Re: [gentoo-user] Straight from the horse's mouth
On Sun, 12 Aug 2012 05:52:11 -0400 Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org wrote: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2012-August/006066.html So, what is it going to take to convince Lennart that, contrary to what he thinks, he actually isn't the only human on the planet? I'd like to hear GregKH's take on this Well, we intent to continue to make it possible to run udevd outside of systemd. But that's about it. We will not polish that, or add new features to that or anything. OTOH we do polish behaviour of udev when used *within* systemd however, and that's our primary focus. And what we will certainly not do is compromise the uniform integration into systemd for some cosmetic improvements for non-systemd systems. (Yes, udev on non-systemd systems is in our eyes a dead end, in case you haven't noticed it yet. I am looking forward to the day when we can drop that support entirely.) Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. Plan B... toot... (blowing my own horn) https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mdev https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mdev/Automount_USB -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Straight from the horse's mouth
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 10:59 AM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, 12 Aug 2012 05:52:11 -0400 Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org wrote: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2012-August/006066.html So, what is it going to take to convince Lennart that, contrary to what he thinks, he actually isn't the only human on the planet? Take off all his mirrors? Cruel and unusual punishment, I know... Jorge Almeida
Re: [gentoo-user] Straight from the horse's mouth
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org wrote: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2012-August/006066.html (Yes, udev on non-systemd systems is in our eyes a dead end, in case you haven't noticed it yet. I am looking forward to the day when we can drop that support entirely.) Lennart I would love to see the day when I could have a udev-free system, and leave UDEV/Poetterix to the lennartings... Plan B... toot... (blowing my own horn) https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mdev Walter, I'm confused about the xorg stuff in the WiKi. It mentions the evdev driver as critical, but at the Notes at the bottom you say evdev need udev to be built. Can you clarify this? Thanks Jorge Almeida
Re: [gentoo-user] Straight from the horse's mouth
Hi Walter, can you expand on the LVM2 problem you mention on the MDEV page and/or a link if there is one on the status? I am building a new desktop (finally building as 64bit!) which will need lvm2 and after trying gnome3 for a couple of months on my existing machines, I have decided that its too unstable, too much of a resource hog and such a major productivity killer so its time to abandon ship. If I have to swim, I would like to use the opportunity to drop udev so I can avoid that train wreck as well. BillK On Sun, 2012-08-12 at 05:52 -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2012-August/006066.html Well, we intent to continue to make it possible to run udevd outside of systemd. But that's about it. We will not polish that, or add new features to that or anything. OTOH we do polish behaviour of udev when used *within* systemd however, and that's our primary focus. And what we will certainly not do is compromise the uniform integration into systemd for some cosmetic improvements for non-systemd systems. (Yes, udev on non-systemd systems is in our eyes a dead end, in case you haven't noticed it yet. I am looking forward to the day when we can drop that support entirely.) Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. Plan B... toot... (blowing my own horn) https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mdev https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mdev/Automount_USB
Re: [gentoo-user] Straight from the horse's mouth
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 11:30:51AM +0100, Jorge Almeida wrote: On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org wrote: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2012-August/006066.html (Yes, udev on non-systemd systems is in our eyes a dead end, in case you haven't noticed it yet. I am looking forward to the day when we can drop that support entirely.) Lennart I would love to see the day when I could have a udev-free system, and leave UDEV/Poetterix to the lennartings... Plan B... toot... (blowing my own horn) https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mdev Walter, I'm confused about the xorg stuff in the WiKi. It mentions the evdev driver as critical, but at the Notes at the bottom you say evdev need udev to be built. Can you clarify this? For some X11 configs (notably mine) it was necessary explicitly to configure evdev in xorg.conf. This used to work with, e.g., Gnome2. At a later stage, evdev suddenly required the udev USE flag to build. :-( This was taken account of in part of the web page, but not in the xorg description (which is now wrong). The change to evdev prompted me to stop using an mdev system, since I anticipated not having enough time to keep it working. (New job, and such like). The way certain developers are trying to force the world and his dog to use a rigid Red Hat specified configuration, I might be changing my time priorities. Thanks Jorge Almeida -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
Re: [gentoo-user] Straight from the horse's mouth
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Alan Mackenzie a...@muc.de wrote: On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 11:30:51AM +0100, Jorge Almeida wrote: I'm confused about the xorg stuff in the WiKi. It mentions the evdev driver as critical, but at the Notes at the bottom you say evdev need udev to be built. Can you clarify this? For some X11 configs (notably mine) it was necessary explicitly to configure evdev in xorg.conf. This used to work with, e.g., Gnome2. At a later stage, evdev suddenly required the udev USE flag to build. :-( This was taken account of in part of the web page, but not in the xorg description (which is now wrong). I feared so. I read somewhere this is because xorg now asks udev about the availability of evdev (writing from memory, can't find the reference). It seems to me an artifice to force usage of udev. Are these people all in league with each other? The change to evdev prompted me to stop using an mdev system, since I anticipated not having enough time to keep it working. (New job, and such like). The way certain developers are trying to force the world and his dog to use a rigid Red Hat specified configuration, I might be changing my time priorities. Is it possible at all to drop udev and still use xorg? Are the old (i.e., pre-evdev) drivers still usable? Even if they are, I bet all future developments will go the same way: force uniformity and submission. Jorge Almeida
Re: [gentoo-user] Straight from the horse's mouth
On 08/12/12 15:04, Jorge Almeida wrote: Is it possible at all to drop udev and still use xorg? Are the old (i.e., pre-evdev) drivers still usable? Even if they are, I bet all future developments will go the same way: force uniformity and submission. The old kbd and mouse drivers for X still work without problem here. Just set INPUT_DEVICES=keyboard mouse in /etc/make.conf and rebuild x11-base/xorg-drivers to get them. Then you can configure them as ever in your xorg.conf. Greetings Sebastian Beßler signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Straight from the horse's mouth
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 11:30:51AM +0100, Jorge Almeida wrote Walter, I'm confused about the xorg stuff in the WiKi. It mentions the evdev driver as critical, but at the Notes at the bottom you say evdev need udev to be built. Can you clarify this? I'll have to edit the wiki. The statement was probably correct when originally posted, but recent builds of xf86-input-evdev require =x11-base/xorg-server-1.10 built with the udev flag. *SOME* xorg input device drivers require xf86-input-evdev and therefore udev. I'm running a few machines fine without evdev/udev, and xorg.conf for that matter, under ICEWM. xf86-input-evdev may also be required by fancy desktop environments. Window managers like blackbox, fluxbox, FVWM, ICEWM, etc can be dressed up to look rather fancy, and use a lot less resources than GNOME/KDE/UNITY. -- Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org
Re: [gentoo-user] Straight from the horse's mouth
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 07:26:15PM +0800, William Kenworthy wrote Hi Walter, can you expand on the LVM2 problem you mention on the MDEV page and/or a link if there is one on the status? I am building a new desktop (finally building as 64bit!) which will need lvm2 and after trying gnome3 for a couple of months on my existing machines, I have decided that its too unstable, too much of a resource hog and such a major productivity killer so its time to abandon ship. I personally use ICEWM. It does the job, and I get an autohiding launchbar along the bottom. Thinking about this has inspired me to change my sig. See below. If I have to swim, I would like to use the opportunity to drop udev so I can avoid that train wreck as well. I've never used lvm so I'm the last person to ask. See http://www.gentoo-wiki.info/Unionfs-linuxrc which mentions lvm2 under mdev Alpine Linux is a server-oriented distro that uses mdev instead of udev. If anybody has gotten stuff running under mdev, it's them. See http://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/Setting_up_a_software_raid1_array for some hints. The article looks a bit old, so I don't know if it'll work for you now. If you get it running, please let me know, and/or update the wiki. I'm going on a little trip later this month, after I get back, I might just set up a dedicated test machine with all sorts of stuff like lvm2 on it. -- Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org I don't run desktop environments; I run useful applications
