philip, I'd like to point to a disposition to put parts of modeling on hold whenever they leave the mark as if they are forced incorporated into the model. Example: Zealots did not criticize the yahad nor vice versa. For their covenant structure is different, as well as their militancy, we have to assume that both parties did not act time-shared. Consequence of such a consideration is the end of the time slice given for the yahad by the dawn of the Zealot Movement in 4 BCE - the decent rebuilding of Qumran might then refer to new inhabitants there. And that could be the end of all 1st c. CE hypotheses [NB John the Essaioi as a native of Essa would then be cogent]. _Dierk ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] J. Post on Qumran (problematic)
- Original Message - From: philip davies [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 9:17 AM Subject: Re: [Megillot] J. Post on Qumran (problematic) The key problem is, and always has been, the connection between site and scrolls. We have a few pieces of evidence in favour: 1. inkwells (this is to keep Stephen happy) 2. leather tabs from cave 8 3. Pliny Philip, here a variation of the theme: 1. usual tools of a branch office, part of a perfume production facility and/ or date and/or balsam plantage - herein belongs the flushing bassins (?; German: Schlemmbecken) for the fine clave, suggested already earlier by Zangenberg and others as well as a fair chance for a smithy. 2. uncertain; was cave 8 in fact sealed? and if not - what does a tab actually prove? 3. Pliny's Natural History is a nice work with touristy ambitions, without being qualified for historical authenticity; cf. Bob Kraft's article on Essenes and Jews in Pliny, DSD 8/2001 (to be uploaded if required). I think the all-important question is: how did the yahad understand the term exile. It's hardly enough to camp in paramilitary fashion in the neighbor's garden to call such a protest action exile into the wilderness of nations - for neither is the garden wild per se, nor is the neighbor an alien, his garden abroad. Please think twice please... Not by chance I've referred to the Isaiah-Trail doctrine (Is 40.3) of the apparently widespread Threat Song against Assur-roadmap (Is 10.5-12.6) to the exile of the rest that returns. Be that as it may, we are contemporary witnesses of the first true schism in the DSS research. All I can see in the moment is a retreat of the old mother faction on all sides - but this could be a mere temporary phenomenon. However, I do not share Zangenberg's excessive optimism _Dierk ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] Jonathan: 4Q448
Marginal note. The identified light at the end of the Essene tunnel might be the incoming 'Wizard of Oz' intercity train ... On the other hand, the political relation between the robust staff-movement (as one of the sources behind all literay Essenism) and the Herodian establisment of the 1st c. BC/CE is still unexplored - or should I say: not yet realized, although the Essene cubit in the Herodian Temple architecture is already known to us since a couple of years. _Dierk ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] Jonathan: 4Q448, 4Q523, recent bibliography?
- Original Message - From: Stephen Goranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 1:55 PM Subject: [Megillot] Jonathan: 4Q448, 4Q523, recent bibliography? [snip] Posidonius and Strabo, sources on Essenes, considered Alexander, explicitly named, as notably superstitious and tyrannical. And the Teacher, Judah, arising an estimated 390 years plus 20 (Damascus ms) after the end of Babylonian captivity fits these texts. Dear Stephen, Actually you mean Theophanes of Mytilene, the biographer of Pompey instead of Poseidonius (likewise known to Strabo) - here in connection with the reference in Strabo on typical, predestined, local tyrants of Syro-Palestinian (Geographica xvi 40.1). Poseidonioius, partly criticized by Strabo due to own misinterpretation (Geo vii.3.3-4), deals exclusively with temple founding Thracians that live without women. That he calls those celibate as specific pious is absurd, therefore this passage is usually understood as a temporary austereness (from sex). However, this life without woman actually sounds like the sine ulla femine in Pliny, Nat Hist 5.73 and the corresponding parallels in Jos Bell 2.120f., 160f. and Philo contempl 18. To determine the Getae-Pythagoras-Artemis Temple triangle (if we include Pausanias viii.13 loc. cit.) a source on Essenes is, if you will pardon the experession, apparently just a helpless exaggeration to present the inexistent, viz Essenes that are more than literary fiction of an Aritotelean ideal of the vita contemplativa of the philosopher as pious theoretikos. Puech in RQ 1996 and DJD XXV published 4Q523, with mention of Jonathan, and ? Gallikah or ?Glakous or... (any possible IDs for that?...cf Bat Gallim in 4QpIsa a ??). Puech argued for the earlier Jonathan, but both 4Q448 and 4Q523 may quite well both refer to the Jannai Jonathan. What earlier Jonathan? Jonathan/Jannai = Yehonatan ; Hyrcan = Yehohanan. There is, vs E. Puech, no other Jonathan the King to be extracted from 4Q448 than Alexander Jannai, the King. (I am aware of proposals to read the Lion as gentile; I don't need more bibliography on that, thanks.) Are there more recent studies or notable reviews 4Q448 and 4Q523 besides the above-mentioned? Thanks. NB Revalue the actual historicity of the World-History of Nikolaos of Damascos - this will directly lead to a decisive shift in the historical sitz-im-leben of alleged events in the decades of the 1st c. BC in question. _Dierk ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] Misdating scrolls (I. Young article)
[snip] Calling on early Qumran deposit is not only a deus ex machina but one undefined: Ian Young does not investigate whether the Doudna/ Ian Hutchesson dating has made any credible claim, has any merit, can really toss out paleography, archaeology, C14, says that's outside the bounds of the article. Not so, since that deposit time does not work. Ian slights the fact that a 73/4 end date does not date the mss--how much older are they? Paleography suggests 1st BC dates, hence a difference of tradition, not chronology. After some ten iteration loops since the 90s I tend to doubt the common learning aptitude: The Hutchessson 'dead end' is as dead as a dead man actually can be, for it, like other scenarios that end up with 63 BC, is unable to explain e.g. the decisive role of horsearchers in 1QM and the later insertion of col. 1.5-9, a hymn that refers to a contemporary decisive battle of the 'Kittim' with outstanding importance for the specific Judaism behind the scrolls. Indeed, basic knowledge of the military history of both Parthia and Armenia is to be presupposed, a least a reading of W.W. Tarn_Hellenistic Military Naval Developments, Chicago 1984 and N.C. Debevoise_A Political History of Parthia_New York 1968. -Dierk ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Re: [Megillot] Redating the Dead Sea Scroll Deposits
4. Note that one of the critics of this asking the question of evidence for Period II scroll deposits, Stephen Goranson, holds that the inhabitants at the end of Qumran Period II were probably different than the inhabitants at the end of Qumran Period Ib, probably? It would be impossible by political means for Period 1b participants/descendents to act parallel to Zealots of Period II without criticizing the latter in one way or the other. But because there is no such criticism at all in the younger texts, it should be clear that the former didn't exist parallel to the latter. In easy words: Period 1b did not end with the harmless earthquake hypothesis of de Vaux, but in one of Herod the Great's bloody raids of the 30s to annihilate the armed political opposition. - Dierk ___ g-Megillot mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
[Megillot] The movement of the mechoqeq
I'm working on an investigation of the movement of the mechoqeq, esp. the further being ofthis 'party of the blind' after the conflict of Torah revelation and the to be expected split caused by the moreh ha-tsedeq Any help would be appreciated. Dierk---Katholieke Universiteit Nijmegen (NL)www.kun.nl The son of Telamon, sweeping in through the mass of the fightersstruck him at close quarters through the brazen cheeks of his helmet...and the brain ran from the wound along the spear by the eye-hole... (Iliad 17.193-98)
