Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[Ста Деюс]

Hi, Rich.


On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 16:03:48 -0400, among other, you wrote:

> > You should note that nobody with an @gentoo.org game is playing your
> 20 questions game either.

And that's OK.


Sthu.

Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[Peter Humphrey]

On Sunday 30 Jul 2017 23:19:11 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 22:03:45 +0100, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > > [...] point releases tend to contain manly bug fixes
> > 
> > That's all right then. As long as there aren't too many feminist ones...
> 
> That's because the men, in particular the husbands, are the ones always
> getting it wrong, so they have to provide the fixes...

"Time for bed," said Zebedi.

-- 
Regards
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[Peter Humphrey]

On Sunday 30 Jul 2017 23:19:11 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 22:03:45 +0100, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > > [...] point releases tend to contain manly bug fixes  
> >
> > That's all right then. As long as there aren't too many feminist ones...
> 
> That's because the men, in particular the husbands, are the ones always
> getting it wrong, so they have to provide the fixes...
> 
> -- 
> Neil Bothwick
> 
> If a man is standing in the middle of the forest speaking and there is
> no woman around to hear him - Is he still wrong?

Of course. How could any man doubt it?

-- 
Regards
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 22:03:45 +0100, Peter Humphrey wrote:

> > [...] point releases tend to contain manly bug fixes  
> 
> That's all right then. As long as there aren't too many feminist ones...

That's because the men, in particular the husbands, are the ones always
getting it wrong, so they have to provide the fixes...


-- 
Neil Bothwick

If a man is standing in the middle of the forest speaking and there is
no woman around to hear him - Is he still wrong?


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Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[Peter Humphrey]

On Sunday 30 Jul 2017 20:50:58 Neil Bothwick wrote:

> [...] point releases tend to contain manly bug fixes

That's all right then. As long as there aren't too many feminist ones...

-- 
Regards
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[Rich Freeman]

On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 5:03 AM, Ста Деюс  wrote:
>
> On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 22:07:31 +0100, among other, you wrote:
>
>>
>> This is what was asked for from the start, and as soon as you provided
>> it, several people identified a potential problem. It's no use saying
>> "this doesn't work" if you don't specify "this".
>
> I will not play in your wording game, sorry.
>

You should note that nobody with an @gentoo.org game is playing your
20 questions game either.

If you want help on a mailing list it helps to post as much info as
possible from the start.  If you're getting an error when running a
script is helpful to provide both the script and the exact error
message you're receiving.  You were asked for more info and see to be
determined to avoid giving it.

In my experience the people who are most likely to give you the most
helpful replies tend to also be the first people to hit mute on a
thread when the person asking for help seems determined to make this
as painful as possible.  They're not getting paid to help people out,
so cooperation goes a long way.

It is easy to get replies on a mailing list.  It is harder to get useful ones.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 16:03:06 +0700, Ста Деюс wrote:

> > Except it's not the same bash, you stated that they are different
> > versions.  
> 
> I do not suppose that versions, that differ just in .1 are too great
> for syntax. I may err, and may get into 0.1 % of probability that
> it is the case, but i doubt that it is so.

That's true, point releases tend to contain manly bug fixes, so a version
difference between the two systems could be critical if you script is
affected by one of those bugs.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

It is impossible to fully enjoy procrastination
unless one has plenty of work to do.


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Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[Ста Деюс]

Hi, Vadim.


On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 19:13:17 +0700, among other, you wrote:

> > > read 'Enter device (like /dev/sd(a1,b1,...): ' device  
> 
> AFAIK, this is not valid syntax for `read` in any shell (even on
> Debian. I just checked)

Now i see this too even on "Debian" and i can't explain that, since
code was first checked on "Debian", then moved to the machine for
"Gentoo" installation. where the errors first appeared. Now, both codes
are changed -- to still make automate the installation process of
Gentoo -- as i did not suppose to check the code here but only to get
some probably missing knowledge on Gentoo's bash and installation
environment of it.


Thank you for your time,
Sthu.

Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[Ста Деюс]

Hi, Peter.


On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 00:10:41 +0100, among other, you wrote:

> > > read 'Enter device (like /dev/sd(a1,b1,...): ' device
> > 
> > Until i remove the brackets, "Gentoo's" bash keeps error
> > messaging.  
> 
> Which brackets? They aren't matched.

I know, but i say what i see.


Thank you for your time,
Sthu.

Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[Ста Деюс]

Hi, Alexander.


On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 15:08:37 +0300, among other, you wrote:

> > Alright. Here is an example of the problematic line from the point
> of view of "Gentoo's" bash:
> 
> read 'Enter device (like /dev/sd(a1,b1,...): ' device
> 
> Until i remove the brackets, "Gentoo's" bash keeps error messaging.
> 
> 
> The line from your script above doesn't seem to have a matching right
> hand side bracket.

Not that i want to discuss the line and the script as whole, but as you
noticed...

Why it should contain corresponding bracket since it is not code but a
text string, more over non-interpolated? -- I can write within
apostrophes anything i want.

Again, bash complains about unacceptable identification, not the number
of brackets. So, corresponding number of brackets does not solve the
problem.

> Try running your script in trace mode like so, bash -x script, to
> further troubleshoot the issue.

Thank you for the point and time,
Sthu.

Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[Ста Деюс]

Hi, Neil.


On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 22:07:31 +0100, among other, you wrote:

> > > Mathematics (mother of computers) answers: 1+1=2. -- Meaning: same
> > script w/ the same bash gets same execution.  
> 
> Except it's not the same bash, you stated that they are different
> versions.

I do not suppose that versions, that differ just in .1 are too great
for syntax. I may err, and may get into 0.1 % of probability that
it is the case, but i doubt that it is so. Also, if i have found bug,
at least, there is no mention of the bug in the corresponding versions.

> > Alright. Here is an example of the problematic line from the point
> > of view of "Gentoo's" bash:  
> 
> This is what was asked for from the start, and as soon as you provided
> it, several people identified a potential problem. It's no use saying
> "this doesn't work" if you don't specify "this".

I will not play in your wording game, sorry.


Thank you for your time,
Sthu.

Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[Peter Humphrey]

On Saturday 29 Jul 2017 15:08:37 Alexander Kapshuk wrote:

> Alright. Here is an example of the problematic line from the point
> of view of "Gentoo's" bash:
> 
> read 'Enter device (like /dev/sd(a1,b1,...): ' device
> 
> Until i remove the brackets, "Gentoo's" bash keeps error messaging.

Which brackets? They aren't matched.

-- 
Regards
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 18:26:47 +0700, Ста Деюс wrote:

> > > How do you know that the contents of the script are not relevant
> > > when you  
> > don't know what the problem is? It is also useful to know the exact  
> 
> Mathematics (mother of computers) answers: 1+1=2. -- Meaning: same
> script w/ the same bash gets same execution.

Except it's not the same bash, you stated that they are different
versions.
 
> > version of bash in use on each system. There are subtle differences,
> > and bugs, between bash versions. Your script may be tripping up on
> > one of these.  
> 
> Alright. Here is an example of the problematic line from the point
> of view of "Gentoo's" bash:

This is what was asked for from the start, and as soon as you provided
it, several people identified a potential problem. It's no use saying
"this doesn't work" if you don't specify "this".


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Walking on water and writing software to specification is easy if they're
frozen.


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Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[Vadim A. Misbakh-Soloviov]

> read 'Enter device (like /dev/sd(a1,b1,...): ' device

AFAIK, this is not valid syntax for `read` in any shell (even on Debian. I 
just checked)

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Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[Alexander Kapshuk]

On Jul 29, 2017 12:27, "Ста Деюс"  wrote:

Hi, Neil.


On Fri, 28 Jul 2017 21:43:53 +0100, you wrote:

> > How do you know that the contents of the script are not relevant
> > when you
> don't know what the problem is? It is also useful to know the exact

Mathematics (mother of computers) answers: 1+1=2. -- Meaning: same
script w/ the same bash gets same execution.

> version of bash in use on each system. There are subtle differences,
> and bugs, between bash versions. Your script may be tripping up on
> one of these.

Alright. Here is an example of the problematic line from the point
of view of "Gentoo's" bash:

read 'Enter device (like /dev/sd(a1,b1,...): ' device

Until i remove the brackets, "Gentoo's" bash keeps error messaging.


Thank you for your time,
Sthu.

The line from your script above doesn't seem to have a matching right hand
side bracket.
Try running your script in trace mode like so, bash -x script, to further
troubleshoot the issue.

Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[Ста Деюс]

Hi, Neil.


On Fri, 28 Jul 2017 21:43:53 +0100, you wrote:

> > How do you know that the contents of the script are not relevant
> > when you
> don't know what the problem is? It is also useful to know the exact

Mathematics (mother of computers) answers: 1+1=2. -- Meaning: same
script w/ the same bash gets same execution.

> version of bash in use on each system. There are subtle differences,
> and bugs, between bash versions. Your script may be tripping up on
> one of these.

Alright. Here is an example of the problematic line from the point
of view of "Gentoo's" bash:

read 'Enter device (like /dev/sd(a1,b1,...): ' device

Until i remove the brackets, "Gentoo's" bash keeps error messaging.


Thank you for your time,
Sthu.

Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[R0b0t1]

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 8:53 PM, Rich Freeman  wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 9:44 PM, R0b0t1  wrote:
>>
>> Not to get away from OP's question, but how good would the installer
>> need to be before it held the interest of any developers that manage
>> the website or handbook?
>>
>
> That is hard to say.  I've been meaning to better integrate the
> systemd install guide into the main handbook for ages (to make it more
> like how various bootloaders are supported in the handbook/etc).  I
> just haven't gotten around to it.  Maybe now that I have a bit more
> time on my hands I will.  It sounds like EFI is in a similar
> situation.
>

For reasons unrelated to this problem I think it might be a good idea
to try to figure that out, because when I joined the mailing list
quite a while ago there were some discussions about nonresponsive
developers. I don't think anyone was being malicious, but if something
requires that other people be present then it is immediately less
likely to happen.

What is unfortunate, and that may have been happening in the cases I
remember, is that a developer was inadvertently given an obligation to
do something without anyone realizing they were given that obligation
- so then later someone wants to do something and they have to put
forth effort whether they want to or not.

> A lot of these docs end up being written as standalone docs to be read
> alongside the handbook, and they don't get integrated.  There is no
> reason that the handbook can't have branch points at the appropriate
> places.  In both the case of systemd or EFI there are probably only a
> few points where somebody has to do something differently so having a
> standalone guide just makes the process more confusing.
>

If I'm right the only reason this is happening is because the Wiki
articles are, like you later say, mostly inaccessible.

> There was a proposal the other day to switch these kinds of documents
> over to something other than pure Wiki markup to make it easier for
> users to contribute.  A wiki is nice in theory for user contributions,
> but the problem is that many pages are locked down so that normal
> users can't modify them, which defeats the purpose.  That means that
> it is actually harder for them to contribute, because they can't just
> fork a document and contribute a pull request.  It also makes it
> harder for devs to make big changes because we can't just work on them
> offline and get agreement before changing the main page.
>

My suggestion in this case is something that can render Markdown as
HTML. I find Markdown documentation very readable in either form. It's
also easy to track with Git and doesn't need any special tools besides
a text editor to manipulate. It looks like the Gollum Wiki
(https://github.com/gollum/gollum) project is a perfect fit. The
project is used by GitHub and has seen widespread deployment.

Will I be able to submit documentation PRs soon?

R0b0t1.

Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 9:44 PM, R0b0t1  wrote:
>
> Not to get away from OP's question, but how good would the installer
> need to be before it held the interest of any developers that manage
> the website or handbook?
>

That is hard to say.  I've been meaning to better integrate the
systemd install guide into the main handbook for ages (to make it more
like how various bootloaders are supported in the handbook/etc).  I
just haven't gotten around to it.  Maybe now that I have a bit more
time on my hands I will.  It sounds like EFI is in a similar
situation.

A lot of these docs end up being written as standalone docs to be read
alongside the handbook, and they don't get integrated.  There is no
reason that the handbook can't have branch points at the appropriate
places.  In both the case of systemd or EFI there are probably only a
few points where somebody has to do something differently so having a
standalone guide just makes the process more confusing.

There was a proposal the other day to switch these kinds of documents
over to something other than pure Wiki markup to make it easier for
users to contribute.  A wiki is nice in theory for user contributions,
but the problem is that many pages are locked down so that normal
users can't modify them, which defeats the purpose.  That means that
it is actually harder for them to contribute, because they can't just
fork a document and contribute a pull request.  It also makes it
harder for devs to make big changes because we can't just work on them
offline and get agreement before changing the main page.


-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[R0b0t1]

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 8:10 PM, Rich Freeman  wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 4:47 PM, Neil Bothwick  wrote:
>> On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 00:24:09 +0700, Ста Деюс wrote:
>>
>>> But something tells me the reason of absence of the installer are
>>> much deeper.
>>
>> Yes, it is that no one has felt the need to devote the considerable
>> amount of time needed to code and test an installer that takes into
>> account the far wider range of choices in Gentoo.
>>
>
> While there are some that consider the lack of an installer some kind
> of virtue, I think you've really hit the crux of it here.  There is no
> reason that Gentoo couldn't have an installer that at least gives you
> a default stage3 to start from, or a few alternative options.
>
> However, in the end it requires that somebody actually build it.  From
> what I've seen when this issue comes up people fall into two
> categories:
>
> 1.  People who really want an installer because they're struggling to
> get Gentoo working.  Well, if they struggle to get it working chances
> are they're going to struggle even more to build an installer for
> everybody else to use.
> 2.  People who could build an installer if they wanted to, but they
> don't really need to, because they either are happy with doing it
> manually, or already have some rough scripts that are good enough for
> them.
>
> Nobody is going to "ban" a Gentoo installer, and there have been
> points in time where people have worked on one.  However, until
> somebody actually both wants to build one and is able to build one we
> probably won't have one.  That isn't some kind of policy - it is just
> the reality of how volunteer FOSS projects work.
>

Not to get away from OP's question, but how good would the installer
need to be before it held the interest of any developers that manage
the website or handbook?

I ask because the much simpler thing I suggested - fleshing out the
handbook - has been done and redone by some individuals and some of
the guides are truly inspired. Unfortunately, I think it keeps being
redone because these guides are hard to find and because the people
who make them have no way to contribute to the handbook.

Sakaki's EFI install guide, while very specific, is something that the
majority of people who want to use Linux but don't want to maintain
Portage seem to expect from the handbook. It actually tells them how
to configure most of the things that produce a modern x86 system that
interacts with a user. I mention it because it is the only guide I'm
aware of that has persisted long enough to be indexed by Google that
is also still relevant.

The problem most people seem to have with Gentoo is not necessarily
the installation process, but knowing what to configure after they
have it installed.

R0b0t1.

Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 4:47 PM, Neil Bothwick  wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 00:24:09 +0700, Ста Деюс wrote:
>
>> But something tells me the reason of absence of the installer are
>> much deeper.
>
> Yes, it is that no one has felt the need to devote the considerable
> amount of time needed to code and test an installer that takes into
> account the far wider range of choices in Gentoo.
>

While there are some that consider the lack of an installer some kind
of virtue, I think you've really hit the crux of it here.  There is no
reason that Gentoo couldn't have an installer that at least gives you
a default stage3 to start from, or a few alternative options.

However, in the end it requires that somebody actually build it.  From
what I've seen when this issue comes up people fall into two
categories:

1.  People who really want an installer because they're struggling to
get Gentoo working.  Well, if they struggle to get it working chances
are they're going to struggle even more to build an installer for
everybody else to use.
2.  People who could build an installer if they wanted to, but they
don't really need to, because they either are happy with doing it
manually, or already have some rough scripts that are good enough for
them.

Nobody is going to "ban" a Gentoo installer, and there have been
points in time where people have worked on one.  However, until
somebody actually both wants to build one and is able to build one we
probably won't have one.  That isn't some kind of policy - it is just
the reality of how volunteer FOSS projects work.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 00:24:09 +0700, Ста Деюс wrote:

> But something tells me the reason of absence of the installer are
> much deeper.

Yes, it is that no one has felt the need to devote the considerable
amount of time needed to code and test an installer that takes into
account the far wider range of choices in Gentoo.

The other reason is that an automated installer would bypass the learning
process of installing Gentoo, and cause subsequent issues because you
have skipped that information.

There are hundreds of distros with automated installers. Gentoo is
different from other distros, and this is one of the differences. If you
want an installer that makes choices for you, try one of the
Debian/Ubuntu/Fedora derivatives.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Suicidal twin kills sister by mistake!


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Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 00:57:41 +0700, Ста Деюс wrote:

> > Can you attach to bash script you are running and the exact error
> > messages? It is hard to say (at least for me) without seeing it; bash
> > to bash portability issues are something I have never heard of. As a
> > guess there are a variety of options you can change while running in
> > the interpreter with the "set" command that can also be set in
> > configuration files or the command line. Also possible is that the
> > install CD contains a gimped version of bash, but typically then it's
> > not called bash. It could also be running it with "set -o posix" for
> > some reason.  
> 
> The script itself is of not interest -- it is just particulars -- that
> i can change even right on the target machine, though it is hard to do
> for many lines and w/o mcedit at least, not to say graphical editor --
> w/ the everywhere existing nano! :o)

How do you know that the contents of the script are not relevant when you
don't know what the problem is? It is also useful to know the exact
version of bash in use on each system. There are subtle differences, and
bugs, between bash versions. Your script may be tripping up on one of
these.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Press every key to continue.


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Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[Arve Barsnes]

On 28 July 2017 at 20:15, Mark David Dumlao  wrote:

> Gotta be honest here. I really don't think Gentoo is for you.
>
> If you don't understand why the exponential amount of work that it takes
> to be able to support each additional choice that Gentoo does is hard to
> codify into a single automated installer, I'm just going to say that this
> is going to be a hard point to get across.
>
>
>
>> Computers are all about automation, and
>> trivial process regarding its working should be automated. The best
>> approach would be checklists of checklists
>
>
> Let's just say that someone has to code and test all of the automated
> behavior behind every combination of checklist across every combination of
> package, and he's going to have a very thankless job, given that simply
> getting one combination of packages through a basic checklist might take an
> entire day if the compiler gods are kind.
>
> As an addition to this, gentoo is a meta-distribution. The process of
installing gentoo might be better understood in the context of creating
your own distro. Automating this has been tried before, but depending on
your point of view, this might or might not make sense to even try to do.

Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[Mark David Dumlao]

On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 1:24 AM, Ста Деюс  wrote:

> >> Why bash script (the install script), that works in "Debian", does
> >> not
> >> work on "Gentoo" install CD, giving me syntax errors (basically
> >> related to '(', ')' and ''')? In the script is the interpreter line
> >>
> >> #!/bin/bash
>
> > You say that line appears in both scripts, but is it the first line?
> > Unaccompanied and not preceded by anything?
>
> Yes, it is just a copy from "Debian".
>
> >> PS Why no semi/full -automatic install script/package in "Gentoo"?
>
> > It doesn't work that way. Gentoo is all about choice, and that
> > includes
> > choice of what is installed, and where and when. You have to make
> > those
> > choices. Even choosing what sort of system is installed (multi-lib,
> > hardened, synchronised via git or rsync, ...). All in the name of
> > flexibility and doing one's own thing.
>
> All those choices could be handled while auto install process -- just
> as other distro-s do, only with that exception, that the chosen
> packages are compiled first and only then get installed. At least, the
> "base" profile (just working kernel, package manager, network) would
> fit to get automatically installed "Gentoo" system leaving all the
> spectrum of choices behind installation process. -- I do not think it
> is wise to spend hours just to configure system before compilation
> process itself, reading all the time manual, even let be the
> truncated page of that manual.


Gotta be honest here. I really don't think Gentoo is for you.

If you don't understand why the exponential amount of work that it takes to
be able to support each additional choice that Gentoo does is hard to
codify into a single automated installer, I'm just going to say that this
is going to be a hard point to get across.



> Computers are all about automation, and
> trivial process regarding its working should be automated. The best
> approach would be checklists of checklists


Let's just say that someone has to code and test all of the automated
behavior behind every combination of checklist across every combination of
package, and he's going to have a very thankless job, given that simply
getting one combination of packages through a basic checklist might take an
entire day if the compiler gods are kind.


> -- similar to kernel's
> configuration, that once chosen, gets compiling, installing -- all
> automatically. There even sets like all is included -- to bother not
> for the unconcerned.
>
> But something tells me the reason of absence of the installer are
> much deeper.
>
> Sthu.
>
>


-- 
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Response needed:  [ ] yes  [ ] up to you  [ ] no
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Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[Ста Деюс]

> > and both systems contain bash, that interprets the script, why the
> > difference on syntax?
> >  
> 
> Can you attach to bash script you are running and the exact error
> messages? It is hard to say (at least for me) without seeing it; bash
> to bash portability issues are something I have never heard of. As a
> guess there are a variety of options you can change while running in
> the interpreter with the "set" command that can also be set in
> configuration files or the command line. Also possible is that the
> install CD contains a gimped version of bash, but typically then it's
> not called bash. It could also be running it with "set -o posix" for
> some reason.

The script itself is of not interest -- it is just particulars -- that
i can change even right on the target machine, though it is hard to do
for many lines and w/o mcedit at least, not to say graphical editor --
w/ the everywhere existing nano! :o)

I simply wonder the phenomena. And having not found the answer myself,
would ask more experienced users of "Gentoo".

> The installation process at its core involves preparing the disks and
> then extracting the stage 3 to them. Disk preparation can be
> exceedingly complicated and making an automated installer that
> supports all possible setups is pretty hard, only fairly recently have
> distributions like Debian been able to offer automatic setup of
> encrypted LVM volume groups. Some possible configurations (per PV
> keys) still aren't supported.

It is not always required. So, this part could be done manually still
whereas the rest -- automated, like usual installer does.

> The other part is creating a kernel. For that there is genkernel, but
> it just compiles everything in. I'm not sure that counts as
> configuration but it is automatic.

Again, nothing keeps us from using several commands to compile
customized kernel, starting w/

/usr/bin/make menuconfig

> I do think the handbook leaves far too many things out that normal
> users would need. I'm trying to compile a list of useful x86/PC
> related things to add to the handbook at some point, like useful
> default make.conf and portage options. There's also a lot of
> configuration files to sort through, documenting files of interest (if
> not providing some default configuration for them) is probably a good
> idea.

Of course! Best practical knowledge should be accumulated in the
documentation and included as default presets for the installation or
later system administration.

You remember, i did rise here question on profile customization? -- So,
i thought out that base profiled is too "thick" to be called base or
default. I think, only working kernel, package manager and network
-- speaking of installed and self booted system -- should be installed
and called base/default and from that base all other profiles grow.
Also, all those other profiles should not to be as next step to
develop and grow the installation, but checklists of packages
w/ corresponding checklists of the packages dependencies -- just like
"Debian" does for its compiled packages w/ that differences, that
choosing process will be followed not downloading and installation
only, but compilation also. -- These i call "all about choice", so that
user/admin had not to fight w/ the profiles that are totally
unnecessary at wide angle of view, but rather add some automation for
the lazy -- like client wants KDE suite -- alright, get it -- and so
forth. But for the concerned, are those checklists of packages -- when
everyone can choose what is desired likewise USE, CFLAGS -- all through
checklists, so that the user will not search the web for the well known
stuff, but right in the system configuration might see all that is
available w/ comments on what and why it does, as well as pros and cons
that follow the choices.

All this simplifies the process of installation and farther support of
systems. Nobody likes to wade through the oceans of routine but rather
make something fast, reliable, new, etc. But routine just scares away.


Sthu.

Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[Mick]

On Saturday 29 Jul 2017 00:24:09 Ста Деюс wrote:
> >> Why bash script (the install script), that works in "Debian", does
> >> not
> >> work on "Gentoo" install CD, giving me syntax errors (basically
> >> related to '(', ')' and ''')? In the script is the interpreter line
> >> 
> >> #!/bin/bash
> > 
> > You say that line appears in both scripts, but is it the first line?
> > Unaccompanied and not preceded by anything?
> 
> Yes, it is just a copy from "Debian".
> 
> >> PS Why no semi/full -automatic install script/package in "Gentoo"?
> > 
> > It doesn't work that way. Gentoo is all about choice, and that
> > includes
> > choice of what is installed, and where and when. You have to make
> > those
> > choices. Even choosing what sort of system is installed (multi-lib,
> > hardened, synchronised via git or rsync, ...). All in the name of
> > flexibility and doing one's own thing.
> 
> All those choices could be handled while auto install process -- just
> as other distro-s do, only with that exception, that the chosen
> packages are compiled first and only then get installed. At least, the
> "base" profile (just working kernel, package manager, network) would
> fit to get automatically installed "Gentoo" system leaving all the
> spectrum of choices behind installation process. -- I do not think it
> is wise to spend hours just to configure system before compilation
> process itself, reading all the time manual, even let be the
> truncated page of that manual. Computers are all about automation, and
> trivial process regarding its working should be automated. The best
> approach would be checklists of checklists -- similar to kernel's
> configuration, that once chosen, gets compiling, installing -- all
> automatically. There even sets like all is included -- to bother not
> for the unconcerned.
> 
> But something tells me the reason of absence of the installer are
> much deeper.
> 
> Sthu.

Following the manual, taking your time, reading/researching/deciding what you 
want to install, when and how, has the side-effect of imparting some specific 
Gentoo education.  I guess you could have a script do most of this for you 
with a lot of default options, but this would leave you pretty much with the 
level of knowledge you had when you started.  For some people this would be an 
inadequate level to keep a Gentoo system going for any length of time.

In any case, if you look at the Gentoo forums there have been a number of 
scripts over the years doing what you're after.  Perhaps one of those with a 
bit of modification would suit your needs.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[Ста Деюс]

>> Why bash script (the install script), that works in "Debian", does
>> not
>> work on "Gentoo" install CD, giving me syntax errors (basically
>> related to '(', ')' and ''')? In the script is the interpreter line
>> 
>> #!/bin/bash  

> You say that line appears in both scripts, but is it the first line? 
> Unaccompanied and not preceded by anything?

Yes, it is just a copy from "Debian".

>> PS Why no semi/full -automatic install script/package in "Gentoo"?  

> It doesn't work that way. Gentoo is all about choice, and that
> includes 
> choice of what is installed, and where and when. You have to make
> those 
> choices. Even choosing what sort of system is installed (multi-lib, 
> hardened, synchronised via git or rsync, ...). All in the name of
> flexibility and doing one's own thing.

All those choices could be handled while auto install process -- just
as other distro-s do, only with that exception, that the chosen
packages are compiled first and only then get installed. At least, the
"base" profile (just working kernel, package manager, network) would
fit to get automatically installed "Gentoo" system leaving all the
spectrum of choices behind installation process. -- I do not think it
is wise to spend hours just to configure system before compilation
process itself, reading all the time manual, even let be the
truncated page of that manual. Computers are all about automation, and
trivial process regarding its working should be automated. The best
approach would be checklists of checklists -- similar to kernel's
configuration, that once chosen, gets compiling, installing -- all
automatically. There even sets like all is included -- to bother not
for the unconcerned.

But something tells me the reason of absence of the installer are
much deeper.

Sthu.

Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[Peter Humphrey]

On Friday 28 Jul 2017 22:31:22 Ста Деюс wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> 
> Why bash script (the install script), that works in "Debian", does not
> work on "Gentoo" install CD, giving me syntax errors (basically related
> to '(', ')' and ''')? In the script is the interpreter line
> 
> #!/bin/bash

You say that line appears in both scripts, but is it the first line? 
Unaccompanied and not preceded by anything?

> and both systems contain bash, that interprets the script, why the
> difference on syntax?
> 
> 
> PS Why no semi/full -automatic install script/package in "Gentoo"?

It doesn't work that way. Gentoo is all about choice, and that includes 
choice of what is installed, and where and when. You have to make those 
choices. Even choosing what sort of system is installed (multi-lib, 
hardened, synchronised via git or rsync, ...). All in the name of flexibility 
and doing one's own thing.

-- 
Regards
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[R0b0t1]

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 11:14 AM, R0b0t1  wrote:
> The installation process at its core involves preparing the disks and
> then extracting the stage 3 to them.

Sorry, I forgot to add: This part, if you don't want anything special,
is maybe 3 lines or so; if you want something special then it might be
5-10 lines. That's still not a lot of steps.

Re: [gentoo-user] Why bash script, that works in "Debian", does not work on "Gentoo" install CD?

[R0b0t1]

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Ста Деюс  wrote:
> Hi.
>
>
> Why bash script (the install script), that works in "Debian", does not
> work on "Gentoo" install CD, giving me syntax errors (basically related
> to '(', ')' and ''')? In the script is the interpreter line
>
> #!/bin/bash
>
> and both systems contain bash, that interprets the script, why the
> difference on syntax?
>

Can you attach to bash script you are running and the exact error
messages? It is hard to say (at least for me) without seeing it; bash
to bash portability issues are something I have never heard of. As a
guess there are a variety of options you can change while running in
the interpreter with the "set" command that can also be set in
configuration files or the command line. Also possible is that the
install CD contains a gimped version of bash, but typically then it's
not called bash. It could also be running it with "set -o posix" for
some reason.

>
> PS Why no semi/full -automatic install script/package in "Gentoo"?
>

The installation process at its core involves preparing the disks and
then extracting the stage 3 to them. Disk preparation can be
exceedingly complicated and making an automated installer that
supports all possible setups is pretty hard, only fairly recently have
distributions like Debian been able to offer automatic setup of
encrypted LVM volume groups. Some possible configurations (per PV
keys) still aren't supported.

The other part is creating a kernel. For that there is genkernel, but
it just compiles everything in. I'm not sure that counts as
configuration but it is automatic.

I do think the handbook leaves far too many things out that normal
users would need. I'm trying to compile a list of useful x86/PC
related things to add to the handbook at some point, like useful
default make.conf and portage options. There's also a lot of
configuration files to sort through, documenting files of interest (if
not providing some default configuration for them) is probably a good
idea.

R0b0t1.