Re: [gentoo-user] [Maybe OT]: Instability of system

[Alan Mackenzie]

On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 19:18:25 +, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> Hello again, Dale.

> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 11:23:14 -0500, Dale wrote:

> > To, OP.  I was hoping you found a solution.  Maybe you will at some
> > point,  You have certainly eliminated a lot of potential causes.  I
> > can't recall if you have or not, have you tried a different version of
> > the kernel?  In the past, I've upgraded to a new kernel and it be
> > buggy.  I go back to a older version until I see a new update then try
> > again.  Generally it works.  Don't know if it was a kernel bug or just
> > some stray code that something didn't like but . . .

> I've been running on my (no longer quite so) new box since about last
> August.  I don't recall crashes from that long ago, though that could be
> to do with my memory.

> I've just configured and build a 4.17.0 kernel (thanks for the
> suggestion!), having previously been running on 4.15.15 for quite some
> time.  Maybe this will help.  We'll see.

I was about to post saying my problem appeared solved.  But not ten
minutes ago, my system hung for the first time with it's 4.17.0 kernel.
:-(

It's annoying, and unsettling, but living with it might be the least
worst option.

> > Dale

> > :-)  :-) 

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Re: [gentoo-user] [Maybe OT]: Instability of system

[Wols Lists]

On 11/06/18 20:11, R0b0t1 wrote:
> AMD is an American company based out of California. However rereading
> the post I notice he is using Euros, in which case there are likely
> even stronger guarantees of fitness for a particular purpose. I
> suppose it doesn't help that the seller seems to have gone bankrupt.

Apologies, but I am lucky to have an excellent memory, and I do get a
bit grumpy sometimes when another poster has either not read or
forgotten information that was mentioned earlier.

As for AMD being American, reading Wikipedia I see they are, but I was
under the impression they were German. (The OP is in Germany despite
their anglo-saxon sounding name.) However, I note that they were in a
joint venture with Siemens, which I guess is where I got that
impression. Maybe (having gone fabless) a lot of their chips are
produced by Siemens in Germany - I don't know.

(And I'm sitting on a system - which I haven't yet managed to boot
successfully - where my supplier too has gone bust :-(

Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] [Maybe OT]: Instability of system

[R0b0t1]

On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 1:16 PM, Wol's lists  wrote:
>
>
> On 11/06/18 16:30, R0b0t1 wrote:
>>
>> Federal law implies a warranty of fitness for a particular purpose*
>> from the seller, not the manufacturer. You can take it up with them.
>> The statute of limitations is 4 years. Make them deal with AMD.
>
>
> Please read the parent post !!!
>
> The seller no longer exists, so that is not an option.
>
> Federal law is irrelevant, as the OP is about 4000 miles outside their
> jurisdiction.
>
> I believe the OP and AMD are the same nationality, and that is nowhere near
> the American continent, let alone the US.
>

My apologies, sir. Sometimes I forget that the United States is not
the only country.

AMD is an American company based out of California. However rereading
the post I notice he is using Euros, in which case there are likely
even stronger guarantees of fitness for a particular purpose. I
suppose it doesn't help that the seller seems to have gone bankrupt.

Cheers,
 R0b0t1

Re: [gentoo-user] [Maybe OT]: Instability of system

[Wol's lists]

On 11/06/18 16:30, R0b0t1 wrote:

Federal law implies a warranty of fitness for a particular purpose*
from the seller, not the manufacturer. You can take it up with them.
The statute of limitations is 4 years. Make them deal with AMD.


Please read the parent post !!!

The seller no longer exists, so that is not an option.

Federal law is irrelevant, as the OP is about 4000 miles outside their 
jurisdiction.


I believe the OP and AMD are the same nationality, and that is nowhere 
near the American continent, let alone the US.


Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] [Maybe OT]: Instability of system

[R0b0t1]

On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 8:48 AM, Mick  wrote:
> On Sunday, 10 June 2018 14:06:22 BST Alan Mackenzie wrote:
>
>> The shop I bouught everything from seems to have gone out of business,
>> with both its telephone number and its website having been down for a
>> sustained period.  So I'm unlikely to be able to get the processor
>> exchanged for an unbuggy one.  Shelling out for a new processor out of my
>> own pocket seems too much of a long shot to justify the money (~400
>> Euros) and the time.
>>
>> So it's looking like I'm not going to be getting the problem fixed any
>> time soon.  :-(
>
> All may not be lost, yet.
>
> Since this is arguably a manufacturing fault of the CPU, you should have some
> consumer rights over it.  Try contacting AMD directly for RMA, as long as it
> is still under the *manufacturer's* warranty and you have your receipt.
>

If at all possible avoid doing the RMA. It seems to take over a month,
time which you are not compensated for.

Federal law implies a warranty of fitness for a particular purpose*
from the seller, not the manufacturer. You can take it up with them.
The statute of limitations is 4 years. Make them deal with AMD.

Cheers,
 R0b0t1


* You generally can't waive this during a transaction, so those
disclaimers in open source licenses are not valid. What is more
important is there was no transfer of money.

Re: [gentoo-user] [Maybe OT]: Instability of system

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hello again, Dale.

On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 11:23:14 -0500, Dale wrote:
> Mick wrote:
> > On Sunday, 10 June 2018 14:06:22 BST Alan Mackenzie wrote:

> >> The shop I bouught everything from seems to have gone out of business,
> >> with both its telephone number and its website having been down for a
> >> sustained period.  So I'm unlikely to be able to get the processor
> >> exchanged for an unbuggy one.  Shelling out for a new processor out of my
> >> own pocket seems too much of a long shot to justify the money (~400
> >> Euros) and the time.

> >> So it's looking like I'm not going to be getting the problem fixed any
> >> time soon.  :-(
> > All may not be lost, yet.

> > Since this is arguably a manufacturing fault of the CPU, you should have 
> > some 
> > consumer rights over it.  Try contacting AMD directly for RMA, as long as 
> > it 
> > is still under the *manufacturer's* warranty and you have your receipt.



> Plus trying to talk to them may lead to them knowing what the problem
> is.  Whether it is mobo or CPU, knowing which one would help.  They may
> have heard of this issue before.

> To, OP.  I was hoping you found a solution.  Maybe you will at some
> point,  You have certainly eliminated a lot of potential causes.  I
> can't recall if you have or not, have you tried a different version of
> the kernel?  In the past, I've upgraded to a new kernel and it be
> buggy.  I go back to a older version until I see a new update then try
> again.  Generally it works.  Don't know if it was a kernel bug or just
> some stray code that something didn't like but . . .

I've been running on my (no longer quite so) new box since about last
August.  I don't recall crashes from that long ago, though that could be
to do with my memory.

I've just configured and build a 4.17.0 kernel (thanks for the
suggestion!), having previously been running on 4.15.15 for quite some
time.  Maybe this will help.  We'll see.

> Dale

> :-)  :-) 

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Re: [gentoo-user] [Maybe OT]: Instability of system

[Dale]

Mick wrote:
> On Sunday, 10 June 2018 14:06:22 BST Alan Mackenzie wrote:
>
>> The shop I bouught everything from seems to have gone out of business,
>> with both its telephone number and its website having been down for a
>> sustained period.  So I'm unlikely to be able to get the processor
>> exchanged for an unbuggy one.  Shelling out for a new processor out of my
>> own pocket seems too much of a long shot to justify the money (~400
>> Euros) and the time.
>>
>> So it's looking like I'm not going to be getting the problem fixed any
>> time soon.  :-(
> All may not be lost, yet.
>
> Since this is arguably a manufacturing fault of the CPU, you should have some 
> consumer rights over it.  Try contacting AMD directly for RMA, as long as it 
> is still under the *manufacturer's* warranty and you have your receipt.
>


Plus trying to talk to them may lead to them knowing what the problem
is.  Whether it is mobo or CPU, knowing which one would help.  They may
have heard of this issue before.

To, OP.  I was hoping you found a solution.  Maybe you will at some
point,  You have certainly eliminated a lot of potential causes.  I
can't recall if you have or not, have you tried a different version of
the kernel?  In the past, I've upgraded to a new kernel and it be
buggy.  I go back to a older version until I see a new update then try
again.  Generally it works.  Don't know if it was a kernel bug or just
some stray code that something didn't like but . . .

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] [Maybe OT]: Instability of system

[Mick]

On Sunday, 10 June 2018 14:06:22 BST Alan Mackenzie wrote:

> The shop I bouught everything from seems to have gone out of business,
> with both its telephone number and its website having been down for a
> sustained period.  So I'm unlikely to be able to get the processor
> exchanged for an unbuggy one.  Shelling out for a new processor out of my
> own pocket seems too much of a long shot to justify the money (~400
> Euros) and the time.
> 
> So it's looking like I'm not going to be getting the problem fixed any
> time soon.  :-(

All may not be lost, yet.

Since this is arguably a manufacturing fault of the CPU, you should have some 
consumer rights over it.  Try contacting AMD directly for RMA, as long as it 
is still under the *manufacturer's* warranty and you have your receipt.

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] [Maybe OT]: Instability of system

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hello, Dale

On Wed, Jun 06, 2018 at 13:51:24 -0500, Dale wrote:
> Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> > Hello, Dale.

> > Sorry for not replying earlier, I've had a rotten week.



> >> Dale


> No problem.  I have my days too.  :/ 

> Did you find the problem and get it fixed?  Just curious. 

I haven't found or fixed the problem, no.  I took the cover off my
machine to check for dust, but there was suspiciously little there (the
machine had been in use for ~9 months at the time).

I was interested to hear that John gets the same problem, with the same
CPU (an early Ryzen 1700X) and the same make of motherboard (an Asus
X370).  When I say "interested", I really mean "disheartened".  It sounds
like a problem with the processor or the motherboard, or (even worse),
the interaction between the two.  It seems the problem only happens when
Linux (not Windows) is running, and I didn't managed to find anything in
the logs, either, with a brief search.

The machine isn't overheating, or anything like that.  Besides, the
crashes happen at random, usually with low machine load, not whilst I'm
building LibreOffice.  It actually rebooted during booting a week or so
ago, and if I recall correctly, none of the kernel's booting messages had
yet appeared on the screen.  That suggests, though vaguely, that the MB
is at fault.

The shop I bouught everything from seems to have gone out of business,
with both its telephone number and its website having been down for a
sustained period.  So I'm unlikely to be able to get the processor
exchanged for an unbuggy one.  Shelling out for a new processor out of my
own pocket seems too much of a long shot to justify the money (~400
Euros) and the time.

So it's looking like I'm not going to be getting the problem fixed any
time soon.  :-(

Thanks to you, and everybody else, for all the help and suggestions.

> Dale

> :-)  :-) 

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Re: [gentoo-user] [Maybe OT]: Instability of system

[Dale]

Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> Hello, Dale.
>
> Sorry for not replying earlier, I've had a rotten week.
>
>
>
>> Dale
>>

No problem.  I have my days too.  :/ 

Did you find the problem and get it fixed?  Just curious. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] [Maybe OT]: Instability of system

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hello, Dale.

Sorry for not replying earlier, I've had a rotten week.

On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 17:35:19 -0500, Dale wrote:
> Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> > Hello, Gentoo.

> > I'm having problems with my machine hanging or rebooting spontaneously.
> > It's doing this, perhaps, every three or four weeks.  I think that when
> > I'm in X, the system usually reboots, when I'm on a tty, it hangs.

> > This phenomenon has, up till now, been just below the level at which
> > it's annoying enough to do something about.  But my machine just hung on
> > me a few minutes ago, and now it's definitely reached tha threshold
> > where spending effort fixing it seems justified.

> > My actual Gentoo installation is fine, in fact, so good that I've not
> > needed to post to the list for a long time.  :-)

> > My system is an AMD Ryzen processor on an Asus Prime X370-Pro mainboard,
> > and is just over a year old.  I don't think my RAM is unstable (though
> > it's been a long time since I've run that RAM checking program).

> > I honestly suspect the firmware on the mainboard.  When it was new, the
> > board was practically unusable - with two sticks of RAM installed, it
> > would crash after about 1 - 3 minutes.  With just one stick of RAM, it
> > stayed up long enough to install new firmware (version 0604), which
> > appeared to be stable.

> > Going back to Asus's firmware page, there appear to have been many
> > subsequent versions of the firmware released during the last year.
> > Would it be a good idea for me to download and attempt to install the
> > latest version?  Is this in any way risky?  (My mains supply is
> > reliable.)

> > Other than that, suggestions as to what to do would be welcome.

> > Thanks!



> This is the type of problem that I hate having.  Intermittent problems
> are hard to diagnose.  Just when you think you got it fixed, it does it
> again.  The post from madscientist has some good info including some
> things I've tried successfully in the past, with other peoples
> computers.  The biggest culprit, dust on fans/heat sinks and sometimes
> heat sinks just falling off of chips.  I've had that happen a few times
> on those south bridge type chips.  Usually they are glued on and after
> several years, they can pop off.  When they get hot, they slow down, a
> lot, to protect themselves but make a computer very slow.  Stick the
> heat sink back on, off it goes again.  Still, dust is a huge problem.  I
> take a air hose to mine at least twice a year, spring time for sure to
> be ready for summer heat. 

I will take the cover off of the case and get rid of dust.  The
machine's only really bin in use since ~August 2017, so I don't expect
there to be all that much dust in it.

> For the static, a finger trigger type spray bottle with water and a
> small amount of fabric softener works well, smells good too.

Each to his own.  ;-)

> I haven't tried dish detergent like madscientist mentioned but if he
> says it works and you don't have fabric softener handy, give it a
> try. 

I think I'd stick to the dish detergent (is that what we call "washing
up liquid" in Britain?).

> As to upgrading firmware.  I have a Gigabyte mobo that has that dual
> BIOS thing.  That said, I've never had to resort to the backup.  The
> updates went smoothly and only took a few minutes.  If ASUS has
> something similar, may want to know how to use it just in case.

I don't think the ASUS has a dual BIOS.  If they did, they'd've
mentioned it in the manual under "UNIQUE FEATURES!!!".

> The biggest thing, not losing power during the update.  As
> madscientist mentioned, a UPS comes in handy there.

The power here in Nuremberg is reliable indeed.  Since I've been in my
current flat (~10 years), I can't remember even a single power cut.
What does happen occasionally (every two or three weeks) is that a
circuit breaker trips when I flick on the wall switch prior to powering
up the machine.  Maybe that's something to do with hitting exactly the
wrong spot of the 50Hz sinusoidal wave.  Again it doesn't bother me too
badly.

> In my experience tho, they have always worked fairly well.  The
> biggest thing, now exactly what steps to take before you start. 
> Mistakes could cause issues. 

Yes.  As I said, I updated the BIOS once before.  I think I'll do so
again, though it seems John has had the same experience as me and has
already tried an upgrade, without much luck.

> You mentioned having problems with having more memory installed.  Was
> the firmware upgrade supposed to fix *that* problem?  In other words, is
> it a known issue that needed a fix?

I don't recall seeing it in ASUS's release notes (which, though better
than AMD's, are nothing to write home about).  I upgraded the BIOS as a
last desperate measure before taking the PC back to the shop.

> I ask because of this.  Could it be that your power supply, regardless
> of what rating it claims, isn't quite up to standards and that little
> extra power causes issues?  It's 

Re: [gentoo-user] [Maybe OT]: Instability of system

[Adam Carter]

>
> > Could be. I bought CPU only a month or so after release.
> > Initially thought it was an enlightenment desktop issue but have
> > reproduced on KDE and xfce. It happens usually when doing something
> > quite simple like clicking on a Window to minimise or just in a
> > terminal. Nothing stressful like an emerge gcc.
> >
> > Never found anything in logs but not sure if there is a better way to
> > capture problem.
> >
> > Its a Ryzen 1700X
> >
> > John
> >
>
> And lo and behold just after writing email I closed claws mail and
> went to open again and machine locked up. Unresponsive to anything and
> it even corrupted some files as had to recreate claws-mail set up.
>
> Slight annoying. It would nice to know if I can capture issue somehow.
>
> Perhaps there is a way.
>
> John (keeping backups up to date)
>
>
You could try running this to see if you've got an early/buggy one. If so,
see if you can return it for a fixed one.
https://github.com/suaefar/ryzen-test

More info;
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Ryzen#Segmentation_faults_during_compilation

Re: [gentoo-user] [Maybe OT]: Instability of system

[jdm]

On Fri, 25 May 2018 05:29:28 +
john  wrote:

> On Thu, 24 May 2018 18:31:35 -0400
> Rich Freeman  wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 7:21 PM john  wrote:  
> > > On Sun, 20 May 2018 23:20:36 +0100
> > > Mick  wrote:
> >   
> > > > On Sunday, 20 May 2018 21:54:32 BST Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > My system is an AMD Ryzen processor on an Asus Prime X370-Pro
> > > > > mainboard, and is just over a year old.
> > > > >
> > > Interesting post.
> > > Just read this and have same issue.
> > > AMD Ryzen
> > > X370 Asus motherboard
> > 
> > 
> > You guys don't have an early CPU with the segfault bug, do you?  I
> > don't know if they ever fully characterized the circumstances that
> > can cause it, but if it can make a compiler segfault, I don't see
> > why it couldn't make a kernel panic.  At least not without knowing
> > more about what actually triggers the bug...
> >   
> 
> Could be. I bought CPU only a month or so after release.
> Initially thought it was an enlightenment desktop issue but have
> reproduced on KDE and xfce. It happens usually when doing something
> quite simple like clicking on a Window to minimise or just in a
> terminal. Nothing stressful like an emerge gcc.
> 
> Never found anything in logs but not sure if there is a better way to
> capture problem.
> 
> Its a Ryzen 1700X
> 
> John
> 

And lo and behold just after writing email I closed claws mail and
went to open again and machine locked up. Unresponsive to anything and
it even corrupted some files as had to recreate claws-mail set up.

Slight annoying. It would nice to know if I can capture issue somehow.

Perhaps there is a way.

John (keeping backups up to date)

Re: [gentoo-user] [Maybe OT]: Instability of system

[john]

On Thu, 24 May 2018 18:31:35 -0400
Rich Freeman  wrote:

> On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 7:21 PM john  wrote:
> > On Sun, 20 May 2018 23:20:36 +0100
> > Mick  wrote:  
> 
> > > On Sunday, 20 May 2018 21:54:32 BST Alan Mackenzie wrote:  
> > > >
> > > > My system is an AMD Ryzen processor on an Asus Prime X370-Pro
> > > > mainboard, and is just over a year old.
> > > >  
> > Interesting post.
> > Just read this and have same issue.
> > AMD Ryzen
> > X370 Asus motherboard  
> 
> 
> You guys don't have an early CPU with the segfault bug, do you?  I
> don't know if they ever fully characterized the circumstances that
> can cause it, but if it can make a compiler segfault, I don't see why
> it couldn't make a kernel panic.  At least not without knowing more
> about what actually triggers the bug...
> 

Could be. I bought CPU only a month or so after release.
Initially thought it was an enlightenment desktop issue but have
reproduced on KDE and xfce. It happens usually when doing something
quite simple like clicking on a Window to minimise or just in a
terminal. Nothing stressful like an emerge gcc.

Never found anything in logs but not sure if there is a better way to
capture problem.

Its a Ryzen 1700X

John

Re: [gentoo-user] [Maybe OT]: Instability of system

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 7:21 PM john  wrote:
> On Sun, 20 May 2018 23:20:36 +0100
> Mick  wrote:

> > On Sunday, 20 May 2018 21:54:32 BST Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> > >
> > > My system is an AMD Ryzen processor on an Asus Prime X370-Pro
> > > mainboard, and is just over a year old.
> > >
> Interesting post.
> Just read this and have same issue.
> AMD Ryzen
> X370 Asus motherboard


You guys don't have an early CPU with the segfault bug, do you?  I don't
know if they ever fully characterized the circumstances that can cause it,
but if it can make a compiler segfault, I don't see why it couldn't make a
kernel panic.  At least not without knowing more about what actually
triggers the bug...

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] [Maybe OT]: Instability of system

[john]

On Sun, 20 May 2018 23:20:36 +0100
Mick  wrote:

> On Sunday, 20 May 2018 21:54:32 BST Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> > Hello, Gentoo.
> > 
> > I'm having problems with my machine hanging or rebooting
> > spontaneously. It's doing this, perhaps, every three or four
> > weeks.  I think that when I'm in X, the system usually reboots,
> > when I'm on a tty, it hangs.
> > 
> > This phenomenon has, up till now, been just below the level at which
> > it's annoying enough to do something about.  But my machine just
> > hung on me a few minutes ago, and now it's definitely reached tha
> > threshold where spending effort fixing it seems justified.
> > 
> > My actual Gentoo installation is fine, in fact, so good that I've
> > not needed to post to the list for a long time.  :-)
> > 
> > My system is an AMD Ryzen processor on an Asus Prime X370-Pro
> > mainboard, and is just over a year old.  I don't think my RAM is
> > unstable (though it's been a long time since I've run that RAM
> > checking program).
> > 
> > I honestly suspect the firmware on the mainboard.  When it was new,
> > the board was practically unusable - with two sticks of RAM
> > installed, it would crash after about 1 - 3 minutes.  With just one
> > stick of RAM, it stayed up long enough to install new firmware
> > (version 0604), which appeared to be stable.
> > 
> > Going back to Asus's firmware page, there appear to have been many
> > subsequent versions of the firmware released during the last year.
> > Would it be a good idea for me to download and attempt to install
> > the latest version?  Is this in any way risky?  (My mains supply is
> > reliable.)
> > 
> > Other than that, suggestions as to what to do would be welcome.
> > 
> > Thanks!  
> 
Hello,

Interesting post.
Just read this and have same issue.
AMD Ryzen
X370 Asus motherboard

I seem to get issue roughly every two to three weeks where I get a
complete lock (Sys rescue keys dont work) or occasional reboot.

I personally think this is a ryzen/linux issue as I dual boot with
Windows and never had a problem there (for gaming purposes only).

Not much help but good to see I'm not the only one.

Think you'll be fine loading latest firmware as have done this but it
hasn't really helped.

John

Re: [gentoo-user] [Maybe OT]: Instability of system

[Wols Lists]

On 21/05/18 10:08, Mick wrote:
> PS. I use Corsair PSUs and always spend more on them to make sure it is not 
> the cheapest model.  A middle of the range modular unit comes with Japanese 
> capacitors and has not caused me problems in various builds.  In cheaper 
> models I've ended up replacing the capacitors without waiting for the PSU to 
> fail first - cheap PSUs always fail on me at the end.

And always check whether the power rating is INput or OUTput. The
cheaper brands might quote input to make it look like the psu is better
than it is. I'm sure I've come across a couple. Look for one that quotes
OUTput, and preferably is over-spec'd - the further it is from max
output (within limits) the better it will perform. Stick a 500W in a
computer that wants 350W, for example ...

Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] [Maybe OT]: Instability of system

[Corbin Bird]

On 05/20/2018 03:54 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> Hello, Gentoo.
>
> I'm having problems with my machine hanging or rebooting spontaneously.
> It's doing this, perhaps, every three or four weeks.  I think that when
> I'm in X, the system usually reboots, when I'm on a tty, it hangs.
---
> Other than that, suggestions as to what to do would be welcome.
>
> Thanks!
>
---
Lots of good suggestions already ... might want to check this as well :
.
The UEFI Memory Map
.
The Asrock mobo I have original came out certified for Win 8.1
Win 10 has a different UEFI memory map.
OpenRC re-triggers the "init" binary every 4 or 5 minutes, unless I put
"efi=old_map" in the kernel boot param.
.
( Linux/Gentoo, Kernel 4.9.x is looking for  Win 10 UEFI memory map. )
.
Compiling is a PITA with constant re-inits.
.
Corbin

Re: [gentoo-user] [Maybe OT]: Instability of system

[Mick]

On Monday, 21 May 2018 01:20:21 BST Dale wrote:
> Adam Carter wrote:
> > On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 8:35 AM, Dale  > 
> > > wrote:
> > Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> > > Hello, Gentoo.
> > > 
> > > I'm having problems with my machine hanging or rebooting
> > 
> > spontaneously.
> > 
> > > It's doing this, perhaps, every three or four weeks.  I think
> > 
> > that when
> > 
> > > I'm in X, the system usually reboots, when I'm on a tty, it hangs.
> > > 
> > > This phenomenon has, up till now, been just below the level at which
> > > it's annoying enough to do something about.  But my machine just
> > 
> > hung on
> > 
> > > me a few minutes ago, and now it's definitely reached tha threshold
> > > where spending effort fixing it seems justified.
> > > 
> > > My actual Gentoo installation is fine, in fact, so good that
> > 
> > I've not
> > 
> > > needed to post to the list for a long time.  :-)
> > > 
> > > My system is an AMD Ryzen processor on an Asus Prime X370-Pro
> > 
> > mainboard,
> > 
> > > and is just over a year old.  I don't think my RAM is unstable
> > 
> > (though
> > 
> > > it's been a long time since I've run that RAM checking program).
> > 
> > I ran memory checking overnight on my unstable (segfaults) AMD 8350
> > system, but no issues were found. Underclocking the RAM to the next
> > lowest speed completely addressed the issue. If i get keen i may
> > re-visit the RAM timing to see if it can be made to run stable at the
> > nominal frequency with more conservative settings on the other parameters.
> > 
> > If the firmware hasnt fixed it, the underclocking is cheap test, but
> > yeah power supplies seem to be problematic. I always buy branded ones,
> > but even then only had mediocre results.
> 
> In the past, I've had bad ram test OK with those tests.  When those
> tests say ram is bad, it seems to always be accurate but sometimes it
> doesn't catch a bad stick.  I don't know if it doesn't test the whole
> thing or what.  I read somewhere that it sets aside a certain amount of
> ram for the test program itself, after all it has to be in memory to
> run, so it doesn't test that part.  So, even tho it says they are good,
> it may not be certain.  It would make me consider other causes tho. 
> I've only had that happen a couple times. 
> 
> I'd run at the default settings first.  If it still does it, then you
> can go back to your custom settings after you fix the problem.  I
> thought about overclocking at one time but for what I do, it doesn't
> really matter much.  My puter spends most of its time waiting on me not
> the other way around.  I guess if someone has their system doing some
> number crunching, foldingathome or something then it may matter more. 
> 
> I have Thermaltake power supplies here.  It's not the best out there for
> sure but it is in spec and reasonable price wise.  Some of those el
> cheapos are cheap for a reason.  I bought a case once that came with
> one.  I only paid like $50.00 for the whole thing.  Given a bare case
> that was close usually costs around $40.00 at the time, they couldn't
> have spent much on the P/S.  I removed it first thing and put in a
> proper P/S.  The el cheapo made a good paper weight tho.  The best
> insurance tho is one that someone has tested.  You can still get one bad
> out of the box but it gives you better odds for sure. 
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-) 

I've had firmware updates causing problems like this (on Asus) only to be 
corrected with the next firmware update.  If with default settings your RAM is 
playing up, update the firmware and check again.  I tend to knock back the 
DRAM timings a bit on O/C'ed boards and this helps with stability.  It goes 
without saying if default settings give you an unstable system, you should not 
try overclocking it.  :-)

PS. I use Corsair PSUs and always spend more on them to make sure it is not 
the cheapest model.  A middle of the range modular unit comes with Japanese 
capacitors and has not caused me problems in various builds.  In cheaper 
models I've ended up replacing the capacitors without waiting for the PSU to 
fail first - cheap PSUs always fail on me at the end.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] [Maybe OT]: Instability of system

[Dale]

Adam Carter wrote:
> On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 8:35 AM, Dale  > wrote:
>
> Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> > Hello, Gentoo.
> >
> > I'm having problems with my machine hanging or rebooting
> spontaneously.
> > It's doing this, perhaps, every three or four weeks.  I think
> that when
> > I'm in X, the system usually reboots, when I'm on a tty, it hangs.
> >
> > This phenomenon has, up till now, been just below the level at which
> > it's annoying enough to do something about.  But my machine just
> hung on
> > me a few minutes ago, and now it's definitely reached tha threshold
> > where spending effort fixing it seems justified.
> >
> > My actual Gentoo installation is fine, in fact, so good that
> I've not
> > needed to post to the list for a long time.  :-)
> >
> > My system is an AMD Ryzen processor on an Asus Prime X370-Pro
> mainboard,
> > and is just over a year old.  I don't think my RAM is unstable
> (though
> > it's been a long time since I've run that RAM checking program).
>
>
> I ran memory checking overnight on my unstable (segfaults) AMD 8350
> system, but no issues were found. Underclocking the RAM to the next
> lowest speed completely addressed the issue. If i get keen i may
> re-visit the RAM timing to see if it can be made to run stable at the
> nominal frequency with more conservative settings on the other parameters.
>
> If the firmware hasnt fixed it, the underclocking is cheap test, but
> yeah power supplies seem to be problematic. I always buy branded ones,
> but even then only had mediocre results.


In the past, I've had bad ram test OK with those tests.  When those
tests say ram is bad, it seems to always be accurate but sometimes it
doesn't catch a bad stick.  I don't know if it doesn't test the whole
thing or what.  I read somewhere that it sets aside a certain amount of
ram for the test program itself, after all it has to be in memory to
run, so it doesn't test that part.  So, even tho it says they are good,
it may not be certain.  It would make me consider other causes tho. 
I've only had that happen a couple times. 

I'd run at the default settings first.  If it still does it, then you
can go back to your custom settings after you fix the problem.  I
thought about overclocking at one time but for what I do, it doesn't
really matter much.  My puter spends most of its time waiting on me not
the other way around.  I guess if someone has their system doing some
number crunching, foldingathome or something then it may matter more. 

I have Thermaltake power supplies here.  It's not the best out there for
sure but it is in spec and reasonable price wise.  Some of those el
cheapos are cheap for a reason.  I bought a case once that came with
one.  I only paid like $50.00 for the whole thing.  Given a bare case
that was close usually costs around $40.00 at the time, they couldn't
have spent much on the P/S.  I removed it first thing and put in a
proper P/S.  The el cheapo made a good paper weight tho.  The best
insurance tho is one that someone has tested.  You can still get one bad
out of the box but it gives you better odds for sure. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] [Maybe OT]: Instability of system

[Adam Carter]

On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 8:35 AM, Dale  wrote:

> Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> > Hello, Gentoo.
> >
> > I'm having problems with my machine hanging or rebooting spontaneously.
> > It's doing this, perhaps, every three or four weeks.  I think that when
> > I'm in X, the system usually reboots, when I'm on a tty, it hangs.
> >
> > This phenomenon has, up till now, been just below the level at which
> > it's annoying enough to do something about.  But my machine just hung on
> > me a few minutes ago, and now it's definitely reached tha threshold
> > where spending effort fixing it seems justified.
> >
> > My actual Gentoo installation is fine, in fact, so good that I've not
> > needed to post to the list for a long time.  :-)
> >
> > My system is an AMD Ryzen processor on an Asus Prime X370-Pro mainboard,
> > and is just over a year old.  I don't think my RAM is unstable (though
> > it's been a long time since I've run that RAM checking program).
>
>
I ran memory checking overnight on my unstable (segfaults) AMD 8350 system,
but no issues were found. Underclocking the RAM to the next lowest speed
completely addressed the issue. If i get keen i may re-visit the RAM timing
to see if it can be made to run stable at the nominal frequency with more
conservative settings on the other parameters.

If the firmware hasnt fixed it, the underclocking is cheap test, but yeah
power supplies seem to be problematic. I always buy branded ones, but even
then only had mediocre results.

Re: [gentoo-user] [Maybe OT]: Instability of system

[Dale]

Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> Hello, Gentoo.
>
> I'm having problems with my machine hanging or rebooting spontaneously.
> It's doing this, perhaps, every three or four weeks.  I think that when
> I'm in X, the system usually reboots, when I'm on a tty, it hangs.
>
> This phenomenon has, up till now, been just below the level at which
> it's annoying enough to do something about.  But my machine just hung on
> me a few minutes ago, and now it's definitely reached tha threshold
> where spending effort fixing it seems justified.
>
> My actual Gentoo installation is fine, in fact, so good that I've not
> needed to post to the list for a long time.  :-)
>
> My system is an AMD Ryzen processor on an Asus Prime X370-Pro mainboard,
> and is just over a year old.  I don't think my RAM is unstable (though
> it's been a long time since I've run that RAM checking program).
>
> I honestly suspect the firmware on the mainboard.  When it was new, the
> board was practically unusable - with two sticks of RAM installed, it
> would crash after about 1 - 3 minutes.  With just one stick of RAM, it
> stayed up long enough to install new firmware (version 0604), which
> appeared to be stable.
>
> Going back to Asus's firmware page, there appear to have been many
> subsequent versions of the firmware released during the last year.
> Would it be a good idea for me to download and attempt to install the
> latest version?  Is this in any way risky?  (My mains supply is
> reliable.)
>
> Other than that, suggestions as to what to do would be welcome.
>
> Thanks!
>


This is the type of problem that I hate having.  Intermittent problems
are hard to diagnose.  Just when you think you got it fixed, it does it
again.  The post from madscientist has some good info including some
things I've tried successfully in the past, with other peoples
computers.  The biggest culprit, dust on fans/heat sinks and sometimes
heat sinks just falling off of chips.  I've had that happen a few times
on those south bridge type chips.  Usually they are glued on and after
several years, they can pop off.  When they get hot, they slow down, a
lot, to protect themselves but make a computer very slow.  Stick the
heat sink back on, off it goes again.  Still, dust is a huge problem.  I
take a air hose to mine at least twice a year, spring time for sure to
be ready for summer heat. 

For the static, a finger trigger type spray bottle with water and a
small amount of fabric softener works well, smells good too.  I haven't
tried dish detergent like madscientist mentioned but if he says it works
and you don't have fabric softener handy, give it a try. 

As to upgrading firmware.  I have a Gigabyte mobo that has that dual
BIOS thing.  That said, I've never had to resort to the backup.  The
updates went smoothly and only took a few minutes.  If ASUS has
something similar, may want to know how to use it just in case.  The
biggest thing, not losing power during the update.  As madscientist
mentioned, a UPS comes in handy there.  In my experience tho, they have
always worked fairly well.  The biggest thing, now exactly what steps to
take before you start.  Mistakes could cause issues. 

You mentioned having problems with having more memory installed.  Was
the firmware upgrade supposed to fix *that* problem?  In other words, is
it a known issue that needed a fix?  I ask because of this.  Could it be
that your power supply, regardless of what rating it claims, isn't quite
up to standards and that little extra power causes issues?  It's
something to think about.  It's hard to know what power supplies are
really good or not.  Generally, I like to find one that has been tested
and known to be good.  I'll post links at the bottom just in case you
are interested. 

If you have checked the cooling and such, then it may be time for a
firmware upgrade if it is supposed to fix this type of problem.  I'd try
to rule out all else first tho. 

Some links that may interest you. 

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews=Review_Cat=13


https://www.tomshardware.com/t/power-supplies/

http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php/589708-Recommended-PSU-s-True-Tested


I think somewhere on the overclockers site there is a list of known bad
power supplies.  They are supplies that people have tested and they
failed, some in spectacular fashion.  Several included smoke and a few
some fireworks.  Several just had ripple/noise that was outside the
limits.  I think the first links has some of those listed too. 

I hope you find a solution soon.  Random things are aggravating. 

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] [Maybe OT]: Instability of system

[Mick]

On Sunday, 20 May 2018 21:54:32 BST Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> Hello, Gentoo.
> 
> I'm having problems with my machine hanging or rebooting spontaneously.
> It's doing this, perhaps, every three or four weeks.  I think that when
> I'm in X, the system usually reboots, when I'm on a tty, it hangs.
> 
> This phenomenon has, up till now, been just below the level at which
> it's annoying enough to do something about.  But my machine just hung on
> me a few minutes ago, and now it's definitely reached tha threshold
> where spending effort fixing it seems justified.
> 
> My actual Gentoo installation is fine, in fact, so good that I've not
> needed to post to the list for a long time.  :-)
> 
> My system is an AMD Ryzen processor on an Asus Prime X370-Pro mainboard,
> and is just over a year old.  I don't think my RAM is unstable (though
> it's been a long time since I've run that RAM checking program).
> 
> I honestly suspect the firmware on the mainboard.  When it was new, the
> board was practically unusable - with two sticks of RAM installed, it
> would crash after about 1 - 3 minutes.  With just one stick of RAM, it
> stayed up long enough to install new firmware (version 0604), which
> appeared to be stable.
> 
> Going back to Asus's firmware page, there appear to have been many
> subsequent versions of the firmware released during the last year.
> Would it be a good idea for me to download and attempt to install the
> latest version?  Is this in any way risky?  (My mains supply is
> reliable.)
> 
> Other than that, suggestions as to what to do would be welcome.
> 
> Thanks!

I have found with Asus their firmware releases tend to get more stable with 
time.  Initially they come out thick and fast before they gradually slow down 
and then stop, probably because they have moved their devs to later and 
greater models.  If I suspect the firmware, I always update it first before I 
look at other reasons.  However, first I have a look at the changelog.  Some 
updates are for functionality or peripherals I do not use/need.

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] [Maybe OT]: Instability of system

[mad.scientist.at.large]

First suspect the power line, brief surges/sags can do that( do you have access 
to a ups?).    

Is your' power supply near it's limits?  That can make power supplies rather 
sensitive.  

Could it be static electricity?  You can actually make a really good antistatic 
spray cheaply for any carpet etc.  Just get an empty spray  bottle, fill with 
water and add 1-2 drops of dish soap, this works really well though like any 
sprayed on antistat  you have to repeat occsionally (depends on traffic and 
carpet age, old carpet usually has enough ground in dirt to keep the static 
down).

Don't wear synthetics around computers (it's really dry here in colorado, even 
in summer often).

Could the processor heatsink etc. be dirty?(worth monitoring the temp).  i.e. 
the fan in the power supply.  also make sure all the fans are still spinning 
nicely.  power supplies sort of work for awhile without proper cooling, but 
they'll tend to overheat and shut down, assuming you have a good power supply.  
If you have one with "no agency approvals" then that's likely you're problem.  
Such supplies have no safety devices, no surge arrestors, no linefilerterin, no 
temp/power/short protection.  They radiate interference and have dirty, dirty 
outputs.  In any case you might try another power supply, they often get flakey 
with age and there are always some weak units in a production run.  You are 
using a grounded surge arrested power source?  Do you have a lot of lightning 
in your' neighborhood, it's that time of year.

Definately check all the power cables are in right as well as the graphics card 
and ram etc.  It's also worth checking the fan cables.  If the bios supports it 
see what the temp is and the fan speed, some bioses can provide some 
troubleshooting help.

It could be in response to something else in the house creating a surge or sag, 
to the extent possible it's worth thinking about what else is happening.  An 
airconditioner can cause all kinds of problems (they should always be on their 
own circuit).  Of course if you don't have air conditioning I'd suspect a heat 
issue strongly.

Also worth putting the parts of the system under high load with testing 
utilities to see if you can make it happen more often.

 A firmware issue would likely happen more often and consistantly.  Also, dred, 
run a smart tool on the hard drive though they usually don't cause reboot, just 
long hangs.

mad.scientist.at.large (a good madscientist)
--
>



20. May 2018 14:54 by a...@muc.de :


> Hello, Gentoo.
>
> I'm having problems with my machine hanging or rebooting spontaneously.
> It's doing this, perhaps, every three or four weeks.  I think that when
> I'm in X, the system usually reboots, when I'm on a tty, it hangs.
>
> This phenomenon has, up till now, been just below the level at which
> it's annoying enough to do something about.  But my machine just hung on
> me a few minutes ago, and now it's definitely reached tha threshold
> where spending effort fixing it seems justified.
>
> My actual Gentoo installation is fine, in fact, so good that I've not
> needed to post to the list for a long time.  :-)
>
> My system is an AMD Ryzen processor on an Asus Prime X370-Pro mainboard,
> and is just over a year old.  I don't think my RAM is unstable (though
> it's been a long time since I've run that RAM checking program).
>
> I honestly suspect the firmware on the mainboard.  When it was new, the
> board was practically unusable - with two sticks of RAM installed, it
> would crash after about 1 - 3 minutes.  With just one stick of RAM, it
> stayed up long enough to install new firmware (version 0604), which
> appeared to be stable.
>
> Going back to Asus's firmware page, there appear to have been many
> subsequent versions of the firmware released during the last year.
> Would it be a good idea for me to download and attempt to install the
> latest version?  Is this in any way risky?  (My mains supply is
> reliable.)
>
> Other than that, suggestions as to what to do would be welcome.
>
> Thanks!
>
> -- 
> Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).