[gentoo-user] Re: OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Grant Edwards]

On 2023-10-17, Mark Knecht  wrote:

> I have 4 Ubuntu-based machines here and over the last 6 years I've
> never seen a 1 minute delay to login, much less 5 minutes.

I see it all the time. Two minutes is the most common delay that I run
into, but I've seen longer. The two-minute delay I frequently run into
has usually got something to do with networking. For example, if one
of the links is down, Ubuntu is really fond of waiting a couple
mintues for it to come up before it finishes booting. [If it doesn't
wait for all the network interfaces, how is it going to do all that
cloudy crap nobody really wants?]

People have been complaining about that one for years and years and
years. There have been countless web pages written about it with
almost as many different answers/suggestions.  Here's a recent one:

https://devicetests.com/fix-waiting-for-network-configuration-error-ubuntu-startup

The really fun part is that since the methods used for configuring the
network on Ubuntu change with the seasons, 95% of the suggested fixes
you find are irrelevent even if they were on-target at one point.

I've run into various other (less common) causes of Ubuntu boot
delays, but it's usually waiting for "network configuration".

And then there are the delays during shutdown...

And how about the stupid #@$% "modem manager" that mucks with serial
ports looking for dial-up modems. Yea, that still needs to be
installed and enabled by default on every Ubuntu install on the
planet...

--
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Oct 2023 13:54:47 -0500, Dale wrote:
>
>> I just realized, my new rig will almost certainly be efi.  I kinda dread
>> that.  At least it is well documented tho.  Should be easy enough.  I
>> hope.  o_O
> EFI is much simpler to work with. for one thing, you don't need the
> monster that GRUB has become.
>
>


While I kinda dread it, it does seem that quite a while ago, it has
become much easier.  I noticed as I went through the install of Gentoo,
there didn't seem to be a lot of stuff to do with efi.  One might could
think it is quicker and simpler as you say.  I recall when it first came
out.  It was complicated but I think most of that was because it was new
and the documentation was not quite there yet.  After all this time tho,
that shouldn't be a problem. 

It's a bridge I'll have to cross tho.  It looks easy enough.  Biggest
thing is partitioning the drive differently.  Gotta remember that.  O_O 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Dale]

Mark Knecht wrote:
>
> > This wasn't the kernel.  It was doing something else.  I googled for
> it and others had the same issue but I never found where there was a
> fix.  Odd thing is, it didn't do it every time.  Just most of the
> time.  When I was having network problems, it added a few more wait
> times.  Once it took about 5 minutes from grub to a login prompt.
> >
>
> I get that the installation is gone so we'll likely never know what
> happened but that said I would have thought sudo dmesg after a login
> would have probably shown if something weird was holding up giving you
> a login opportunity.
>
> Strange to me that you didn't investigate it. 
>
> I have 4 Ubuntu-based machines here and over the last 6 years I've
> never seen a 1 minute delay to login, much less 5 minutes. 
>
> When I look in the kernel ring buffer on my desktop machine I see most
> everything done in 14 seconds from power-on. After that there are some
> delays on the order of 90 seconds for a wireless network I don't
> actually use much to be authenticated, and then a few apparmor
> comments out around 5 minutes, but none of that impairs normal login.
>
> I think you are better off running Gentoo. You do you, right? 
>
> I hope the new setup works well for you. 
>
> - Mark
>


I recall it said it was waiting on something.  I can't for the life of
me remember what it was tho.  I did look at dmesg but didn't see
anything.  Of course, I wasn't real sure what to look for either.  I
think it was looking for something that wasn't there yet.  Looked at to
much puter stuff to remember now.  :/

Yep.  I started to do this to begin with.  I kinda wanted to see what
Ubuntu was like.  Now I know.  It would be OK for a temporary setup.  I
don't think I'd like it long term tho. 

If I get some files renamed later on, I may try to do a backup and see
if everything works, speed etc.  About out of steam. 

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Mark Knecht]

> This wasn't the kernel.  It was doing something else.  I googled for it
and others had the same issue but I never found where there was a fix.  Odd
thing is, it didn't do it every time.  Just most of the time.  When I was
having network problems, it added a few more wait times.  Once it took
about 5 minutes from grub to a login prompt.
>

I get that the installation is gone so we'll likely never know what
happened but that said I would have thought sudo dmesg after a login would
have probably shown if something weird was holding up giving you a login
opportunity.

Strange to me that you didn't investigate it.

I have 4 Ubuntu-based machines here and over the last 6 years I've never
seen a 1 minute delay to login, much less 5 minutes.

When I look in the kernel ring buffer on my desktop machine I see most
everything done in 14 seconds from power-on. After that there are some
delays on the order of 90 seconds for a wireless network I don't actually
use much to be authenticated, and then a few apparmor comments out around 5
minutes, but none of that impairs normal login.

I think you are better off running Gentoo. You do you, right?

I hope the new setup works well for you.

- Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Oct 2023 11:41:23 -0500, Dale wrote:
>
 Neil, I tired that command journalctl but not sure about the
 options. It either returned a lot or nothing related.  I'll make
 note of the systemctl command.  If Ubuntu survives, I may need it
 one day.  ;-)   
>>> If it returned nothing with  -p err, nothing logged an error since the
>>> last boot, which is odd considering something is broken. without -p
>>> err, you get everything from the system log, it's like doing "cat
>>> /var/log/messages" but only since the last reboot. You could pipe that
>>> through grep, searching for the name of your network interface.
>> Well, I didn't search for err.  I followed some other advice I found
>> while searching.
> Adding -p err means you only see error messages sent to the system log,
> skipping the reams of info stuff. I always run "journalctl -b -p err"
> after booting a new kernel, it tells me instantly if I've made a screw up.
>
> Of course, if I screw up really badly, the thing doesn't even boot...

I wish I had that info then.  It may have proved helpful.  To be honest
tho, when it failed the first time and I banged on it pretty good, I
thought the BIOS messed up.  It wouldn't see anything network except in
that one place where it showed disabled.  It was weird. 

I recall when I installed Gentoo for the very first time, first kernel
did the panic thing.  I got back to where I could fix it and rebooted
into a new kernel.  It booted.  Ever since then, even tho I have bad
luck with so much other stuff, I don't recall having a kernel fail to
boot the first time.  I may have to go add some driver for some trivial
thing but it gives me a login so I can work without booting rescue CD,
mounting, chrooting and all that.   Now if everything else would work
that good.  ROFL 

Thanks for the help.  I'm happy now. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Dale]

Mark Knecht wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 11:07 AM Dale  > wrote:
> >
> > Mark Knecht wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 9:41 AM Dale  > wrote:
> > 
> > >
> > > Well, the 770T now has Gentoo on it.  As usual, my fresh built kernel
> > > booted the very first time without error and every thing worked.
> > > Sometimes, things go right.  ROFL  I have to say tho, I wish they
> would
> > > split the install docs into two parts.  One for old BIOS and one
> for the
> > > efi thingy.  It was confusing in a couple places but I got there. 
> Maybe
> > > some color coding would help???
> > >
> > 
> >
> > Congrats. I hope it goes well.
> >
> > There are still times I wish I was running Gentoo - the documentation,
> > camaraderie and deep technical knowledge of the group, but I just
> > don't have time or patience to iron out issues with applications when
> > Gentoo isn't a supported distro. Still, for something like a NAS box it
> > makes sense if everything you run is sour\ce code coming from the
> > Gentoo code stores.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> > Ubuntu had a few points where it waited for a while.  A couple
> times, it had a two minute wait which makes the boot time pretty long.
>
> I suspect that's a bit of a red herring. Ubuntu's default kernel
> builds support for pretty much everything in the Linux hardware
> universe so there's a lot of probing around for hardware you don't
> have and then a whole lot of modules once you're up and running. My
> desktop machine has 115 modules showing up in lsmod. If you put a
> little bit of time into your kernel development then I suspect the
> boot time would become much closer to what you see on Gentoo.
>
> After all, the kernel is the kernel. It doesn't belong to Gentoo or
> Ubuntu. We're all running, more or less, the same kernel source code
> and I suspect, by the time it gets to machine code, pretty much the
> same bits for identical hardware.
>
> None the less I'm happy you're up and running.


This wasn't the kernel.  It was doing something else.  I googled for it
and others had the same issue but I never found where there was a fix. 
Odd thing is, it didn't do it every time.  Just most of the time.  When
I was having network problems, it added a few more wait times.  Once it
took about 5 minutes from grub to a login prompt. 

Yea, binary distros that come with their own kernels, they throw in the
kitchen sink, bath tub and likely even a toilet.  If you have hardware
that it doesn't recognize, you got a problem.  It could be the correct
driver doesn't even exist if it is something really new. 

There is pluses for Ubuntu but there are minuses too.  Ubuntu installs
in mere minutes.  Gentoo takes a couple hours at least.  Ubuntu updates
are really fast, no compiling, but also difficult to customize since no
USE flags.  Gentoo takes a while but you can build exactly what you want
with USE flags.  What is a plus or minus depends on the person I guess. 
Some people just want it to come on and go to fakebook and could care
less about anything else, including updates until fakebook doesn't work
anymore.  ;-)

Yea, I'm glad I got Gentoo on it too.  I can use tools I'm used to and
hopefully it will be rock solid.  I'm thinking I may only update once a
month.  After all, there isn't a whole lot installed anyway. 

Thanks to all.  :-D

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Neil Bothwick]

On Tue, 17 Oct 2023 11:41:23 -0500, Dale wrote:

> >> Neil, I tired that command journalctl but not sure about the
> >> options. It either returned a lot or nothing related.  I'll make
> >> note of the systemctl command.  If Ubuntu survives, I may need it
> >> one day.  ;-)   
> > If it returned nothing with  -p err, nothing logged an error since the
> > last boot, which is odd considering something is broken. without -p
> > err, you get everything from the system log, it's like doing "cat
> > /var/log/messages" but only since the last reboot. You could pipe that
> > through grep, searching for the name of your network interface.

> Well, I didn't search for err.  I followed some other advice I found
> while searching.

Adding -p err means you only see error messages sent to the system log,
skipping the reams of info stuff. I always run "journalctl -b -p err"
after booting a new kernel, it tells me instantly if I've made a screw up.

Of course, if I screw up really badly, the thing doesn't even boot...

-- 
Neil Bothwick

I am Zaphod of Borg. Now, where's the coolest place to be assimilated...


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Neil Bothwick]

On Tue, 17 Oct 2023 13:54:47 -0500, Dale wrote:

> I just realized, my new rig will almost certainly be efi.  I kinda dread
> that.  At least it is well documented tho.  Should be easy enough.  I
> hope.  o_O

EFI is much simpler to work with. for one thing, you don't need the
monster that GRUB has become.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

"Do you reply to our surveys.?"
[X]Never [ ]Always [ ]Sometimes


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Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Mark Knecht]

On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 11:07 AM Dale  wrote:
>
> Mark Knecht wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 9:41 AM Dale  wrote:
> 
> >
> > Well, the 770T now has Gentoo on it.  As usual, my fresh built kernel
> > booted the very first time without error and every thing worked.
> > Sometimes, things go right.  ROFL  I have to say tho, I wish they would
> > split the install docs into two parts.  One for old BIOS and one for the
> > efi thingy.  It was confusing in a couple places but I got there.  Maybe
> > some color coding would help???
> >
> 
>
> Congrats. I hope it goes well.
>
> There are still times I wish I was running Gentoo - the documentation,
> camaraderie and deep technical knowledge of the group, but I just
> don't have time or patience to iron out issues with applications when
> Gentoo isn't a supported distro. Still, for something like a NAS box it
> makes sense if everything you run is sour\ce code coming from the
> Gentoo code stores.
>
> Cheers,
> Mark
>
>
>
> Ubuntu had a few points where it waited for a while.  A couple times, it
had a two minute wait which makes the boot time pretty long.

I suspect that's a bit of a red herring. Ubuntu's default kernel builds
support for pretty much everything in the Linux hardware universe so
there's a lot of probing around for hardware you don't have and then a
whole lot of modules once you're up and running. My desktop machine has 115
modules showing up in lsmod. If you put a little bit of time into your
kernel development then I suspect the boot time would become much closer to
what you see on Gentoo.

After all, the kernel is the kernel. It doesn't belong to Gentoo or Ubuntu.
We're all running, more or less, the same kernel source code and I suspect,
by the time it gets to machine code, pretty much the same bits for
identical hardware.

None the less I'm happy you're up and running.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Dale]

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2023-10-17, Dale  wrote:
>
>> I to find Gentoo to be much better documented. There were places where
>> the old BIOS and efi info got a little confusing but eventually I
>> figured it out. I been trying to think of a way to color code the docs
>> but I can't figure out a sensible way. You got BIOS and efi, openrc and
>> systemd and several other smaller things that one has to decide on and
>> take different steps. One would run out of colors or the colors
>> themselves would get confusing. I can't think of a better way.
> In theory, a wee bit of CSS and Javascript along with some radio
> buttons would allow the reader to make a few choices and then see
> an installation manual that only shows the relevent sections.
>
> I still miss being able to view the installation manual as a single
> HTML page. I find the "chopped up" format difficult to use: I can't
> easily search for things, and the bit I'm looking for never seems to
> be in the section where I think it's going to be.
>
> --
> Grant

The question is, do they have those tools available for those pages? 
They might, I have no idea.  That would be a good idea.  That way one
could view the whole thing, just certain parts or whatever.  If they
have a way to select several options, that would be good.  Have one spot
to select BIOS or efi.  Another spot to select openrc and systemd. 
Kinda like they do on sites where they help you build a puter.  Select
CPU is usually first, then mobo, then memory and so on.  That number of
options would help the docs a lot. 

I miss that too.  To be honest, I thought about copying each page and
pasting them into a LOo document.  Then I can print it or just view it
as one page.  I've done things like that for other sites as well.  It
also allows me to edit out things I'll never need.  Make it printer
friendly even if the page isn't. 

I just realized, my new rig will almost certainly be efi.  I kinda dread
that.  At least it is well documented tho.  Should be easy enough.  I
hope.  o_O

Dale

:-)  :-) 

[gentoo-user] Re: OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Grant Edwards]

On 2023-10-17, Dale  wrote:

> I to find Gentoo to be much better documented. There were places where
> the old BIOS and efi info got a little confusing but eventually I
> figured it out. I been trying to think of a way to color code the docs
> but I can't figure out a sensible way. You got BIOS and efi, openrc and
> systemd and several other smaller things that one has to decide on and
> take different steps. One would run out of colors or the colors
> themselves would get confusing. I can't think of a better way.

In theory, a wee bit of CSS and Javascript along with some radio
buttons would allow the reader to make a few choices and then see
an installation manual that only shows the relevent sections.

I still miss being able to view the installation manual as a single
HTML page. I find the "chopped up" format difficult to use: I can't
easily search for things, and the bit I'm looking for never seems to
be in the section where I think it's going to be.

--
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Dale]

Mark Knecht wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 9:41 AM Dale  > wrote:
> 
> >
> > Well, the 770T now has Gentoo on it.  As usual, my fresh built kernel
> > booted the very first time without error and every thing worked.
> > Sometimes, things go right.  ROFL  I have to say tho, I wish they would
> > split the install docs into two parts.  One for old BIOS and one for the
> > efi thingy.  It was confusing in a couple places but I got there.  Maybe
> > some color coding would help???
> >
> 
>
> Congrats. I hope it goes well.
>
> There are still times I wish I was running Gentoo - the documentation,
> camaraderie and deep technical knowledge of the group, but I just
> don't have time or patience to iron out issues with applications when
> Gentoo isn't a supported distro. Still, for something like a NAS box it
> makes sense if everything you run is sour\ce code coming from the
> Gentoo code stores.
>
> Cheers,
> Mark


It is basically a base system with nfs, encryption and LVM added.  I'm
not adding a whole lot of stuff.  At this point, it is console only.  I
had the same with Ubuntu.  Since I'll remove the monitor and keyboard
later, all I need is to be able to ssh in when it gets booted up.  It
boots fast too.  Ubuntu had a few points where it waited for a while.  A
couple times, it had a two minute wait which makes the boot time pretty
long.  I think the Gentoo install boots in less than a minute.  It might
be more than a minute but if it is, it isn't by much.  I figure if I hit
the power button and wait 3 minutes, it should be booted and giving me
the evil eye for making it wait.  It's a lot faster than Ubuntu.

I did have a small battle with dracut and getting Grub to see both the
kernel and init thingy.  Once I got that sorted, it went fairly easy. 
Oh, I got to remember to add -1 to make.conf too.  I knew I forgot
something. 

I to find Gentoo to be much better documented.  There were places where
the old BIOS and efi info got a little confusing but eventually I
figured it out.  I been trying to think of a way to color code the docs
but I can't figure out a sensible way.  You got BIOS and efi, openrc and
systemd and several other smaller things that one has to decide on and
take different steps.  One would run out of colors or the colors
themselves would get confusing. I can't think of a better way. 

Anyway, back to working on my fuel drums.  I don't have a lot of energy
today so may not finish.  I didn't finish yesterday either. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Mark Knecht]

On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 9:41 AM Dale  wrote:

>
> Well, the 770T now has Gentoo on it.  As usual, my fresh built kernel
> booted the very first time without error and every thing worked.
> Sometimes, things go right.  ROFL  I have to say tho, I wish they would
> split the install docs into two parts.  One for old BIOS and one for the
> efi thingy.  It was confusing in a couple places but I got there.  Maybe
> some color coding would help???
>


Congrats. I hope it goes well.

There are still times I wish I was running Gentoo - the documentation,
camaraderie and deep technical knowledge of the group, but I just
don't have time or patience to iron out issues with applications when
Gentoo isn't a supported distro. Still, for something like a NAS box it
makes sense if everything you run is sour\ce code coming from the
Gentoo code stores.

Cheers,
Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Oct 2023 19:34:09 -0500, Dale wrote:
>
>> While I'm sure systemd is here to stay, I still have options.  I'm
>> seriously thinking of installing Gentoo on that thing.  At least then if
>> it breaks, I can post a thread that isn't off topic. o_O  I also just
>> put a pretty large CPU cooler on that thing.  Should compile without so
>> much as a mild fever.
> You could have compiled the whole system several times over in the time
> you've been trying to fix this. Even when you do fix it, you'll still
> have an unfamiliar experience. Sticking with what you know is often best,
> unless you treat it as a learning experience.
>

Well, the 770T now has Gentoo on it.  As usual, my fresh built kernel
booted the very first time without error and every thing worked. 
Sometimes, things go right.  ROFL  I have to say tho, I wish they would
split the install docs into two parts.  One for old BIOS and one for the
efi thingy.  It was confusing in a couple places but I got there.  Maybe
some color coding would help???


>> Neil, I tired that command journalctl but not sure about the options. 
>> It either returned a lot or nothing related.  I'll make note of the
>> systemctl command.  If Ubuntu survives, I may need it one day.  ;-) 
> If it returned nothing with  -p err, nothing logged an error since the
> last boot, which is odd considering something is broken. without -p err,
> you get everything from the system log, it's like doing "cat
> /var/log/messages" but only since the last reboot. You could pipe that
> through grep, searching for the name of your network interface.
>
>


Well, I didn't search for err.  I followed some other advice I found
while searching.  It should have found the network device but didn't. 
It's almost like the network was disabled as soon as grub got done.  I
even thought it was disabled in the BIOS somehow but it wasn't when I
checked.  There didn't seem to be any mention of it anywhere except that
one spot that showed it as disabled. It was weird.  I never did find a
solution.  In my case, it just decided to work again.  It is most likely
a bug but given my lack of knowledge on the way Ubuntu works, I have no
idea how to find the root cause. 

Anyway, the thing has Gentoo on it now.  I have not connected my backup
drives yet and mounted them or tried to backup anything.  I got some
fresh stuff to backup as soon as I organize it.  I just got the install
done.  I'll hook the drives up later and do some testing.  Maybe it will
transfer files faster too.  One can hope.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Neil Bothwick]

On Mon, 16 Oct 2023 19:34:09 -0500, Dale wrote:

> While I'm sure systemd is here to stay, I still have options.  I'm
> seriously thinking of installing Gentoo on that thing.  At least then if
> it breaks, I can post a thread that isn't off topic. o_O  I also just
> put a pretty large CPU cooler on that thing.  Should compile without so
> much as a mild fever.

You could have compiled the whole system several times over in the time
you've been trying to fix this. Even when you do fix it, you'll still
have an unfamiliar experience. Sticking with what you know is often best,
unless you treat it as a learning experience.

> Neil, I tired that command journalctl but not sure about the options. 
> It either returned a lot or nothing related.  I'll make note of the
> systemctl command.  If Ubuntu survives, I may need it one day.  ;-) 

If it returned nothing with  -p err, nothing logged an error since the
last boot, which is odd considering something is broken. without -p err,
you get everything from the system log, it's like doing "cat
/var/log/messages" but only since the last reboot. You could pipe that
through grep, searching for the name of your network interface.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Snacktrek, n.:
 The peculiar habit, when searching for a snack, of constantly
 returning to the refrigerator in hopes that something new will have
 materialized.


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